12 replies to this topic

[Graviton]

I would like to discuss about the interaction between C60EVOO and NR. Here are two studies that I know so far.

(1)http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24188530(It seems that, under light exposure, C60 and NADH(NAD+) interact, and then it appears to produce not only singlet oxygen(s) but also superoxide anion(s). This paper was mentioned by Turnbuckle in the http://www.longecity...e-6#entry778950, but it is not clear whether it is liposomal fullerene(lipid soluble fullerene usually dissolved in olive oil).

(2)http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11082711(This study concerns about the interactions between water soluble C60-PVP and NADH(or NAD+). It appears that this interaction may generate O2-(superoxides), but may also produce other reactive species which are concerning).

 

Other than personal and subjective experiences posted in the side effects thread, there are some theoretical rationales regarding C60 and NAD+ precursor interactions as above papers(maybe, we don't know its significance).

 

Even so, don't we already have NADH and NAD+ in our cells that have mitochondria for cellular respiration? Then, everyone who takes C60EVOO without taking NR would have the interactions between C60 and NAD+ anyhow because they already have natural level of NADH (NAD+) in their cells and plasma.

In this situation, taking NAD+ precursors will raise the NAD+ levels. In NR advertisement, 100mg of Nicotinamide Riboside raises about 33% of NAD+ while 300mg of Nicotinamide RIboside raises about 50% of NAD+.

Then, taking NAD+ precursors such as NR would amplify the negative interactions of C60 with NAD+ and its side effects corresponding to NAD+ increments by taken dosages. However, as mentioned, this interaction and side effects already exist even without taking NAD+ precursors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24360282 As demonstrated in the study, NAD+ declines with age and, if there are significant interaction concerns, would this translate that concurrently taking both C60EVOO and NR will result in lesser and lesser side effects in older individuals? As I know, in Baati's study, rats were given with C60EVOO starting from 20s(in young age) in human age translation, but it still increases the maximum lifespan somewhat by 90%.

Edited by Graviton, 12 July 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[AdamI]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11082711

 

It says "Visible-light irradiation of PVP-solubilized C60 in water in the presence of NADH as a reductant and molecular oxygen resulted in the formation of O2."

First everyone that know anything about C60 is that u shouldn't expose it to sunlight.

Also it says they mixed C60 in water not olive oil and then added NADH into that. So fail to see how this is relevant.

C60 is in olive oil and there is no presecent of Visible light irradiation in our body.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

They also say this "These results suggest that photoinduced bioactivities of the PVP-solubilized fullerene are caused not by 1O2, but by reduced oxygen species (O2.-, .OH) which are generated by the electron-transfer reaction of C60.- with molecular oxygen."

So they state that C60 InFact reduces oxygen species, which is very good. So c60 do¨n't create it, it reduces it. The opposite happen?!

[Graviton]

 

Also it says they mixed C60 in water not olive oil and then added NADH into that. So fail to see how this is relevant.

C60 is in olive oil and there is no presecent of Visible light irradiation in our body.

The reason why I added the example of water soluble C60 is that I would like to know general information of C60 and NAD+ interaction despite of the title "C60EVOO and NR".

The title was made for an example of the interaction that the concern begins with.

So, it may be better to revise the title with "C60 and NAD+ interaction". It can make someone confused if someone directly accept the title as a relevance.

Some cosmetic products contain water soluble C60. Hence, not only C60 saturated in oil, water soluble C60 might be applied to skin for cosmetic products users. Topical application of water soluble C60 may reach to dermis and can penetrate into veins. Hence, it can concern the interaction with NADH.

Edited by Graviton, 12 July 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[AdamI]

Have u seen the interview with the French scientist that studied C60 that Revgenetics did?

He says there that applying it on skin would be a very bad idea, since it interact with sunlight... so doubt that C60 interact with NAD+ just that C60 interact with sunlight and causes this free radical

[Graviton]

Have u seen the interview with the French scientist that studied C60 that Revgenetics did?

He says there that applying it on skin would be a very bad idea, since it interact with sunlight... so doubt that C60 interact with NAD+ just that C60 interact with sunlight and causes this free radical

However, there are many cosmetic products containing fullerene, and cosmetic companies advertise to have its benefits(unsure about these and not sure if these can be true)

See the below.

 

 

The keratinocytes were repeatedly irradiated with a visible light of wavelengths of 400-2000 nm (approximately 19,800 lux) in the presence or absence of Radical Sponge of 25-75 microM and did not exhibit any photo-cytotoxicity due to coexistent Radical Sponge as compared with the sham-irradiation control. ... Thus, Radical Sponge is expected as an anti-UVA-preventive agent without visible-light-catalyzed cytotoxicity toward human skin keratinocytes. (http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/16439118)

Here is the web-site that says about its properties according to them.(not sure if this can be true also). http://www.nanotechp...ge-r-fullerene/

Edited by Graviton, 12 July 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[AdamI]

C60 is called "Radical sponge" nowadays?

 

[Graviton]

C60 is called "Radical sponge" nowadays?

Possibly, it appears that Japanese scientist(s)/company called/named water-soluble C60 "Radical sponge".

Edited by Graviton, 12 July 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[AdamI]

Ukraine sent water souble C60 as a donation to Japan during the Fukushima problems to help the workers that was exposed to radiation. I'm guessing this japanses company is simple producing it under licens then?

[niner]

"Radical sponge" is a term for c60 that first appeared in the early 90's. It's not a formal name. It was a reference to the ability of c60 to absorb and stabilize free radicals.

[Turnbuckle]

From the OP:...don't we already have NADH and NAD+ in our cells that have mitochondria for cellular respiration? Then, everyone who takes C60EVOO without taking NR would have the interactions between C60 and NAD+ anyhow because they already have natural level of NADH (NAD+) in their cells and plasma....Then, taking NAD+ precursors such as NR would amplify the negative interactions of C60 with NAD+ and its side effects corresponding to NAD+ increments by taken dosages. However, as mentioned, this interaction and side effects already exist even without taking NAD+ precursors.

 

 

 

Now let's postulate that C60 + NAD+ is always a problem as the OP suggests, but the advantages of C60 generally outweigh the disadvantages except possibly for young people, also suggested by the OP. However, if we could lower NAD+ while taking C60, then more of the full power of C60 might be revealed. For instance, malate decreases NAD+ by a reaction mediated by malate dehydrogenase--

 

L-Malate + NAD+ <=> Oxaloacetate + NADH + H+

 

So perhaps the best protocol is to avoid niacin/niacinamide/NR and take C60 with magnesium malate.

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 29 July 2016 - 10:04 PM.

[Graviton]

 

 

... but the advantages of C60 generally outweigh the disadvantages except possibly for young people, also suggested by the OP.

 

The hypothesis(i.e. C60 and NAD+ interaction might cause some problems) still remains as a literally "hypothesis"(unproven claim)

 

In the originalBaati's study, rat was given with C60OO about in their 20s(translation to human age scale). If autophagy with chaperone is mediated for C60's part of longevity effect, then young age might have, in part, more advangtages for more LAMP expression.

(1) Would C60 and NR interaction occur in vivo?

(2) Would this interaction result in "good" or "bad" results in the end(not in the short term)?

(3) Would chronological taking both stuffs simultaneously(not acute dosing(s)) make ones adapt to its environments(pro-oxidants generation). In other words, would this make ones develop one's defense system?

 

Also, separating taking two stuffs about two days of intervals may not prevent the interaction between C60 and NAD+ precursors if any interaction side effects are known. C60oo half life is about two weeks, and also I don't think C60 would not fully take its derivative forms in two days.

Edited by Graviton, 30 July 2016 - 06:12 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

... but the advantages of C60 generally outweigh the disadvantages except possibly for young people, also suggested by the OP.

 

The hypothesis(i.e. C60 and NAD+ interaction might cause some problems) still remains as a literally "hypothesis"(unproven claim)

 

 

You quote me incompletely and find fault with it? I actually said, "Now let's postulate that C60 + NAD+ is always a problem as the OP suggests, but the advantages of C60 generally outweigh the disadvantages except possibly for young people, also suggested by the OP." The whole statement is a postulate, ie, a point to be accepted temporarily for the sake of argument. 

 

The possible problem with combining C60 and NAD supplements is indeed a hypothesis, based on a few anecdotal reports (including one by me). Even the idea that C60 might extend human lifespan is merely an hypothesis, and I'm not arguing it isn't.

 

Graviton: C60oo half life is about two weeks

 

 

If you have a source for this, I'd like to read it. I've not seen any paper stating what the active half life of C60 is in the mitochondria, nor what it is vis-a-vis any C60/NAD interaction. If it's present in some other part of the cell or in the spleen, that will probably have no interaction at all with NAD. According to the Baati paper, elimination is much faster than many here seem to think--

 

Nevertheless, the weakness of organ concentrations notably at D8 after 7 daily successive administrations of C60 dissolved in olive oil clearly shows that C60 molecules are eliminated from the organs in a few hours after both oral and i.p. administrations.

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 30 July 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Graviton]

 

 

You quote me incompletely and find fault with it? I actually said, "Now let's postulate that C60 + NAD+ is always a problem as the OP suggests, but the advantages of C60 generally outweigh the disadvantages except possibly for young people, also suggested by the OP." The whole statement is a postulate, ie, a point to be accepted temporarily for the sake of argument. 

... means there is something omitted in the quote, but the answer responds to the quote including omitted one.

 It might not be good to use the notation of ... if you felt uncomfortable. This is just to highlight the key points of the argument, not for offending something.

 

Anyhow, beside the speculation that high level of NAD+, while C60 is dosed, can(or might) hypothetically increase singlet superoxide anions, isn't it bad thing superoxide anions are observed in the presence of NADH(or NAD+)?  Isn't C60 works as SOD mimetic? This is puzzling, since, if C60 could quench the stressful oxidative chemicals in a scrificing manner, C60 is used up over its capability of scavenging activity?, or does C60 itself generate ROS as its own mechanisms?

 

Still, there are two different conditions in comparison to C60oo dosing(need to review again since these may not be right)

(1) C60 fatty acids adducts vs C60 particles

(2) Under UV irradiation vs Under normal conditions that C60oo is absorbed in light-deficient space