39 replies to this topic

[Mind_Paralysis]

Right, there's finally been a neuroimaging study of Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, or Concentration Deficit Disorder, if you like.

 

There's some clear evidence that response and activity in the Superior Parietal Lobe (e.g cortex) is impaired.

 

Now then - what kind of receptors are involved in this area? As I understand it, it might well be norepinephrinergic ones, but I'm not sure.

 

 

So, is it known if any substance, drug or activity increases signalling in this area?

 

What can one do, to enhance activity here?

 

This part of the brain is located in the top-back of the head, as can be seen in the linked study.
(figure 1a)

 

Parietal Cortex and Attention

http://home.gwu.edu/...ParietalCON.pdf

 

The ADHD-report: Research Findings 2015

http://guilfordjourn...ournalCode=adhd

 

"Of greater interest was the finding that the higher levels of SCT symptoms were associated with hypoactivity in the left SPL to cues in general."

 

 

Differentiating SCT and inattentive symptoms in ADHD using fMRI measures of cognitive control

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4474281/

 

 

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Digging up some studies on receptor-distributions and densities in the SPL... We're looking for studies of Broddman Area 5 and 7.

 

Transmitter receptors reveal segregation of cortical areas in the human superior parietal cortex: relations to visual and somatosensory regions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16054841

 

Convergent functional architecture of the superior parietal lobule unraveled with multimodal neuroimaging approaches.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25181023

 

"The two anterior subregions were found to be primarily involved in action processes and in visually guided visuomotor functions, whereas the three posterior subregions were primarily associated with visual perception, spatial cognition, reasoning, working memory, and attention."

 

 

What the flark is in that specific part of the brain?? And how does one increase general activity there? Well, other than attaching electrodes and a battery and flipping the on-switch.

[jack black]

Great minds think alike. I did see that study a couple of days ago when I was searching for SCT. However, i was not smart enough to figure out what it means, especially since the study didn't strictly separate SCT subjects from ADHD ones.

Googling for Superior Parietal Lobe gives me this: http://serendip.bryn...Farrenkopf.html

 

 

The baseline scans showed an "even distribution of activity throughout the brain," characterized by a large amount of activity in the posterior, superior parietal lobe and a moderate amount in the prefrontal cortex (Newberg 4).1

The subjects then meditated. When they reached the peak, they pulled on a string attached at one end to their finger and at the other to Dr. Newberg.2 This was the cue for Newberg to inject the radioactive tracer into the IV connected to the subject. Because the tracer almost instantly "locks" onto parts of the brain to indicate their activity levels, the SPECT gives a picture of the brain essentially at that peak moment (Newberg 3). The results revealed a marked decrease in the activity of the posterior, superior parietal lobe and a marked increase in the activity of the prefrontal cortex, predominantly on the right side of the brain (Newberg 6). Such changes in activity levels demonstrated that something was going on in the brain in terms of spiritual experience. The next step was to look at what these particular parts of the brain do. Studies of damage suffered to a region of the brain have enabled us to draw conclusions about its role by observing loss of function.

It has been concluded that the posterior, superior parietal lobe is involved in both the creation of a three-dimensional sense of self and an individual's ability to navigate through physical space (Journal 216). The region of the lobe in the left hemisphere of the brain allows for a person to conceive of the physical boundaries of his body (Newberg 28). It responds to proprioceptive stimuli, most importantly the movement of limbs. The region of the lobe in the right hemisphere creates the perception of the matrix through which we move.

Several studies allowed us to come to such conclusions about the parietal lobe. The first involved several Italians who suffered damage to the right side of the parietal lobe (Austin 246) (also Grobstein 5/3/01). A neurologist conducted a simple experiment wherein he asked the patients to describe from memory the piazza of their city as they stood at particular vantage points. The descriptions were normal except for the fact that the patients did not report any buildings that would stand to the left of them from any of the vantage points. Based on their responses, the doctor concluded that damage to this area leads to a disturbance of one's spatial perception. Another study involved a woman who suffered damage to both the left and right sides of the posterior superior parietal lobe. She was unable to use proprioceptive signals in order to position her body in space and to judge the location of objects in space (Stark 482).

 

Still not sure what that all means, except maybe meditations are not good for SCT?

 

This study was also of interest: http://behavioraland.../1744-9081-8-44

 

 

Compared with healthy controls, decreased ReHo was found in smokers in the right inferior frontal cortex and increased ReHo was found in the left superior parietal lobe (P < 0.01, 35 Voxels,Alphasim corrected).

 

Again, not sure what it means. Smoking is beneficial for SCT?

Edited by jack black, 17 July 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[jack black]

here is the interesting thing from https://en.wikipedia...parietal_lobule

 

 

associated with deficits on tests involving the manipulation and rearrangement of information in working memory, but not on working memory tests requiring only rehearsal and retrieval processes.^[5]

 

I noticed myself I have a superb retrieval of info when answering multiple choice tests, but did poorly on oral examninations when I had to recall facts and especially names in real time.  Written examninations were in between and not too bad if I had enough time to recall facts.

 

reference here: http://www.jneurosci...9/47/14980.long

 

Edit: after reading the reference, not sure how my anegdote for multiple choice vs verbal exam applies.

 

And finally to answer OP's question:

 

 

It has been shown in one study that working memory training increases the density of prefrontal and parietal dopamine receptors (specifically, DRD1) in test persons.^[70]

 

from https://en.wikipedia.../Working_memory and the reference https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19197069

Edited by jack black, 17 July 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Finn]

From The Brain and Behavior - An Introduction to Behavioral Neuroanatomy:

 

The right (nondominant) SPL is part of the posterior attention system. It is critical in selecting one stimulus location among many. It also disengages and shifts attention to a new target when appropriate (Posner and Dahaene, 1994; Chapter 12). The right side attends to stimuli in both visual fields and accounts for the fact that neglect is more severe following right parietal damage (Posner and Petersen, 1990). Norepinephrine input to the right parietal region is greater than to the left, and norepinephrine primes the cortical neurons during times of heightened arousal to react to novel stimuli (Tucker and Williamson, 1984). 

 

 

So norepinephrine it is I guess.

Edited by Finn, 17 July 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

   Great minds think alike. I did see that study a couple of days ago when I was searching for SCT. However, i was not smart enough to figure out what it means, especially since the study didn't strictly separate SCT subjects from ADHD ones.

    Googling for Superior Parietal Lobe gives me this: http://serendip.bryn...Farrenkopf.html



        The baseline scans showed an "even distribution of activity throughout the brain," characterized by a large amount of activity in the posterior, superior parietal lobe and a moderate amount in the prefrontal cortex (Newberg 4).1

        The subjects then meditated. When they reached the peak, they pulled on a string attached at one end to their finger and at the other to Dr. Newberg.2 This was the cue for Newberg to inject the radioactive tracer into the IV connected to the subject. Because the tracer almost instantly "locks" onto parts of the brain to indicate their activity levels, the SPECT gives a picture of the brain essentially at that peak moment (Newberg 3). The results revealed a marked decrease in the activity of the posterior, superior parietal lobe and a marked increase in the activity of the prefrontal cortex, predominantly on the right side of the brain (Newberg 6). Such changes in activity levels demonstrated that something was going on in the brain in terms of spiritual experience. The next step was to look at what these particular parts of the brain do. Studies of damage suffered to a region of the brain have enabled us to draw conclusions about its role by observing loss of function.

        It has been concluded that the posterior, superior parietal lobe is involved in both the creation of a three-dimensional sense of self and an individual's ability to navigate through physical space (Journal 216). The region of the lobe in the left hemisphere of the brain allows for a person to conceive of the physical boundaries of his body (Newberg 28). It responds to proprioceptive stimuli, most importantly the movement of limbs. The region of the lobe in the right hemisphere creates the perception of the matrix through which we move.

        Several studies allowed us to come to such conclusions about the parietal lobe. The first involved several Italians who suffered damage to the right side of the parietal lobe (Austin 246) (also Grobstein 5/3/01). A neurologist conducted a simple experiment wherein he asked the patients to describe from memory the piazza of their city as they stood at particular vantage points. The descriptions were normal except for the fact that the patients did not report any buildings that would stand to the left of them from any of the vantage points. Based on their responses, the doctor concluded that damage to this area leads to a disturbance of one's spatial perception. Another study involved a woman who suffered damage to both the left and right sides of the posterior superior parietal lobe. She was unable to use proprioceptive signals in order to position her body in space and to judge the location of objects in space (Stark 482).


    Still not sure what that all means, except maybe meditations are not good for SCT?


    This study was also of interest: http://behavioraland.../1744-9081-8-44



        Compared with healthy controls, decreased ReHo was found in smokers in the right inferior frontal cortex and increased ReHo was found in the left superior parietal lobe (P?<?0.01, 35 Voxels,Alphasim corrected).


    Again, not sure what it means. Smoking is beneficial for SCT?

 

Lol, I didn't figure it out from the actual study either! I had simply heard Dr. Barkley and other ADHD-researchers talk about it in the past, and when checking up on what's new this year from Barkley's slides, I found the newsletter where he explained the study - easy as pie then! ^^

I have spatial processing-issues as well - for instance, I'm always the SECOND WORST in my Karate-class - the only ones worse are the Autists with motor impairment - and they actually often get a bit better than me, in time - probably since they miss fewer sessions and can focus better on practising.

What I gathered from the meditation-study(s - I believe I saw some more...?) is that if we can actually focus enough to do proper meditation, it will, in time, improve attention. However, at least for me, until I get medicated, I'm going to be worse at meditating than nearly anyone alive. I try it now and then, but I actually get anxiety sometimes - if the conditions aren't perfect, the effort is too great - hence anxiety.

I can't draw any conclusions one way or another regarding the smoking-study - yeah, Nicotine increases attention, that's why snipers use it, and there's even a proposed attention-disorder based on disturbances in the cholinergic system - but the study also says that they suspect the increased Regional Heterogeneity could be linked to smoking-cravings as well.

That doesn't make much sense though, because it's the adHd-ers that are reward-sensitive, and found more often to be nicotine-abusers - us SCT-ers are PUNISHMENT-sensitive, and that's the complete opposite of nicotine-reward - there's actually an inverted u-curve regarding our disorder and addiction. We're not hoodlums, we're not addicts - that's part of the reason nobody notices us, or cares about us.


 

   here is the interesting thing from https://en.wikipedia...parietal_lobule



        associated with deficits on tests involving the manipulation and rearrangement of information in working memory, but not on working memory tests requiring only rehearsal and retrieval processes.[5]


    I noticed myself I have a superb retrieval of info when answering multiple choice tests, but did poorly on oral examninations when I had to recall facts and especially names in real time.  Written examninations were in between and not too bad if I had enough time to recall facts.


    reference here: http://www.jneurosci...9/47/14980.long


    Edit: after reading the reference, not sure how my anegdote for multiple choice vs verbal exam applies.


    And finally to answer OP's question:



        It has been shown in one study that working memory training increases the density of prefrontal and parietal dopamine receptors (specifically, DRD1) in test persons.[70]


    from https://en.wikipedia.../Working_memory and the reference https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/19197069

 

Sounds good at first, but it may not mean too much at all - remember how memory-training has failed to produce any cognitive benefits across the board? There's also the fact that the proposed D-receptor involved with SCT is actually D4 - a D2-like receptor, not D1. Increased D1 probably won't do us much good - for these particular symptoms, that is.

I seem to do well with immediate recall of data for testing as well - I've got a 10-day streak in Duolingo right now! And that works according to that theory. I'm not sure how I do with verbal exam though... Like you, I would say written exam is somewhere in-between.

    From The Brain and Behavior - An Introduction to Behavioral Neuroanatomy:


        The right (nondominant) SPL is part of the posterior attention system. It is critical in selecting one stimulus location among many. It also disengages and shifts attention to a new target when appropriate (Posner and Dahaene, 1994; Chapter 12). The right side attends to stimuli in both visual fields and accounts for the fact that neglect is more severe following right parietal damage (Posner and Petersen, 1990). Norepinephrine input to the right parietal region is greater than to the left, and norepinephrine primes the cortical neurons during times of heightened arousal to react to novel stimuli (Tucker and Williamson, 1984).



    So norepinephrine it is I guess.

 

EXCELLENT!

All right, that does line up with what Dr. Barkley has mentioned in the past, that neural damage to this region often involves treatment with norepinephrinergic drugs - much like damage to the frontal lobe involves treatment with dopaminergics.

Cheers for all of the great replies, folks! = )

All right... so... what can we gather here... Norepinephrinergics...

 

Is there any studies on what Adreno-receptors are present in this area? And are there any studies on the binding-profile etc, of some of the more obvious norepinephrinergics?

 

 

Atomoxetine

Duloxetine

Milnacipran

Viloxazine

Guanfacine

 

Are the one that seem the most interesting to me. Only two of those are used for treating attention though - Atomoxetine and Guanfacine - but that's because they've been shown to increase activity specifically in the PFC - but perhaps that's just a round-about way of treating SCT-symptoms.

 

So, what do the fMRI and PET-studies of the effects of these drugs show? Which parts of the brain do they affect the most?

 

Come on peeps... we're a bit closer now...

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 17 July 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Maybe I missed this, but isn't parietal lobe activity directly correlated with DLPFC activity? I might be making this up. I thought I saw a deep brain stimulation thing. I'm just saying we could be looking at a downstream effect or even a genetic correlation, not an upstream problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mind_Paralysis]

@Devinthayer: perhaps, the talk is that the problem is a parietal-frontal loop that is malfunctioning - and the parietal lobe in particular seems to show sub-activity. Intuniv supposedly has an effect on SCT-symptoms, and that is believed to be a drug that primarily effects the post-synaptic Alpha-2-a-receptors in the PFC, and then there's the fact that the D4-receptors are associated with the disease, and they are primarily populated in the PFC as well.

 

In contrast, ADHD is believed to be a Fronto-Striatal disorder, and interestingly enough, Borderline appears to be a Fronto-Amygdal disorder. (and NOT a PD as previously theorized - that theory was RUBBISH!)

 

However, this could also explain why stimulants have such a limited effect - if they primarily increase activity in the striatum and PFC, then that explains efficacy in ADHD - but if they don't increase Parietal activity, but only increase PFC activity... then they won't help with the core of the problems.

 

Now... there are adrenergic receptors in the SPL - so if there are any Alpha-2-a-receptors there, then it may well be affecting the core problems - however, I still haven't red any dramatic reports from SCT-ers from the combo of Intuniv and Vyvanse - only that it's better than the stimulants alone. But nothing as dramatic or profound as the effect that Stimulants have on ADHD-ers.

 

The efficacy just doesn't seem to be there. Say Vyvanse helps with... 35% of the problems - and then you add on Intuniv - helping with perhaps another 15 % - then that effect will still amount to nothing more than 50%

The reports on ADHD-problems, with a single compound, is more aking to 80-90%.

 

 

Likewise, Strattera is shown to increase frontal NE and DA, and global NE - which may amount to why it has a supposedly better effect on SCT-problems - but how does it do that? The problem with Atomoxetine is that it's a LETHAL drug - the side-effects are probably the worst of all ADHD-drugs, hence the reputation.

Now... that may be becase it's an SCT-drug, not an ADHD-drug, yet almost everyone who's given it, has ADHD - hence the lower effect and higher amounts of side-effects, hence the complaints. But considering how bad the side-effects are... we need to know if it increases activity in the SPL - otherwise, since many of us have anxiety, Strattera could litterally kill us.

 

 

Dunno' about you, but I'd feel a whole lot more daring to try Strattera, even with that skull on the packaging, if I just knew that it worked. We know that it works on the PFC... but this is a Fronto-Parietal disorder - DOES it work on the Parietal lobe...?

[thedevinroy]

Strattera works definitely for me. It works by increasing NE so much that it releases cortisol in the blood stream, correcting an imbalance in the HPA Axis that is known in both ADHD with and without hyperactivity. Most side effects have to do with titration, but there's some "side effects" of having a normalized brain like increased anxiety, irritability, etc. that I don't believe are side effects but just you as a person don't know how to deal with your new brain chemistry. You're mal-adjusted to having your adrenal gland working that responsively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thedevinroy]

http://www.cougarboa...html?id=1799914

Have fun with that one. My theory is that the parietal lobe is going to be stimulated most by stimulants (or noradrenergics) and the second most by some steroidal supplements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thedevinroy]

Here's another fun one:

 

Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17049170

Full Article: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2039899/

 

D-amphetamine abuse causes neuronal changes in transcriptions factors.

 

What is actually useful about that study is the transcription factors that it studies: "activity-regulated cytoskeletal protein (ARC), nerve growth-factor inducible protein A (NGFI-A), and nerve growth-factor inducible protein B (NGFI-B)"

 

Which means that these transcription factors may be important in parietal lobe activity (or maybe it was something they hadn't screened for).  Nonetheless, it's a lead...

[thedevinroy]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/10704519/

Full Text: http://www.adders.or...mb research.pdf

Edited by devinthayer, 19 July 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[thedevinroy]

This one is for schizophrenia:

http://www.nature.co...l/1300952a.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mind_Paralysis]

All right, so Strattera works, eh? For you that is - and Finn showed us that NE increases activity in the SPL a great deal, and Dr Barkley has mentioned that he thinks it's helpful.

The problem is the suicidality sideeffect and the dose-titration-sensitivity that this drug shows all the time - if stimulants are sledgehammers when all you need is an accurate hammer to put a pin in - then what is Strattera? A steamroller??

Btw, thinking back to cortisol - that's a glucocorticoid, yes? (Bare with me - i'm on a phone and I've got burn-out)

So, if excess global NE causes that, then could this be related to my other thread regarding the peculiar stress-response us SCT-ers have? And how prefrontal dopamine and ne-release was completely dependent on high amounts of stress?

Could it be... that Strattera actually triggers this high-octane mode through excessive NE? I can see how that would feel... less than pleasant to neurotypicals or the Adhd-ers, but for us... I'm actually growing more certain that we would be especially suited to endure this drug
- we've already faced this purgatory state of being hundreds of times - we can take it!!

If, we are being smart about it that is...


I have mutation to my cyp2d6 -pathway- it's almost non-existent which means that me dosing strattera will be difficult - slightest mistake and my levels will be way over the therapeutric window...! o.o The slightest mistake could trigger a suicidal episode in me, because I AM susceptible to those.

Well, you have at least convinced me to give it a shot at least. Let's see... I made a fairly conservative titration-schedule before, but schedule I need to compile now...! Need to think this through carefully.


Had we found any studies pertaining to pyritinol and SPL -activity? I believe one of you did actually - and that by stimulation somewhere in the brainstem it actually increased DA and NE! THAT is also the drug to report increases in processing-speed!

Exciting stuff... too bad it only lasts an hour or so.

[thedevinroy]

Strattera is a steamroller, and if you are susceptible to its metabolism and increase in suicidal tendencies, you may respond to small doses very well if and only if you are able to bring down your cortisol levels before going to bed. Apigenin is the active compound in chamomile responsible for its stress reducing effects. I believe it stimulates the metabolism of chatecholamines. Other herbs reduce cortisol and also promote sleep.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3683957/

Not calling you bipolar, but this effect might also be linked in other suicidal cases. If this is true, and you do tend to get more stressed at night, please take this advice to heart to help regulate yourself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thedevinroy]

An update on apigenin, about 500 mcg in 2g of parsley turns into 250 nM/L in the the human bloodstream. You're probably looking at 5 to 10 times that for a cup of chamomile if my math is right. So that's 1.25 to 2.5 micromoles. Huge affinity for opoid receptor antagonism but that's about it. At a certain level it becomes toxic to the blood cells, but that's after hours of exposure... And unlikely maybe even impossible to do on chamomile. Just saying that apigenin alone is not doing the work of chamomile. It's a combined effect of all the constituents.

Edited by devinthayer, 20 July 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Well, if it was to safe-guard against suicidal tendencies, then I am all for it.

Interesting note though - because I am not entirely certain about the differences - but after reviewing my tendencies, I find myself to charting more towards this effect:

 

Suicidal Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (S-OCD)

http://ocdfreedom.co...cidal-thoughts/

I.e, a form of OCD telling you that you must die, for... reasons - which are obviously not logical. It's a strange thing - I've never actually tried to commit suicide, even at my lowest - instead it's a form of either paralysing or extremely dysphorically stimulating sense of being - it's triggered by long exposure to stimulants or negative stimuli in myself. (i.e if I push myself to hard, like when I burn out, this surfaces quite quickly - I seem to push myself extraordinarily almost every time I try a new medication - some form of over-reaching.)

In essence it takes the form of me crying in bed or screaming while crying that "I must die!".

 

It does imply emotional instability, which does imply a disturbance of affect - yet I do not fit the profile for either Bipolar 1 or 2 (I have been tested by psychologists)  - and the few times I used antipsychotics they did improve emotional stability through blunting - but they also significantly impaired my cognitive abilities - in essence, I was more SCT than ever. I just didn't care any more.

 

 

What do we know about the mechanism through which Strattera causes anxiety and worsens such symptoms? Most that report it are ADHD-ers, and they have difficulties with dopaminergic circuitry. I'm trying to figure out if I should truly be as fearful of Strattera as I am - it could very well be an effect not relevant to me - as long as I take a four times lower dose than everyone else, that is.

[Dreaming_Strix]

Hello,

just registered to try to contribute exactly for this thread.
Have problems with learning and motivation from childhood (I am 37 now), self-diagnosed with SCT a couple of weeks ago, did some digging on what may fix that.
Found Strattera.
Now it's 6th day on Strattera (40 mg).
I think I never felt this good for 10 or maybe 15 years.
I am focused, I want to do anything to finish my tasks and little projects, and my rumination is almost gone!

I heard that many people do not feel good on Strattera right away (and are advised then to force themselves into it for at least two weeks for positive effects to kick in). That's not my case - and I hope (I PRAY) that it's not "placebo effect".
As for side effects:
- Strattera is known for causing urinary and sex problems. Well, I am experiencing benefits only in this field - my act is prolonged and erection is much better. No ED up to now
- regarding suicidal tendencies - I feel safe here. I NEVER had ones before, even during my depression period, and I am 100% sure that it would be sooo uncommon to me to think seriously about it, and I will be able to catch myself before doing something bad. I understand that I am probably wrong here but I am willing to take this risk.

My little history and some details are described here (same nick):
http://www.addforums...t=25541&page=33
I wrote there why I think I have SCT.

What I am taking now:
- Strattera 40 mg - 1x daily
- gingko 36 mg + some other components - 3x daily (morning, lunch, and ~16:00). Energises me great without over-stimulation.
- caffein - 3-4 espresso daily. I like it!
- L-thyrosine (Jarrow) - 500 mg twice a day, one as I get up (on emtpy stomach), one at approx. 15:30. I've literally got "high" (exactly as from cannabis) when I once took 2x500mg Thyro in the morning and high is not my purpose anymore.
- 5-HTP - 2x100mg in the evening, for better sleep.
- soy lecitine - apprx.2-4 grams daily.

I suspect that my cycle of action-and-reward does not work as expected, but until Strattera I just had no strength to spin this wheel in proper direction. Now I am paying much effort to my energy (I plan to strengten my sleep routine first and then to start exercise to get even more energy).

I never planned to use strong stimulants like amphetamines because I just know that it stimulates wrong part of me. On it, I think I will do improper things... faster.

There is another thing that literally triggered me in this thread: when Stinkorninjor wrote about punishment sensivity. That thing hits me so much. :( Parents, spouse, friends... I am so afraid of doing something wrong and be blamed for it that it literally cuffs my arms and legs :( But I hope to overcome it, in time.

I am not sure do I contribute anything positive in the thread?
Please let me know, cause I am also afraid of being annoying.

[jack black]

My little history and some details are described here (same nick):
http://www.addforums...t=25541&page=33
I wrote there why I think I have SCT.

What I am taking now:
- Strattera 40 mg - 1x daily
- gingko 36 mg + some other components - 3x daily (morning, lunch, and ~16:00). Energises me great without over-stimulation.
- caffein - 3-4 espresso daily. I like it!
- L-thyrosine (Jarrow) - 500 mg twice a day, one as I get up (on emtpy stomach), one at approx. 15:30. I've literally got "high" (exactly as from cannabis) when I once took 2x500mg Thyro in the morning and high is not my purpose anymore.
- 5-HTP - 2x100mg in the evening, for better sleep.
- soy lecitine - apprx.2-4 grams daily.

I suspect that my cycle of action-and-reward does not work as expected, but until Strattera I just had no strength to spin this wheel in proper direction. Now I am paying much effort to my energy (I plan to strengten my sleep routine first and then to start exercise to get even more energy).

I never planned to use strong stimulants like amphetamines because I just know that it stimulates wrong part of me. On it, I think I will do improper things... faster.

There is another thing that literally triggered me in this thread: when Stinkorninjor wrote about punishment sensivity. That thing hits me so much. :( Parents, spouse, friends... I am so afraid of doing something wrong and be blamed for it that it literally cuffs my arms and legs :( But I hope to overcome it, in time.

I am not sure do I contribute anything positive in the thread?
Please let me know, cause I am also afraid of being annoying.

 

Thanks for chiming in. I find the info very useful, because i'm still on the fence whether I have that SCT or not.

 

I'm not sure the official set of symptoms match my problems completely (quoted from your post on another forum):

 

 

V..Daydreaming excessively
V..Easily confused
V..Spacey or 'in a fog'
V..Mind seems to be elsewhere
V..Stares blankly into space
-..Slow moving or sluggish
V..Lethargic or more tired than others
V..Trouble staying awake or alert in boring situations
V..Underactive or less energetic than others
V..Sleepy or drowsy during the day
V..Gets lost in own thoughts
~..Apathetic or withdrawn, less engaged in activities
~..Loses train of thoughts
~..Forgets what he/she was going to say
~..Hard time putting thoughts into words
V..Processes information not as quickly/accurately

 

 

Now, the non-official description matches me very well, including the music, dancing, and mess.

 

 

according to Nander's list of symptoms from 2014 (found it interesting so I include it):

V..dislike almost any team sports
V..sports which are ok are: running, biking, swimming
V..morning/exam/social anxiety
V..you pause films often while watching them
V..you feel much better in the evening than in the morning. Sleep is not refreshing.
V..did you look for places in your work where you could take a nap? were you taking naps?
-..glass, transparent and reflexive materials in buildings make you tired. You prefer old-school brick or concrete buildings
V..in some particular days you feel no brain fog. These days are usually very windy.
V..working hard (e.g. for an exam) over a couple of days make you much easier to concentrate. But the effect lasts only 1-2 days
-..after taking THC in the evening, you can concentrate much better the next day
V..you often don't know what to say when someone asks you for an opinion
V..always indecisive (e.g. while buying clothes and shoes)
V..you tried many supplements
-..you scratch yourself often
V..you have troubles finding a partner (if you are male)
V..long and boring tasks which don't require any decisions are quite ok (i.e. you are not lazy and not depressed)
V..often late
-..you listen less music than other people

And for those syptoms, they are "No" just because I've worked to overcome it:
-..dancing is the worst kind of torture, extremely mentally tiring
-..you have piles of clothes in your room and a mess on your desk

 

So, not sure what to make of it.

 

I never took THC, so no comments here, and I never took any controlled stimulants.

 

As for self medication, I drink lots of coffee, tea, and use green tea extract when tired.

Other things I find that give me more energy are nicotine gum (i use it very sparingly), DMAE, piracetam, tyrosine, Vit B complex, methylB9, SAMe, and now memantine. I can't use them all together, as it makes me jittery and i'm trying to figure out the best combination. I need to try that gingko again, too. I actually have it, but was not sure if it helped me.

 

I just remembered I used to selfmedicate with overeating (especially carbs) and ketogenic diet felt like a major withdrawal (is it a sign of low serotonin?).

In case this is important, I also learn and think visually rather than verbally (I think this is more an Asperger's thing, right?). I definitively have that punishment sensitivity and sensitivity to criticism.

 

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Edited by jack black, 27 July 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Ey, welcome to the thread, Dreamingstrix! : )

Glad you found Longecity - and I am especially glad that you have begun treatment with Strattera! :D It really does seem to help people with our disorder.

Keep us posted on your Strattera-experience - and if Devinthayer could chime in with a comparison of his own early experience on Strattera, then that would be great.

You made me think about something regarding punishment-sensitivity though...

I am looking into using a Kappa-opioid-antagonist - to basically BURN AWAY the guilt and learned helplessness that I have aquired through the years. (The kappa-receptors control PUNISHMENT, while the other parts of the opioid network control pleasure)

But I actually think I read somewhere that Strattera has opioid-properties... Could this interfere with my latest plan? To increase Norepinephrine and when my strength returns, start a program to take apart my enhanced punishment-sensitivity.

Let's have a look at the opioid-aphinity of Strattera!

[Mind_Paralysis]

@Jack: Don't overthink it, dude. (Haha -I know, fat chance with this disorder, right?)

Almost no one fits the diagnostic criteria entirely, for any given psychiatric disorder.

And it wouldn't surprise me if you fit some of the ASD/Aspergers criteria either - commorbidity between neuropsychiatric disorders occurs fairly often.

I'd say you have SCT - remember, all you need is 6 or more symptoms. And considering how well you fit some of the other lists... you have a lot of symptoms.

Try and get a diagnosis for ADHD-PI mate - it's not quite right, but it's the only thing we have now. During the testing, your psychiatrist is bound to discern if you have ASD as well.

[jack black]

There is another thing that literally triggered me in this thread: when Stinkorninjor wrote about punishment sensivity. That thing hits me so much.

 

Like I said above, I have that too. Interestingly, when I searched for punishment sensitivity 2 conditions showed up: ADHD+ASD and SCT:

http://link.springer...0802-011-9547-x

http://www.sciencedi...092656613000949
 

[thedevinroy]

On Strattera, I get crazy side effects... So new guy is lucky. To drive the point home at just how lucky he is. Here is a long list of all the side effects I have experienced as a result of Strattera: heavy weight loss, social anxiety, tendency to freeze vs. fight/flight, fatigue, difficulty to forgive, negativity, irritability, nausea, crying easily, occasional dysphoria, massive amounts of pre-J with less than satisfying O's, rigid thinking, over stressing, lowered libido, hair loss, increased doubt and hesitation, but... It literally fixes everything else: better long term and short term memory recall, insanely acute working memory, no more shakiness, improved social skills, lowered impulsivity, more bills paid on time, greater empathy, wake up earlier, get to work on time, better composure, increased responsiveness to excitement and stimulation, better attention, extreme internal supervision, better navigational skills, ability to think several steps ahead, better coordination, self control, and how about actually looking and acting like you care about adulting?

Most side effects are over within a month, and the rest of the side effects are manageable via your new brain with increased capacity for self control and forethought, and the main effects get better with practice (also worse with neglect). You got to figure most of the mental side effects are in response to having a new brain with not much skill in how to use it at full capacity. The rest you just find a fix to manage your now regular stress levels.

Edited by devinthayer, 28 July 2016 - 02:44 AM.

[Dreaming_Strix]

I am looking into using a Kappa-opioid-antagonist

I guess learned fear should be connected to punishment sensitivity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17823306

So you may be right searching for KOR antagonists.

But I also found this:
https://www.reddit.c...time_in_adults/

> "4-OH-ATX was a partial agonist at kappa opioid receptors "
It may look like Strattera is kinda opposite of what you are looking for.
But I see that, for some reason, Strattera and Salvanorin A are mentioned in many threads related to KOR antagonists, in a way of "you take it first, then you stop it - and on withdrawal, you will get "significant mood lift" or "huge surge of motivation"".

I don't think that this method is really worth to try. Personally, I plan to deal with punishment sensitivity later - if it will not fade away - so maybe this will help me too.

[Dreaming_Strix]

There is another thing that literally triggered me in this thread: when Stinkorninjor wrote about punishment sensivity. That thing hits me so much.

 
Like I said above, I have that too. Interestingly, when I searched for punishment sensitivity 2 conditions showed up: ADHD+ASD and SCT:
http://link.springer...0802-011-9547-x
http://www.sciencedi...092656613000949

Got an interesting article:
http://journals.plos...al.pcbi.1004953

Maybe we all just... too adult?

In my case, Strattera gives some kind of protection from that guilt feelings and fear of punishment.
But it looks like it should be combined with good amount of psychological work (auto-hypnosis, affirmations, inner transformation... you name it) to be effective. There is no chemical rewiring on that I guess. :(

[Dreaming_Strix]

Here is a long list of all the side effects I have experienced as a result of Strattera:

Wow, thanks for sharing! Should be really hard time for you. And I agree, comparing the side effects with all the benefits, I guess I would do it anyway.

That's strange, but I already have some of these effects before taking Strattera These are: social anxiety, fatigue, difficulty to forgive, negativity, irritability, crying easily, occasional dysphoria, increased doubt and hesitation. And now I just seems to start to... forget about it

As for crying easily: I often had it in the mornings, e.g., I'm washing plates after breakfast, and all of a sudden, some thought gives me a sob/cry urge :( Or with sad songs, I just can't help myself crying for some songs. I know that there is nothing to be ashamed about, but it looks like tears are collected somewhere and that was some command "yes you may cry now". But why it is "collected"? I am trying not to hide my problems from myself, and my life is definitely not so sad so I think this should be a symptom of something wrong with my body.

As to fatigue - that was the thing that gave me a kick to try to do something with my body. So I found Strattera
But also I finally understood - the sleep is important. I had some problem with erection, and now I see that it was just my body's trick to not have sex and save the energy instead. I think part of my solution to re-energize myself was that I started to dive in bed not later than 23:00 (I have to get up at 7:00). Sleep MATTERS.

[Dreaming_Strix]

So, not sure what to make of it.
 
I never took THC, so no comments here, and I never took any controlled stimulants.
 
As for self medication, I drink lots of coffee, tea, and use green tea extract when tired.
Other things I find that give me more energy are nicotine gum (i use it very sparingly), DMAE, piracetam, tyrosine, Vit B complex, methylB9, SAMe, and now memantine. I can't use them all together, as it makes me jittery and i'm trying to figure out the best combination. I need to try that gingko again, too. I actually have it, but was not sure if it helped me.
 
I just remembered I used to selfmedicate with overeating (especially carbs) and ketogenic diet felt like a major withdrawal (is it a sign of low serotonin?).
In case this is important, I also learn and think visually rather than verbally (I think this is more an Asperger's thing, right?). I definitively have that punishment sensitivity and sensitivity to criticism.
 
Please keep us posted on your progress.

I cannot give any advice, of course. But maybe keto diet just did not provide you with enough carbs? I also felt fatigue when I was out of carbs, and I guess it is not good.
Now I am loosing weight, but that's because couple of months ago I felt I can eat everything that it "free and accessible" (pizza, muffins, cookies, candy - home and at work...). And now I am just trying to eat when I really hungry. So far it helps.

I am planning to decrease my coffee consumption because now I see that my fatigue problems connected partly to low sleep, partly to low NE (I just guess it), and partly to the fact that I do not have enough muscles I've got some gingko biloba mix in tablets instead (there are gingko, green tea extract, caffeine, flower pollen and - for some reason - dried onion ). That + enough sleep = energises me good!

You may also pay attention to piracetam. I know that there is a lot of people which like it, but it did not benefit me at all, and made me nervous and desperate instead. YMMV of course!

[thedevinroy]

http://www.m.webmd.c...-autisitc-brain

Seems like gray matter is useful in the parietal lobe and corresponds to IQ in normal children... But not in autistic children. Autism is an executive function disorder in the extreme end, but I would say that ADHD and even SCT/CDD to some degree have crossover in certain symptoms and therefore worth including on this thread. I know there are plenty of days where I get into very repetitive behaviors and lose track of time, so although IQ-wise (120 to 140, depending on the day) I don't really fall into this study, there is a lot of cross-over in the different executive function disorders that may be of note in bringing your brain up to par before you go and try to increase gray matter in a dysfunctioning part of the brain.

As to what receptor system that is, what co-factors and enzymes play a role in bringing the frontal parietal lobe up to a functioning level, I am unsure. What I would say is that it seems to be controlled by up stream process, as epilepsy in this region is rare despite it being an a brain region expressing high levels of glutamate neurons... IIRC.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23027096/

Edited by devinthayer, 29 July 2016 - 05:26 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Diagram of the brain, skip to slide 9 for a list of synonyms for this part of the brain to help leverage your google skills:

http://gablab.mit.ed...etal_Primer.pdf

Edited by devinthayer, 29 July 2016 - 05:30 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Cheers for the slides Devin. : ) I'll have a look at it when I'm not on mobile. (I actually had a look anyway, but can't absorb the data...)

I experience this "IQ-slide" as well btw! It used to be somewhat less dramatic than yours though - more like 15 sliding points: ~125-~140. Ever since last year though, I feel like I'm sliding a lot more.

It's almost as if the burnout in itself shaves off even more points... which could be related to trauma I guess. It's almost been proven to affect IQ in developing minds - i.e children (don't spank your kids, ok!)
but I know of no such correlation in adults. (in reality I saw a study, but I'm too tired to reference properly!)

You mention activity in the SPL being controlled by possible upstream processes - could this be the connection to the PFC?

This is the moment where I would like us to have a look at Pyritinol and Metadoxin again - they don't have an obvious effect on the SPL, but if I recall correctly, they both modulate cathecolaminergic synthesis.

What region of the brain was this again? It's fairly low in the overall brain-structure if I recall... somewhere close to the stem, or the reptilian brain...

Ok, here we go, down the rabbit-hole...

Pyritinol upregulates NMDA-receptors
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8450941

Hmm... can't really find any brainscan-studies or what-have-you, but at least I saw something about pyritinol increasing reaction-time, which is encouraging.