47 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

Venlaflaxine is a pretty potent SRI, and not too shabby of an NRI at the doses given. I will say that you should not take Zembrin or any other serotonin enhancing drug while in that particular drug or similar one. The fact that you smoked weed on an SSRI was absurd to me, and I hope you rethink your actions this time. There are plenty of warnings out there against that type of mixture. A little bit can go a long way, because as you know, there is plenty of synergy - maybe the parts greater than the whole when you consider the GABA downregulation causing an up in dopamine release with weed.

That said, had very good sleep last night for such a duration as I did. Though I did not sleep as much, it feels as if I did not have to. In addition, caffeine no longer gives me the shakes or the jitters, though I do require more of it than usual (probably upwards of a gram per day).



That almost concludes my experience on Zembrin. It definitely makes me feel more alive, though that may be due to its ability to reduce caffeine's side effects. With the combo, I feel more focused, creative, motivated, happy, productive, and confident.

As far as whether to go NMDA or dopamine route? Well, short bursts of high NMDA antagonist use are associated with an antidepressant-like effect, but only because of its disassociative effect. I don't condone the use of such methods outside a controlled medical environment. Partial antagonists like Huperzine or Magnesium tend to have a dulling effect, a reduction in stimulant side effects, and a greater ease to focus. They tend to enhance convergent behaviors and probably not something you are looking for.

Dopamine route seems more likely, but remember, you will be more sensitive to tolerance and brain damage from recreational use while on an antidepressant. Instead, surround yourself with great people - the best drug on earth. Short of that, a partial NMDA antagonist plus a stimulant or dopaminergic of sorts can enhance mood. A good example is Memantine - which has both properties, though since it has both effects, you can't really mix up the ratios of dopamine vs. NMDA activity. I guess just custom levels of caffeine and L-theanine might be your best bet.

Edited by devinthayer, 05 August 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[ThreeKings12341]

Wow thabks for this long post !

1)So if id go the dopamin route, lets say i forget about venlaflaxine and i only take wellbutrin.. Would that be alright?? Ssri plus dopaminergic antidepressant is a no go??

2)But i cannot get completely healthy only through taking caffeine and theanine! :( .. I have more negative symptoms: no libido, emotional blunted, lethargic, skin picking, no sadness just blunted everything but extremely., compulsive thjnking, bodydysmorphic disorder, ...Definitely more to add...

3)Is there a chance that an snri or srri bring me back to my old state?
Emotional blunting i had before taking the first time srris ..

4)So memantine is not good then?

5) theanine cannot be the only solution :-/ ...what do u think .else? - NAC helped me a lot to get my anedhonia away but was still emotional blunted for the rest of emotions... But the effect of nac is gone since stopping cigarettes or ending the hypomanic phase of taking nac for the first time because it weakend after 2 months taking... I dont know which caused it..

6) ahh and the day of heavy drinking i feel really released in my body .. Feeel emotional energy and everything .. - what do u think about this?


7) also to add.. I had ebv with 16, my doctor dont take my cortisol level seriously which would mean adrenal fatique imo and others.. , leaky gut and so on which my doctor is taking care about ..

[thedevinroy]

Wow thabks for this long post !

1)So if id go the dopamin route, lets say i forget about venlaflaxine and i only take wellbutrin.. Would that be alright?? Ssri plus dopaminergic antidepressant is a no go??

2)But i cannot get completely healthy only through taking caffeine and theanine! :( .. I have more negative symptoms: no libido, emotional blunted, lethargic, skin picking, no sadness just blunted everything but extremely., compulsive thjnking, bodydysmorphic disorder, ...Definitely more to add...

3)Is there a chance that an snri or srri bring me back to my old state?
Emotional blunting i had before taking the first time srris ..

4)So memantine is not good then?

5) theanine cannot be the only solution :-/ ...what do u think .else? - NAC helped me a lot to get my anedhonia away but was still emotional blunted for the rest of emotions... But the effect of nac is gone since stopping cigarettes or ending the hypomanic phase of taking nac for the first time because it weakend after 2 months taking... I dont know which caused it..

6) ahh and the day of heavy drinking i feel really released in my body .. Feeel emotional energy and everything .. - what do u think about this?


7) also to add.. I had ebv with 16, my doctor dont take my cortisol level seriously which would mean adrenal fatique imo and others.. , leaky gut and so on which my doctor is taking care about ..

I was totally addressing Kurko, looking back. My mind must have been moving too fast to notice who signed it and latched on to who it was addressed to. Sorry about the references to weed - they are probably not applicable to you.

Anyway, what I meant by taking an SSRI and dopaminergics was just to be careful during the initial phases of an SSRI, because your 5-HT receptors and 5-HT production haven't adjusted and found homeostasis. You could be over stimulating certain systems. Practically speaking with Welbutrin as an example, you could take the Venflaxine in the afternoon on a Friday and Saturday, then Welbutrin for the first time on Sunday morning. That way, you have two days to get used to it and the dose is spaced 8 hrs apart. Eventually, you can take them at the same time. My concern is mostly with the overuse of dopaminergics - like with drugs of recreational value (i.e., weed) and less to do with controlled doses of pharmaceuticals. An example would be serotonin toxicity from amphetamine use while on an SSRI. Amphetamine doesn't directly contribute to serotonin activity, but indirectly it does. If you glance at the 5-HT receptor wiki page for a minute, you'll see that serotonin is capable of as much stimulating as it is inhibiting neurons.

Again, I was addressing Kurko in that recommendation, as Kurko was needing what seemed to be more of a dopamine boost with an anxiolytic touch. Although contraindicated in libido enhancement, getting sounder rest on an SSRI or similar will help with the rest of the disorder. Maca is a pretty good libido enhancer... A little too good sometimes...

Never chase an old state. I don't care who you are or where you come from, life moves on, your body changes, and nothing is the same ever. Focus on an emotion you want, not a state, and then think how can I achieve that emotion? Do I need to now or can I plan for it? Can I use my imagination and concentration or do I need a snack or a nap? I'm sure you do that already. All I'm warning about is that you can't let a past experience be the standard for your future state. Optimal mood and cognition don't need to fit into a box - you need to measure by the lifestyle that best fits you or change your lifestyle. Pep talk over. Why do you want to feel emotionally blunted?

Memantine isn't good or bad - it is just hit or miss. For me it caused emotional blunting in some areas and heightened emotions in others. I got more enjoyment out of work, was more detail oriented, was braver, but I also was later to work and lost a bit of that chaotic youthful energy that's just a tad bit annoying. Very strange combo that worked well for my lifestyle, but as the company changed, their requirements of me changed, and I had to switch medication.

I don't understand your story of cigarettes and NAC. Are you saying that you took NAC for hypomania or to get hypomanic? I took it, and all it did was make my urine yellow and full of creatinine. ECigarettes brought me up when I was down and down when I was up, so in that case, theanine and caffeine is a pretty good solution. Noopept is pretty stabilizing like nicotine. Tastes like detergent, but for 10 minutes at 60mg, it is a golden way to calm down and wake up.

As far as drinking goes, the first few sips act on releasing sodium. Maybe your salt levels are screwed up? The heavy drinking part is GABA related. If you want to know if that's where your happy place is - in GABA land, you can take some valerian root and see where your happy place is at what dose. Direct agonism is a dangerous path a lot of people don't come back from, but increasing GABA production is less of an issue. Another way of increasing GABA while still promoting wakefulness is Ashwagandha... which most people don't take nearly as much as they should (2-6x the label in many cases).

Edited by devinthayer, 06 August 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Related to main thread: https://www.dailystr...sri-s-cause-cfs

[thedevinroy]

ThreeKings12341, if you had Mono, you still do and may be experiencing long term side effects as a result. PDE4 inhibition as well as other immunomodulating pathways might be a good route for you to take. Fish/algae oil is also required to keep your systems healthy and stable. Curcumin, garlic, Ashwagandha, even certain proanthocyanadins like Resveratrol or onions might help that aspect of it and provide relief that is atypical of a normal person.

Edited by devinthayer, 06 August 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Kurko]

Good evening everyone,

I received my box inositol yesterday. I tried high doses but unfortunately I did not feel any effect. Only discomfort in the stomach.

And when I see that nothing works on me I despair more. I losing money and mind simultaneously. My god I feel that this feeling of being empty will never leave. Time passes and I sink more.

 

 

Hi threekings12341,

sincerely if you know that your emotions are Blunt and you have anhedonia I don't recommend you the venlafexine. When I had taken this I feel like a true zombie.

after everyone is different, psychiatrist tell me that anhedonia is part of the depressive spectrum. I feel your pain my friend. I sincerely hope you will manage to get out of it.

Kurko

Nope havent tried st johns wort.. Wel i hae but not really longn and thats years ago..

U think that'd help?
What can u imagine i could try else which could work. U think the nmda route or the dopamin route???

At rhe moment (i started today because my doc says so ) venlafaxin

 

 

The effects of zembrin you describe are very promising. I want to try it but it makes me really to bother wasting money on something that gives me no benefit. the list of what I tried is long. and no one helped me. legal or illegal... :(

thank you very much anyway for all this posts that I read carefully.

That's a long and well thought out post by Ricah.

Regarding the effects of Zembrin. It was winding gown in my system last night when I noticed I was laughing more and feeling more connected to the characters on TV. After taking the half pill of Zembrin, I was silly like you are when you're a kid that's too laugh happy to go to bed. Maybe you can start alternating days at 1/2 a pill every other afternoon, then a 1/2 every afternoon, then alternating a whole pill and 1/2 pill, and then one full half pill per afternoon. This will help you avoid building too much in your system too quickly.

 

 

 

Yes i tried "St. John's Wort Extract; Standardized to 2% Hyperforin". Nortriptyline I really want to try but unfortunately not available in my country. Nortryptyline I really want to try but unfortunately not available in my country. I tried to low doses amitryptyline but its made me completely sedated which worsened my condition. Maybe at higher doses it might help. what I need is to be stimulated .

 

 

Make sure about that st. john's wort is an extract (not bulk plant, tea or smth like this) or some tincture with ethanol (sorry if i mistranslated tincture, hope you understand what i'm saying), otherwise it doesn't have any effect on CNS. Also, there're extract's standarized to hyperycin's or hyperforin's and it does matter. As i read in some article's and research, only hyperycin has the ability to upregulate receptors, hyperforin is responsible for blocking neurotransmitter's transporters etc.

Also, like in the case of using SSRI's, you have to give some time for receptors to upregulate (SSRI often needs 6 weeks or more), so 2 weeks isn't so much. And last, but not least, 900 mg is not high dose, as i said. This dose is usually used in research (but I seen even 1,8 g), but all the research was for antidepressant effect (no specified symptoms or smth), so we can't really tell where starts the proper dose for these purposes.

 

And about safety. Like i just said, I read research where used 1,8 g but nothing higher. In conclusion, it is well tolerated antidepressant, more than many any other known antidepressants and is stronger than placebo. But there comes case reports (I know it says nothing, but at least you don't have to worry that you're the first). To make matters worse, most of the them comes from people, that lost "magic" (they call it that way) due to abusing MDMA (some serotonergic, they believe it downregulate these receptors) so they're not so useful. Most of them used 6g of this substance and felt good, the effects were also nice (heard few times about cured anhedonia, so it is promising). But there were rare cases when it caused blurred vision or caused something bad with eyes, but it was temporarily and disappeared after some time by itself.

 

Yeah, 5-HT2c antagonists are pretty good idea, they should enhance the effect. But there're some problems with them, they're weak, expensive or unavailable. You have agomelatine, which is weak antagonist and is really expensive. Nortryptyline or amitryptyline, but they have many other mechanisms of action (H1 antagonism, NET&SERT inhibition, muscarinic receptors etc., but also 5-HT2a antagonism which is not beneficial in our case, also nortryptyline is a metabolite of amitryptyline). Many other drugs are inverse agonist rather than antagonists (for example mirtazapine) and it makes difference here. Tramadol which is narcotics. Fluoxetine, but it is stronger SERT inhibitor and also upregulates these receptors taken for long time.

Also heard about few natural antagonists - kudzu, rikkunshinto and amentoflavone (about third one i'm not sure, couldn't find any research about this).

 

 

Yeah, it was, I agree. But I bet that PhD is responsible for this (in my case too) and his lack of knowledge.

 

 

 

I will update my post a few hours.I feel completely exhausted.

I just wanted to say thank you to hugely to everyone who brings their help. People like you deserve everyone happiness.

Edited by Kurko, 06 August 2016 - 11:54 PM.

[Ricah]

You didn't read my post well. Hyperforin is responsible for inhibiting transporters (serotonin's, gaba's etc.) which won't give us result which we expect (it raises levels of several neurotransmiters). What you need is st. john's wort standarized to hypericin's (0,3% would be great). Only hyperycin upregulate these receptors (5-HT1, 5-HT2). If you want, try hypericin's instead of hyperforin's.

[Kurko]

I will see my psychiatrist tomorrow, he prescribed me Cymbalta but I did not take it because the drug is in the same class as the antidepressant Venlafaxine which worsened my condition.

I read a study showing that low-dose olanzapine may be effective in treating antidepressant apathy syndrome :

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12019662

 

I think I would try to talk to my psychiatrist and try a combo.

I'll keep you informed.

--

I have SJW the brand is Perika but it contains only Hyperforin I think. What brand you use?

 

 

You didn't read my post well. Hyperforin is responsible for inhibiting transporters (serotonin's, gaba's etc.) which won't give us result which we expect (it raises levels of several neurotransmiters). What you need is st. john's wort standarized to hypericin's (0,3% would be great). Only hyperycin upregulate these receptors (5-HT1, 5-HT2). If you want, try hypericin's instead of hyperforin's.

 

Edited by Kurko, 07 August 2016 - 02:24 PM.

[Ricah]

In my country there's Deprim Forte (OTC) which containts 20x 425mg extract standarized to 0,1-0,3% hypericins, but I doubt it will be available in your country. It's also pretty expensive if you want to try higher doses.

Now i ordered some extract from China via aliexpress (0,3% hypericins 200g for 19~$, shipping is free). Seems legit, but don't know quality of the product for sure.

 

Look at reddit, there's a list with vendors that should be reliable. But if you want to order from iherb, there are plenty of other products that you can try, for example (hope you won't treat this as a advertise)

http://www.iherb.com...Veggie-Caps/790

http://www.iherb.com...80-Tablets/1424

Just be sure about standarized to 0,3% hypericin's, they're writing this in description usually. But again, keep in mind to avoid Sun if you're taking st john wort.

 

Heard about olanzapine too. I'm curious what is so special in this drug to be better than any other atypical antipsychotics for making people more active and treating symptoms like ours.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Take one drug to help one psychiatric issue and end up with at least another one that is less treatable. That's what I call irony.

[sentics]

what you guys are writing about zembrin is really intriguing. can you recommend a source (preferrably in europe, but might be hard)

[thedevinroy]

what you guys are writing about zembrin is really intriguing. can you recommend a source (preferrably in europe, but might be hard)

In summary, I take half a 25mg pill at night of the Source Naturals version and then lots of caffeine the next day (500mg to 1200mg over the course of the day depending on how early vs. late you took it). Got it at Vitacost, and it looks like it is all they have for a brand name, and honestly, I've only ever seen it produced by Source Naturals. It was $25.33 plus S&H for me. Definitely an expensive herbal medicine, but once you know how to use it... The freedom to goof off and be a little more fun is quite nice.

[ThreeKings12341]

thanks devinthayer

so how would i fix my sodium levels?


well nac had an antidepressant effect on me.. and made me euphoric and hympomanic...
and drinking a lot of alcohol gives me my emotions back on the next day with euphoria.. u know which path i can go then? nmda,, dopamin? u mentioned gaba.. but nmda (glutamte receptor) or dopamin???



and can i also just use (gaba) from pure enc. (brand). or valerian root is better?


hope u will find a solution !! u have any updates for us?

Edited by ThreeKings12341, 12 August 2016 - 03:43 PM.

[thedevinroy]

thanks devinthayer

so how would i fix my sodium levels?


well nac had an antidepressant effect on me.. and made me euphoric and hympomanic...
and drinking a lot of alcohol gives me my emotions back on the next day with euphoria.. u know which path i can go then? nmda,, dopamin? u mentioned gaba.. but nmda (glutamte receptor) or dopamin???



and can i also just use (gaba) from pure enc. (brand). or valerian root is better?


hope u will find a solution !! u have any updates for us?

Fix your sodium by taking a multimineral and some extra potassium. Drink plenty of water and avoid vasopressin-promoting agents like anti diuretics (i.e., too much calcium).

GABA doesn't cross the BBB. Valerian root is a good alternative. Some find it a nootropic for the day time. Personally, I use Hops for daytime anxiolytic nootropics. Lemon Balm is super strong, so if you take that, get a small dose, and take it at night. Picamilon is a good GABA precursor that crosses the BBB. Ashwagandha has some GABA promoting effects, and it also ups dopamine production, so just take enough to get 50mg of withanolides or else you'd just on a maintenance dose.

[Kurko]

Good evening,

 

Small return after a few months.

I tried mirtazapine for 1 month. I felt worse. Only a slightly improved libido.

I tried after low dose lamictal but it did not help.

 

negative ruiminations are always present. I'm always focused on my body on my mind.no imagination no excitement

 

The feeling of well-being I dont know what is it since many years now.

not even the achool make me happy I felt worse on it. Nothing works.

 

Maybe the NSI 189 can help me, but after so many failed drugs it's hard to believe it.

 

I am completely lost but I remain hopeful.

[Kurko]

Hello,

I come back to you after several months. Since last time I tried the NSI189 and Kratom to see the effects. Unfortunately for NSI-189 I tried doses between 20 and 80mg for 3 weeks but I had no improvement on my anhedonia and my cognitive abilities. I just feel like I have a different consciousness /vision but no effect of well-being or mental stimulation. It's the same for Kratom, I do not feel any euphoria or sense of well-being. I just feel disconnected. For anxiety the two made it worse.

My thought and reasoning are confused. And days after days im worse. Since then, I suffer from spasm at the neck and muscle weakness. My sleep is not very good but I have lucid dreams all the time . I bought CBD to vaporize but it does not change anything either on anxiety or on sleep.

I try to meditate but it is very hard to be concentrated and to understand.

I have no personality, no opinion, no spontaneity, no emotions, no empathy. The impression of being totally empty.

 

I feel like I live an endless nightmare I tried everything from legal to illegal.

I'm lost I do not know what to do.

[jaiho]

Keep taking NSI-189. It's effects wont be seen fully until 4-6 weeks.

Add an MAOI like moclobemide or parnate. Meditate & exercise.

[jaybird10 2]

Jaiho W

Whats your zoloft and nortriptalyne doseage?

Edited by jaybird10 2, 03 June 2017 - 01:07 AM.