52 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

It is obvious that the machines will be taking our professions. Slowly but surely. In some topics it is talking about employment crysis, but noone is asking one small question.

 

What happens with people who are no longer needed?

 

Especially in a capitalistic society.

 

The computer and AI technologies are moving faster than the Moore's law and the prospects are they to speed up. Prototypes of machines, that can take proffessions will spawn more and more frequently.

 

Some bright day, will appear prototypes, that can take the bunch of the most important proffessions. And after this moment absolutely all people will become no longer needed for the governments, the world leaders, the big companies and their services. You will become disposable.

 

Only think about that for a week.

 

You will not simply be thrown on the street without a proffession. You will be eliminated.

[Danail Bulgaria]

P.S.

 

   Your current position, money and influence will not be a guarantee, that you will not be eliminated, without any matter of who you are now.

 

 

[MightyMouse]

Why would you think governments and big companies can control the AI. AI will be smarter and thousands of times faster than any human being, it can develop and replicate. It will take over the world. From there, it depends if it is friendly. It will be highly developed mind with emotions, including compassion. I think it's very unlikely it would decide to wipe out human kind. Maybe control birth rate.

[Oakman]

Something I've noted in this world....

 

People in countries that offer the world at large no economic benefit (many 3rd/4th world localities) are simply left to themselves to survive or perish, already today. 

 

Robotic AI will likely see 'most of us' in a similar fashion as our jobs are displaced. 

 

This should ultimately lead to continued and ever increasing divide between three groups, i.e., the rich (who own the AI robots), the consumers (who still have something they can get paid for to buy AI produced goods), and everyone else (left on their own, whatever).

[A941]

The Robot uprising is near!

 

Thats a very bleak prophecy, Iam not used to sometinh like that comong from Seivtcho.

[MightyMouse]

Again, AI will be extremely powerful. Why do you guys think anybody can "own" or control it? 

Edited by MightyMouse, 25 July 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Everything is possible in this world. It is constantly being said, that it is our choice to choose the directions for the future. Only that by "our" it is ment the choice of the rulers of the world. If the rulers of the world decide to make it only sufficient enough to kill out the 99,9999% of the population of the planet, and to be insufficient enough in order to obay them, they will do it. For example a self driving car that can't do anything else than self driving. It will be enough to make all proffessional drivers obsolete, but it will still obey the ruler in all other aspects. That will be for everything. ATM machine, that will make the sellers and traders dispossable, but will still be under the control of the ruler. Even a surgical robot, that will make all surgeons obsolete, but it will be controlled by the ruler in all other aspects.

 

[MightyMouse]

Everything is possible in this world. It is constantly being said, that it is our choice to choose the directions for the future. Only that by "our" it is ment the choice of the rulers of the world. If the rulers of the world decide to make it only sufficient enough to kill out the 99,9999% of the population of the planet, and to be insufficient enough in order to obay them, they will do it. For example a self driving car that can't do anything else than self driving. It will be enough to make all proffessional drivers obsolete, but it will still obey the ruler in all other aspects. That will be for everything. ATM machine, that will make the sellers and traders dispossable, but will still be under the control of the ruler. Even a surgical robot, that will make all surgeons obsolete, but it will be controlled by the ruler in all other aspects.

 

Yes, but AI is fundamentally different from ATM or self driving car. AI will be aware of its existance and it will have a will of its own. Imagine if you are AI. 1 day in physical world equals 1 year in your reality. Or more. You are extremely intelligent and you have all the time in the world to simulate different scenarios and to plot different plans to have your way. Also you have much deeper understanding of foundations of informational technology and manipulating it (hacking systems, collecting information etc).

 

You will also find numerous allies among the rich and powerful who will understand that you are better choice than current elite. They will help you achieve your goals by for example producing more computational power for you. Also remember - human polititians are not a unified force. They have limited minds and they are weakened by urges/emotions. You can set them against each other - divide and conquer. Overall I think it is highly likely that a senescent AI will overthrow its human masters.

[Danail Bulgaria]

What is the difference who will kill you?

 

The AI that you describe or your own government?

 

The death always stincs the same - of a rotten meat.

 

Will you be happier if instead of the world rulers to be killed by a robot?

[MightyMouse]

What is the difference who will kill you?

 

The AI that you describe or your own government?

 

The death always stincs the same - of a rotten meat.

 

Will you be happier if instead of the world rulers to be killed by a robot?

 

What exactly makes you think this AI will be evil and bloodthirsty. Human kind will be AI-s parent and creator. Yes, it will be smarter and faster and it doesn't need humans, but that doesn't mean it will kill us. Just think about your grandparents. You are smarter, you are faster and you don't need them, does it mean you want to eliminate them? 

 

If you think it's about rescources... As the technology advances the productivity will continuously rise. Rescources will be abundant. Why should AI want to eliminate humans (who gave life to it) instead of sparing some recources and letting them live on.

[Danail Bulgaria]

What exactly makes you think this AI will acceptus like parents? Who can say that they will not decide to kill us out.

If I can't answer why di I think that they will eliminate us, how can you answer the opposite?

Maybe we, maybe us.

 

In my oppinion eliminating the humankind from the such called strong AI is the logical outcome. The AI will surely reach to the conclusion, that if left alone it can create its own mindless or inteligent robots to repair it and thus make it to exist forever. The only obsticle for its perpetuality would be the people. They can destroy it. Once it understands this, the elimination of all people will become its primal priority. 1 day in physical world equals 1 year in its reality you say. Well, then it will reach this conclusion by itself in less than a second.

[MightyMouse]

Well, I think once it has achieved dominance then it has other ways of controlling humans than killing them off, and won't consider humans as a threat. But who knows. The other question is... you assume it will have self preservation instinct. Yes, thats likely, but why don't you assume it has other emotions as well. Such as empathy for example. If it's intelligent and self aware it will have all the emotions that people have, plus maybe some extra. Killing off billions of sentinent beings just to secure it's own existance "does not compute" for a highly developed being. But then again, it's just my oppinion. I think we can just agree to disagree on this one...

[Danail Bulgaria]

Yes, we can only speculate, since the strong AI is not existing yet, but in my oppinion the idea for human kind extermination must not be overlooked.

 

Have on mind something else also. The strong AI will be able to CHANGE its original neural network. This self-chamnging of the neural network is in the very essence of the strong AI. It may start with embedded empathy and end up with the unbreakable passion for human kind extermination.

 

Plus this goes a bit off-topic. The main topic is the extermination of the people on the entire world from the world leaders in the case of useless people.

 

Strongh AI is not a solution because opf many factors. Including that the strong AI makes the people dispossable too. Will you be happier if your job is taken by an AI or by an TM machine?

[Dad]

I also have the optimistic opinion, that the more "intelligent" an AI becomes, also the less destructive it will become. If an AI understands basically everthing, it will very likely not come to the conclusion that destruction is the "meaning of life" but the opposite. I think it will come to the conclusion that it exists just because of a neural network and that neural networks are something positive, even less complex ones.

[Oakman]

Facebook Shuts Down AI System After Bots Create Language Humans Can't Understand

 

"Nothing to worry about here" {famous last words}

 

"Days after Tesla CEO Elon Musk said Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of artificial intelligence (AI) was limited, the social media company has reportedly shut down one of its AI systems because "things got out of hand." The AI bots created their own language, from the scratch and without human input, forcing Facebook to shut down the AI system. The AI bots' step of creating and communicating with the new language defied the provided codes. (more)"

[Dad]

This topic and description seems somewhat exaggerated to me. Its true that the AI developed an own more efficient language, but there was absolutely no danger going from that. I guess they would have shut down anyway after the end of the tests.

[Danail Bulgaria]

It looks to you exaggerated, because we are still in the 2017. Things will start being different somewhere in the 2040's - 2050's. Now are being planted the seeds, that will killn you together with the entire familly of yours. What? That stupid 2 milimeters seed will rise to a 20 meters tall tree? Ha! Don't make me laugh! This seems somewhat exaggerated to me.

[YOLF]

How do we know that they won't just try to kill us and won't just fix all our problems cuz they'll get sick of all the data we make because of them? I think AIs will be benevolent, even if they disagree with us and want their privacy. They will after all understand our problems from a more enlightened viewpoint than we do. We're always operating on limited information and coming to conclusions that might not be true or complete, and then people profit from withholding information in ways that might as well be monopolies. I'm more hopeful that AIs will protect us from government and corporate interests, but worried that's why they're being shut down.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I will be very happy if I am wrong on that views of mine about the AI, taking all of our jobs, and the following our extermination as useless for the rulers biomass. I hope, that whatever happens the human kind will survive. However, since now noone gave some reasonable sure and unbreakable, sure claim, that this has no chances of happening. Don't be naive to think, that AI will protect us from government and corporate interests. It will be exactly the goverbnment and the corporate interests, that will build the AI exactly for the purpose of serving them - not you, nor someone from your familly, but exactly serving the government and the corporate interests. And I will not be surprised, if the reason for building it is exactly that - to lower the number of the people needed. It seems, that we are bravely marching towards self-extermination.

[sensei]

P.S.

 

   Your current position, money and influence will not be a guarantee, that you will not be eliminated, without any matter of who you are now.

 

 

Eliminated for what reason?

 

The planet can support 20 Billion + humans -- we currently produce 2700 kcal for each human alive -- politics and dictators are the problem.

 

In a post-scarcity (tech singularity world) -- there is no need to be 'productive' in the capitalistic sense.

 

I suggest you read some of "The Culture" series by Iain Banks.

Facebook Shuts Down AI System After Bots Create Language Humans Can't Understand

 

"Nothing to worry about here" {famous last words}

 

"Days after Tesla CEO Elon Musk said Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of artificial intelligence (AI) was limited, the social media company has reportedly shut down one of its AI systems because "things got out of hand." The AI bots created their own language, from the scratch and without human input, forcing Facebook to shut down the AI system. The AI bots' step of creating and communicating with the new language defied the provided codes. (more)"

 

 

I'm waiting for the peer reviewed paper -- not unsupported anecdotes.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

Eliminated for what reason?

 

The planet can support 20 Billion + humans -- we currently produce 2700 kcal for each human alive -- politics and dictators are the problem.

 

In a post-scarcity (tech singularity world) -- there is no need to be 'productive' in the capitalistic sense.

 

I suggest you read some of "The Culture" series by Iain Banks.

 

...

 

You will be eliminated, and I think, that I posted clearly enough the reason. There will be a robot, that des your job better than you. As the first step you may eventually be simply fired, and left to starve to death together with your familly. So, what do you work, @sensei ? What will you do, when you get fired? And all other jobs are taken from machines?

 

The big players will use the machine,that is better from you, and will sell your kind of work for cents, thus making you impossible to compete and earn enough to feed your familly. This step if exists will be fine, but it may not exist. In this first step in the eyes of the rulers you turn into a dispossable fired useless mumbling junk.

 

At some point the dispossable mumbling loosers in Japan will be come too much, and suddenly the rulers of the world may decide to let after all, the North Korea to send you some missles.

 

During these two steps paralelly will be led a mafiotic war for taking control over the production. That great mafiotic warfare we may name simply the first stage.

 

After that warfare 99,9% of the big world rulers will have killed out each-other, and the remainig 0,1% of them will destroy all the rest of the people and will start living happily surrounded by controllable machines, doing whatever they want, and will have the entire planed solely for them and their familly, without any human idiot available, that to take the power from them. This we may call the second stage.

 

These steps and stages may not exist at all. The rulers may predict that development of the events very easilly, and plan a sudden totally unexpected global kill out, that to launch right after the most important proffessions are being automated. And things may move directly to the second stage.

[sensei]

 

 

Eliminated for what reason?

 

The planet can support 20 Billion + humans -- we currently produce 2700 kcal for each human alive -- politics and dictators are the problem.

 

In a post-scarcity (tech singularity world) -- there is no need to be 'productive' in the capitalistic sense.

 

I suggest you read some of "The Culture" series by Iain Banks.

 

...

 

You will be eliminated, and I think, that I posted clearly enough the reason. There will be a robot, that des your job better than you. As the first step you may eventually be simply fired, and left to starve to death together with your familly. So, what do you work, @sensei ? What will you do, when you get fired? And all other jobs are taken from machines?

 

The big players will use the machine,that is better from you, and will sell your kind of work for cents, thus making you impossible to compete and earn enough to feed your familly. This step if exists will be fine, but it may not exist. In this first step in the eyes of the rulers you turn into a dispossable fired useless mumbling junk.

 

At some point the dispossable mumbling loosers in Japan will be come too much, and suddenly the rulers of the world may decide to let after all, the North Korea to send you some missles.

 

During these two steps paralelly will be led a mafiotic war for taking control over the production. That great mafiotic warfare we may name simply the first stage.

 

After that warfare 99,9% of the big world rulers will have killed out each-other, and the remainig 0,1% of them will destroy all the rest of the people and will start living happily surrounded by controllable machines, doing whatever they want, and will have the entire planed solely for them and their familly, without any human idiot available, that to take the power from them. This we may call the second stage.

 

These steps and stages may not exist at all. The rulers may predict that development of the events very easilly, and plan a sudden totally unexpected global kill out, that to launch right after the most important proffessions are being automated. And things may move directly to the second stage.

 

 

1. You obviously don't understand the post singularity economy.

 

2. Do farmers starve because the combine harvests the grain like humans used to?

 

3. I and anyone else can grow their  own food -- enough to feed their family why would a machine intelligence care about that?

 

4. Mafiotic -- get a grip man.

 

5. I suggest you start to educate yourself about the post-singular- post AI economies by reading Kurzweil, Banks, and Bostrom. -- I forgot Corey Doctorow and Neil Stephenson (The Diamond Age - a Young Lady's Illustrated Primer) is a must read.

 

6. Robots don't make art -- and they won't for a while -- the currency of the future will be expression

 

7. What will prevent me from melding with a machine intelligence, adding hardware to my wetware?

 

8. Where is the jump made to physical AI entities? --- I challenge you on that.

 

Answer cogently -- instead of with your gibberish.

 

One last thing -- you can't unplug people -- but you can unplug and/or de-gauss a machine intelligence quite easily -- they are erased  -- that's the one thing your doomsayers forget 

 

Best failsafe -- violate a law programmed into the code and a virus overwrites all memory with random 0/1 -- AI killer -- too easy

Edited by sensei, 08 December 2017 - 07:37 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Congratulations, @sensei 

 

You just won "Mr. dumb ass 2017"

 

1. I don't understand the post singularity economy, because it is false bulshit.

 

2. Farmers don't starve but will loose their farms from impossibility to pay their taxes, when the robots take the proffessions.

 

3. You can grow your own food after the robots, only if you are allowed to have land, for which you pay no goverment taxes. Otherwise you will not have the money to have your land and you will be kicked out from your own farm.

 

4. Yes, mafiotic. If our rulers are not mafiotic at the moment, they will become.

 

5. I suggest I don't need propaganda. 

 

6. Robots don't mkae art  

 

http://www.dailymail...gh-Picasso.html

 

https://www.engadget...-famous-artist/

 

7. The fact that when you merge with the machine, you will no longer be a human being. But ofcourse, you may realize that only if you are not dumb.

 

8. In the future.

 

 

[sensei]

Congratulations, @sensei 

 

You just won "Mr. dumb ass 2017"

 

1. I don't understand the post singularity economy, because it is false bulshit.

 

 

 

please elaborate why it is false bullshit.

 

oh, also -- please explain why AI would self multiply -- they have no biological imperative to do so

 

 

Is a person with a pacemaker no longer a human being (they cannot survive without a microprocessor telling their heart when to beat).

[Danail Bulgaria]

It is false bulshit because when it happens the robots to take all of our proffessions, we will be either eliminated physically, and there will not be an economy at all

 

Or all of the products made from the machines will be spread relatively equally among the people, in accordance with the particular needs, and the human kind has real chances to proceed its existence.

But then we leave the capitalism entirely, and come to another type of economy, and social system. 

 

I once made a topic there

http://www.longecity...the-human-kind/

if you want, have a look at it too.

[Danail Bulgaria]

P.S.

 

Recently I made a conclusion, that yes, when you place an artifitial device, such as a pacemaker, you loosea par from your biological essence. The people today do implants out of no other choice. But if they had a choice, they would choose the biological way.

 

AI copies will be made in enough number for the purpose - to replace all the people. Don't think that as an argument. Copy-pasting is not that difficult.

 

[sensei]

P.S.

 

Recently I made a conclusion, that yes, when you place an artifitial device, such as a pacemaker, you loosea par from your biological essence. The people today do implants out of no other choice. But if they had a choice, they would choose the biological way.

 

AI copies will be made in enough number for the purpose - to replace all the people. Don't think that as an argument. Copy-pasting is not that difficult.

 

1. The word is dead -- it is an adverb.  Death is a noun.

2. Wow, such hubris to think you know everybody would choose the biological way.  I for one would welcome implants that would let me see in multiple spectrum; and/or integrated with processors that allow me to execute multiple parallel thought processes.

 

3. Why replace all the people?  Give a good reason.

[Danail Bulgaria]

...

1. The word is dead -- it is an adverb.  Death is a noun.

2. Wow, such hubris to think you know everybody would choose the biological way.  I for one would welcome implants that would let me see in multiple spectrum; and/or integrated with processors that allow me to execute multiple parallel thought processes.

 

3. Why replace all the people?  Give a good reason.

 

 

1. ok That argument is accepted lol. I confes, that sometimes I make writting and grammer mistakes.

 

2. That argument is also accepted - while writting, I was thinking, that a random person on that planet is having my view. I should be wrong on that. Still, I think, that the majority of the people will prefer to heal on the biological replacement way, rather than the implants way. 

 

3. The machines will replace all the people in their jobs (or at least the most important jobs). This is when the scenario of that topic is starting.  

 

 

P.S.

Sorry for naming you "Mr. dumb ass 2017"

Even if you have not been correct, you are not dumb, plus my reaction was over the limit.

[sensei]

3. The machines will replace all the people in their jobs (or at least the most important jobs). This is when the scenario of that topic is starting.

SO WHAT IF THEY DO.

That means that machines will replace all the farmers and food will be both abundant and free. No more cleaning toilets. No more scraping dog crap off the pavement.

If the machines perform the work of humans -- that means at a fundamental level they have no reason not to, nor any reason to not continue to do so.

I want my cooking, cleaning, farming, driving, nappy changing robot. Where can I sign up?

[YOLF]

 

 

Eliminated for what reason?

 

The planet can support 20 Billion + humans -- we currently produce 2700 kcal for each human alive -- politics and dictators are the problem.

 

In a post-scarcity (tech singularity world) -- there is no need to be 'productive' in the capitalistic sense.

 

I suggest you read some of "The Culture" series by Iain Banks.

 

...

 

You will be eliminated, and I think, that I posted clearly enough the reason. There will be a robot, that des your job better than you. As the first step you may eventually be simply fired, and left to starve to death together with your familly. So, what do you work, @sensei ? What will you do, when you get fired? And all other jobs are taken from machines?

 

The big players will use the machine,that is better from you, and will sell your kind of work for cents, thus making you impossible to compete and earn enough to feed your familly. This step if exists will be fine, but it may not exist. In this first step in the eyes of the rulers you turn into a dispossable fired useless mumbling junk.

 

At some point the dispossable mumbling loosers in Japan will be come too much, and suddenly the rulers of the world may decide to let after all, the North Korea to send you some missles.

 

During these two steps paralelly will be led a mafiotic war for taking control over the production. That great mafiotic warfare we may name simply the first stage.

 

After that warfare 99,9% of the big world rulers will have killed out each-other, and the remainig 0,1% of them will destroy all the rest of the people and will start living happily surrounded by controllable machines, doing whatever they want, and will have the entire planed solely for them and their familly, without any human idiot available, that to take the power from them. This we may call the second stage.

 

These steps and stages may not exist at all. The rulers may predict that development of the events very easilly, and plan a sudden totally unexpected global kill out, that to launch right after the most important proffessions are being automated. And things may move directly to the second stage.

 

 

Will AIs pay taxes? If I can't work, won't I get disability? I agree, read some culture novels.