14 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

I'm underinformed and under time constraints as I post this, so bear with me.

 

So I was reading this article:

http://www.moodraise...-your-mood.html

 

And it occurred to me that Adenosine levels are probably affected by NR supplements. Should I remove this from my regimen if I want to be more responsive to stressful stimulus? I've had some incidents where I feel I could have done better or neglected some social responsibilities that could have been quite damaging for my failure to take action. I've been taking NR since this time... everything else I'm taking, sans methylfolate, should be promoting responsibility and power to do the right in these situations. 

 

Would appreciate a variety of insights. I know this is a very important antiaging supplement, so we need to note the side effects and determine a way we can counteract the effects if it's having a negative impact on our community's commitment to social responsibility. 

[stefan_001]

Hi Yolf, what I can say is that in my personal experience concentration and focus ability has gone up. If I would project myself in a situation where I should act I think I am better off with NR.

Edited by stefan_001, 21 August 2016 - 11:02 PM.

[YOLF]

I'm not sure that needs to be said... It's benefits are well understood and agreed upon, but Concentration and focus is something entirely different than what I'm talking about... what I'm talking about is the stress stimulus switch not flipping where it should.

 

This stuff is most commonly found in milk, something for babies who rely on the stress responses of their parents for their survival. So it might be great for concentration and focus, but too high a dose for a prolonged amount of time might be blunting that response and reinforcing other behaviors. 125mg-250mg/dose of this stuff is how many times the amount found in milk? 

 

I'll say I don't necessarily feel fear differently, in fact, I sit there and over process it with a cool head and don't feel the "unacceptable" feeling and response associated with it. If a punch was going to hit me, I'd probably be pondering the nature of punches or be curious as to why a punch is coming my way in the first place up until I got knocked out. If the first one didn't knock me out, I might just be wondering if the second one would. I wouldn't have the capacity to draw upon the chemistry necessary to fight back or more pertinently, to take action. 

 

I stopped taking it yesterday morning and did notice some behavioral changes and a changing trend in the way I felt about things. Might even be motivating in a way. At this point, I'm thinking NR is more for people who are settled into their lives, perhaps older, or retired. Perhaps it's that at 34 I"m too young, even if I'm just taking a 125mg dose?

 

Edited by YOLF, 22 August 2016 - 11:04 AM.

[stefan_001]

I haven't noticed such side effects. Also as free NAD+ drops dramatically as we age your hypothesis would mean strong behavioral changes which I don't believe. In the situation you describe I believe I am better off with NR. Dont have any more to add. Perhaps post it in the NR experience thread and see if others react to it.

[YOLF]

Other hormones also drop dramatically as we age, levels are all relative. Nothing happens in isolation as Aubrey says. So dropping levels wouldn't necessarily mean that take-action levels would increase.

[Heisok]

Yolf, I have been thinking about your issue since you started this topic. Would you share what you have noticed since you cut back on the NR ?

 

I can see where what you are describing would be a problem, but possibly a benefit for some. Is a large part of what you are feeling the lack of a seemingly appropriate fight or flight response? I will add that my fight or flight response has been blunted. An example is that I was driving, and a large vehicle cut me off as they went around me due to their perception that I was driving too slow. (In some areas, driving the speed limit is too slow) I simply braked and continued on my way without getting mad and reacting in any other negative manner such as flipping them off.  Unlike you, I would not be able to pinpoint my increased NR dosage to this. Over the last 4 months, I have been regularly floating in magnesium float tanks. At least 30 times of 1 to 1 1/2 hours each. This probably has some effect. Another issue you brought up was social responsibility. Is this related to empathy as opposed to simply analyzing a situation without feeling one way or another? Maybe not acting due to the lack of empathy?

 

Assuming that the NR was effecting fight or flight in others the way you describe in yourself. I wonder if that in and of itself could be a great health benefit due to the inappropriate fight or flight response some have? Perhaps PTSD sufferers. I could also see highly trained emergency response personnel, armed forces members, police officers or others who might be able to keep their emotions out of solutions, and simply follow their training.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure that needs to be said... It's benefits are well understood and agreed upon, but Concentration and focus is something entirely different than what I'm talking about... what I'm talking about is the stress stimulus switch not flipping where it should.

 

This stuff is most commonly found in milk, something for babies who rely on the stress responses of their parents for their survival. So it might be great for concentration and focus, but too high a dose for a prolonged amount of time might be blunting that response and reinforcing other behaviors. 125mg-250mg/dose of this stuff is how many times the amount found in milk? 

 

I'll say I don't necessarily feel fear differently, in fact, I sit there and over process it with a cool head and don't feel the "unacceptable" feeling and response associated with it. If a punch was going to hit me, I'd probably be pondering the nature of punches or be curious as to why a punch is coming my way in the first place up until I got knocked out. If the first one didn't knock me out, I might just be wondering if the second one would. I wouldn't have the capacity to draw upon the chemistry necessary to fight back or more pertinently, to take action. 

 

I stopped taking it yesterday morning and did notice some behavioral changes and a changing trend in the way I felt about things. Might even be motivating in a way. At this point, I'm thinking NR is more for people who are settled into their lives, perhaps older, or retired. Perhaps it's that at 34 I"m too young, even if I'm just taking a 125mg dose?

 

 

[Heisok]

Hi Yolf,

 

I noticed that sthria asked a question in your Oxytocin thread. This gave a bit of an "I wonder?" moment. Have you discontinued or changed the dosage of Oxytocin? It is also found in mothers milk, so might balance the effect one might feel from large doses of NR.

 

Yolf:

"This stuff is most commonly found in milk, something for babies who rely on the stress responses of their parents for their survival. So it might be great for concentration and focus, but too high a dose for a prolonged amount of time might be blunting that response and reinforcing other behaviors. 125mg-250mg/dose of this stuff is how many times the amount found in milk?"

 

From a study of L. Reuteri 6475 which has been shown to increase Oxytocin:

 

"From an evolutionary perspective, probiotic commensal bacteria co-evolved with mammals exploiting endogenous hormonal and immune pathways to optimize host physical, mental and social fitness for mutual benefit. Survival advantages linked with oxytocin may extend beyond maternal-infant bonding to social superiority by enhancing cooperation within social groups while promoting aggression towards competitors"

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4354898/

[Kirito]

Let us not forget the role that CD38 plays here.

 

CD38 is critical for social behaviour by regulating oxytocin secretion

http://www.nature.co...ature05526.html

 

Adding that to the fact that it destroys more and more NMN as we age, we can see some kind of clear link. There are still many unknowns at play, though...

[YOLF]

Heisok, I haven't noticed any change in my driving habits from taking the NR. It's more about moments of anxiety and non response. I just shrug things off.Like I'm far less likely to take a social risk or do something that would leave me vulnerable, and I might not have the desire or care to respond? There's no social risk on the road, at least that I recognize. I'd still honk if I got cut off on NR... In this case specifically, I was worried about being vulnerable to a  negative reinforcement of previously experienced rejection when making an accusation, directly or inferred. Granted, I would generally try not to make assumptions or accusations and try to assume the best... Part of my problem is that I may lack a proper understanding/expectations/experience of these situations. Another part may be that anxiety has been teaching me for a long time to assess my surroundings to the point where I can't possibly ever have a response that isn't atypical of what is probably expected unless I'm acting. So maybe that's a confounding factor, maybe it's a contributor.

 

As of now, I've been using oxytocin regularly with only a few days off. I hadn't used it much at all in months. I'm still not sure how I'd handle these types of situations and have been avoiding them in favor of reinforcing prosocial skills that will improve my social/emotional 'strength.' In my mind, raising some peaks will drag up and narrow some valleys. I've had some good success in restoring my natural chemistry and becoming acclimated to situations in the way I should have seen them in the first place. I'm aiming to reinforce the right me so that I'll have a better insight into how I would handle things if I never had anxiety in the first place and can take that action instead of botching things with some indirect and piecemeal understanding that is convoluted by experiences of high anxiety and difficult for anyone to empathize with. The simplest answer is most often the correct one as they say. So it's a matter of picking that answer or approach out of a haystack... lol But it's easier than that, it's just a matter of flowing from the starting point of a former self. Though those initial responses seem so distant and blurry at this point.

 

Of course, I do also worry that I'm losing something important by adjusting in a 180 fashion rather than whatever the usual is. I guess I'll just have to master all of it

Edited by YOLF, 10 September 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[YOLF]

Oh, and I wouldn't say that I had a lack of empathy, it was there, I cared, I felt... the response to it just didn't allow me to validate the possibility of what I was thinking given the social risks involved in taking action and I didn't feel strong enough to withstand a dissmissive counter argument or be persistent if I was ignored. If anything, feelings were in overdrive and I was struggling to point them in a positive direction without deciding to chop the experience into compartmentalized bits.

[YOLF]

If you already have all the right experiences and responses programmed into you, then sure, NR is probably great. If you need to escape hypervigilance, great, but eventually a poorly adapted individual is going to have stand up and face some things, so it could have a use in the process of PTSD recovery, but it's not THE solution imo. 

 

I've also been taking alot of Mg, balanced of course with the appropriate amount of Ca, Zn, and Cu as well as other trace minerals such as B. I'll have to cut back and see what happens, but I would think the added T production would improve rather than sedate... I don't think it's ever made me feel sedated, do the "calming" effects of Mg come from an imbalance? I would think maintaining optimal levels wouldn't be a problem. Too much D3 on the other hand (I take minimal doses now) artificially produces feelings of satisfaction and removes your motivation to go out and live. I remember there was an antidepressant that acted on a specific sero receptor that improved motivation... anyone remember which one it was?

[YOLF]

Hi Yolf,

 

I noticed that sthria asked a question in your Oxytocin thread. This gave a bit of an "I wonder?" moment. Have you discontinued or changed the dosage of Oxytocin? It is also found in mothers milk, so might balance the effect one might feel from large doses of NR.

 

Yolf:

"This stuff is most commonly found in milk, something for babies who rely on the stress responses of their parents for their survival. So it might be great for concentration and focus, but too high a dose for a prolonged amount of time might be blunting that response and reinforcing other behaviors. 125mg-250mg/dose of this stuff is how many times the amount found in milk?"

 

From a study of L. Reuteri 6475 which has been shown to increase Oxytocin:

 

"From an evolutionary perspective, probiotic commensal bacteria co-evolved with mammals exploiting endogenous hormonal and immune pathways to optimize host physical, mental and social fitness for mutual benefit. Survival advantages linked with oxytocin may extend beyond maternal-infant bonding to social superiority by enhancing cooperation within social groups while promoting aggression towards competitors"

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4354898/

 

I have been taking probiotics which do contain 180 million CFU of that variety, and I do sometimes have frozen yogurt coffee bars. Perhaps probiotic supplementation has been responsible for my inconsistent oxytocin benefits? Perhaps GI issues and diets harmful to them have something to do with how susceptible we are to experiencing the chemistry of others? I've read somewhere that oxytocin is it's own receptor? I'm assuming that means that one of it's byproducts is a receptor.

[YOLF]

Let us not forget the role that CD38 plays here.

 

CD38 is critical for social behaviour by regulating oxytocin secretion

http://www.nature.co...ature05526.html

 

Adding that to the fact that it destroys more and more NMN as we age, we can see some kind of clear link. There are still many unknowns at play, though...

Can you expand this line of thought? I'm not sure I'm following.

[YOLF]

Well it looks like quercetin and apigenin slow down the consumption of NAD+ by CD38... But do they leave more of it to the end that it releases more oxytocin?

http://alivebynature...cd38-as-we-age/

[Heisok]

Thanks Yolf.