955 replies to this topic

[Decimus]

Another very positive study with Rapamycin: http://medicalxpress...-aged-mice.html

Is anyone experimenting with this yet?

[wallynext]

Havent tried Rapamycin, and never heard of it, will Take a look thank you

 

All I know is Mice will one day surpass us in lifespan and will be cured of cancer with all the Mice trials going on haha, NR also showed a decrease in Mice agr "2 year old mice turned into 6 years old" source: http://www.boostdnar...cal-trials.html

[VP.]

The most-senior mouse in the study was Ike, the namesake of a relative of one of the researchers. The mouse Ike lived 1400 days. For a person, that would be like hailing a 140th year birthday.

"To our amazement, considering the relatively small size of the group of mice we studied, Ike might have been one of the longest lived mice of his kind," Kaeberlein said. Ike was a wild-type C57BL/6, a designation for one of the most common sub-strains of mice.

On the other hand, some of the side effects observed during the study were less than celebratory. The cautionary findings, the researchers noted, illustrate the need to better understanding the relationship between the dose of rapamycin and its beneficial as well as detrimental effects.

The researchers saw a gender difference when higher doses of rapamycin were given: males outlived the females. At lower doses, both male and female mice had longer lives, compared to untreated mice.

Higher doses can make female mice more susceptible to aggressive cancers of blood-forming cells and tissue. At the same time, middle-aged female mice receiving high doses of rapamycin were less likely to develop other types of cancer.

The transient rapamycin treatment also changed the composition of the microbiome -- the collection of bacteria and other microbes -- in the guts of the mice. They had more segmented, filamentous bacteria of a type not usually abundant in aged mice.

While these bacteria are not invasive, they adhere tightly to the cells of the intestinal wall and may encourage the formation of immune cells in the mouse. Otherwise, the influence of this gut microbiome change from rapamycin on the health of an animal, for good or bad, and whether the same thing happens in humans, has not been determined.

"The microbiota changes are an intriguing finding," Treuting said, "and will be an exciting area of future aging interventional research."

Kaeberlein explained that he and other researchers are interested in whether rapamycin could be given effectively short-term in people and their pets. Kaeberlein also heads studies of rapamycin treatment in canines in the Dog Aging Project.

"We were pleased to see that the initiation of rapamycin treatment at middle age, rather than the full lifespan of the mice, had an effect," said Treuting. The research paper noted that the robust influence on lifespan in this brief treatment study is comparable to effects previously reported for life-long treatment.

"Transient treatment regimens such as this have obvious advantages for translational potential [clinical applications] for people - or dogs," Kaeberlein said. "It's much easier to imagine something that a middle-aged, healthy person would take for three months every other year, or something like that, rather than a drug that a person would take for the rest of their lives."

http://www.eurekaler...h-brt082316.php

Short-term treatment would be less costly and more practical for most patients.

The data in this study also points to carefully considering the patient's gender in the effort to optimize treatment, and to more deeply looking into the effects of drugs similar to rapamycin (mTOR inhibitors), which are now used for a variety of clinical purposes, on predilection for and protection from different types of cancer.

"The importance of evaluating potential risks and adverse side effects when developing interventions to promote healthy aging should not be underestimated," the research team concluded in their report.

[nowayout]

It takes a very optimistic "misreading" (to be charitable) of that graph to come up with the 60% figure, which is of course garbage. 

 

Whoever did the press release should be fired. The data are impressive without needing to put a fraudulent spin on it. 

Edited by nowayout, 25 August 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[Decimus]

The most-senior mouse in the study was Ike, the namesake of a relative of one of the researchers. The mouse Ike lived 1400 days. For a person, that would be like hailing a 140th year birthday.
"To our amazement, considering the relatively small size of the group of mice we studied, Ike might have been one of the longest lived mice of his kind," Kaeberlein said. Ike was a wild-type C57BL/6, a designation for one of the most common sub-strains of mice. ...

"We were pleased to see that the initiation of rapamycin treatment at middle age, rather than the full lifespan of the mice, had an effect," said Treuting. The research paper noted that the robust influence on lifespan in this brief treatment study is comparable to effects previously reported for life-long treatment.
"Transient treatment regimens such as this have obvious advantages for translational potential [clinical applications] for people - or dogs," Kaeberlein said. "It's much easier to imagine something that a middle-aged, healthy person would take for three months every other year, or something like that, rather than a drug that a person would take for the rest of their lives."
http://www.eurekaler...h-brt082316.php

Short-term treatment would be less costly and more practical for most patients.
The data in this study also points to carefully considering the patient's gender in the effort to optimize treatment, and to more deeply looking into the effects of drugs similar to rapamycin (mTOR inhibitors), which are now used for a variety of clinical purposes, on predilection for and protection from different types of cancer.
"The importance of evaluating potential risks and adverse side effects when developing interventions to promote healthy aging should not be underestimated," the research team concluded in their report.

Would you post the link to this article and graph? If the longest lived mouse made it to 1400 days this graph can't be accurate.

Edited by Michael, 30 June 2017 - 06:36 PM.
Trim quotes

[PWAIN]

 

The most-senior mouse in the study was Ike, the namesake of a relative of one of the researchers. The mouse Ike lived 1400 days. For a person, that would be like hailing a 140th year birthday.
"To our amazement, considering the relatively small size of the group of mice we studied, Ike might have been one of the longest lived mice of his kind," Kaeberlein said. Ike was a wild-type C57BL/6, a designation for one of the most common sub-strains of mice. ...

"We were pleased to see that the initiation of rapamycin treatment at middle age, rather than the full lifespan of the mice, had an effect," said Treuting. The research paper noted that the robust influence on lifespan in this brief treatment study is comparable to effects previously reported for life-long treatment.
"Transient treatment regimens such as this have obvious advantages for translational potential [clinical applications] for people - or dogs," Kaeberlein said. "It's much easier to imagine something that a middle-aged, healthy person would take for three months every other year, or something like that, rather than a drug that a person would take for the rest of their lives."
http://www.eurekaler...h-brt082316.php

Short-term treatment would be less costly and more practical for most patients.
The data in this study also points to carefully considering the patient's gender in the effort to optimize treatment, and to more deeply looking into the effects of drugs similar to rapamycin (mTOR inhibitors), which are now used for a variety of clinical purposes, on predilection for and protection from different types of cancer.
"The importance of evaluating potential risks and adverse side effects when developing interventions to promote healthy aging should not be underestimated," the research team concluded in their report.

Would you post the link to this article and graph? If the longest lived mouse made it to 1400 days this graph can't be accurate.

Treatment was up to 1000 days, graph shows post treatment days. See description on the axis.

Edited by Michael, 30 June 2017 - 06:35 PM.

[Decimus]

I'm assuming that the origin of 23-24 months was the age of the mice when the treatment stopped, which would give you about 720 days plus the maximum days on the x axis, which would put it around 1120 days. I assuming these are averages, but, 1400 days is a pretty large outlier. I'd like to look at the raw data.

[PWAIN]

You're right. I was missing the 23/24 month marker. So a reasonable number made it past 100 to about 109. Approx 10 days to a mouse equals a year. 20 months equals about 600 days or 60yo mice when treatment starts. Treatment is for 3 months or 90 days (9 years to the mice). So after 690 days, some of them lived up to 400 more days. Or human equivalent of 109yo. The 1400 day old mouse (140yo) does not seem to be included in this graph. Perhaps because he was a one off or maybe he was in a different group (maybe on a higher dose). I agree, it would be good to see the original paper.

[nowayout]

 

Would you post the link to this article and graph? If the longest lived mouse made it to 1400 days this graph can't be accurate.

Treatment was up to 1000 days, graph shows post treatment days. See description on the axis.

 

 
That makes the 60% claim even more flagrantly fraudulent.

Edited by Michael, 30 June 2017 - 06:40 PM.
trim quotes

[VP.]

Would you post the link to this article and graph? If the longest lived mouse made it to 1400 days this graph can't be accurate.

https://elifescience...ontent/5/e16351

Edited by Michael, 30 June 2017 - 06:40 PM.
trim quotes

[to age or not to age]

I was to the SENS conference at the Buck Institute last week and can confirm that Kennedy et al are quite high about rapamycin. Privately,

scientists seem to dismiss the risk of infection as a side effect.  Another MD I contacted (who is himself taking rapamycin for the past

six months) has reported strikingly positive blood work and belly fat reduction.  The problem seems to be that acquiring rapamycin for research purposes requires an institution profile. Any ideas?

[to age or not to age]

One other note, the recent study headed by Matt Kaeberlein - who was a grad student along with Kennedy at Lenny Guarantee's MIT lab)

suggested that rapamycin has an effect on gut bacteria. To me this is significant and intriguing.

[VP.]

Here's at least one person who is taking Rapamycin:

He’s cautious about the anti-aging potential of rapamycin, a derivative of which the company sells under the Afinitor brand name for cancer treatments and as Zortress for transplants, with 2012 sales of just more than $1 billion. (Pfizer, which purchased Wyeth in 2009, also sells a version under the brand name Rapamune.) “I remain skeptical that there will be one magic bullet,” Fishman says, “but [the 2014 study] is a good proof-of-concept, and it’s provocative enough that we’ll at least think of how and whether we should proceed.”

Blagosklonny isn’t so measured or patient. In his view, rapamycin has been approved for use for more than 15 years, with no serious problems reported. “I have read all papers about side effects,” he says, “and there are less side effects than with aspirin.” When he took it, he says, it made him feel better, “like with exercising.”

Novartis strongly discourages such off-label use. In an e-mail, spokeswoman Mariellen Gallagher wrote: “It is far too early to tell whether low-dose rapamycin will lengthen human life span. A favorable risk/benefit ratio needs to be demonstrated in clinic trials to be sure that mTOR inhibitors such as rapamycin have acceptable safety and efficacy in aging-related conditions in humans.”

In any case, one imagines Sehgal would be proud. After he was diagnosed with cancer in 1998, his son Ajai says, Sehgal began taking rapamycin, too—despite the drug not having been approved for anything yet. He had a hunch that it might help slow the spread of his cancer, which had metastasized to his liver and other organs. His doctors gave him two years to live, but he survived for much longer, as the tumors appeared to go dormant. The only side effect he suffered from was canker sores, a relatively small price to pay.

But in 2003, after five years, Sehgal, age 70, decided to stop taking the drug. Otherwise, he told his wife, he’d never know whether it was really holding back his cancer. The tumors came back quickly, and h

e died within months, says Ajai. “On his deathbed, he said to me, ‘The stupidest thing I’ve ever done is stop taking the drug.’ ”

 

 "The stupidest thing I’ve ever done is stop taking the drug" How sad.

http://www.bloomberg...-already-exist-

Edited by velopismo, 31 August 2016 - 07:05 AM.

[Jaris]

There are several suppliers of Rapamycin on alibaba. Here's one: https://www.alibaba....0535377909.html

I've contacted several suppliers to get their latest quote and none of them have asked if I'm using it for research. But can I trust a supplier in China to deliver the actual product? Does anyone here have experience with alibaba?

The price they quoted was $200 per gram, plus maybe $50 or so for faster delivery. That's really cheap!

 

Any thoughts - or better yet research on the best dose?

Edited by Jaris, 01 November 2016 - 05:26 AM.

[DbCooper]

There are several suppliers of Rapamycin on alibaba. Here's one: https://www.alibaba....0535377909.html

I've contacted several suppliers to get their latest quote and none of them have asked if I'm using it for research. But can I trust a supplier in China to deliver the actual product? Does anyone here have experience with alibaba?

The price they quoted was $200 per gram, plus maybe $50 or so for faster delivery. That's really cheap!

 

Any thoughts - or better yet research on the best dose?

 

Ive ordered stuff off of Alibaba before and received it however with no way to tell what I was actually getting I never used any.  I think your best bet is mail order or going to get it in Mexico. 

 

The studies seem to indicate a low does is effective, so I would be interested in dosage size as well. 

I was to the SENS conference at the Buck Institute last week and can confirm that Kennedy et al are quite high about rapamycin. Privately,

scientists seem to dismiss the risk of infection as a side effect.  Another MD I contacted (who is himself taking rapamycin for the past

six months) has reported strikingly positive blood work and belly fat reduction.  The problem seems to be that acquiring rapamycin for research purposes requires an institution profile. Any ideas?

 

 

Can you reach out and find out what the dosage the MD is using? The lowest Ive seen is like 2.5mg?

[to age or not to age]

The two MDs I asked take the following dose. One takes one 6mg dose once per week, and has for 6 months, without side effects.

The other is starting 1mg for 10 days in a row, then 20 off then 10 on and so forth.  He also said he might up it to 2mg per day for 10 days

then 20 off etc. Both these approaches are intermittent yet slightly different. 

[VP.]

Be sure to watch the video: http://www.cnn.com/2...og-live-longer/

[VP.]

A Doctor Alan Green posted this on the Aging Matters Blog in the comments section.

 

I take Rapamycin 6 mg a week for past 6 months. (cost $ 4.00) for 1 mg from Canada. I also include Metformin 500mg daily, exercise and diet. I have had no side effects. The improvement in cardiovascular function has been extraordinarily good. My weight has gone from 170 to 150 and waist line from 38 inches to 33. After ! year if my results continue as good as seems, I intend to prescribe Rapamycin off label for middle age persons who make proper informed consent. I am 73.

 

 

[Heisok]

According to Dr. Peter Attia, the prescription as seen on the bottle Sehgal's wife still had was for 1 mg per day. He discussed it on a recent Tim Ferris podcast from Easter Island. This comment was made at around 2 hours and 50 minutes in. The podcast is 3 hours long. They do discuss Rapamycin at different points of the discussion.

 

At 1 hour 43 minutes in, what I heard said by Dr. Attia was along the lines of:

 

Should we take Rapamycin? (probably), dose? (not clear) , intermittently? (likely)

 

Peter Attia, MD, David M. Sabatini, M.D., Ph.D., Navdeep S. Chandel, PhD.

 

http://fourhourworkw...-easter-island/

 

Here's at least one person who is taking Rapamycin:

He’s cautious about the anti-aging potential of rapamycin, a derivative of which the company sells under the Afinitor brand name for cancer treatments and as Zortress for transplants, with 2012 sales of just more than $1 billion. (Pfizer, which purchased Wyeth in 2009, also sells a version under the brand name Rapamune.) “I remain skeptical that there will be one magic bullet,” Fishman says, “but [the 2014 study] is a good proof-of-concept, and it’s provocative enough that we’ll at least think of how and whether we should proceed.”

Blagosklonny isn’t so measured or patient. In his view, rapamycin has been approved for use for more than 15 years, with no serious problems reported. “I have read all papers about side effects,” he says, “and there are less side effects than with aspirin.” When he took it, he says, it made him feel better, “like with exercising.”

Novartis strongly discourages such off-label use. In an e-mail, spokeswoman Mariellen Gallagher wrote: “It is far too early to tell whether low-dose rapamycin will lengthen human life span. A favorable risk/benefit ratio needs to be demonstrated in clinic trials to be sure that mTOR inhibitors such as rapamycin have acceptable safety and efficacy in aging-related conditions in humans.”

In any case, one imagines Sehgal would be proud. After he was diagnosed with cancer in 1998, his son Ajai says, Sehgal began taking rapamycin, too—despite the drug not having been approved for anything yet. He had a hunch that it might help slow the spread of his cancer, which had metastasized to his liver and other organs. His doctors gave him two years to live, but he survived for much longer, as the tumors appeared to go dormant. The only side effect he suffered from was canker sores, a relatively small price to pay.

But in 2003, after five years, Sehgal, age 70, decided to stop taking the drug. Otherwise, he told his wife, he’d never know whether it was really holding back his cancer. The tumors came back quickly, and h

e died within months, says Ajai. “On his deathbed, he said to me, ‘The stupidest thing I’ve ever done is stop taking the drug.’ ”

 

 "The stupidest thing I’ve ever done is stop taking the drug" How sad.

http://www.bloomberg...-already-exist-

 

Edited by Heisok, 02 November 2016 - 01:00 AM.

[LOOKINGFORTIME]

Please let me know if their will be a group buy for rapamycin.

[Jaris]

Sure. Well, I'm taking steps to make 1 gram purchases from 2 separate suppliers on Alibaba. I've chosen the suppliers based on how they present themselves. I've looked over their online pages and have had short conversations with them.

Once I get the product, I plan on giving small doses to my aged dog; a recent study showed encouraging benefits to dogs. Frankly, he's not going to live another 6 months without this, so I might as well try. It may also give me a way to evaluate the product.

I plan to take small doses of it myself, but at this point I don't feel confident enough to ask anyone else to participate in a group buy.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to get a prescription, nor do I want to try to pretend to have a legit research organization. I also can't afford to travel to Mexico as some have suggested. That seems to leave just this one option. As far as I'm able to determine, I'm breaking no law by purchasing Rapamycin from China. It's not any sort of hallucinogen, and the molecule can't be patented (it's found in nature). Purchasing it this way is also significantly less expensive than any other way I've seen. Thoughts anyone?

[Jaris]

As far as the 'best dose' question: I wonder about the logic behind each of the mentioned approaches. I would rather not go by a gut feeling. I've seen the reports on studies done on mice and dogs, but they were using very high doses (by body mass). There was supposed to be a human study in the works, but I can't seem to find the results (just a page that describes the study, which also seems to indicate that the study has concluded). I'm tending to give the MD who takes a 6 mg dose once a week more credence, since he's reporting good results, and, well, he's an actual human! Still, one data point is far from ideal.

[APBT]

 

A Doctor Alan Green posted this on the Aging Matters Blog in the comments section.

 

I take Rapamycin 6 mg a week for past 6 months. (cost $ 4.00) for 1 mg from Canada. I also include Metformin 500mg daily, exercise and diet. I have had no side effects. The improvement in cardiovascular function has been extraordinarily good. My weight has gone from 170 to 150 and waist line from 38 inches to 33. After ! year if my results continue as good as seems, I intend to prescribe Rapamycin off label for middle age persons who make proper informed consent. I am 73.

 

 

 

Here's a link to the aforementioned blog:  http://joshmitteldor...apamycin-redux/

[maxwatt]

I have contacts in china can evaluate suppliers

 

[Jaris]

I have contacts in china can evaluate suppliers

That would be very helpful, maxwatt. I can't tell very much from their online pages. Anyone can claim to have $100 million in revenue and put up impressive pictures. Here are a few suppliers of Rapamycin that have a minimum order of 1 gram. In each line below, the first link is to the company's Alibaba page, and the second is to that company's Rapamycin product page.:

 

https://foresightcare.en.alibaba.com/   https://www.alibaba....155244.html?s=p

https://sybio.en.alibaba.com/    https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rapamycin-53123-88-9-Sirolimus-Rapamycin_60535377909.html

https://yiyangbio.en.alibaba.com/   https://www.alibaba....1607146005.html

https://afinechem.en.alibaba.com/   https://www.alibaba....1619953939.html

https://medcan.en.alibaba.com/   https://www.alibaba....1759210072.html

 

I'm furthest along with the first one, but have not committed to anything.

If none of these check out, there are many more.

Edited by Jaris, 03 November 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[VP.]

I don't think ordering Rapamycin from China is a good idea. According to this article you need to inject rapamycin, something I would never do. You need to get Everolimus or Rapammune (same thing).

This isn’t exactly news, but it’s news to me: Rapamycin has an orally administered derivative, Everolimus, already in use as an anti-cancer and anti-rejection drug. (The two compounds are almost identical; Everolimus has one additional hydroxyethyl group on the protuberant cyclohexane ring, and apparently that’s enough to make the unwieldy rapamycin molecule orally bioavailable.)

This might be good news if it turns out that the longevity-enhancing qualities of rapamycin end up generalizing to humans: If you need to maintain constant levels of a chronically administered drug, t’s way easier to use timed-release oral capsules than injections. Also, as millions of diabetics will tell you, it’s just nice not to have to shoot up.

https://ouroboros.wo...-pill/#comments

 

 

[niner]

I don't know where Ouroboros gets the information about injection; Sirolimus / Rapamycin is orally bioavailable and is provided in tablet and oral solution forms.

[Jaris]

Good input, and this has been a question that I've had about Rapamycin, along with the best dosing levels, etc.

Injections do not sound like fun and could easily be dangerous. On the other hand, I've learned not to say "something I would never do", because I have early onset Parkinson's and:

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20089925 and http://www.buckinsti...erative-disease

So, for me, "life extension" has a more immediate meaning than for most of you. For me, living to be 120+ is a possible but secondary goal. Living to be 80 would be great to start with!

 

Anyone else care to weigh in?

Edited by Jaris, 14 November 2016 - 07:10 AM.

[Skyguy2005]

I was in that study, the food was absolutely terrible, especially in the control group. 

 

Seriously though, why didn't they have any mice on Rapa for longer? 

[Jaris]

After looking into the whole 'inject vs ingest' issue with a doctor acquaintance, we have found no basis to the claim that Rapamycin can't be ingested and is not bio-available, and therefore must be injected. Sirolimus and Rapamune are different names for Rapamycin - they are exactly the same thing, and they can be ingested either as pills, powder in a capsule, or as an oral solution (e.g. liquid). Everolimus (also called Afinitor) is a slightly different drug that can also be ingested.