955 replies to this topic

[maxwatt]

That is not a bad price for an Indian pharmacy. alldaychemists.com is 30% more for 30 tablets. But considering that some experimenters' regimens are 6mg weekly, or biweekly, or 3 mg weekly, not too outrageous a price IMO. Intermittent dosing seems to me necessary to avoid the undesirable side effects. FWIW, serum half life has been reported to be up to 72 hours.

As for prescription, the Indian drugstores all seem to ask for this, but some will send your order even if you skip that information request. If you can get a prescription, it will cost less from Canada. Unlikely your insurance will pay for off-label use. There is a doctor in the New York area who has been taking rapamycin for a year, reports losing 20 pounds and other good things. He may be open to prescribing to patients he treats. There are probably others across the country, especially California.

[Jaris]

"... He may be open to prescribing to patients he treats."

 

I've been in contact with him, and he is, but I would have to go to NY.

 

"... There are probably others across the country, especially California."

 

Sadly, none that I've been able to find, and I have tried. Someone posted a link to a site that had a list of doctors who are friendly to the idea of longevity meds. I called 4 here in CA, and all 4 responded that Rapamycin had severe side effects, and they wouldn't prescribe it. I tried to explain about low dose etc, but in each case I couldn't talk to the actual doctor. I had to argue my point with an assistant over the phone, which didn't go well.

 

It's sad when a doctor won't listen to a patient, especially a know-it-all like me. 

 

Edited by Jaris, 05 January 2017 - 09:37 PM.

[waverock]

 I'm 65, I have been taking metformin for over a year. my glucose was about 95 before I started taking metformin. I take 500mg a day, sometime 1000mg a day if I want to eat full meals. It took  about a month to start working for me. My weight went from 171 to 161. my glucose went from 95 to 87. I feel less need to eat, more energy, less belly fat. I am going to add rapamycin at small dose, when I can find a supplier.

[Jaris]

I'll pass along anything I've learned about suppliers once I've actually learned something and verified it. I will keep a list of interested people, so PM me if you want updates.

Edited by Jaris, 07 January 2017 - 10:09 PM.

[Jaris]

I had a request for a list of Rapamycin articles and studies, so I compiled my bookmarks. Here's what I have. Please add any good ones that I missed:

 

http://www.pdf.org/en/science_news/release/pr_1447442513

http://www.buckinstitute.org/buck-news/rapamycin-prevents-parkinsons-mouse-model-incurable-neurodegenerative-disease

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20089925

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26463117

http://www.kurzweila...isking-diabetes

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0531556514003490

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270002631_mTOR_inhibition_improves_immune_function_in_the_elderly (human study)

http://www.oncologynurseadvisor.com/web-exclusives/grapefruit-juice-harnesses-power-of-sirolimus/article/256321/ (grapefruit juice effect)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26463117
http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/neuro-diseases-found-linked-to-ogdhl-and-nrd1-genes/81253608
 

Less technical:

http://www.sehgal.net/surenshistory.htm

http://www.nextbigfu...in-treated.html

http://cen.acs.org/a...dArticleContent

Edited by Jaris, 07 January 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[Jaris]

Some more (but older links:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4012933/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24556924)

 

On another note:

Supposing that we find a reliable, inexpensive supplier from India, some of us would like to be assured that we aren't gulping down heavy metals and ARE eating our rapamycin.

Does anyone know the best way to get something like this tested?

Edited by Jaris, 08 January 2017 - 01:15 AM.

[maxwatt]

I know someone who could run it through a mass spectrometer with a small sample. Otherwise one could pay a lab to perform HPLC. Alkemy, Intertek are two such.

[maxwatt]

I am told by a man in the pharmaceutical industry in China that rapamycin is not at present made in China.  That may change in a few months.

In India it is made or marketed by Indian or branches of multinational pharmaceutical companies.

 

A problem with purchasing the drug as a powder would be accurately measuring such small doses.  Typical tablet size for treating kidney (and other ) cancers is 1 mg; Typically a loading dose of 6 mg initially, lesser amounts later, depending on the nephrologist.  Overdoses could bring on some of the nasty side effects noted in the medical literature.  Mouth sores, impotence, diabetes.... 

 

I would prefer playing with something made by a pharmaceutical company that has the expertise and quality control to consistently provide small doses with precision..  Like something made by Pfizer, for instance.  If you are using it on your mice, you should have the lab equipment to accurately dose them.

[Jaris]

Yes, I concluded over a  month ago that buying and using it as a powder would be too difficult. 1mg is a very tiny amount, even if you could be sure of the purity.

The suppliers I'm currently looking at sell 1mg Sirolimus pills from India. Their prices vary quite a bit. The question of price vs quality is a tough one and isn't always obvious.

Those who can wait or afford something made by Pfizer should probably go that route. Those of us who want (or need) to take a calculated risk (I have Parkinson's) and can't afford years or expensive pills, may have to take another.

Which is why I want to try different suppliers and test what they send. Much of the world takes meds made in India. Not all of it is good, but not all is bad. The trick (as always) will be to find a reliable supplier with good product.

Edited by Jaris, 08 January 2017 - 05:56 AM.

[DareDevil]

I have been searching for a reasonable source and found two price comparison sites:

 

Global:

https://www.pharmacy...sirolimus/1 mg/

 

Indian Generics:

http://www.medindia....e/sirolimus.htm

 

Trade Name Rapacan

Manufacturer Biocon (India) Ltd

Unit 1mg

Type Tablet

Quantity 10 Tablets 

Price 1300  =  US$ 19

 

Trade Name Rapamune 

Manufacturer Wyeth Ltd 

Unit 1mg

Type Tablet

Quantity 30 Tablets

Price 11936.9  =  US$ 175

 

Trade Name Siromus

Manufacturer Zydus Biogen

Unit 1mg

Type Tablet

Quantity 10 Tablets

Price 965  =  US$ 14

 

 

Indian online pharmacies are selling them up to 50% above MSRP.

I can't say whether they'll ship without a prescription.

I don't know how pure these generics are.

I may try to purchase within a few weeks.

 

DareDevil

Edited by DareDevil, 10 January 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[Jaris]

Thanks for this info, DD. Am I reading that right - $1.40 per pill?

 

The best price I'd seen until now was $3/pill. But that's delivered. I'll be interested to see if they deliver, and if so what that price would be.

 

I might actually be getting a prescription from a friendly doctor in a few weeks, if all goes well. But even if I do, paying full price at a US pharmacy might be expensive.

[to age or not to age]

Try sirolimus pharmacy checker.  100 1mg pills for $349. Dr Greene (who takes it) turned us on to this canadian outlet. Prior to this, walmart and rite aid were asking for 1,495 and 1,492 for 100 1 mg pills.

[DareDevil]

Hi Jaris,

 

Yes that isn't a misprint.

I used xetrade.com to convert the price in Indian Rupees to US$. 

However online I only found a similar price/mg for the 2mg tablet.

 

DareDevil

[waverock]

http://www.internationaldrugmart.com/ they have it, 1 mg, the website says you need a prescription but  you can  do a live chat and order by phone and they will send it to you without.  40 pills for $280 about $7.00 per pill. If I do 1 pill a week with greatfruit juice that will equal about 3mg dose. that will last me about 9 months. It's a small dose and I think side effects will not be too great. I have to do something.... skylab is entering the atmosphere. 

[to age or not to age]

I ordered rapamycin from canadain pharmacy world - they were very professional.  I had a prescription which I had to send to them - they called me up twice over the next 2 days,

and only after everything checked out did they process my credit card for 349. They do receive the compound from India, a generic equivalent of rapamune.

[Jaris]

Rapacan manufactured by Biocon? That's what a supplier from India provides.It's good to know that the Canadian supplier really does check prescriptions (which I hope to have shortly) and is legit. Have you received your order? Might they still stop it at customs?

Edited by Jaris, 11 January 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[to age or not to age]

I took the seller recommendation from Dr Greene, who has been taking it for 6+ months.  This gave me comfort that the Canadian outfit is serious. Just buying such a product 

blind from India feels too chancy.  On another front, Vince Giuliano, myself and two others have decided to experiment along with beta lapachone and low intermittent dosing of rapamycin.

I am going to film the situation on an ongoing basis (I'm a film director) - Vince is absolutely fearless, brilliant and just an extraordinary character - trained as a physicist - he speaks many languages.

We shall see. 

[to age or not to age]

Jaris - the credit card went through 2 weeks from this coming Saturday.  The Canadian person said on the phone that it would take 16-18 business days to arrive (as I remember)

My instinct says the pharmacy is legit - customs? We shall see.

[tintinet]

I've ordered meds from outside the US many times. No problems so far.

[Jaris]

I took the seller recommendation from Dr Greene, who has been taking it for 6+ months.  This gave me comfort that the Canadian outfit is serious. Just buying such a product 

blind from India feels too chancy.  On another front, Vince Giuliano, myself and two others have decided to experiment along with beta lapachone and low intermittent dosing of rapamycin.

I am going to film the situation on an ongoing basis (I'm a film director) - Vince is absolutely fearless, brilliant and just an extraordinary character - trained as a physicist - he speaks many languages.

We shall see. 

Interesting on several levels. Why are you combining these 2 meds? Are there any studies that suggest it's a good idea?

What doses are you taking?

I'm also in contact with Dr Green. He's taking 500mg / day of Metformin. Are you?

Thanks!

[aribadabar]

I ordered rapamycin from canadain pharmacy world - they were very professional.  I had a prescription which I had to send to them - they called me up twice over the next 2 days,

and only after everything checked out did they process my credit card for 349. 

I only see $900 for 100 doses x 1mg, no other options.

 

How were you quoted for $349 and for how many pills?

[maxwatt]

For those interested in senolytics, I'd like to call your attention to this post  http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=801755    

which links to a crowdfunding site for Cellage, a company seeking to develop molecules more specifically targeted to specific senescent cells, not just those that this happens to reach(or not reach), perhaps with an overly broad sweep.

The write-up about the company on the crowdfunding site is informative.

 

I don't yet know if rapamycin acts as a senolytic downstream of mTOR.  Anybody?  or I can keep reading....

[Jaris]

 

I ordered rapamycin from canadain pharmacy world - they were very professional.  I had a prescription which I had to send to them - they called me up twice over the next 2 days,

and only after everything checked out did they process my credit card for 349. 

I only see $900 for 100 doses x 1mg, no other options.

 

How were you quoted for $349 and for how many pills?

 

I see it here: https://www.canadaph...me=Rapamune2555

 

If you have a script, this looks like the place to buy from.

Edited by Jaris, 12 January 2017 - 06:07 AM.

[tintinet]

Why this particular pharmacy? There are many with apparently good reputations.

 

I ordered rapamycin from canadain pharmacy world

I see it here: https://www.canadaph...me=Rapamune2555

If you have a script, this looks like the place to buy from.

Edited by Michael, 30 June 2017 - 07:21 PM.
Trim quotes

[aribadabar]

 

 

I ordered rapamycin from canadain pharmacy world - they were very professional.  I had a prescription which I had to send to them - they called me up twice over the next 2 days,

and only after everything checked out did they process my credit card for 349. 

I only see $900 for 100 doses x 1mg, no other options.

 

How were you quoted for $349 and for how many pills?

 

I see it here: https://www.canadaph...me=Rapamune2555

 

If you have a script, this looks like the place to buy from.

 

Thanks, I must have gone straight to the Pfizer's offering and not the generic one though I think I went a step back to see all offerings.

 

To be a bit nitpicking, your link is showing here $359 (unlike TAONTA's $349). 

[malbecman]

 As for another source, a very reputable supplier I've used from India for other compounds ((I"m a chemist) sent me this email when I asked if they could supply it:

 

We can not get that but please order from

aipctshop.com

they have it on their site.  and we know them to be a good firm

http://aipctshop.com...an-rapamune1mg/

 

Rapacan i believe is sirolimus

 

15 1mg tabs for $66 so that about $4.40 per pill.

[Valijon]

Ok, so lets say several of us aquire some. Taking 1mg per day. How many days in a row and how many days off should we take it in order to avoid side effects? How long should people take this drug? Months? Years? Forever?

[Jaris]

Ok, so lets say several of us aquire some. Taking 1mg per day. How many days in a row and how many days off should we take it in order to avoid side effects? How long should people take this drug? Months? Years? Forever?

The obvious answer to all of these questions is: nobody really knows, because the few human tests that have been done haven't studied them to any real depth. From one study: https://www.research...e990e045b03.pdf

we know that: 

"... were given one of three doses: 0.5 mg daily, 5 mg weekly, or 20 mg weekly."

"... relatively well tolerated, particularly the 0.5 mg daily and 5 mg weekly dosing regimens."

 

But the study didn't do exhaustive comparisons of very many doses/intervals. Is there something better about weekly doses as opposed to every day or 3 days or 5 or 20 days? Nobody really knows, but hints here and there suggest that dosing every day might lead to side effects, while once a week would be safer. We also know from this study on elderly humans that 20mg once a week is not as well tolerated as 5mg/week. We don't know if 5mg or 8mg or 10 or 15mg... a week (or 2 weeks) is optimal, because they haven't study that yet.

 

We do have a tiny bit of data from those few who have been self experimenting and reporting back. Taking 5 to 7mg a week seems to give good results, although the guy taking 7 reports mouth sores. So *maybe* that's too much? The data-set is just too small to be sure.

 

How long would we have to take it? Based on what we suspect is happening, we could make a guess. My guess is that you might need heavier and/or more frequent doses at first to clear away dead or damaged cells, but maybe not as much long term. But it could be the opposite. Again, we don't really know. We need more studies. Unfortunately, Sirolimus (actually Rapamune - Sirolimus is the generic) isn't under patents anymore, so there's no big pharma that's going to pay for all the studies. In fact, even the one I mention above was for Everolimus - a cousin of Sirolimus that's owned by Pfizer.

 

Personally, I'm taking 1.5mg of Sirolimus, along with 8 oz of grapefruit juice, once every week. The grapefruit juice (according to a study on higher doses) increases bio-availability by 350%, so I'm theoretically getting 5.25mg. I also take 500mg of metformin and 9 supplements daily to support it.

Edited by Jaris, 13 January 2017 - 01:49 AM.

[maxwatt]

A certain New York doctor in his early sixties has been taking 6 mg, once a week, for a year  He will now prescribe off-label to his patients over 40 years of age, either his regimen, or 3 mg a week, or 6 mg every two weeks.  He is positive about his own results.  See Josh Mitteldorf's blog for more on this.

 

Again, no real testing to determine an ideal dose.  I believe the serum half life of rapamycin varies, but averages around 72 hours, so weekly dosing should clear it out of one's system for a time before a subsequent dose.  If one's CYP enzymes are inefficient due to a common genetic SNP variant, or depressed due to use of various phytochemicals, one might want to consider a longer interval between doses.

 

Another doctor, who has researched it, told me that mTORC1 is responsible for the desired effects, and that most of the undesired effects (mouth sores, compromised immunity, diabetes impotence etc.) are due to mTORC2; that it takes longer for rapamycin to affect mTORC2, so by taking intermittently in this fashion, one gets the desired effects without the nastier side effects.  Then the drug doesn't have time to affect mTORC2.  The first doctor's self-testing seems to bear this out. 

 

The suggested regimen for kidney patients is a "a 6 mg loading dose, followed by 1 mg daily, or as directed by the nephrologist."

 

I don't recommend trying to economize on dose by taking grapefruit juice.  Response varies greatly depending on individual genetics.  You may be getting double the effective dose, or four times.  Given malbecman's supplier cost being so low, I don't think we need to seek so desperately to scrape by on less..

 

I think that daily dosing may eventually result in side effects, such as mouth sores.  While I do not advocate taking rapamycin, I encourage anyone self-experimenting to get frequent lab testing, particularly liver function, A1C and blood lipids.  Standard stuff.  If it's working you should see improvement in various markers, and if it's causing damage, you might get an early warning to stop.

Edited by maxwatt, 13 January 2017 - 04:21 AM.

[maxwatt]

 As for another source, a very reputable supplier I've used from India for other compounds ((I"m a chemist) sent me this email when I asked if they could supply it:

 

We can not get that but please order from

aipctshop.com

they have it on their site.  and we know them to be a good firm

http://aipctshop.com...an-rapamune1mg/

 

Rapacan i believe is sirolimus

 

15 1mg tabs for $66 so that about $4.40 per pill.

 

Rapacan is Sirolimus manufactured by Biocon (India).  Rapimune is Sirolimus manufactured by Wyeth (India).  And Rocas Sirolimus is marketed by Emcure Pharmaceuticals, India and manufactured by Swiss Garnier Life Sciences in India.

 

This price is the best I've seen, so low I would be suspicious but for the fact that I trust and respect you, and you trust your source, who recommends this trusted source,  so I am sure it is good.  But can we verify?  Can I get it tested by a mass spectrometer for you?