21 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

I was told to take collagen supplements like hydrolysed peptides on an empty stomach to avoid it binding with other proteins. 

 

I also read this review on Amazon:

 

Have been taking L-Tryptophan for a while now, after experimenting with several different herbs and pharmaceuticals. Tryptophan is by far the most effective for my sleep maintenance issues, it puts me to sleep and keeps me asleep. Started with about 4g, for about a week, then 1g after that. Important to note, that if your body is fighting inflammation, try mixing the powder tryptophan to a tbsp of collagen in some warm water, this will help it pass the blood-brain barrier without competing with certain cytokines cause by inflammation, learned this trick from a biochemist names Steve Fowkes. If after taking tryptophan, you feel a litte "off" the next morning, most likely the culprit is your body producing inflammation cytokines, which compete with L-Tryptophan and the bi-product is toxins in your brain. I tried and boy does it work! Give it 15-20 min for the collagen protein bind with the tryptophan before drinking it. The mix will "cheat" and dodge the cytokines and go straight to your brain and knock you out! Your will wake up feeling refreshed the next day. I add a tablespoon of raw honey and tart cherry juice concentrate (for its anti-inflammatory properties). I sleep between 7 and 8 hours every night now, my back pain is gone as well! Try it, it works...

 

I'm trying to reconcile the two. I've read in other places about Steve Fowkes' recommendation. It doesn't say specifically which collagen peptide is the one its binding with. It also doesn't say whether or not it neutralizes the benefits of the collagen.

 

Ultimately the goal is quality sleep and increased serotonin, plus I don't want inflammation. 

 

I have glycine by itself, I wonder if that's the one.

 

It has been implied here and in other places that I can't seem to find again via google at the moment.

 

EDIT: I looked up who Steve Fowkes is, he doesn't have a good rep on science based medicine, which casts doubt on anything he's saying here.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 03 September 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[Groundhog Day]

Interesting. I've tried Tryptophan by itself and it doesn't work for me, nor does melatonin.

 

I might have to buy some collagen and see if it changes.

[Nate-2004]

The so called "toxins in your brain" this reviewer is probably talking about is kynurenic acid, a byproduct or metabolite of L-Tryptophan when broken down by what he talks about, IDO. I suspect that his hypothesis around the collagen mix is because it's a noncompetitive antagonist at the glycine site of the NMDA receptor, and glycine is what's found in large amounts with hydroxyproline in collagen peptide mixes.

 

This Steve Fowkes is a bit of a quack if you ask me but there's also a bit of truthiness to the things he says. Here's the full transcript of what he's talking about: https://www.bulletpr...-fowkes-part-2/

 

 

That’s because that enzyme, indoleamine dioxygenase, IDO, burns up the tryptophan and 5-hydroxytryptophan. Those byproducts are toxic for the brain. If you take that, you take that, you take the tryptophan and the 5-hydroxytryptophan, but two days later, a week later, and you mixed it with a protein, the collagen protein, and you take it and you don’t wake up with that next-day malaise, that means you have high IDO and inflammation and that collagen is sneaking it through your system.

Dave:             Wow, so for inflamed people, mixing 5HTP or tryptophan with collagen before bed is a better move. You want something …

Steve:            It’s a diagnostic technique, so you can actually diagnose inflammation by differential response with the collagen protein.

Dave:             So cool. If you’re inflamed, collagen is going to make you feel better the next day. If you’re not inflamed, you won’t get a hangover from it. This is really cool.

 

It's not exactly science though, it's straight hypothesis and he's touting it as fact.

 

I don't know if he's right or not, BUT, I did try it and as he says in the transcript, tryptophan does dissolve quickly in water if it is both hot and has collagen in it, more specifically I tried it with glycine. Tryptophan does not dissolve in water otherwise, so it's interesting that this part of what he's saying works. It also by contrast did not give me the hangover the next day, the headache or the brain fog. So... he's also right about that at least in one trial, tonight is the next attempt. I'm not going to do this often though.

 

I also don't know what this inflammation he's talking about is, I've yet to read about it. I assume it's related to the kynurenic acid that he doesn't mention. When people talk about toxins it's a red flag for me though.

 

He's an amateur like many of us, myself included, and I don't think his biochemistry degree gives him much credibility. That said, I'm still going to try this one more time.

 

I also learned that rosmarinic acid inhibits IDO, so... there's that info, useful or not. No idea whether or not that's a good thing, but its byproduct isn't so great.

Edited by Nate-2004, 05 September 2016 - 05:26 AM.

[stillwater]

I tried this last night, and as an extremely long term user of prescription tryptophan, I have to say this was the worst I've ever felt using it, lol.  I woke up feeling like I had been binge drinking all night.

 

But we're all different in our reactions, so just adding my 2 cents on mine.

 

 

One thing I've found gives a positive boost to l-tryptophan is to take it with a half teaspoon of honey and 500mg of flush free niacin on an empty stomach , but again that's just what's worked for me.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nate-2004]

The first night I tried it, Saturday night, I slept hard and fast for a good 8 hrs straight and felt clear headed and sharp on Sunday, then tried it again Sunday night and woke up midway through the night with heavy anxiety, my ET was worse and was unable to get back to sleep for at least an hour, then kept waking up periodically. I think this is something I should only do once a week. Serotonin I assume has a bad effect on essential tremor, exacerbating it greatly, because SSRI's and SNRI's do the same thing, cause me insomnia and the tremors worsen.

 

I'll try it with NA but not NAM, I like to keep my SIRT1 pretty active.

Edited by Nate-2004, 05 September 2016 - 11:09 PM.

[gamesguru]

How much are you taking?  4g is certainly a lot, and 1g is not small (especially on the daily). 

 

The person writing that review sounds overhyped and like he just tried tryptophan for the first time last night.  And fell in love.  Serotonin tolerance sets in quickly, as soon as a day, which is longer than this bloke probly waited before posting his two cents.

 

I really think tolerance plays a huge role at the 4g dose.  To alternate days, of 5-HT and GABA, is one idea for maintenance insomnia.  Because, serotonin tolerance also undoes itself quickly.  Or at least, two days per week (each once) of enhanced sleep can be provided under this regimen.  Maybe you could even skate by with theanine on a third day, but likely that counts as GABAergic.

 

But with valerian (GABAergic sleep aid), it seemed to make my sleep slightly unrestful (judging from a few times I took it).  It has good reviews in the literature, at least on slow-wave sleep, where it is recommended long-term maintenence:

We confirmed significant differences between valerian and placebo for parameters describing slow-wave sleep. In comparison with the placebo, slow-wave sleep latency was reduced after administration of valerian (21.3 vs. 13.5 min respectively, p<0.05). The SWS percentage of time in bed (TIB) was increased after long-term valerian treatment, in comparison to baseline (9.8 vs. 8.1% respectively, p<0.05). At the same time point, a tendency for shorter subjective sleep latency, as well as a higher correlation coefficient between subjective and objective sleep latencies, were observed under valerian treatment. Other improvements in sleep structure - such as an increase in REM percentage and a decrease in NREM1 percentage - took place simultaneously under placebo and valerian treatment. A remarkable finding of the study was the extremely low number of adverse events during the valerian treatment periods (3 vs. 18 in the placebo period). In conclusion, treatment with a herbal extract of radix valerianae demonstrated positive effects on sleep structure and sleep perception of insomnia patients, and can therefore be recommended for the treatment of patients with mild psychophysiological insomnia.

[Nate-2004]

I'm only taking 1.5g at most each time but I'm thinking I should keep it to once a week with this method. I agree with you about the reviewer.

 

GABA doesn't pass the BBB so I take GABA boosters like L-Theanine and Taurine at bed every night and I take L-Theanine a lot during the day. Trying to find a more affordable source, I posted in another thread about that.

[gamesguru]

I mean you just tried it once, and those were back-to-back days.. maybe you could get away with it twice a week?

 

If you're taking theanine and taurine all the time, watch out for tolerance city.  Maybe reserve them for closer to bed, unless they're beind used for anxiety issues.  There are a lot of options for GABA, which do cross the BBB... passionflower, kava, lemon balm, and valerian among the commoner ones.

[Nate-2004]

Yeah twice a week perhaps, like Sunday night and Thursday night or something. I've probably got a big tolerance now for L-theanine. It's been so useful. It has a very mild positive effect on my ET and clarity of thought and I do well at Improv when I take it before a show or practice or when I am playing Overwatch.  I heard kava makes you groggy and I've tried lemon balm, which is mild at best, valerian really does nothing to me, literally nothing. Not surprising given the little bit of inconsistent evidence supporting its use for pretty much everything. Lemon balm has the same active ingredient as Rosemary Extract, it's rosmarinic acid and I've been taking that for a while, it's not all that effective for anxiety or sleep.

 

The most effective anxiety treatment I've been using for over a year now are pro/prebiotics. They have a serious impact on overall anxiety for me, even lending a sort of consistent state of euphoria that hasn't really gone away since about 90 days after I began taking them. I added more and more prebiotics since then like glutamine, FOS, NAG, fish oil and soon, pomegranate extract.  It doesn't get all the credit, but it's played a significant role among other things in overcoming social anxiety especially. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 06 September 2016 - 03:06 AM.

[gamesguru]

It's really a kickass nootropic.  I think it's what makes my japanese tea so yummy and meditative, although youre no doubt getting more.  I've heard it said it only lasts 10-20 minutes, but I find that's hogwash.  More like 2 hours.

 

The problem with doing theanine and taurine all the time, is the GABA receptors become downregulated.  It's not a problem as long as you take it, but you will get mild withdrawals.  And you're kind of shot in the foot, because it's harder to get a sedating effect (typically seen only with higher doses) when your tolerance is wrecked.  With tryptophan you can take something like bacopa or lithium, to induce TPH2 and SERT, which helps regulate serotonin... but GABA reuptake is a trickier problem.  Probly best just to back down on the theanine & taurine.

Edited by gamesguru, 06 September 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I also take glycine at night with chamomile tea and honey, maybe I can just cycle that in and out for sleep. Not sure what I can do about l-theanine withdrawal if that happens to me. I wish there were a better way to achieve the same effect without building a tolerance.

 

Glycine has some consistently strong evidence, 3 studies according to examine.com, for sleep quality but apparently there haven't been enough studies to solidify it as fact yet.

[gamesguru]

Ginkgo is a glycine and GABAa antagonist, that would upregulate receptors during the daytime, when during sleep the activity goes above baseline.  So direct use of glycine, not the right idea.  Same thing with taurine and GABA, not the right approach (on its own).

 

Ginseng is a GABAb antagonist (paired ingeniously with ginkgo, you antagonise both GABA sites), and since I've run out of that and tea, I'm down to bacopa and ginkgo, and I've coincidentally noticed my sleep has taken a hit (without the ginseng, and now also without the tea it's even worse, but still livable).  Tea should be here any day, ginseng I'm going without September to jot down any irregularities.

 

The theanine withdrawal won't be bad, you can go 3200mg to 800mg in a day and be fine.

 

But the chamomile is just a weaker benzo, same problems as theanine, with dependence and tapering up.  The ginkgo and ginseng might help with the tolerance issues.

[Nate-2004]

Interesting, will look into that. I've only been taking 400mg of theanine at night for most of the year, only sometimes do I take it during the day or before improv and really only today did I use it (200mg) before playing Overwatch.

[Nate-2004]

I just looked into it and omg, I didn't know there was such strong evidence for so many things. Interesting. I found them both on bulksupplements, ginseng extract and ginko, but you use tea instead? How much is in the ginseng tea?

[gamesguru]

Lol, there's no ginseng tea.  It's green tea and ginseng.  Together with bacopa and ginkgo you have the fab four.  The green tea and ginseng are not interchangeable, tea is not a GABAb antagonist.  Ginseng is.  I'm just cycling off ginseng for a month, to see if any elevated parameters return toward baseline (e.g. attention span or sleep quality).  Just frivolous self-experimentation, an exercise in intellectual masturbation really.  People recommend bacopa a lot for sleep, but it's hit or miss, often with a strange stimulant-like effect.  Same with anxiety, bacopa can be calming and focusing like theanine, or it can be completely tensing and stupefying.

 

I'm using 120mg ginkgo, 150mg bacopa, 600mg ginseng, and 5g tea.  I'm on the red ginseng, currently.  Not that I prefer it to american ginseng, or have any reason to.  I have enjoyed both, without any noticeable difference.  But frankly, I have a lot of loose ends to tie up on my whole understanding of ginsenosides, before making an informed choice or recommendation.

[Nate-2004]

Cool thanks!

[Nate-2004]

Lol, there's no ginseng tea.  It's green tea and ginseng.  Together with bacopa and ginkgo you have the fab four.  The green tea and ginseng are not interchangeable, tea is not a GABAb antagonist.  Ginseng is.  I'm just cycling off ginseng for a month, to see if any elevated parameters return toward baseline (e.g. attention span or sleep quality).  Just frivolous self-experimentation, an exercise in intellectual masturbation really.  People recommend bacopa a lot for sleep, but it's hit or miss, often with a strange stimulant-like effect.  Same with anxiety, bacopa can be calming and focusing like theanine, or it can be completely tensing and stupefying.

 

I'm using 120mg ginkgo, 150mg bacopa, 600mg ginseng, and 5g tea.  I'm on the red ginseng, currently.  Not that I prefer it to american ginseng, or have any reason to.  I have enjoyed both, without any noticeable difference.  But frankly, I have a lot of loose ends to tie up on my whole understanding of ginsenosides, before making an informed choice or recommendation.

 

Ok so this combo is pretty incredible so far. Why is bacopa so difficult to get, especially in bulk? It's out of stock on powder city and not even available on the other two well known sites like bulksupplements and purebulk. It's rare on Amazon too. WTF?

[gamesguru]

The ginseng and tea or ginseng and ginkgo? The tea is a lot more invigorating, ginkgo is so subtle and behind the scenes (more than ginseng), but on a quiet day, down by the stream.. you can feel it working. I guess the non-caffeine stimulants of ginseng and ginkgo are a lot mellower and imperceptible.

I've noticed cumulative or residual "layover" synergy too, like if you run out ginkgo, as long as you have either tea or ginseng, it will almost feel like you're still taking all three.. for a few weeks or hopefully till you re-up.

Maybe everyone bought bacopa before school, or suppliers aren't harvesting for a few weeks? I usually experience no supply issues, but that's only one order per year lol. I don't even take much bacopa tbh, due to restlessness, irritibility, and mild muscle cramps (i think all 3 are cholinergic symptoms), I stick to like 3 days a week.. 150 or 200mg. The other three are stimulants and don't affect my mood at low doses.. the only major side effect is a facilitation of bowel movements, quite hard to ignore when you're downing three stimulants with a large breakfast, lol. But that's a small price to pay for improved (+20%) clarity of mind

[Nate-2004]

I haven't really bothered with the tea, this is ginseng, ginko, bacopa and l-theanine with coffee instead.

 

I've been taking a lot more bacopa than you apparently but haven't experienced the mood issues that you describe. I'm taking these as recommended by examine.com basically, although yeah maybe I won't take as much bacopa until it's more available.

[gamesguru]

Not everyone gets moody on bacopa.  A lot of caffeine also makes me irritable.  The delights of a cholinergic sensitivity.  Funny thing is I can get away with 240mg ginkgo and 3200mg ginseng without much problem.  Though, I usually hover closer to 120mg and 1600mg. 

 

Eventually I would get around to trying a quality tea, but really, you're paying for minor perks above & beyond theanine + caffeine (e.g. epicatechin).  You mentioned a shortage?  Seems these two suppliers are in stock.

• http://www.hardrhino...extract-powder/
• http://nootropicsdepot.com/bacopa/

[Nate-2004]

 

Not everyone gets moody on bacopa.  A lot of caffeine also makes me irritable.  The delights of a cholinergic sensitivity.  Funny thing is I can get away with 240mg ginkgo and 3200mg ginseng without much problem.  Though, I usually hover closer to 120mg and 1600mg. 

 

Eventually I would get around to trying a quality tea, but really, you're paying for minor perks above & beyond theanine + caffeine (e.g. epicatechin).  You mentioned a shortage?  Seems these two suppliers are in stock.

• http://www.hardrhino...extract-powder/
• http://nootropicsdepot.com/bacopa/

 

 

Thanks for the links, I'm not familiar with those sites and I tend to go with bulksupplements because of their consistent ratings on Labdoor. The first site you link doesn't mention the percentage, the second seems like a good deal just worried about the quality. I see they have a COA there but I like seeing brands tested on Labdoor. Some have a bad track record.

[gamesguru]

Sometimes I get ginseng from local specialty Asian markets, I'm sure you could find direct suppliers online too.  And another benefit of lower doses.. you don't have to get so caught up on lab tests.