29 replies to this topic

[lovaffect]

Hello. I have a close person that I'm desperately tying to help.
She has a severe depression, but the main symptoms are psychosomatic:

She has a heat sensation in her chest, literary, other people in the room may be cold, but she would lie with ice on her forehead and under rib cage. Emotional state is completely down.

 

She's twenty seven and has been taking antidepressants for six years now. They helped her for around 2 years.

She was good on amitriptyline at first, then were paxil and pirlindole (weak reversible maoi), quit that scheme because of weight gain, fluvoxamine-pirlindole, some other schemes with SSRI and SNRI.

 

The important point to note, she had an immediate response to antidepressants, literary with the first pill. Almost no any side effects, no emotional dullness, no libido reduction, no any typical SSRI side-effects, weight gain from paxil was the only exception.

She's been on diffident antidepressant treatments over the years.

Now she's switching ADs every day, or every 2-3 days. Some days without them.

They don't give her anything, mostly side effects, now she's getting emotional dulling from them, sort of suppression, they also give her severe headaches, stimulant kinds of ADs give more headaches.

She takes benzos to relive those. Now she's taking benzos everyday, arising tolerance is a scare.

 

Sometimes, after a break, some antidepressants give her irritated state. She yells at people, becomes insulting, etc. But when that happens, her heat in chest lessens. I believe it's the suppressed emotions go out.  She suffered lots of abuse in her life, in family from her sister, and in school. She used to suppress her emotions. But naturally she's very active, emotinal, lovable and prone to affection.

 

Pregabalin, baclofen, phenibut - these three are the only things that give her a relive, that she previously had from ADs. She takes lyrica or baclofen usually once a week. She's afraid of taking them more often, because she's afraid of losing last thing that gives her a relieve, short break from hell.

 

We tried nardil, Isocarboxazid, MDAI (selective serotonin releasing agent) - no any positive effects.

One idea was that she had down-regulated 5-ht2a and/or 5-ht1a receptors. I tried giving her SJW (read that it up-regulates both), but she couldn't bear the side effects.

I tried NSI-189 recently.(10-20mg phosphate 3-4 days). It gave her light headache and anxiety that benzos didn't help with. We had to stop it because of anxiety, no any antidepressant effect though.

Tianeptine (branded stablon), all nootrpics, phenylpiracetam, fasoracetam seem to worsen her symptoms, headaches. Modafinil - intense anxiety, also worsening.

 

Everything's going to suicide. She's tired of suffering, and no hope.

 

I'm trying to get ketamine now. There were two times, when she had an antidepressant spark from large doses of glycine. That gives idea that glyx-13/nrx-1074 may help, but they seem inaccessible.

 

Doctors are prescribing large doses of amitriptyline or trying to put her on antipsychotics, saying that heat is a delusion. She's completely intolerant of antipsychotics, feeling chemically chained, emotionally dead, akathisia, the same goes for normothymics.

[SFX]

Pumping even more damaging psydrugs going do destroy her brain. Good luck with polydrugging, you think you're smart, but you're not. Nobody really is, for sure not docs.

I guess she has somewhat destroyed serotonergic system in the ssri/mdma manner. Anxiety means serotonin overflow. Gaba agonists and benzos would worsen her condition badly for sure.

Amitryptiline inhibits serotonin reuptake, when one has destroyed serotonin transporter already this is plain stupid although should help to some degree due to 2A/2C antagonism.

If she isn't stable drug free serotonin antagonist should help. Best I know is Mianserin, it blocks anxiogenic serotonin receptors and doesn't further pump serotonin. It enhances 5-HT1A function. Although could cause blood dyscrasias, so watch out for flu/cold symptoms.

Don't know other antiserotonergic drug. Cyproheptadine is far worse, for people with ssri in their history could be paradoxically serotonergic due to antagonising already weak autoreceptor.

Better get some Mianserin, that's my advice, for sure it's better than all that garbage including SJW and other serotonergics. 

 

I feel you should read labels inversely. In her case "anxiolytic" = "anxiogenic with serotonin syndrome possibility" because she's has already damaged brain.

Edited by SFX, 13 October 2016 - 10:17 PM.

[lovaffect]

I've seen people here, who seem very educated, they were replying in the adjacent topics.
I realize that I'm gonna need probably years of researching to get to their level of understanding of brain chemistry.
I'll be posting updates here. I hope there'll be some person with any little bit of empathy who'll have something to say to help.

[SFX]

So you don't understand what is this all about then. 

 

Good luck though.

[Quaker32]

SFX, give her a break. What has she done wrong but come on here and ask for help?

[Quaker32]

Has she seen a good trauma therapist? This sounds like classic trauma-induced psychosomatic issues. She may need to work the psychological angle a lot harder or in tandem with drug therapy. 

 

A good boxing class sounds helpful as well. 

[SFX]

Seems like he doesn't want help, just looking for a magic recipe from big poster, kind of take some NAC, uridine, fish oil, then add ashwa and some funky peptide poured with rxpharma sauce.

First always goes thought which creates reality. This is old (and not widely known apparently) truth.

She has to find her safe space, peace take a break. Psycho is too soft imo, maybe later on. This is very personal, but I recommend quite vigorious cardio (forgot about it earlier) 40-50 minutes total, probably divided into "reps", no need for continuous treadmilling imo until "clearness in the mind kind of feeling". Physical exercises with purpose=recovery in her head.

Mianserin if she's really broken.

Edited by SFX, 16 October 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I wouldn't worry about broken brains. I poly-drugged for eight years because I couldn't find a diagnosis, and I was in unbearable pain the whole time. I took at least 60 pharmaceuticals, 20 recreational drugs, and 100 supplements during this time. And so it doesn't seem like it was my only resort, I did hours of meditation, yoga, tai-chi, weight-lifting, thousands in acupuncture, and other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting right now, Sometimes I'd be on 7 prescriptions at once. Why? Desperation of course. Pain will do that to you.

I recently figured it out and got my diagnosis. I am not longer in pain and I'm on a lot less meds. But it was a long road. Nonetheless, my brain is fine. How did it end up without a single bit of damage, despite doing ridiculous things at some points like getting high on 800mg of diphenhydramine? Expectation. I've learned that expectation, akin to some sort of placebo effect, has a huge effect on the mind, and if you believe that you'll be harmed, it's far more like that you will be.

 

It also helped that I found this place, back when it was ImmInst, and started learning. I quickly made it a point to know the receptor profile of every substance I put in my body, made sure I stayed safe, and then moved from here to eventually reading hundreds of white papers on pub med. So my intelligence in this subject increased while I was putting chemical after chemical in my body.

Now, that's not to advocate what I did. I did it out of desperation, in hopes of numbing the pain, and because, well honestly, the hope of finding something to cure me was the only thing between me and suicide. But I didn't destroy, nor even hurt my brain as a result, and I guarantee you OP's brain is fine.

Now, OP, before you go any further, it's time to start doing what I did. If you're gonna put something in your body, at least look up what it does on wikipedia. Spend three hours on Wikipedia getting familiar with the basic neurotransmitters Glutamate, GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin, and Norepinephrine.

Anyway, if you're having psychosomatic issues, there is a drug that can specifically treat that, but you might have a little bit of difficult getting it prescribed. It's an anti-psychotic called Mellaril. It's used in Russia and other countries to treat psychosomatic issues at doses of 50mg. This is compared to doses of 400mg-800mg to treat schizophrenia. Now the reason it maybe hard to get prescribed is that it's classified as a first-gen anti-psychotic. Normally, these can be quite neurotoxic over time, and are now given in only severe cases of schizophrenia. However, the receptor profile of Mellaril is much more like a 2nd gen, with a preference for the 5HT2a receptor of the D2 receptor, making it safer than any of the other 1st gens. Also, the dose will only be 50mgs, far less than the usual treatment doses.

This is my recommendation. I also recommend you stop throwing anything that sounds good at this problem and do some research first.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 17 October 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[lovaffect]

OneScrewLoose, hello, thank you for replying! It is helpful in terms of support and not loosing hope.

[jack black]

The OP should look at 5ht1a agonists and 5ht2a antagonists. Maybe in combination. Things like trazodone and Inspiron. There are also natural sources of those like ginkgo or inositol.

[Mind_Paralysis]

The OP should look at 5ht1a agonists and 5ht2a antagonists. Maybe in combination. Things like trazodone and Inspiron. There are also natural sources of those like ginkgo or inositol.

 

Ginkgo hits a lot of other receptors though - what's the binding-profile for bith Ginkgo and Inositol?

 

Also, I just realized something... the lady in question of this thread, she sounds definitely like if she's Borderline, however, the psychosomatics, aren't they more indicative of... HISTRIONIC disorder? I understand that those individuals actually have a lot of psychosomatic pain.

The rest of her profile doesn't fit histrionics, but there may be something there, because of the psychosomatic pain.

 

Sadly, it would appear as if Histrionic "Personality Disorder" (dear god... that's such an EMPTY and USELESS term...! it's all neurologic, for christ's sake!) is the least researched of all of the Cluster A disorders - the other two being Borderline and Narcissistic PD.

 

Now, when it comes to BPD, there are signs towards abnormalities in the Amygdala and PFC - the PFC ones are HIGHLY similar to the abnormalities in ADHD - both are inhibitory disorders - BPD seems to be more connected to aCh than DA though.

 

I'm coming up short when it comes to HPD though... do you guys know of any fMRI or PET-scans of HPD-brains? The only thing I can find, are references to a study wherein increased Norepinephrinergic activity was recorded in HPD brains... Which is rather interesting, because HPD-ers PANIC very easily, their mood-swings seems to have a slightly different tint to it then the BPD mood-swings - NE-overload could fit the profile.

 

The lady in question of this thread, she seems to be sweating when others are freezing... I freeze a lot, and I have LOW NE... could the feelings of heat be caused by excess NE as well? Strange that she would feel more pain though... Many people actually report a lessening of pain-perception from Norepinephrinergic substances - it invokes fight-mode, wherein pain-response is dulled, in order to KICK ASS! What many people report as well though, especially on Reboxetine and Atomoxetine, is enhanced tolerance to COLD! There are... SOME similarities between what this girl is going through, and enhanced NE...

 

 

Interestingly enough, this would then make HPD the PERFECT OPPOSITE to SCT!! 0__o My word... if they could control the excess NE, these people could GO ANYWHERE! DO *ANY*THING!

 

Too bad they can't control it... a bit like Schizo's with enhanced DA-transmission - in the predromal phase, there are quite a few Schizo's who are high-powered personas - highly driven, motivated, successful people - before the disease rips everything from them. If only I could subject a Schizo with white-matter-loss to Dihexa... if ONLY..!

[jack black]

Inspiron.

Sorry, I meant buspirone. Stupid autocorrect.

[lovaffect]

The lady in question of this thread, she seems to be sweating when others are freezing... I freeze a lot, and I have LOW NE... could the feelings of heat be caused by excess NE as well? Strange that she would feel more pain though... Many people actually report a lessening of pain-perception from Norepinephrinergic substances - it invokes fight-mode, wherein pain-response is dulled, in order to KICK ASS! What many people report as well though, especially on Reboxetine and Atomoxetine, is enhanced tolerance to COLD! There are... SOME similarities between what this girl is going through, and enhanced NE...

Quite interesting. When I was researching effects of pregabalin, I've seen suppression of NE-prelease. But that can't explain her good reactions to Milnacipran and some MAOIs. But again, maybe it's NE is some different places.

And also she doesn't respond to Gabapentin, gives her headaches, there's something that distinguishes it from lyrica.

[lovaffect]

The OP should look at 5ht1a agonists and 5ht2a antagonists. Maybe in combination. Things like trazodone and Inspiron. There are also natural sources of those like ginkgo or inositol.

 

Well, she tried them both separately, nothing... Buspirone, she doesn't like it. Ginkgo she took for blood thinning. But Inositol is interesting, I've seen post that it re-sensitizes some 5-ht receptors.

 

She has extreme social phobia, I didn't mention that. I have an idea to give her Clonidine to suppress NE-release. 

She has increased hunger and severe physical fatigue. Notably, Sibutramine does NOTHING to her hunger. She says she eats only for pleasure. 

 

One-day response to antidepressants is mentioned as a sign of future tachyphylaxis. This is exactly what happened, F*ck!

Edited by lovaffect, 04 December 2016 - 06:43 PM.

[jack black]

glycine

 

 

this is weird. glycine stimulates NMDA receptors and helps in schizophrenia. from the symptoms i thought there was too much stimulation already. maybe it's a weird presentation of schizophrenia after all?

 

besides, were hormonal and neurologic disorders ruled out (thyroid, adrenals, ovaries, pituitary, anti-NMDA receptor antibodies, brain tumors, etc)?
 

Edit: why did you edit the glycine out?

Edited by jack black, 04 December 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[lovaffect]

Edit: why did you edit the glycine out?

 

It appeared not that good as I initially described. I'll post the corrected reoprt.

Edited by lovaffect, 05 December 2016 - 07:10 AM.

[lovaffect]

She had pronounced positive reactions from taking Glycine, 2 or 3 times in the past. But to feel the positive effect, it needed a long break and upping the dose like 2 times the previous one.

Yesterday she took 2 grams of Glycine, at first, it made her feel profoundly better for about 1 hour, and after that, she said she again felt the depression and crying inside, but couldn't express it, very much like anti-psychotic effect.

Very complicated. I need help with this from somebody who knows!

Why it needs a break? Why upping the dose? Should I look for "NMDA agonists" or what? Maybe this is some downstream effects of glycine, or it metabolizes to something???

Edited by lovaffect, 05 December 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[jack black]

She had pronounced positive reactions from taking Glycine, 2 or 3 times in the past. But to feel the positive effect, it needed a long break and upping the dose like 2 times the previous one.

Yesterday she took 2 grams of Glycine, at first, it made her feel profoundly better for about 1 hour, and after that, she said she again felt the depression and crying inside, but couldn't express it, very much like anti-psychotic effect.

 

have you seen this?  http://schizophrenia.com/glycine.htm#

 

BTW, you haven't answered my question from my previous post.

 

you should look up anti-NMDA receptor antibodies: http://www.antinmdaf...r-encephalitis/

 

Also, Re: Heat intolerance

 

 

Causes

Excess thyroid hormone, which is called thyrotoxicosis, is the most common cause.^[1]

Other causes include:

• Amphetamines such as appetite suppressants
• Anticholinergics, which impair sweating
• Caffeine
• Menopause
• Multiple sclerosis
• Hypothalamic tumors^[1]
• Methadone treatment
• Dysautonomia^[2]
• Sensory defensiveness/Sensory processing disorder

 

schizophrenia can also cause Heat intolerance.

Edited by jack black, 05 December 2016 - 08:23 PM.

[lovaffect]

 

have you seen this?  http://schizophrenia.com/glycine.htm#

 

BTW, you haven't answered my question from my previous post.

 

 

I was going to but I forgot.  She's done all the tests possible, like hormonal, but except the exotic ones, like NMDA-antibodies, she'll try that one, thanks. all "physical" causes were excluded in the beginning by doctors.

 

I'm sure she does not have schizophrenia, but she may have underactive NMDA function, I have an idea of trying Sarcosine now.

 

 

... and 5ht2a antagonists.

 

What's the idea behind this? Aren't 5-ht2a already down-regulated from long-term SSRI treatment?

Edited by lovaffect, 07 December 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[jack black]

... and 5ht2a antagonists.

What's the idea behind this? Aren't 5-ht2a already down-regulated from long-term SSRI treatment?

You're right, this isn't relevant anymore.

[lovaffect]

Just thinking. If we consider SSRI effects, like "normal", then

it's down-regulation of pre-synaptic 5-ht1A, down-regulation of "bad" 5-ht2a, and probably 5-ht2c. It takes at least a week to happen, and then the person left with increased activaion of post-synaptic 5-ht1a, and down-regulated "bad" ones.

 

With our lady in question this is all completely different. What if the activation of 5-ht2a was beneficial to her instead? But I think it's all not about one receptor. If we go deeper to BDNF and phospholipase C, phospholipase A2, then it's all seem complete DARKNESS. 

 

But if I have had access to potent selective 5-ht1a agonists, like eptapirone and Befiradol, then it would've been a very very valuable experiment.

 

I struggle to get the idea of what are phospholipases.

Edited by lovaffect, 10 December 2016 - 08:28 PM.

[lovaffect]

She has her interest in psychedelics: psilocybin, DMT. I'm also interested. It's a chance to "touch" 5-ht2a receptors and find out are they really down-regulated or not. Try low dose, that is not inducing hallucinations.

 

It's surprising but I couldn't find information in the internet, whether psychedelics work after long-term treatment with serotonigeric ADs or not.

Edited by lovaffect, 13 December 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[jack black]

one guy took lsd with SSRI it it fried his brain so to speak. search the forum, it's here.

[SFX]

I was labeled as unfriendly, ill informed, etc.. funny. I thought it was a voice of reason.

 

I wouldn't worry about broken brains. I poly-drugged for eight years because I couldn't find a diagnosis, and I was in unbearable pain the whole time. I took at least 60 pharmaceuticals, 20 recreational drugs, and 100 supplements during this time...

So you should post that on pssd/benzo/propecia forums. Brain isn't invincible. However you have a point, thinking about damage makes harm. Post ssri/mdma sexual/cognitive dysfunctions with depression, anhedonia and god knows what more unfortunately are all very real.

 

then it would've been a very very valuable experiment.

You're to hasty and irresponsible op. You're going to fry her brain sooner or later. Serious serotonin toxicity guaranteed especially with ssris in her history, king of psychdelics lsd and attitude of you both.

 

Her brain needs a rest. Vigorious exercises, cardio and strenght training, meditation, clean diet possibly low-carb, psychotherapy, sunbathing and that kind of boring stuff. That is the answer. Why you both don't believe that her brain can work on his own without external stimuli? Does she really need tons of chemicals?

 

You can't run her brain on manual control.

Edited by SFX, 13 December 2016 - 10:57 PM.

[Quaker32]

What about lamotrigine for the NMDA weird stuff? Just a thought - please ask a professional. 

 

Is she getting any therapy or counselling? And just my opinion - the psychedelic experiment is a BAD idea. Asking for trouble. I wouldn't even drink if I was her. Also, there are reports of porn fucking people up on YBOP for example but don't know if you want to ask her about that.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I was labeled as unfriendly, ill informed, etc.. funny. I thought it was a voice of reason.

 

I wouldn't worry about broken brains. I poly-drugged for eight years because I couldn't find a diagnosis, and I was in unbearable pain the whole time. I took at least 60 pharmaceuticals, 20 recreational drugs, and 100 supplements during this time...

So you should post that on pssd/benzo/propecia forums. Brain isn't invincible. However you have a point, thinking about damage makes harm. Post ssri/mdma sexual/cognitive dysfunctions with depression, anhedonia and god knows what more unfortunately are all very real.

 

then it would've been a very very valuable experiment.

You're to hasty and irresponsible op. You're going to fry her brain sooner or later. Serious serotonin toxicity guaranteed especially with ssris in her history, king of psychdelics lsd and attitude of you both.

 

Her brain needs a rest. Vigorious exercises, cardio and strenght training, meditation, clean diet possibly low-carb, psychotherapy, sunbathing and that kind of boring stuff. That is the answer. Why you both don't believe that her brain can work on his own without external stimuli? Does she really need tons of chemicals?

 

You can't run her brain on manual control.

 

In general, I agree with you - the OP is being too hasty in his treatment-plans - and some kind of break from medications and a general improvement of health is needed - perhaps a clear change of environment - taking about two weeks off in a cabin in the woods.

 

However, depending on what type of disorder she has, then alas, she could very well need medication for life.

 

Of course, we DON'T actually know what her disorder is! She needs to go back to the Dr's and try to get a water-tight diagnosis - further research into her problems is needed.

[lovaffect]

You just do not understand. You want me to excuse.

 

And you strangely think that she's taking all the substances that I mention all together at the same time.

 

For some reason you don't understand the idea of sorting through drugs to find those that'll work for you.

 

And when you are not a typical case, when you do not fit in common diagnoses and you do not respond to drugs like most of the

population, then such a search is inevitable.

 

In fact if you were in my place, then you would do the same as me.

 

Or more probably you would hide behind statements like "this is impossible" or "this must be that way", hide behind the belief that the system "doctor-diagnosis-drug" is perfect and never makes mistakes. And with such a complicated and differentiated thing as human brain this is, to put it mildly, not reasonable. And you would give her to doctors to be killed with antipsychotics, ignoring everything you see and what she says, and say it's good, it's alright.

 

Suggestion to make a break from drugs is the same unreal.

She's taking SSRI and benzo. SSRI fell into tachyphylaxis. That happened long ago, ability to bear wore off, now the state is suicidal and unstable.  Adding withdrawal from any of those two on top of this = too much for human being.

I'm actually looking for something to make a break on. One week she was off ssri, taking L-tyrosine in the morning and benzos until tyrosine worn off. As well as I'm still looking for a good doctor.

 

Idea to treat MDD, BPD, etc. with running or weight lifting is just stupid.

As well as the statement in the begging that all problems come from drugs.

That lady was hospitalized with sort of a heart attack, diagnosed with myocarditis and something else, later those diagnoses did not confirm. That's when the disease, heat feeling and everything had started. She lied down for half a year disabled and only then she went to the shrink and got antidepressant.

She needs chemical solution first to become functional. And then the sport, therapies to express emotions, to scream and beat something, but nobody does that in here, therapists here only do the useless talking.

 

SFX, you're good at throwing accusations and saying destructive crap to desperate people. But you're greedy to share the knowledge. As I get it, your theory is that SSRI treatment causes the down-regulation of SERT, lost of molecules of SERT, and then the serotoninergic transmission is constantly enhanced. But I doubt on the second part, in my experience it seems that the longer you take antidepressants, the more tolerant you become to serotoninergic action, at least in my case.

 

Anyway, trying to have this discussion with all this animosity is naive on my part.

[lovaffect]

Mianserin does nothing when the sedation wears off and this happens very fast, after that it gives nothing. And withdrawal is extremely heavy, unless you up the dose and take more.

 

This is interesting, apart from the rude ugly unsupportive talking.

 

If I have a lost of significant number of SERT molecules and serotonin transmisson is constantly enhached, even without drugs.

 

Then why DO people have to take SSRIs constantly to have the anti-depressant effects?

Aren't anxiogenic receptors also down-regulated.

Some say that this is the main mechanism behind SSRI action.

Edited by lovaffect, 19 December 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

You mention that she's taken all sorts of tests, but has she seen an endocrinologist? A real expert at endocrine disorders?

Some of what you describe, could also be caused by some kind of benign tumour to her adrenal glands, or some other part of the endocrine system - have a look at those types of disorders, and see if you can find something that fits.

 

Not all of these tumours can readily be detected with the more common tests, you need special tests to find many of them. They are also quite rare, so not a lot of Dr's know to even look for them.

 

I'm currently too burnt out to help further, but hopefully you might find the idea useful at least.

 

 

Also, regarding what Jack_Black said about heat intolerance - he mentioned that tumour in the hypothalamus could cause similar thyroid disruptions - has she had a proper fMRI-scan? To check for abnormalities in her actual brain-structure - that could give valuable data, as tumours would show up there.

 

It's possible they would show up on a common CAT-scan as well, but I'm not a 100% on that.

[SFX]

I'm as rude as you're stubborn. Loss of the sert will cause more serotonin in the synapse only=desensitized receptors= neuron lower firing ratę. Maybe she had "plain" serotonin syndrome?(Heart, heat)
I'm as rude as you're stubborn. Loss of the sert will cause more serotonin in the synapse only=desensitized receptors= neuron lower firing ratę. Maybe she had "plain" serotonin syndrome?(Heart, heat)