88 replies to this topic

[odeja]

Yeah, I'm new. Great. Hi. Now on to my topic. ~_-

So, I discovered David Pearce's web of websites just recently, which marks my first proper contact with the topic of nootropics (and a few other subjects). Interesting stuff. Eminently clear and sober writing. He's also managed to get me sold on Selegiline (l-deprenyl). Mind you that when I'm "sold" it mostly just means I'll actually open up my mind to the possibility of trying it. Although the fact that I've actually ordered some of it may contradict that somewhat..

Anyway, I'll continue to be wary of this substance until the moment when I pop my first pill, and after that.. but maybe this thread will make me a bit less wary, and hopefully more informed.

I'll just start asking. Will the fact that I'm 19 years of age pose a problem? I've been thinking about aiming for a 5mg per day routine. I know that some people would probably much prefer it if I didn't even break the 1mg mark. Yeah, well, I'm worried, too, so I may well end up doing that, but please note that I'm looking for stronger motivation, mood and a means of battling some really irritating anxiety tendencies, perhaps somewhat at the expense of the optimal dosage needed for the potentially life-extending effects if need be. Maybe I'll start out with the small dose, and then fade in from 1mg per day to 5mg (or less if it feels sufficient) per day over the course of a week. How's that idea? I'm saying as little as a week, because I'm assuming right now that MAO Type B inhibition sets in and starts working at full capacity after just a few hours (source). Tell me if I've gotten bad info on that front. And sure, it wouldn't pose a problem to make it two weeks instead.

Also, I hope I haven't bought some wild mutant versions of Selegiline here, although I don't consider that very probable. From two different sources, Good Health Pharmacy and Healthy Choice Pharmacy, I got:
"SELGIN (Selegiline, Eldepryl)" (5mg tablet form)
Now, I'm hoping that Selgin isn't Russian for "Haha, you're screwed now!" I'm also hoping that these guys are planning to deliver (not that they have broken their deadline or anything). The convincing way to know if they are would be, of course, if anyone of you could tell me you have actually gotten anything from any of these these two. The most startling thing for me, in retrospect, is how similar the names of the two shops are. But, err, that says or proves nothing, so never mind. Also, the chances of these tablets not containing the advertised 5mg in favor of some other random amount is obscenely tiny, right?

Back to the substance at hand, I have another question. Should I be unresponsive to a dose of 1mg, can I consider it indicative of the levels of dopamine and/or phenylethylamine present in my brain? If so, what levels would those be? Sorry for asking in a bit of an avoidant fashion, but I just don't want to jump right to the conclusion that nonresponsiveness means it will be safe® when my knowledge is as limited as it is. One interesting thing is that David Pearce created in himself a 40%-70% increase in synaptic dopamine via a 2 x 5 mg daily Selegiline intake, and was apparently none the worse off for it. With these big numbers in mind, could I get an explanation of what "too much dopamine" really means? That seems like a really important thing to understand.

Some miscellaneous, speculative-and-unverified-as-hell reasons why I'm optimistic about this drug have to do with self-observations regarding the wanting/liking axis, the suggestion that behavior (such as some kind of passivity) can substantially affect dopamine activity over time and the fact that I more and more quite simply seem to exhibit traits that suggest low dopamine levels. But on the other hand, I may be minimally biologically deviant, and I suspect Selegiline could add something valuable nonetheless, crucially without clouding any part of the intellect, even to a 19-year-old's mind. I know my intellect is clouded now.. but that may be because it's very late... *yawn*

[odeja]

Thanks for the reply. Hmm, yeah, if someone actually can conjure up some scientific data on why/how my age might be a (relative) contraindication, that would be nice. Of course, I'm looking for it myself, though I'm not that versed regarding exactly where to go for such information.

Despite intructions, wouldn't starting low and working my way up be the sound course of action if I want to avoid too great an immediate influx of dopamine (and whatever that might entail)? Edit: Also, unless I've missed something, wouldn't it also be crucial that I start low since Selegiline is an irreversible MAO inhibitor, and thus I wouldn't feel any changes (at least not for a long time) if I started high and then proceeded downwards? Seems like an inefficient way to find my right dosage.

And thanks for the URL. Looks solid (Edit: Except I can't register, because whoever made the registration form forgot that some countries can have a 4-digit "zip" postal code, and is thus keeping me from registering). The reason I trusted the two sites I mentioned is because they are on HedWeb's list.

Edited by odeja, 13 January 2006 - 09:09 PM.

[meatwad]

I was taking 5mg a day deprenyl for about a week. After this week I wanted to crash the punding wagon. My ability to memorize information had dropped significantly, so i had to cut back.

I probably have naturally high dopamine, so any more and the supplement becomes a "dumb drug" for me, homework wise. Of course, I believe dopaminergics to be vital for "winning personalities" whether you get yours from caffeine (dirty drug) or from somewhere else is up to the individual.

[power.bulls.x]

it is sad that there is only deprenyl to enhence your dopamine safly.

[johnmk]

Caffeine has a little bit of dopaminergic activity.

[power.bulls.x]

Caffeine has a little bit of dopaminergic activity.

i do realy dont like mutch cafeine cause it has diuretic effect and makes me more prone to cramping as a recreational power lifter. [thumb]
you cant use mutch cafeinne/day without :bradicardia or tachicardia cant remember witch one.

[tadfish]

whats Deprenyl like for a person that actually has bad ADHD that stimulant drugs like ritalin and dexies calm be down and do not stimulate me at all. more of a depressant effect.

[meatwad]

YMMV!

If you do end up ordering some you should share your experience.

[DukeNukem]

I take 2.5mg every other day, and will do so until I'm 50, when I'll bump up to 2.5 two days on, one day off...repeat. Then at 60-70 I'll take 2.5 every day. And continue to increase each decade in this manner. Taking it below the age of 30 is probably quite unnecessary, and you'd need to take an extremely lose dose.

I've talked to two knowledgeable doctors about this program, and they all agree it's both safe and effective for my purposes. Paul Wakfer also recommends this program of dosage progression: http://morelife.org/

[zoolander]

da_sense said:

Being 19 old I wouldn't really recommend taking selegiline yet. If i was you I'd wait at least till 21.

What sort of comment is that? Wouldn't a recommendation not to take deprenyl at 19 be based on one being so young and hence not needing the deprenyl? If so, then what is the difference between 19 and 21?

da_sense said:

I have no scientific data to back this up, but again you're still young to mess with your dopamine specially if you don't really suffer from any impairment.

If you have no scientific data to back your comment up then what are your recommendation based on? You are talking about a pharmacuetical here, hence I do not think you should be making recommendations.

da_sense said:

If you still do decide to go with deprenyl, i'd start with 5 mg daily for a week and then drop to lower dosage. This is what original instructions says, start higher then go lower. Otherwise you won't feel anything from 1mg daily at first.

These instructions are not written for teenagers. They are written for people with Parkinsons disease or written to advise on how to minimise the risk of Parkinsons disease.

Odeja in your first post:

I'm looking for stronger motivation, mood and a means of battling some really irritating anxiety tendencies, perhaps somewhat at the expense of the optimal dosage needed for the potentially life-extending effects if need be.

Do you believe you are dopamine deficient? Be careful of taking deprenyl as it potentiates the dopamine response. Neurotransmitters work in tonic balance. If you push the balance too far one way you may suffer from a dopamine-related syndrome. For example a deficit=depression and/or excess=schizophrenia.

Please be weary of playing around with pharmaceuticals. Please be weary about taking advice off strangers about what dosage you should be taking.

Have you looked at other factors related to motivation, mood and means of battling irriating anxiety tendencies?

For example;

Motivation and your mood states are often affected by your perception of the world. Would it be fair to say that pessimists tend to be not as motivated and sad compared with optimists that tend to be more motivated and happier?

A dopamine system agonist, such as deprenyl, may contribute to your anxiety. It is interesting to note that you refer to your tendancy to anxiety as irritating. I would have a think about that if I was you. Perhaps working out an effective way to deal with your anxiety that doesn't involve supplements may be a safer option first.

Your motivation, mood and anxiety may not be chemically based.

There is also the mention of deprenyl's "life-extending" effects. The life-extending effects of deprenyl are related to its ability to increase the activity of antioxidant enzymes in specific brain regions thus protecting these areas from wear and tear.

So are you looking at using deprenyl to correct some sort of cognitive deficit or to protect the brain regions from age-related (free-radical damage theory) cognitive deficits?

You need to ask many questions. IMO when talking about health and longevity all a healthy 19 year should be focusing on is maintaining a healthy nutritous diet with physical activity to keep what they have for longer.

Edited by zoolander, 29 April 2006 - 07:33 PM.

[power.bulls.x]

i am wondering about : having nice dopamine levels all your life might not be the perfect choice:
-the 40 others neurotransmitters are likely to not stay the same levels .
-im point of view health = balanced levels of all the neurotransmitter.

but the fact is that dopamine is suposed to do great at leaving you healthy. and make mouse life longer. i would take carnitine or ALCAR to offset radical from increasing dopamine : cause it doesnt always increase SOD the way we want.

[power.bulls.x]

Now, I'm hoping that Selgin isn't Russian for "Haha, you're screwed now!"

funy to see americans even after cold war to be scared from russian . [lol] kind of strange side effect of holywoods movies may be ?

[carnosine]

zoolander why are you attacking da sense? He is free to give his thoughts and opinions. Lay off the deprenyl man.

[zoolander]

Isn't that obvious. I stated it in my post.

I don't believe it is an attack of a personal nature. I would comment the same way if you responded like that as well. I will challenge anyone who recommends pharmaceuticals without foundation. The response from da_sense seems to be a recommendation with no foundation.

Yes he is free to give his thoughts but so am I. If I believe someone is acting irresponsibly I will speak up.

da_sense, no offence intended but if you are going to give advice/recommendations to a newby, please be careful. I'm not picking on you in particular but just think we should all be a little bit more careful.

Shit, read the other posts on deprenyl disasters.

Does anyone agree with my stance here?

[doug123]

[quote name='carnosine']zoolander why are you attacking da sense? He is free to give his thoughts and opinions. Lay off the deprenyl man.[/quote]

Once again, carnosine, your grammar is off, and you are continuing to use cliches.

Did you mean to say:

Zoolander: (note I used a colon to clarify whom I am addressing) why are you attacking da_sense?

Now here is a logical error: you do not clarify how Zoolander is "attacking" da_sense. Maybe Zoolander is attacking da_sense's argument because it is not substantiated by any scientific references.

"Lay off" is a cliche. Those of us with a decent command of the English language tend to frown upon the use of such literary...defaults.



[quote name='http://www.ljlseminars.com/apr2005.txt']Cliches are short, trite phrases that refer to commonly held ideas but have lost their originality owing to overuse. "Look on the bright side" is one example of a cliche.  Here are several others:

- Live and learn.
- What goes around comes around.
- Don't worry, be happy.
- Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
- Every cloud has a silver lining.
- It could be worse.[/quote]

[carnosine]

Adam? I though you were banned?

[doug123]

Banned no more, Eddy. I had to bribe the Leadership with heavy metals. I tried to negotiate with methylestosterone, and they said that was not neurotoxic enough...so I had to give them pure lead.

I am off to the gym now. Should I have someone take another picture of me after I work out so you can make another Myspace profile on my behalf? This time I might wear a wife beater so the ladies can have more to look at...

[zoolander]

da-sense said:

You quoted me saying that i personally believe he shouldn't be taking deprenyl and then attack me for advising usage of it?

I said:

da_sense, no offence intended but if you are going to give advice/recommendations to a newby, please be careful. I'm not picking on you in particular but just think we should all be a little bit more careful.

I should have said that my attack was not personal.

da_sense said:

What drugs are you on (i want some btw smile.gif )?

come on matey....don't get personal.

da_sense said:

When I said i have no scientific data i meant i have no references here.

Can you please look for the references and provide them to me or at least point me in the direction of some references.

My comment was based on common knowledge that someone who's 19 should be taking drugs like selegiline on his own.

Where does your common knowledge come from? Who is it common knowledge to? And do you mean should or shouldn't be taking drugs like selegiline on hos own?

Why to wait at least 21? Because he'll be fully developed physically and more mentally than 19.

I disagree. In most situations, people are fully developed by the age of 19. So waiting until 21 should not make a difference. Where it may make a difference is when you are referring to the level of maturity.

I also quoted manufacturer insert on dosing. Odeja wanted to feel effects, from my own experience and those of others (i've got numerous feedback on deprenyl from customers) 1mg daily will usually not be felt.

As I mentioned the manufacturers insert is not written as directions for a healthy 19 year old. I am 34 years old and feel an effect from 1mg. I felt this from day 1. My partner is 28 years old and 1mg of deprenyl can cause anxiety for her. So, the effects of 1mg can be felt.

You also mentioned

i've got numerous feedback on deprenyl from customers

The fact that you sell deprenyl is a dangerous conflict of interest. CONFLICT OF INTEREST! You do not provide scientific references when talking about a perscription medication and use "common knowledge". Seriously, now that I look back on it da-sense, I have gone easy on you and simply asked for you to back up what you say.

If you read my older posts you'll see i put a disclaimer numerous times saying that i'm not a doctor and my comments or advices are just my personal opinions on the matter and also that i sell deprenyl and my opinion might not be 100% objective.

It was Odeja 2nd post. What do you think the chances of them seeing your previous post and disclaimer is? I did not know that you sell deprenyl and have not seen any disclaimer. I have been active here for nearly a year.

A disclaimer should have been posted at the top of your reply. It should have been the first thing that you said to this person. That would be the responsible thing to do.

Many here take prescription drugs on it's own and they discuss it freely

I am aware that many people discuss their use of perscription drugs freely and many people have also discussed serious side effects resulting from taking perscription drugs here as well. I am concerned about this and as a knowledgable person, am doing my best to instill a little bit of responsility into the forums. It is because I care. Each and everytime I read about an overdose about someone who has suffered some serious side effects as a result of taking something irresponsibly, it freaks me out.

why suddenly you have something against me

I do not have something against you, I something against your approach. You are making this personal. You are simply a person delivering, what I consider a potentially problematic message.

This is not personal and for me it will never get personal. Actually, alot of the time I try and be as diplomatic as possible with my approach so people won't take it personal. Essentially, I have to pussy foot around with what I really have to say in case people take it the wrong way.

This is not personal da_sense.

I think most members here would agree on this with me.

I am a full member and disagree with your approach. However, I do not believe your intentions are bad but wish to point out some potential problems with the way you might be coming accross.

[scottl]

Zolander,

Da Sense is and has been one of the most level headed people on this board. IMHO your tone is inappropriate.

Why anyone except in specific circumstances is taking it under 40 years or perhaps under 30 years of age....I wonder, but that can be said without resorting to hostility.

[scottl]

"Being 19 old I wouldn't really recommend taking selegiline yet. If i was you I'd wait at least till 21"

The first thing he tells them is not to take it for 2 years. Wow I'm sure that will effect his profits right now.

My credential are irrelevant to this discussion.


"Scott you should know that suggesting to a 21 year old to take deprenyl"

"Why anyone except in specific circumstances is taking it under 40 years or perhaps under 30 years of age....I wonder,'

[doug123]

I always get stressed out when I hear folks giving "blanket" nootropic prescriptions...especially with potent psycho-pharmaceuticals. This is what I hear (more or less): "oh, so you are interested in nootropics, eh? Let's start you out with 5 mg of deprenyl!" I am sorry, but that is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Is the individual in good health? What if the patient already has enough dopamine? What other medications are they taking? These are the first issues that should be addressed before going forward and giving any medical advice; no matter how medically sound the advice may be.

In my experience, I would say that at least 50% of folks interested in "nootropics" are individuals with ADD / ADHD or some kind of depressive disorder. I have spoken with several of my customers that take as many nootropics as I do -- and suggested that they request a sample of strattera, provigil, or (if these do not work) d-amphetamine from an MD; and after they try one of these, they seem to forget about nootropics and are more interested in curing whatever deficit they might have.

The other ~50% of folks interested in cognition enhancement should recognize before they begin exactly what neurotransmitter systems they are messing with; and how enhancing one or the other might affect them positively or negatively -- so they know what the side effects are and how to recognize them. Often, in discussion boards like this one -- with vendors waiting for any opportunity to sell you their product -- the credibility of the information you get is absent...that is why I must say I agree with Zoolander's approach.

I think Zoolander did a fine job addressing some serious concerns...taking blind, unsubstantiated advice from on-line nootropic vendors would certainly bring in the issue of bias...also: the vendor in question also sells anabolic steroids (which are illegal for good reason) to anyone with cash on hand -- so otherwise innocent teenagers trying to max out their batting average thinking "hey, Mark McGuire did it, he's okay, so maybe I should try it too..." -- can easily access it...steroids have a host of terrible long-term side effects. So that also bring in the question of ethics of that individual selling such products. I am not saying that da_sense is a bad person; just that you should take his or her advice with a grain of salt.

[quote name='http://espn.go.com/special/s/drugsandsports/steroids.html']What are the health hazards of anabolic steroids?
"There can be a whole panoply of side effects, even with prescribed doses," says Dr. Wadler. "Some are visible to the naked eye and some are internal. Some are physical, others are psychological. With unsupervised steroid use, wanton 'megadosing' or stacking (using a combination of different steroids), the effects can be irreversible or undetected until it's too late." Also, if anabolic steroids are injected, transmitting or contracting HIV and Hepatitis B through shared needle use is a very real concern.



Additionally, Dr. Wadler stresses that "unlike almost all other drugs, all steroid based hormones have one unique characteristic -- their dangers may not be manifest for months, years and even decades. Therefore, long after you gave them up you may develop side effects."


Physical side effects

Men - Although anabolic steroids are derived from a male sex hormone, men who take them may actually experience a "feminization" effect along with a decrease in normal male sexual function. Some possible effects include:
Reduced sperm count
Impotence
Development of breasts
Shrinking of the testicles
Difficulty or pain while urinating
Women - On the other hand, women often experience a "masculinization" effect from anabolic steroids, including the following:

Facial hair growth
Deepened voice
Breast reduction
Menstrual cycle changes
With continued use of anabolic steroids, both sexes can experience the following effects, which range from the merely unsightly to the life endangering. They include:
Acne
Bloated appearance
Rapid weight gain
Clotting disorders
Liver damage
Premature heart attacks and strokes
Elevated cholesterol levels
Weakened tendons

Special dangers to adolescents
Anabolic steroids can halt growth prematurely in adolescents. "What happens is that steroids close the growth centers in a kid's bones", says Dr. Wadler. "Once these growth plates are closed, they cannot reopen so adolescents that take too many steroids may end up shorter than they should have been."


Behavioral side effects
According to Dr. Wadler, anabolic steroids can cause severe mood swings. "People's psychological states can run the gamut." says Wadler. "They can go from bouts of depression or extreme irritability to feelings of invincibility and outright aggression, commonly called "'roid rage. This is a dangerous state beyond mere assertiveness."


Are anabolic steroids addictive?
Recent evidence suggests that long-time steroid users and steroid abusers may experience the classic characteristics of addiction including cravings, difficulty in stopping steroid use and withdrawal symptoms. "Addiction is an extreme of dependency, which may be a psychological, if not physical, phenomena," says Dr. Wadler. "Regardless, there is no question that when regular steroid users stop taking the drug they get withdrawal pains and if they start up again the pain goes away. They have difficulties stopping use even though they know it's bad for them."[/quote]

[zoolander]

Da Sense is and has been one of the most level headed people on this board.

I do not doubt that da_sense is level headed and agree that da_sense is an assest to the forums here at Imminst but that still does not mean I cannot point out what I think are holes in his recommendations.

I beleive I have valid points in my posts. Do you agree or disagree?

The points are targeted at an approach and not a person. It is not personal. I cannot stress this enough

IMHO your tone is inappropriate.

Inappropriate in what way?

What is "my" tone?

If it is "my" tone then I think the labelling of the "tone" or setting of the "tone" is done by me. The tone of my replies is one of my concern. If the tone of my replies has been read any other way then there has been a communication breakdown, hence my explanation. Look, I am doing my best to resolve the problem of communication breakdown. I have tried to explain that this not a personal attack a few times already but people do not seem to be reading the words.

Scottl, is the "inappropriate tone" you refer to related to an apparent attack on da_senses character? As I mentioned many times, this is not a personal attack.

Additionally, just because someone is considered one of the most level headed people on this board, does this mean I do not have the right to comment on their approach?

I welcome any feedback on my comments but at the moment the only feedback on my comments have to do with some sort of personal attack on da_sense that doesn't exist. Lets talk about the validity of my comments not the tone.

Do you think my comments are valid or invalid?

Scottl, I feel that you have taken this personally as well. You seem to be stepping in on da_senses behalf and taking sides. Is that true?

I will say it again "this is not a personal attack on da_sense". If anyone else wants to read it any other way then I can't stop then. I'm done with defending myself and am satisfied that my intentions are not malicious.

Da_sense, I sincerely apologise if my appraoch came accross as a personal attack. I meant no harm and was merely giving you some advice

[scottl]

Zoolander,

You can say not personal all you want but when your choice of words/punctuation speaks a certain way, it says otherwise e.g.

"What sort of comment is that?

I know prometheus' country or origin so I am aware he grew up with different standards then people in the US. I'm not sure what standards where you are/grew up are like, but those are at a minimum criticizing unfriendly words i.e. you could express skepticism, and indeed having read your posts for a while, I do not remember posts in this flavor before.

As far as De Sense, I have no financial interest, I have corresponded with him several times, including on the topic of our multiple personality friend and believe that he is honest and reliable. Though he sells stuff as far as I can tell, he only advocated what he has used personally and believes in. Not of course that you have to agree with that. But I really dislike that backlash that this is an example of, and even if you wish to say you don't agree surely you can find something better then:

""What sort of comment is that? "

The funny thing is that I agree with your basic points though the way you said it was extremely distasteful.

Which leads me to wonder have you made posts like this before and I just didn't notice (lots on the board i don't read) or I really have to wonder if the imminst gestapo have...effected you.

[zoolander]

"What sort of comment is that?"

It is an innocent question asking to justify a comment that appeared to be unusual

Being 19 old I wouldn't really recommend taking selegiline yet. If i was you I'd wait at least till 21.

In the context of the topic don't you think that that is unusual?

[Brainbox]

Voila, the benefits of nootropics ..... [8)]

Let's become irrationally agitated and start chemical induced (flame) warfare as a hobby.

[cry]

[scottl]

"What sort of comment is that?"

It is an innocent question asking to justify a comment that appeared to be unusual



In the context of the topic don't you think that that is unusual?

It may be a case of text on the page without benefit of any vocal inflection being able to be taken several ways. The first way that came to my mind was hostile but I guess I can see how it could be meant otherways.

In any case read this thread;

http://www.mindandmu...topic=23508&hl=

Under 20 year old asks for nootropic stack. Three of us point out he does not need nootropics he just needs to sit down and do what he needs to do. But of course read COlin's response:

A fairly basic yet comprehensive stack IMO would be piracetam and Neurostim,you can still get the latter at DPSnutrition.

I wouldn't mess around with any kind of stimulants besides coffee,but deprenyl may also help.I'd certainly try the pir+nero before adding depreynl though.

So it ain't what I would advocate, but ain't 7 standard deviations from the mean, or because De Sense if trying to make money.