88 replies to this topic

[doug123]

Bad judgement on my part, eh?

Dr. La Londe: okay, sorry I'll watch out from here. All I stated was my opinion. Such I be muffled from my opinion and hold it back just because someone happens to be selling something? That wouldn't be too intellectual, in my opinion.

Dr. La Londe: can you please clarify your medical position on the use of steroid type compounds?

We are way off topic, I would be happy to drop it altogether.

edited to remove possible sources of negativity.

Edited by nootropikamil, 03 May 2006 - 05:45 AM.

[jaydfox]

This has been relevant with AORsupport, Pete and now these two. I REALLY dislike big brother who of course knows better then I do, deciding what is good for me. Identify them as vendors, let them speak their peace and people can be their own judge. Unless you wish to ban them both, whcih is silly.

As I hope I made clear in my post, selling nootropics while advising on them IS a clear conflict of interest, BUT that doesn't mean we have to stop it. A life insurance salesman has a pretty clear conflict of interest when advising his clients on life insurance policies, but hey, that's the way the industry works. The key point is that the conflict of interest be noted. It doesn't need to be stated in so many words

Name: Edward Younan
Conflict of Interest: President of Unique Nutrition, a bulk reseller of nootropics.

But the association or other situation that is the conflict of interest should be disclosed, ethically.

And yes, Adam, you're dishing out quite a bit, and it's getting to the point that I'd like to see some disclosure of who you are, what company you run, etc. You're not just a person with an interest in nootropics; you have your own conflict of interest to disclose.

[doug123]

At this point, I don't even want to sell nootropics. I have not once asked for anyone's business here - at least since I re-started. I might go crazy again if I get too obsessed with nootropics; and I don't want that.

I don't even ship out my own orders anymore because I really want to go to school. Dealing with this whole mess has been distracting. Shane AKA Oversoul711 is managing the business at this time. He is managing the entire inventory, shipping, etc. At this time, we don't sell any encapsulated products as our working capital is still too low; in my opinion, at least. An affordable capsule run is only at 100,000 per product, and I just can't afford that right now.

I asked Shane to come into this forum and say what's up to everyone and that he's handling orders, but there is no pressure for him to do this, so I guess he has not.

If anyone wants to buy a USED Torpac profill 100, let me know. I'll sell it for real cheap. I don't ever want to see that thing ever again -- it gives me nightmares.

Peace -- and Scott -- I wasn't trying to be rude. I know during the LM thing it was hard to interpret what was going on -- I myself had doubts at times. I just went with my gut feeling. Sometimes my gut is wrong. I am not perfect, I do not think anyone is.

[scottl]

Adam I just erased a nice long post.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. This still doesn't mean the steroid hysteria above is credible, it ain't.

[doug123]

Scott: you are one of the kindest -- and most helpful -- people here. I thought you would understand my concern that some people might think it is cool to take steroids because they are as safe as nootropics -- but they are not.

Holding an opinion is not attacking. Holding strong to an opinion is something a lot of people are unable to do, unfortunately. Most people do something call waffling.

Let's test your logic in the real world, Scott.

So if Dick Cheney and George Bush (our dear friends) come into this forum, I can't say my opinion about the oil business? Because they are competitors?

Dude, from what I hear, da_sense does a damn good job taking care of business. It's like me and 1fast -- I do not dislike him or tell people he is a bad person --in fact, when he has the product I want at the best price, I would use and recommend his service. In the old days, however, our back and forths looked like a straight sh*t fight.

Both of these individuals take damn good care of their customers -- we all know that. But if I see something I think is wrong -- like selling steroids to minors or pretending they are safe as nootropics -- I feel obligated to say it. I am not asserting I am free of fault or perfect -- hell, I have done stuff that's probably as risky as steroids -- crack and meth are certainly not exactly -- "healthy;" but if I see one of my buddies smoking tweak now, I fuc&ing kick their ass.

I do admit my approach was VERY VERY wrong at times -- especially with Mat-pal and that subultiamine topic last year. I was out of my mind with that approach. I was out of my mind much of last year, and it is just plain scary. I have so many apologies to make that I probably forgot one or two.

It it just coincidental that the most assertive folks in these forums tend to be selling something?

Edited by nootropikamil, 03 May 2006 - 03:14 AM.

[scottl]

Adam,

There are several galaxies between saying:

"I thought you would understand my concern that some people might think it is cool to take steroids because they are as safe as nootropics -- but they are not. "

Which is a resaonable statement. and

I think steroid abuse is possibly among the most dangerous type of drug abuse one can engage in -- probably at least as bad as crack

Which is totally false. This last statement is not factual and a clear appeal to the emotions. If you believe it is true (which is what it sounds like) then you are speaking without sufficient knowledge. If you don't really believe it, and just said it to inflame people....that's not much better either.

[doug123]

I don't ever say anything to inflame people. I usually say the first thing that comes to mind -- which is not always the best way or correct way to say something.

I am not an expert on steroid type compounds. If people choose to engage in such activity -- that is their choice. I think every individual is entitled to be presented as much information as possible about the possible risks and side effects of any activity they may engage in. I am out of this forum tonight. I still feel bad vibes in the nootropic industry.

Peace.

[doug123]

I am not against taking drugs to increase physical or mental performance -- but those which might endanger my life or quality thereof I do my best to avoid.

Modafinil is a schedule IV substance in the USA. However, I possess a prescription to take this drug. Modafinil has been in clinical use (as adrafinil) since (I believe) the early 1980s. There is no evidence that seems to suggest there are any relevant long or short term side effects. Also: modafinil is over the counter in many countries -- such as Mexico -- where benzodiazepines (schedule IV in the USA) are illegal to posses without a prescription.
Anyone considering dabbling in steroids should probably evaluate this link before engaging:

http://sportsci.org/...nabstereff.html

Da_sense: I think your signature is very sarcastic -- at least it comes off that way. I think it would be a more clear indication of your position if you could place a link to your store in your signature. The implications would then be self-evident. Not every reader of these forums scans each of your posts before purchasing.

Also: your comments are misleading: possession of steroids is -- illegal

The federal and state laws can be extremely complex, but I can give you some basics:

1. Possession of a scheduled substance without a prescription is definitely illegal.
2. First offense for possession of a schedule III substance (federally) carries a penalty of not more than a $250,000 fine and/or 3 yr in prison. First offense for possession of a schedule IV substance carries a penalty of not more than a $100,000 fine and/or 1 yr in prison. Penalties go up for a second or third conviction.
3. Possession of a personal use amount of a schedule III or IV substance without a prescription is extremely unlikely to be prosecuted federally. This means that in most cases this sort of thing would be prosecuted at the state level. Penalties vary depending on the state.[/b]

Many states have drug diversion programs where possession of small personal use quantities of even schedule I substances result in treatment and/or a probationary period after which the offense no longer counts as a conviction.

4. We aren't sure, but we don't believe that a person is required by law to carry their prescription with the medication. Generally this means that if questioned about a prescription medication by law enforcement...it may be best to refuse to answer questions until a lawyer is present (as usual).

The clinical use of steroids is limited to cases including:

1. Testicular cancer
2. Adolescent males with pituitary malfunction
3. loss of muscle tissue
4. transsexual women who wish to be permanently masculinized.(1)

http://www.anabolics...com/roida4a.htm (1)

The clinical uses of Modafinil, on the other hand, are:

1. Vigilance enhancement (1a)
2. Narcolepsy
3. Attention related disorders (ADD or ADHD) (1b)
4. Sleep apnea

http://www.nevapress...ull/5/3/193.pdf (1a)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum (1b)

Peace.

Edited by nootropikamil, 03 May 2006 - 04:36 PM.

[doug123]

Scott: I was just kidding around when I compared crack to anabolic steroids. But the truth is, we really don't know the long term side effects of either.

[scottl]

Adam have you seen Lior's signature? Da sense modeled his after it.


You admitted you spoke/typed in haste last night on steroids, let's leave it at that.

[doug123]

The use of anabolic steroids is just as dangerous as I typed it...even in haste. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

[scottl]

Adam,

1. If you read your last posts your moods fluctuate wildly over the last 24 hours.

2. Steroids have been used safely by a large number of people including a number on this board. Yes they have some risks but if one knows what one is doing one can minimize them and many have no problems at at all.

Would I take them? No. Nor condone them where illegal e.g. US.

I'm done on this topic.

[doug123]

Scott: you are an individual with strong opinions who knows how to express himself -- and I really do appreciate your constructive criticism. I am not moody as I am not inhibited from stating my opinions -- which can always change based on what information I have at that time regarding the matter in question. If that comes off as moody -- I can't really help that. I am trying my best to be positive and trying to change the topic from the...negative stuff going on that everyone is sick of -- to nootropics and positive stuff. I'm off to a movie now. See you around.

[zoolander]

Cheers Da_sense .

[doug123]

Look dude: sorry for being off topic and sharing my "poetry" -- sorry if my language sounds like poetry. Which poet do I remind you of?

Clearly there is a language barrier between Bosnia adjusted English and what I'm used to here in Cali. You do a better job than I do at my Spanish...I do not particularly want to disucss steroids in the nootropics forum. I am sorry it even came up. But it did, so let's end it. here, and now. I would, for one, be happy to hear that I could take such compounds safely to max out my body composition. Hey: if you could convince me they are safe, I'd be a good customer of yours. I presented a scientific argument based on the facts that I currently have available regarding the use of anabolic steroids; that's all,

Science suggests a lot of stuff, but the conclusions we draw may be different. I would be pleased to understand your reasoning. Please folks, do not read too much into my comments. They are just observations and hypotheticals involved in the scientific reasoning process.

I'm off to the gym now...peace out...

Edited by nootropikamil, 04 May 2006 - 01:07 AM.

[jaydfox]

The steroids issue was fairly dead from the start. The only points Adam brought up of any relevance to da_sense's company were the questions of what measures does airsealed take, if any, to verify that the customers are 18+ (or even 16+) and/or have a valid prescription. No judgment made on the answer to this question, but if anything is relevant to the discussion, this is.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a company that sells steroids, and neither do a lot of other people.

At any rate, it seems that the discussion needs to end, unless we want to get back to selegiline, or whatever this thread was supposed to be about.

[Pablo M]

I take 2.5mg every other day, and will do so until I'm 50, when I'll bump up to 2.5 two days on, one day off...repeat.  Then at 60-70 I'll take 2.5 every day.  And continue to increase each decade in this manner.  Taking it below the age of 30 is probably quite unnecessary, and you'd need to take an extremely lose dose.

I've talked to two knowledgeable doctors about this program, and they all agree it's both safe and effective for my purposes.  Paul Wakfer also recommends this program of dosage progression:  http://morelife.org/

Duke, I thought you took only naturally-occuring substances. What brought about the change of mind?

[odeja]

Wow, this thread turned bad quick. I think Zoolander's initial response was a constructive one, and I appreciate him being candid.

That was one and a half years ago, though. I thought this thread died when there was no more initial response. I went ahead and tried 2.5mg, felt strange, somewhat warm and sweaty, actually a lot of subtle oddities of the mind and body. But who knows if these side effects are passing and expected, right? The next day I went ahead and took more anyway. It MAY have been as much as 5mg. I cannot entirely recall. It may seem from what happened after taking that dosage that zoolander's worries may have been legitimate to some extent. Starting after just a few hours, I had a bad series of episodes, extended across a couple of weeks at least, of sweating, irregular heartbeat, sensitivity to the dilation/contraction of my veins (especially in the neck, ugh), a feeling of high pressure inside my head, some minor involuntary muscle contraction, but worst of all a deathly fear and an intense sadness. The emotional distress subsided after some three weeks perhaps, the last of the physical uncomforts after a couple of months. That is, except a feeling of tenderness and vague swelling around my Adam's apple that, even now, occasionally returns. Too bad there's no real way of knowing what happened that comes to mind. But sure, I may have had dopamine aplenty already, and that is the assumption(-of-far-too-little-detail) that I'm tentatively going by now.

It was an efficient scare, at least. But I've regained interest. It would be silly to dismiss them all based on this (the evil mind drugs).

Do you believe you are dopamine deficient? Be careful of taking deprenyl as it potentiates the dopamine response. Neurotransmitters work in tonic balance. If you push the balance too far one way you may suffer from a dopamine-related syndrome. For example a deficit=depression and/or excess=schizophrenia.

I'd be delighted to hear what you mean by a "dopamine-related syndrome." I didn't turn schizophrenic, at least. =) Though I'd say I've long been what I believe is often called schizoid, long before taking Selegiline. I'm curious about Tianeptine in this regard, and as a potential alleviator of the anxiety.

It is interesting to note that you refer to your tendancy to anxiety as irritating. I would have a think about that if I was you.

A gross understatment. My apologies. I would say it's massively debilitating.

Perhaps working out an effective way to deal with your anxiety that doesn't involve supplements may be a safer option first.

Indeed. If this seemed possible back then - or now - that certainly would be preferable. Yet it seems this "effective way" either doesn't exist, or is so time-consuming, and not effective at all, that it cancels out its own worth. Enough so that attempting self-medication seems a most worthwhile avenue to pursue, at any rate.

Your motivation, mood and anxiety may not be chemically based.

This seems to me an ill-conceived notion, though, but you're free to elaborate if you're still around.

Edited by odeja, 02 August 2007 - 08:02 PM.

[odeja]

funy to see americans even after cold war to be scared from russian . [lol]  kind of strange side effect of holywoods movies may be ?

I'm no American, Sir! =) And I did not mean to offend. Just a (bad) joke.

[PeacedOutHippie]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I cannot believe I actually read through all that personal warfare. I was hoping to get a better perspective on selegiline by reading this post but was astonished at the personal bullcrap I found instead. This is an earnest request for everyone to get beyond personal attacks and meagre arguments. The thread started seems to have realized that early enough to disinvolve himself. If the pursuit of immortality is what unites us all, then such a thread is a shame...

[luv2increase]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I cannot believe I actually read through all that personal warfare. I was hoping to get a better perspective on selegiline by reading this post but was astonished at the personal bullcrap I found instead. This is an earnest request for everyone to get beyond personal attacks and meagre arguments. The thread started seems to have realized that early enough to disinvolve himself. If the pursuit of immortality is what unites us all, then such a thread is a shame...

And you bumped up a 3 week old thread to say that??? That is sad...

[Advanc3d]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I cannot believe I actually read through all that personal warfare. I was hoping to get a better perspective on selegiline by reading this post but was astonished at the personal bullcrap I found instead. This is an earnest request for everyone to get beyond personal attacks and meagre arguments. The thread started seems to have realized that early enough to disinvolve himself. If the pursuit of immortality is what unites us all, then such a thread is a shame...

And you bumped up a 3 week old thread to say that??? That is sad...

that made me lol hahahaha

[Ben]

It's ok, Kamil's not here anymore.

GUYS GUYS GUYS!
I cannot believe I actually read through all that personal warfare. I was hoping to get a better perspective on selegiline by reading this post but was astonished at the personal bullcrap I found instead. This is an earnest request for everyone to get beyond personal attacks and meagre arguments. The thread started seems to have realized that early enough to disinvolve himself. If the pursuit of immortality is what unites us all, then such a thread is a shame...

[mikeinnaples]

A year and three weeks is more like it.