88 replies to this topic

[morbius]

If scottl is a medical dr, I'll take his word over any phd, especially one who can't spell or phrase coherent sentences. You can say that's bs and what about life mirage, but the funny thing there is 99% of the people on this board were sucking his dick until the truth came out. Then all of a sudden "you know I suspected some of his advice was off" was the general cognitive dissonance adjustment. What do I care? I think da sense is a wacko, I've said so. I think adam kamil is a wacko. I think zoolanders post (and pic) shows he's at least somewhat weird. I think several people in here are playing both sides of the street. I think many of the basic members have a lot in common with some of these people (as in live in the same body). How do I know? I've read many of their posts.

When you get right down to it, there is very little certainty about anything. That is why it's comical to see people getting so upset about what is right and what is wrong. All you can do is read the best studies you can find, understand the sources/motivation and try to test the safest drugs personally, if you want to try any of them at all. That is the number one failing of this board, there are too many people hawking their products (and hubris). It reminds me of seeing a commercial for a drug that treats "restless leg syndrome" on tv.

[doug123]

Dude, that was like totally negative and not constructive either. What is your point? So you think I am a wacko, da_sense is a wacko, zoolander is somewhat weird. Let me break it to you, dude: it's really easy to call anyone anything you want; because you aren't revealing your identity here. I can sit at the computer in my underwear too and call myself morbious if I wanted to.

You want Scott's opinion based on the assumption he is an MD. Well sorry to break it to you, kid, but you are like the pot calling the kettle black (is that a cliché?): do you know for a fact that Scott is an MD? So what would it take for you to verify an identity? Should Scott fax you a copy of his ID and his degree from Medical College? You are making the exact same assumption we all made at some point about LifeMirage -- about Scott; meanwhile, you are criticizing everyone else for doing the same exact thing with LM. Do you even notice you are doing this, or is it subconscious? Scott: I am not saying you are not an MD, dude. We all make assumptions; all the time. So what happens when we are wrong? We have to go back to the drawing board and revise our theory. So what are you saying? You have never made an incorrect assumption?

It's most simple to complain, but when it comes time to offer a solution, you seem to disappear.

You might be able to contribute something if you can act on your strong convictions; maybe write a conspiracy theory novel or something in your free time?

Edited by nootropikamil, 01 May 2006 - 11:58 PM.

[mitkat]

I think da sense is a wacko, I've said so.  I think adam kamil is a wacko.  I think zoolanders post (and pic) shows he's at least somewhat weird.

Okay...one's appearance in relation to your paltry observations is highly irrelevant and revealingly ignorant. It's a beautiful example of collective stupidity in motion. I'm sure lots of people think you are a "wacko" as well, and no one's going to stop you from fightin' that good fight, but if you think someone is weird (when polarized against yourself, the absolute state of normalcy) because they look different to you - you are wrong. You are weird, and fast becoming a anthropological curiositiy. I hope you think I'm weird as well, because if I'm not weird to you, then I'm not trying hard enough.

Morphological differences should really be unimportant on a board that facilitates intellect and the furthering of the human being itself as it's axis.

[scottl]

If scottl is a medical dr, I'll take his word over any phd, especially one who can't spell or phrase coherent sentences.  You can say that's bs and what about life mirage, but the funny thing there is 99% of the people on this board were sucking his dick until the truth came out.  Then all of a sudden "you know I suspected some of his advice was off" was the general cognitive dissonance adjustment.  What do I care?  I think da sense is a wacko, I've said so.  I think adam kamil is a wacko.  I think zoolanders post (and pic) shows he's at least somewhat weird.  I think several people in here are playing both sides of the street.  I think many of the basic members have a lot in common with some of these people (as in live in the same body).  How do I know?  I've read many of their posts.

When you get right down to it, there is very little certainty about anything.  That is why it's comical to see people getting so upset about what is right and what is wrong.  All you can do is read the best studies you can find, understand the sources/motivation and try to test the safest drugs personally, if you want to try any of them at all.  That is the number one failing of this board, there are too many people hawking their products (and hubris).  It reminds me of seeing a commercial for a drug that treats "restless leg syndrome" on tv.

Morbius,

My MD does not give me any special dispensation except if I have clinical experience working with people I may know what works to treat something based on experience (not relevant here). Basically it is not a big deal.

Unfortunately this area Nootropics & Brain Enhancers is A. less understood and B I think that there is more variabiility on where people are...perhaps where their homeostasis is relative to various neurotransmitters. So even when there are studies I wonder if there is so much person to person variability that the info is not as useful as with more traditional supps.

These are a just my guesses. Again it comes down to risk/benefit thus I prefer to start with e.g. choline precursors over Ache inhibitors, etc.

[scottl]

Oh and Adam, the interesting thing is that the multiple personality one (LM) is very knowledgable as far as I can tell, and often correct. Of course that doesn't mean I didn't get burned trusting him on an area I didn't know about and buying carnosine eyedrops which were recalled over safety issues.

[doug123]

Oh and Adam, the interesting thing is that the multiple personality one (LM) is very knowledgable as far as I can tell, and often correct.  Of course that doesn't mean I didn't get burned trusting him on an area I didn't know about and buying carnosine eyedrops which were recalled over safety issues.

I would be pushing nootropics on everyone already, but I figure we all want at least some of the smoke to clear before I start posting about heavy metals...for God's sake let's change the topic. I hope this is the last time I ever post about this matter. Gosh, I hope all of this modafinil I take does not kill me, but I'm the most active guy in the gym...or at the typewriter...I'm off to the gym after I type this rant. My school has a gnarly gym, here's a picture:

http://nootropics.ip...-1141109556.jpg

Dude: I used to think Edward's intentions were excellent...but I never knew he owned Unique Nutrition until very recently. Remember when I first communicated with you privately about this issue (before it became a public s*&t fight)? All I suggested was that he was same guy that wrote those Mind Menders posts...if I would have known Edward also owned Unique Nutrition at that point, I might have blown the whistle in public...clearly his interest in nootropics are somewhat financially motivated. I guess one could say the same about me; but I really don't hope to make a fortune off of selling nootropics. Especially when there is no real evidence that they work in healthy people -- such would be a pitiful existence selling what is percieved to be snake oil to make a living. I do believe several nootropic drugs are effective; but there is little, if any research to confirm this; so to fuel the future of such therapies we need to fund research to investigate whether or not they are effective. So I would like to build a non-profit that can raise money specifically for clinical trials can prove or disprove nootropics' effectiveness in healthy subjects. If you had any clincal trial experience (do you?) such a company could fund a randomized, placebo-controlled trial into nootropic therapy and we could hire you to run it. It would have to be a relatively small trial, but I will look into the details, costs. etc.

His "knowledge" I corroborated thought my own independent scientific inquiry as I have been taught not to trust anyone's reasoning -- even an MD's -- without cross-referencing. This can get me into trouble when I don't know the integrity of the source of the information...such as previous arguments with AORsupport where I made a fool of myself. I always thought AORsupport's arguments and reasoning were far more advanced that LifeMirage's; and he also shares the sources of his reasoning; he never used authority to affect respect of anyone...

I cannot say I am the pinnacle of perfection, or that I was not acting like a delusional manic lunatic much of last year...that's just plain scary stuff, honestly, I do not understand or remember quite what was going on in my head once the benzos started...I should have noticed the correlation between starting the dopamine enhancers and the random numbers and letters on license plates, clocks, and other such patterns starting to talk to me...eventually, I couldn't even function in school any more because the psychosis developed such that I was sure there were a million conspiracies that I had to figure out immediately otherwise the world might end...any such conspiracies that might be developing I now take with me to the gym...

Edited by Michael, 09 May 2006 - 10:26 AM.

[scottl]

I've heard you say this before Scott. Can't let you get away with it here. Qualify or perish.[/quote]


1. I hope you read the post I made on caffeine I put it up for your info.

2. What are you looking for, me to find 100 of his quotes and attempt to verify each one?

Read "steve's" recent posts on M & M regarding choline sources e.g. CDP choline, alpha Gpc, etc.

and if you're going to police this place and prevent misleading stuff from being posted, I ahave a few places you could start...

[scottl]

and get the damn quote error fixed!

[power.bulls.x]

...steroids have a host of terrible long-term side effects.

i dont agrue wit that !
there is a lot of doctors that use anabolic steroids for:
-fertility(increasing sperm count)
-delayed growth in boys(DHT androgens)
-HIV (to avoid muscle wasting)
-after a surgery
...
...
there is a lot of condition where steroids are used and proved usefull ...
I remember of one study of london college of medecine in sort : steroids are a male hormone and incresing the amount in healthy male in somme degree isnt likely to produce no bad sides effects! only acnea as long as it carfluly monitored even for Anti-anging,better look,BB ... it is OK undeer the supervision of somme one knowlegable about the steroids.

i agree that increasing too mutch the lean mass can make in theory health problemes like :
-too strong muscles for tondons.
-heart that shoul pompe harder ...
-Increasing DNA damage ...

it is just a matter of not overdoing !
[lol] [lol]

too mutch of someting is lekly to be bad:
10 serving of potasium supps will kil you. while 10 serving of A.N.S wont.

[doug123]

I think steroid abuse is possibly among the most dangerous type of drug abuse one can engage in -- probably at least as bad as crack -- the long term effects on your sexual system are far too sketchy. I probably should not talk considering I'm a recovering dope fiend; but I will anyways.

Anyone who is interested in preserving their quality of life should not mess with steroid type compounds unless they are suffering from some kind of severe deficiency that can only be reversed by their use.

You DO NOT want to be messing with your hormone systems. Even messing with HGH is too dangerous in my opinion.

Plus: anyone who does not feel "manly" enough in their current state -- and needs drugs to reinforce -- should probably re-consider their sexuality as they likely will get some extra estrogen anyways.

Click here to see how steroids are dangerous

Edited out large quote

Edited by nootropikamil, 02 May 2006 - 08:05 PM.

[jaydfox]

nootropikamil, would you be so kind as to highlight some key items in that long quote?

Example of a section which should be highlighted, if I read your intent correctly:

A well known side effect of AS in males is breast formation (gynecomastia). Gynecomastia is caused by increased levels of circulating estrogens, which are typical female sex hormones. The estrogens estradiol and estrone are formed in males by peripheral aromatization and conversion of AS. The increased levels of circulation estrogens in males stimulate breast growth. In general, gynecomastia is irreversible.

AS may affect sexual desire. Although few investigations on this issue have been published, it appears that during AS use sexual desire is increased, although the frequency of erectile dysfunction is increased. This may seem contradictory, but sexual appetite is androgen dependent, while erectile function is not. Since sexual desire and aggressiveness are increased during AS use, the risk of getting involved in sexual assault may be increased.

[doug123]

nootropikamil, would you be so kind as to highlight some key items in that long quote?

Example of a section which should be highlighted, if I read your intent correctly:

A well known side effect of AS in males is breast formation (gynecomastia). Gynecomastia is caused by increased levels of circulating estrogens, which are typical female sex hormones. The estrogens estradiol and estrone are formed in males by peripheral aromatization and conversion of AS. The increased levels of circulation estrogens in males stimulate breast growth. In general, gynecomastia is irreversible.

AS may affect sexual desire. Although few investigations on this issue have been published, it appears that during AS use sexual desire is increased, although the frequency of erectile dysfunction is increased. This may seem contradictory, but sexual appetite is androgen dependent, while erectile function is not. Since sexual desire and aggressiveness are increased during AS use, the risk of getting involved in sexual assault may be increased.

Yeah, dude, I suppose I could have summarized it. I quoted it; because it was not my work; and the terrible side effects from the use of anabolic steroids is well summarized (and I do not believe it could be compacted any further) by Harm Kuipers, M.D., Ph.D. -- and I believe an additional clause for quotes from folks with -- several degrees -- LOL -- an MD and a Ph.D -- should be amended to the ImmInst constitution. Okay, okay, next time I'll try to summarize it. See you around, dude, I'm off to the library to do my homework.

[jaydfox]

Yeah, dude, I suppose I could have summarized it. I quoted it; because it was not my work; and the terrible side effects from the use of anabolic steroids is well summarized (and I do not believe it could be compacted any further) by Harm Kuipers, M.D., Ph.D. -- and I believe an additional clause for quotes from folks with -- several degrees -- LOL -- an MD and a Ph.D -- should be amended to the ImmInst constitution. Okay, okay, next time I'll try to summarize it. See you around, dude, I'm off to the library to do my homework.

Even just highlighting the important bits in bold (and red; not sure if I like that rule) would go a long way, rather than trying to strip the whole thing down.

[power.bulls.x]

@nootropikamil do not lift weight as it increase you free test level (not total test level) it will damage your sexuality acording to what you say. ( [lol] i am jocking. )

All you talk about is what could hapens in theory on megadosing for very long periods. just theorical based on mouse & others animals experiments !!

You will,i am sure,never ever found any trials of steroids on healthy pepoles !! just report of somme use & abuse that hardly threatened life (only very very big & long abuse =>death).

Germans were the first to experiments A.S on humans.

i am in no way affiliate with any steroids pharma group!!

i dont recomend steroids !!

i am still not conviced about steroids.

@nootropikamil when you talk about A.S do you also include hormones (needs convertion befor turning into A.S) ?

lets talk back about deprenyl.

[jaydfox]

@nootropikamil do not lift weight as it increase you free test level (not total test level) it will damage your sexuality acording to what you say. (  i am jocking. )

All you talk about is what could hapens in theory on megadosing for very long periods. just theorical based on mouse & others animals experiments !!

Exercising has dozens of physiological and biochemical effects beyond increased testosterone production, and these changes have been balanced and tuned by evolution. I doubt evolution selected for men that got gynecomastia ("bitch tits") or erectile dysfunction when they were forced to be more aggressive in life.

The benefits of AS supplementation are really not comparable to heavy resistance training, unless you can find a similar evolutionarily-selected homestatic situation for mere testosterone production upregulation.

[jaydfox]

Hmm, I joined this thread late. Why did steroids get brought up? I suppose I should go back a page or two...

[zoolander]

Morbius said:

If scottl is a medical dr, I'll take his word over any phd, especially one who can't spell or phrase coherent sentences.

I haven't always been the most grammatically correct person. I type the way I speak alot of the time and do not spell check in most situations. My spelling and grammer do concern me considering my position as an academic. From my experiance, scientists are not the best of spellers.

Morbius said:

I think da sense is a wacko, I've said so. I think adam kamil is a wacko. I think zoolanders post (and pic) shows he's at least somewhat weird.

Is there a point to this? Are you trying to justify that your normal? Morbius, I have nothing to hide. The fact that you think I am weird is just your opinion.

Mitkat, you rebuttle to morbius's comment above was awesome and very well said. Cheers dude for stepping in

da_sense said:

By my common knowdledge i mean stuff i've read so far on topic or similar topics, my own experiences and experiences of others.

Yes I understand what you mean. However, what we read and take as common knowledge is not always the truth. Alot took what LifeMirage said and used it as common knowledge. Some even quoted him. LifeMirage though, worked for the supplement industry, as you do, and may have been lying through his teeth to sell products. As it turns out, LifeMirage was a lier and used someone elses ID to better his position.

Unfortunately da_sense, by selling nootropics there will always be a conflict of interest. I have express my concern about this. I have even expressed it and challenged Pete from relentless. For me, this is a responsible stance to take. A safe one.

If your common knowledge comes from peer reviewed arenas then say so. Of course I am not going to ask you for a reference everytime but if you say something I do not understand or feel comfortable with, then I will ask for the reference. If you can't provide a reference then I think it is fair I assume you made it up until you can show me otherwise. I would expect the same treatment. I will alway be able to provide a reference or reasoning for a statement.

da_sense said:

I'm not a native english speaker and often i express myself wrongy.

Dude, I really feel bad. I'm so sorry. I assumed you were a native speaker. I do understand how difficult the english language can be and I apologize if I was too hard on you.

I'm sincerely sorry.

as scottl said, your "tone" does seems personal to me, though i don't get into fights either, i say what i have to say, it's up to you to take it or no

I am glad and have hoped that you did not take this personally. I hope to have many more positive interactions with you da_sense

i still think i've done nothing wrong, but helped with my comments

I don't think I ever said you were outright wrong. What I did do though is to point out, what I thought, to be holes in your reply. I pointed out what I thought were holes and asked for justifacation. I also comminucated the way that you may have been coming accross. No different to how others openly communicated how I may have been coming accross.

Anyhow....like I said, I look forward to many more interactions with you da_sense. I think we will all challenge each other here at some stage. In most situations this is healthy and not personal.

[zoolander]

I should have asked this about 10 replies ago....

Just for future reference;

who do you work for?
what nootropics do you sell?
where do you live?

[jaydfox]

Graeme, nootropikamil is a newly reinstated member, who—how shall I say this in the most polite way possible?—was asked not to participate in the ImmInst fora. He has been gone for a little over a year.

I'll let nootropikamil answer your questions himself, though I suspect many others here could answer them as well, with varying degrees of cordiality

[doug123]

Dude, I don't know who Graeme is. I guess this particular post could be re-directed to the "ethics" subforum more appropriately.

da_sense: I brought up the issue of bias -- because you sell deprenyl -- and tout its use. And I am not your competitor, dude; tell me one product that we both sell. Pyritinol, is that it?

And in the mean time, I happened to mention you to sell anabolic steroids; which are very dangerous and I frown upon the fact that you sell them to anyone who lays down the cash -- couldn't you at least verify your customers are at least 18 years of age or something?

Considering you choose to affiliate with a vendor whom called me a murderer behind my back to advance his own fraudulent agenda, ethics are already an issue. You also recognize the vendor in question also impersonated a doctor to increase his business; but you continue to affiliate. That is your choice -- and your morals -- not mine. I don't have any comment about that because the implications are self-evident.

Peace.

Peace.

[zoolander]

the question was directed at da-sense but I will direct the question at all people who post here.

Selling Nootropics whilst advising on nootropics is a pretty obvious conflict of interest.

For the record: I do not have any associations with or work for any supplement companies. The advice I give is based mainly on scientific evidence and in some cases from personal experiance.

[doug123]

Selling Nootropics whilst advising on nootropics is a pretty obvious conflict of interest.

I guess we are still off topic, but I feel this still belongs here.

I beg to differ: there is nothing at all wrong with advising on nootropics while selling nootropics. However, there are (I think) some contingencies.

1. The vendor needs to recognize that s/he is a vendor; and this needs to be public information.

2. The vendor should offer some scientific reasoning to support their argument -- if it is to be respected or even taken seriously -- as advice. Generally accepted ways to present a scientific argument are to use scientific references: One can leave footnotes or post entire the entire abstract from which they reference.

Hmmm? Any more?

My best learning experiences here were in discussions (some were more like arguments, however) with another supplement vendor. I actually believe in the products I sell. Otherwise I could not sell them -- I am a terrible liar. And honestly, I sense bad vibes recently from the nootropic business. It could be just me, I don't know; but if this is how we act they must not work.

[jaydfox]

the question was directed at da-sense

My bad, in the context I assumed you meant nootropikamil, since da_sense is an active poster and promotes his business here from time to time (e.g., discounts to ImmInst members), whereas nootripikamil has been here less than a week.

Selling Nootropics whilst advising on nootropics is a pretty obvious conflict of interest.

Boy did we find that one out the hard way. *cough* Edward.

[jaydfox]

I beg to differ: there is nothing at all wrong with advising on nootropics while selling nootropics.

I don't think he said it was "wrong". He merely stated it was a "pretty obvious conflict of interest", which you can't argue (well, I suppose you could, but you'd lose).

As you state, disclosure of a conflict of interest alleviates the "wrong" aspect of it to a fair degree, and it's the ethical thing to do.

[doug123]

ethical

That's why this isn't the Immorality Institute. If are supposed to live for eternity, we better learn to out how to watch out for each other -- as a species, I would have to say the human race is currently closer to immorality than immortality. I would hope we could do a little better. Aren't we supposed to be fighting death, rather than inviting it? Just some thoughts, dude. I've been meditating too much, apparently.

[scottl]

1. Anyone who let Adam back in and who didn't expect this is naive. Sorry but really.

Not that anything he has done has been horrible, and I have no problem with him staying (provisos below).

2. Adam I have enquired to my satisfaction and De sense bears no blame for the recent nonsense.

3. Adam
"-- I am a terrible liar."

You get into trouble with bad judgement and attacking people. There should be zero tolerance for you attacking particularly other vendors. Since this is a flagrant conflict of interest. Those posts should be deleted and you banned if you can't stop yourself. Seriously.

4. Steroids are legal in other countries and if used properly, there is minimal risk (one of the ones he sells is known as being particularly safe). Not that I take them.

5. All vendors should have something that is part of their signiture saying they are a vendor. Of course that is kinda giving them free advertising, but you cannot have it both ways, and it is relevant info. People should know they are vendors and then hear what they have to say.

6. Zoolander,

"Selling Nootropics whilst advising on nootropics is a pretty obvious conflict of interest. "

I thought you were making too much of a big deal about it when you first raised the issue (months or years ago), and I still do.

This has been relevant with AORsupport, Pete and now these two. I REALLY dislike big brother who of course knows better then I do, deciding what is good for me. Identify them as vendors, let them speak their peace and people can be their own judge. Unless you wish to ban them both, whcih is silly.