12 replies to this topic

[NowAndZen]

Ok so not sure if this is where I should put this but here is what I'm trying right now as a stack - 

L-Theanine - 200mg

L-Tyrosine - 400mg

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500mg

Inositol Hexaphosphate - 500mg

Alpha GPC - 150mg

Caffiene - from coffee

 

 

I should note that before the stack I had been taking these things below and had seen a real improvement in brain function

 

Phosphatidylserine

Ashawgandha

Creatine

Turmeric

Lithium Orotate

B-100 Complex

Alpha Lipoic Acid

St.John's Wort

L-Lysine

Vitamin D-3

Glucosamine with MSM

Ginkgo Biloba

Saw Palmetto

Vitamin C 

Mens Mutlivitamin

Omega 3 Fish Oil

L-Theanine - 200mg - in stack above

L-Tyrosine - 400mg - in stack above

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500mg - in stack above

 

I've just started with the stack and on day two my upper front brain feels a little funky. Could this be from the Alpha-GPC (choline)? I also bought some DMAE Bitartrate which I haven't added to my stack because I read that the Alpha-GPC is enough choline and crosses the blood brain barrier better than DMAE and that having both is too much. Thoughts?

I should also note that I eat 4 organic eggs daily in the morning about an hour after the stack. 

Edited by Paul Shaw, 03 November 2016 - 07:24 PM.

[jack black]

If it's tension like feeling in head and neck, too much choline, especially with those eggs.

BTW, DMAE is unpredictable and it can lower ACh in some people and increase in others. Try and see for yourself.

Edited by jack black, 04 November 2016 - 01:39 AM.

[NowAndZen]

Yeah I think it was too much choline so I'll drop that from my stack for now and see how it goes with everything else. My head was funky all night.

 

So try the DMAE and if my head feels funky then probably it increased the choline beyond a comfortable level. I'll wait a few days until my head feels normal then try with the DMAE.

 

I've been reading and am getting mixed messages about DMAE, it's either a wonder supplement or can causes MS. 

[NowAndZen]

My head is still funky and I didn't do the stack today.

 

I did take these - 

L-Theanine - 200mg

L-Tyrosine - 400mg

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500mg

Caffeine from coffee

[jack black]

ALCAR also increases ACh. It may take weeks to get back to the balance if you're sensitive to high ACh.

[NowAndZen]

Interesting, I'll cut that back too then. I was taking it for a while but maybe I pushed it over with the Alpha-GPC. I searched but couldn't see anything obvious, what will use up choline in the brain?

 

[NowAndZen]

Ok so I stopped everything from my stack listed above. I did have what I believe to be a choline headache for a few days with a little bit still lingering. I did notice that my mood has improved since the stack and my brain seems to be functioning better. I went and watched the new movie Dr. Strange over the weekend. There are many psychedelic scenes in this movie and while watching my brain felt fully activated and tingling, everything was very vivid. It was pretty amazing. So I really feel like this stack helped me even though I think I ended up with too much choline in my brain. I'll keep tweaking it and update. 

 

I ordered some Phenylpiracetam which I'm hoping will burn up some of the excess choline in my head. I intend to take it with out anything else in a small dose. What could go wrong? I'll update afterwards.

[Godof Smallthings]

L-theanine and L-tyrosine are both dopaminergic in nature, and in me they quite noticably enhance the dopaminergic effects of caffeine, which have the potential of becoming overwhelming with unpleasant effects as a result. (I generally feel stronger dopaminergic activity as a sensation of pressure/buzzing around the forehead/temples, so it sounds a bit similar to what you describe).

Agree with jack black about the effects of excess choline - it resembles a tension headache centered around/in the neck.

Alcar on its own generally does not cause any weird effects on me - it can give a pleasant, strong energy boost though, when I have not taken it for a long time - unfortunately it is usually just once, then it seems to do little from a subjective point of view. Unlike Alpha GPC, ALCAR has never given me a tension headache.

[NowAndZen]

As mentioned above I took 150mg of Alpha-GPC with some other things and have felt a little funky in my head since. I now have some phenylpiracetam and will be taking 100mg with out added choline hoping to burn up excess choline. Does this sound like a bad idea?

[NowAndZen]

Just to update, I took phenylpiracetam with out alpha-gpc (choline) and it acted as a pretty good stimulant. After a couple hours I started getting a headache which I attributed to low choline so I took 100mg of alpha-gpc and the headache went away. My head did feel a little weird but feel like this stack could be useful if I wanted increased focus for something. Not something I'll be doing every day or even weekly.

[NowAndZen]

I'm adding my personal experience just in case someone else searches for these symptoms. So I had stopped taking any of the choline based supplements as well as the Acetyl-LCarnitine. I have continued to take tyrosine and theanine and those don't bother me at all. I was feeling good, no headaches or neck pain so I decide to try 500 mg of Acetyl-L-Carnitine. Within a couple hours I have a very stiff neck and headache at the base of my skull. A day later the inflammation has moved to my low back where I have a slipped disk that had not bothered me since the last time I messed with the stack. So I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that I am very sensitive to the carnitine and it causes problems along my spine.

 

Also I should state that my stack has caused head, neck and back pain but I also am functioning mentally at a higher level. All of my messing around did somehow improve brain function. I am doing a lot of studying and learning in tech for work. I was struggling with this and having trouble focusing and that is no longer the case. My brain works better now. So it seems that my stack has helped and hurt. Not sure if this will be meaningful to anyone but thought it best to share.

[Duchykins]

It's easy for people to forget that caffeine affects ACh release.  All by itself.  I don't know if you do anything with nicotine but that also interacts with ACh.

 

Just get rid of the ALCAR and DMAE.  It's just going to make you way more sensitive to anything that is mildly cholinergic, including foods.  Or anything that inhibits acetylcholinesterase, which can also be found in various foods.

 

ALCAR and DMAE are the devil to me, for some reason.  Alpha-GPC and Citicoline as well.  And bacopa especially hurt me at 1/4th of the recommended dosage (when trying new things I always start with small doses).   I wasted a lot of money experimenting with all of those, one at a time.

 

I take l-carnitine daily, but that is not the same as acetylcarnitine.  The benefits of carnitine without the acetylcholine complications.  I also take theanine at about 200 mg a few times a day.  Wonderful stuff.

 

Some people like me simply cannot handle anything that strongly affects ACh.  We have some genetic mutation that leaves us with high acetylcholine activity as it is.  It could be a mutation that inhibits production of acetylcholinesterase or something of that nature.   It also makes us a little prone to developing depression and anxiety.  It also seems to make us have slightly above average IQs.  

 

Nature is a bitch like that, always working in trade-offs.  I'm pursuing a degree in evolutionary biology so this kind of stuff always fascinates and amazes me.

 

Newer research into depression has found that some people benefit from antidepressants just because they are all anticholinergic in varying degrees, not because of their interactions with serotonin, dopamine or norepinephrine.  This is merely more evidence that cholinergics only do more harm than good to some people - so you cannot proceed under the assumption that a lot of these certain nootropics that affect ACh will boost your functioning just because they boost other people's.   Hope this knowledge helps you.

 

Edited by Duchykins, 03 February 2017 - 08:05 PM.

[NowAndZen]

Duchykins,

I appreciate the response, it sounds like this may be my problem. I do use caffeine daily but do not use nicotine. Once this neck stiffness and headache go away (seems to take a week or more) I may try the l-carnitine. 

Thanks,

Paul