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So I combined a HDACi with EMDR-Therapy

hdaci emdr

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#1 Junipersun

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 04:07 AM


I'm suffering from traumatic memories for roughly 10 years. I tried many medications + non-drug treatment options (CBT and EMDR), which helped a bit, but still left me with a terrible quality of life because of my hardwired anxiety. I learned about HDACis and their abilty to help fear extinction processes on longecity. So I thought, why not combining the currently best known method for reprocessing traumtic memories with it?

 

I know the EMDR very well and did many sessions without a HDACi until it seemingly stopped helping (about 25 sessions). I'd say it reduced my anxiety from a constant 9 to a constant 7 at best (which is more than any medication ever did). The HDACi I used is Tributyrin (you can find information about it in the CL-994 thread). The dosage I use is about 25g, which shows a good hdaci activity in studies. I did 3 sessions with a trained EMDR-therapist and all I can say is that it works wonders. I'm feeling SO much better and think it will continue to get better as I work through the other memories. I can't rule out placebo-effects completely, but at the moment my anxiety is down to a 4 which is clearly more than was ever possible without it. Anhedonia and depression also improved significantly.
 

As I feel like there is a great potential to this combination and you can't find anything about it online, I wanted to share my anecdotal experience with you. If you don't know how to use a HDACi to treat traumatic memories, EMDR really seems like the best approach as it is shown to work better than simple exposure therapy. You can do EMDR sessions online without a therapist (http://selfbetter.com), although I recommend seeing a therapist who knows the method really well if you have the money for it.


Edited by Junipersun, 27 November 2016 - 04:09 AM.

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#2 sentics

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:08 AM

that sounds pretty good :) I've been thinking about doing neurofeedback on vorinostat or a similar hdaci. since vorinostat is famously hard to come by, could you please name your source for the Tributyrin?



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#3 Irishdude

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 02:37 PM

Please try and come back to report your ongoing effects in a months time. Thank you for sharing!



#4 Junipersun

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 03:29 AM

that sounds pretty good :) I've been thinking about doing neurofeedback on vorinostat or a similar hdaci. since vorinostat is famously hard to come by, could you please name your source for the Tributyrin?

 

As you know Tributyrin is a commonly sold food additive. I couldn't find a source other than the big companies, which don't sell to private persons. I managed to find a small company selling all kinds of chemicals to private persons and asked them if they can get me some Tributyrin, which they did without any problem. I think they only sell to Germans though, and I don't want them to become suspicious. So I'd recommend doing the same as me and ask some small companies which sell to private persons and can order anything from sigma. 


Edited by Junipersun, 28 November 2016 - 03:30 AM.


#5 tolerant

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 10:24 PM

Hi Junisperson,

 

What a success story! I wanted to ask you the following:

 

1. Assuming there was a certain time period after you took Tributyrin and before you engaged in the therapy, did you notice any benefit from Tributyrin in that intervening period (i.e. benefit coming from Tributyrin itself, without the co-administration of therapy)?

 

2. Have you tried a selfbetter.com session? Is it something that can be done without any preparation after taking an HDACi, or would you recommend doing a session to get the feel of the program first before you do your first HDACi session? Is there anything wrong with doing more than one EMDR session in a single day?

 

Thanks,

 

tolerant 

 

 



#6 Junipersun

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:41 PM

1. There was a time period of about 30-60 minutes. I didn't notice any improvements in that time frame, and as far as I understand the mechanism at play, there shouldn't be any, as HDACis only improve learning.

 

2. I have tried a single session. It covers the exact same steps as the official emdr-protocoll does. I would recommend doing at least one session to get to know the process. Honestly, one session a day is more than enough, exposition is always a very taxing process - I  feel pretty exhausted afterwards. You should at least do 3 sessions on one specific topic before you move on to another.


Edited by Junipersun, 02 December 2016 - 04:42 PM.


#7 musicman4534

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:47 PM

Very cool! I'm really glad it helped you like that, and that you were able to find another HDAC inhibitor that worked. This kind of therapy is exactly the type of stuff they're looking into with the HDACi-mediated PTSD therapy. It's great to see a personal story regarding it. Thank you for sharing.

 

 

that sounds pretty good :) I've been thinking about doing neurofeedback on vorinostat or a similar hdaci. since vorinostat is famously hard to come by, could you please name your source for the Tributyrin?

 

SaveSaveDoing neurofeedback training while on an HDACi is an amazing idea.



#8 musicman4534

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 09:04 PM

After looking into it, it turns out Tributyrin is essentially a prodrug of butyrate. We can see here then that butyrate does indeed have significant fear extinction properties, which is corroborated by the studies on butyrate, memory and fear extinction. While butyrate may not be as selective and strong as vorinostat, it looks like an otherwise promising alternative. It could also be a candidate for daily dosing, which the more potent HDAC inhibitors like vorinostat are not suited for.



#9 Synaptik

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 03:11 AM

After looking into it, it turns out Tributyrin is essentially a prodrug of butyrate. We can see here then that butyrate does indeed have significant fear extinction properties, which is corroborated by the studies on butyrate, memory and fear extinction. While butyrate may not be as selective and strong as vorinostat, it looks like an otherwise promising alternative. It could also be a candidate for daily dosing, which the more potent HDAC inhibitors like vorinostat are not suited for.

 

I've just read somewhere the butyrate content of tributurin is 86.42%. There's your effect right there. Also according to Wikipedia, "Tributyrin is a triglyceride naturally present in butter. It is an ester composed of butyric acid and glycerol. Among other things, it is used as an ingredient in making margarine." Molar mass302.36 g/mol

Density1.03 g/cm³

 

As a sidenote, I've been experiencing the same type of "hardwired anxiety" attenuation effects as the OP using a kappa opioid agonist over repeated nights. While this kills anxiety and self critical thoughts, it puts me in an edgy mood until I can raise dopamine levels in the morning (coffee gets my euphoric now).

 

Exit question(s): Could low-level nighttime KOR agonism combined with an HDAC inhibitor increase the effects even more? Does butyrate have any significant & direct D2 signalling actions? If so, this could be worth experimenting with.


Edited by Synaptik, 03 December 2016 - 03:15 AM.

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#10 Junipersun

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 09:19 PM

 

After looking into it, it turns out Tributyrin is essentially a prodrug of butyrate. We can see here then that butyrate does indeed have significant fear extinction properties, which is corroborated by the studies on butyrate, memory and fear extinction. While butyrate may not be as selective and strong as vorinostat, it looks like an otherwise promising alternative. It could also be a candidate for daily dosing, which the more potent HDAC inhibitors like vorinostat are not suited for.

 

I've just read somewhere the butyrate content of tributurin is 86.42%. There's your effect right there. Also according to Wikipedia, "Tributyrin is a triglyceride naturally present in butter. It is an ester composed of butyric acid and glycerol. Among other things, it is used as an ingredient in making margarine." Molar mass302.36 g/mol

Density1.03 g/cm³

 

As a sidenote, I've been experiencing the same type of "hardwired anxiety" attenuation effects as the OP using a kappa opioid agonist over repeated nights. While this kills anxiety and self critical thoughts, it puts me in an edgy mood until I can raise dopamine levels in the morning (coffee gets my euphoric now).

 

Exit question(s): Could low-level nighttime KOR agonism combined with an HDAC inhibitor increase the effects even more? Does butyrate have any significant & direct D2 signalling actions? If so, this could be worth experimenting with.

 

 

As far as I know, Tributyrin doesn't "contain" butyrate, it's a prodrug of butyrate. That makes a huge difference in terms of bioavailability.



#11 musicman4534

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 04:19 AM

 

 

After looking into it, it turns out Tributyrin is essentially a prodrug of butyrate. We can see here then that butyrate does indeed have significant fear extinction properties, which is corroborated by the studies on butyrate, memory and fear extinction. While butyrate may not be as selective and strong as vorinostat, it looks like an otherwise promising alternative. It could also be a candidate for daily dosing, which the more potent HDAC inhibitors like vorinostat are not suited for.

 

I've just read somewhere the butyrate content of tributurin is 86.42%. There's your effect right there. Also according to Wikipedia, "Tributyrin is a triglyceride naturally present in butter. It is an ester composed of butyric acid and glycerol. Among other things, it is used as an ingredient in making margarine." Molar mass302.36 g/mol

Density1.03 g/cm³

 

As a sidenote, I've been experiencing the same type of "hardwired anxiety" attenuation effects as the OP using a kappa opioid agonist over repeated nights. While this kills anxiety and self critical thoughts, it puts me in an edgy mood until I can raise dopamine levels in the morning (coffee gets my euphoric now).

 

Exit question(s): Could low-level nighttime KOR agonism combined with an HDAC inhibitor increase the effects even more? Does butyrate have any significant & direct D2 signalling actions? If so, this could be worth experimenting with.

 

 

As far as I know, Tributyrin doesn't "contain" butyrate, it's a prodrug of butyrate. That makes a huge difference in terms of bioavailability.

 

 

 

Yeah this is exactly what I am wondering! Tributyrin may essentially "deliver" butyrate, and may even have selectivity for certain places in the body over others compared to supplementing butyrate alone.



#12 LiveWell

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 04:58 PM

As a sidenote, I've been experiencing the same type of "hardwired anxiety" attenuation effects as the OP using a kappa opioid agonist over repeated nights. While this kills anxiety and self critical thoughts, it puts me in an edgy mood until I can raise dopamine levels in the morning (coffee gets my euphoric now).

 

 

@Synaptik, May I ask which kappa opioid agonist you've been using?



#13 Synaptik

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:23 PM

 

As a sidenote, I've been experiencing the same type of "hardwired anxiety" attenuation effects as the OP using a kappa opioid agonist over repeated nights. While this kills anxiety and self critical thoughts, it puts me in an edgy mood until I can raise dopamine levels in the morning (coffee gets my euphoric now).

 

 

@Synaptik, May I ask which kappa opioid agonist you've been using?

 

 

Absolutely. Methol in pure peppermint oil - a little less than one full tablespoon at night. It's a selective KOR agonist from my understanding, and I was looking for something that touched just that.

 

As an update, it appears the dopamine pathways have mitigated somewhat. I'm not quite as "edgy" and quick-triggered as when I started, so I'm guessing my brain is adapting to constant D2 suppression. However, D2 baseline is subjectively lower. I want to test with mucana puriens when I get the chance. For now, raising D2 with a combo of turmeric poweder, theanine from green tea and Ginkgo tincture.

 

In terms of the anti-anxiety effect, it's still present and hasn't reduced at all. This is the best part! I'm hoping it will continue this way since I'm using an agonist to constantly create rebound KOR antagonism, so I anticipate overall KOR down regulation as a net long term effect, which is what I'm aiming for.

 

Also, I noticed last night I became deeply EUPHORIC after ingesting the peppermint. This is telling my KOR receptors are deeply saturated to the point I can't even upregulate this network anymore. Terrific!



#14 tolerant

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:59 PM

Absolutely. Methol in pure peppermint oil - a little less than one full tablespoon at night. It's a selective KOR agonist from my understanding, and I was looking for something that touched just that.

 

As an update, it appears the dopamine pathways have mitigated somewhat. I'm not quite as "edgy" and quick-triggered as when I started, so I'm guessing my brain is adapting to constant D2 suppression. However, D2 baseline is subjectively lower. I want to test with mucana puriens when I get the chance. For now, raising D2 with a combo of turmeric poweder, theanine from green tea and Ginkgo tincture.

 

In terms of the anti-anxiety effect, it's still present and hasn't reduced at all. This is the best part! I'm hoping it will continue this way since I'm using an agonist to constantly create rebound KOR antagonism, so I anticipate overall KOR down regulation as a net long term effect, which is what I'm aiming for.

 

Also, I noticed last night I became deeply EUPHORIC after ingesting the peppermint. This is telling my KOR receptors are deeply saturated to the point I can't even upregulate this network anymore. Terrific!

 

Awesome results! But wouldn't you have to go through an initial period of increased anxiety? How long did it take you to downregulate the KOR receptor in this way?



#15 Synaptik

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 12:01 AM

 

Absolutely. Methol in pure peppermint oil - a little less than one full tablespoon at night. It's a selective KOR agonist from my understanding, and I was looking for something that touched just that.

 

As an update, it appears the dopamine pathways have mitigated somewhat. I'm not quite as "edgy" and quick-triggered as when I started, so I'm guessing my brain is adapting to constant D2 suppression. However, D2 baseline is subjectively lower. I want to test with mucana puriens when I get the chance. For now, raising D2 with a combo of turmeric poweder, theanine from green tea and Ginkgo tincture.

 

In terms of the anti-anxiety effect, it's still present and hasn't reduced at all. This is the best part! I'm hoping it will continue this way since I'm using an agonist to constantly create rebound KOR antagonism, so I anticipate overall KOR down regulation as a net long term effect, which is what I'm aiming for.

 

Also, I noticed last night I became deeply EUPHORIC after ingesting the peppermint. This is telling my KOR receptors are deeply saturated to the point I can't even upregulate this network anymore. Terrific!

 

Awesome results! But wouldn't you have to go through an initial period of increased anxiety? How long did it take you to downregulate the KOR receptor in this way?

 

 

Yes, I'm quite pleased with the results, except for the aforementioned dopamine down regulation (so the experiment isn't over yet). The later is definitely problematic for me, and I would imagine it would be for most people. However, the main aim was to see if KOR down regulation (through agonist saturation) was effective for anxiety, and it positively is for me. 

 

Regarding your question, there wasn't really any initial anxiety. When I first started, the peppermint oil felt slightly dysphoric, akin to one small toke and exhale of a small salvia joint. You totally know what's going on, but it kind of feels like being in a dark forest and perceiving mind perceptions which may or may not be true. There's wasn't anxiety afterwards, only noticeable D2 down regulation as I continued to take it throughout the weak (2 day break on weekends). KOR Down regulation happened fairly quickly; anti-anxiety effects probably kicked in first week after 2-3 attempts.

 

Since HDAC inhibitors seem so effective without the D2 down regulation, I wonder if peppermint + mucana puriens + Butyrate or vornistat would be a amazing combination for social/general anxiety - especially of the non-acute type which have negatively activated KOR system over time causing irrational fear responses.

 


Edited by Synaptik, 08 December 2016 - 12:06 AM.


#16 Ames

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 08:55 PM

Interesting method as far as peppermint oil goes. I hadn't thought of that. Though, I was under the impression that the KOR agonism of peppermint does not act centrally enough. You contradict this assumption with your interpretation of your experience with a concentrated form.

 

While I am optimistic that this method would be currently perhaps the only widely legal viable means of effective KOR agonism, I'd also be interested in your continued experience.

 

Personally, I would watch for any difference in the effect of peppermint oil ingestion when the frequency of ingestion is altered. Does taking it every other day or every three days (or more) produce a more reliable effect than every day?  Why I suggest this is because, in my experience, using substances to cause an upregulation effect can be trickier. The upregulation can be delayed, it can improve with lesser frequency of ingestion, and it can be suppressed when either frequency of administration is too often or the volume of what you take is too much. Though, also, you can't err too far on the side of low frequency or volume. There tends to be a sweet spot for frequency and the amount of substance taken to get an optimal upregulation effect. In my experience.

 

To establish a clean KOR agonist effect over the long term, what I would personally watch for is anxiety rebound. If it occurs, you will likely begin to notice it on the day following intake of peppermint oil. If it does not occur, and your mood continues to remain level for days after peppermint ingestion, then you may have a winning method. Though, if there is going to be a future negative effect then it could take months to develop. Keep us posted and thanks.

 

Also, please keep us updated not only with the continuing evolution of any positive effect or the negative effect mentioned, but also in terms of other possible effects on cognition such as on memory, etc. If you would be so kind. Thanks again, and congratulations on the attenuation of what you were going through. That's a special type of hell.


Edited by golgi1, 20 December 2016 - 09:03 PM.


#17 Junipersun

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:53 PM

Why not go straight to menthol crystals? It's dirt cheap as they use it for saunas. Do you get any stomach discomfort from the peppermint oil? What about your breath? Doesn't still smell funny in the mornings?



#18 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:26 PM

Why do you dose 25 g of Tributyrin specifically? I have used a comparatively tiny dose (

Nutricology, ButyrAid) and I thought I got some benefits.



#19 zorba990

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:38 PM

Don't have the ref handy but as I recall too much butyrate will irritate rather than heal the intestines.

#20 Junipersun

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 12:09 PM

Why do you dose 25 g of Tributyrin specifically? I have used a comparatively tiny dose (

Nutricology, ButyrAid) and I thought I got some benefits.

 

Because 25-30g is the lowest dose which shows robust HDACi activity for somemone with my size (65kg). We're talking about Tributyrin here, not Butyrate (like ButyrAid), which is useless for fear extinction because of low bioavailability and a very short half life.


Edited by Junipersun, 22 December 2016 - 12:14 PM.


#21 Ames

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 07:07 PM

This seems to be just about the only active EMDR discussion currently, so I thought I'd post on my initial experiences with bilateral stimulation here.

 

Currently, I'm working off of the two following hypotheses:

 

1. All anxiety or other PTSD symptoms are the manifestation of a horribly inefficient "exposure therapy" of sorts that one becomes locked into. This is why, over an extended period of time, many psychological effects from trauma will at least somewhat fade. The brain is only doing a poor job of processing the trauma in an expedient manner, but the exposure is there nevertheless. Thus, it isn't necessary to add therapist facilitated exposure therapy in addition to eye movements, or bilateral stimulation, for bilateral stimulation to be effective. This may hold more true as the effects from trauma are more acute; as this may telegraph that increased exposure is taking place. 

 

To restate: simply, if you need EMDR therapy then the bilateral stimulation should be effective without therapist facilitated exposure therapy; as the anxiety is present from ever-ongoing slow exposure. Though, that does not mean that further facilitation may not speed up whatever bilateral stimulation does (or complicate it possibly), it just means that one should theoretically be able to realize the benefits of bilateral stimulation without the formal EMDR process if one would benefit from bilateral stimulation in a more formal EMDR setting.

 

2. The majority effect from the EMDR comes from the neurophysiological effect of the bilateral stimulation. In other words, small differences in bilateral stimulation technique will likely make a greater difference than any difference in exposure technique. This hypothesis arises only from my experience in coaxing mental or physical changes in myself over the years. I've always found that physical changes in habit are far more profound than any mental change, even when attempting to remedy any effect, such as trauma, that first arose from changes in non-physical experience such as from changes in the interpersonal realm.

 

My initial experiences in performing bilateral stimulation at home:

 

I started using this free web app, which, by the way, I like due to the ability to adjust the speed and color of the cube:

 

http//:easyemdr.com/index.html

 

I found this paper, which hints at the fact that faster eye movement speeds are better at extinguishing traumatic memory (though long term emotionality was not reduced, which they could not explain):

 

Speed Matters: Relationship between Speed of Eye Movements and Modification of Aversive Autobiographical Memories.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25904871

 

Multi-level modeling revealed a consistent pattern for all outcome measures: recall + fast EM led to less emotional, less vivid and more difficult to retrieve images than recall + slow EM and recall only, and the effects of recall + slow EM felt consistently in between the effects of recall + fast EM and recall only, but only differed significantly from recall + fast EM

 

For the first few days, I tried several 60 second periods of eye movements at increasing speeds; doing at least two sessions of eye movements at the highest speed each day; and mixing these sessions in with slower settings in the above mentioned web app. From this mixture of speed, I felt an immediate calming of the brain but no further effect. The anxiety that I've been plagued with to an increasing degree, at night when I sleep, remained.

 

Over the following few days, I attempted to gauge what a technique at the other end of the speed spectrum might bring.

 

I stopped using the web app, and merely moved my eyes a slow as I could, to each side, and even held my eyes to each side for an extended period. This technique brought no immediate sensation of relief other than that caused, perhaps, by the stretch and use of ocular muscles that had been neglected through a lack of this type of movement. However, at night, my dreams deepened, my sleep deepened, and my anxiety was markedly dampened. 


Edited by golgi1, 24 December 2016 - 07:12 PM.

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#22 Junipersun

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 11:58 AM

golgi1, I'm not really getting your argument here. So you are saying that you need only bilateral stimulation, without any exposure therapy, to get effects in terms of what? From my understanding, it's mostly the exposure therapy that works in emdr, the bilateral stimulation only makes it a bit more effective than coventional exposure therapy. That the speed of eye movements makes a difference is a good find though!


Edited by Junipersun, 30 December 2016 - 12:01 PM.

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#23 monowav

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 02:06 PM

Seems like 2 places to get Tributryin:

http://www.sigmaaldr...aldrich/w222305

and

https://www.fishersc...nics-3/p-202519



#24 Ames

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:43 AM

golgi1, I'm not really getting your argument here. So you are saying that you need only bilateral stimulation, without any exposure therapy, to get effects in terms of what? From my understanding, it's mostly the exposure therapy that works in emdr, the bilateral stimulation only makes it a bit more effective than coventional exposure therapy. That the speed of eye movements makes a difference is a good find though!

 

I'm saying that slow eye movements (described in better detail below) bring anxiety relief and, for me, an over-all more even emotional tone with time.

 

I'd be more comfortable calling my 'current anxiety may equal exposure' hypothesis, rather than an argument, a working hypothesis that theoretically and partially underlies a method with which I'm having positive results. I don't wish it to seem like I'm asserting any of this hypothesis as conclusion.

 

I'm equating a state of anxiety to exposure; though I haven't gone through any formal exposure therapy myself to be able to note any difference in the emotional effect of GA and exposure due to specific exposure therapeutic technique.

 

But as I understand it, aside from exposure being more controlled (potentially) in a formal therapeutic environment, a state of anxiety should not be much different than the effect of basic exposure therapy: at its root.

 

Though, this hypothesis isn't so important to experimentation with this low impact technique.

 

Agree with this hypothesis or not (I'm not personally attached to it), it may not matter as far as the slow eye movement technique's results are concerned. That is, it may not matter if anxiety is roughly equivalent to exposure therapy for the slow eye movements to reduce it. It may be that the slow eye movement technique could work whether there is a type of exposure present or not.

 

I read what you are asserting as well, that the exposure therapy is the primary therapeutic technique, but that has not been my direct experience with the (slow) eye movement-only technique. I can't vouch for normal speed EMDR with formal exposure therapy nor for exposure therapy on its own. Only that this modified slow EMDR approach works well enough to not be relegated a therapy that is held to give to a minor effect. Though, normal-to-fast speed eye movements, without exposure therapy, did nothing for me beyond immediate and short term (very minor) relief. The technique that I am endorsing provides no immediate relief in my limited experience, but rather seems to kick in the next day after one sleeps. 

 

This is still working for me. I try to do 1-2 sessions per day, probably not totaling much more than 20-30 seconds per session (for want of time, otherwise I might do more). I simply do the aforementioned modified approach when in the shower, resting on a couch, etc.

 

I have experimented with doing only one side per day, on either side on different days, and each time it has had a different effect. I should probably experiment more with that.

 

However, for now, my favorite method is holding to the right side for around 3/4 of the time (ie: 15 seconds) and to the left side for 1/4 of the time (ie: for 5 seconds).

 

I might switch back and forth twice, but sometimes not even that.

 

Currently, I can't vouch at all for what might constitute an ideal time spent on each session. The above is only a rather random timeframe that I've been working with. Longer (or possibly slightly shorter) hold times might bring different effects. I also don't yet know if one might realize a continuously enhanced effect with a gradual increase in session time. These parameters are something with which to experiment.

 

My advice would be to experiment with this yourselves, in terms of experiencing any effect, session timeframes, and hold time ratio between right and left, as its as easy a technique as can be had and there is nothing to lose. My experimentation, so far, has just been that and the specific method should be played with.

 

My current justification for favoring the right side for 3/4 of the hold time, is that stimulation of the left hemisphere over the right hemisphere might work to reduce illogical emotion in favor of logical processing of that emotion. This working hypothesis isn't any more scientific than that, and should be questioned and experimented with.

 

Other than a more even emotional state, a primary effect has been deeper dreaming that, for me, came immediately. Perhaps look for that effect as a precursor to a better emotional state that might build after some time performing the technique. That is, if you experience the deeper dreaming but not much else at first, consider keeping with it. Though, also look for a primary emotional effect even without an enhanced dream state. This method could very well effect people differently.

 

The state that this technique brings, for me, is exciting because it seems to hint at a tangible neuro-therapeutic effect that can be had for zero cost to include expensive tools or therapists. You don't need to invest in an expensive neuro-feedback setup, for instance (which I have but over which I currently prefer this technique), nor even EMDR software, but can manipulate what seems to be your EEG? neuro-architecture? whatever it turns out to be, for what could be good benefit, using nothing but your free time and slow eye movements.


Edited by golgi1, 10 January 2017 - 03:31 AM.


#25 Simon Silver

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:13 AM

I was wondering recently if the remission of autistic traits of patients taking high dose sulforaphane was partly due to HDACi induced fear extinction. The dose was calculated by a blogger as 40 grams b. sprouts per day, which would be 12 or so grams sprout powder. I've been unable to find the ic50 of sulforaphane to use in comparison with Vorinostat or butyrate to determine appropriate dosage to inhibit HDAC. Regardless I 'm going to try this dosage daily mixed in with a vegenaise shrimp or clam salad with watercress for myrosinase and additional HDAC inhibition by PEITC, with fresh crushed garlic for the 8-allyl mercaptan. I have ASD so that may cloud results a bit but I will at least recognize fear extinction if it occurs, I have significant GAD. I'm sad to hear straight butyrate like Butyraid is worthless, I will include BRM Potato Starch in the seafood salad wrap, thats another supplement I wasted money on. Through znaturalfoods the sprout powder should cost 23 dollars a month or thereabouts. Ive found that when I find ways to turn my supplementation into dishes to eat I care less about the cost for some reason.

Sorry if this is not directly on topic. Dietary daily HDAC inhibition with fear extinction resulting could change everything for those of us with anxiety disorders. I'm open to therapy as well but my issues are more generalized then acute and harder to pin down then PTSD trauma which can be revisited concisely.
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#26 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:32 PM

I was wondering recently if the remission of autistic traits of patients taking high dose sulforaphane was partly due to HDACi induced fear extinction. The dose was calculated by a blogger as 40 grams b. sprouts per day, which would be 12 or so grams sprout powder. I've been unable to find the ic50 of sulforaphane to use in comparison with Vorinostat or butyrate to determine appropriate dosage to inhibit HDAC. Regardless I 'm going to try this dosage daily mixed in with a vegenaise shrimp or clam salad with watercress for myrosinase and additional HDAC inhibition by PEITC, with fresh crushed garlic for the 8-allyl mercaptan. I have ASD so that may cloud results a bit but I will at least recognize fear extinction if it occurs, I have significant GAD. I'm sad to hear straight butyrate like Butyraid is worthless, I will include BRM Potato Starch in the seafood salad wrap, thats another supplement I wasted money on. Through znaturalfoods the sprout powder should cost 23 dollars a month or thereabouts. Ive found that when I find ways to turn my supplementation into dishes to eat I care less about the cost for some reason.

Sorry if this is not directly on topic. Dietary daily HDAC inhibition with fear extinction resulting could change everything for those of us with anxiety disorders. I'm open to therapy as well but my issues are more generalized then acute and harder to pin down then PTSD trauma which can be revisited concisely.

Personally I am convinced that sulforaphan and butyrate do something for mood in the relatively low doses of typically supplements, I am not sure if it's from HDACi though. I will try veronistat in the next few days and let you guys know how it compares.



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Posted 12 January 2017 - 01:17 AM

golgi1!

 

I'm really excited that somebody has begun talking of mere existence as a type of slow-burning extinction therapy, perhaps in many cases lacking the critical mass needed to heal the person. Can I ask you a question: is it PTSD you're trying to heal? Because having generalised anxiety and not PTSD complicates matters to do with extinction therapy even further. After a while, this generalised anxiety becomes the fear of having symptoms/not getting better. I think the same thing has already been mentioned by another person in a sister HDACi thread, and this is exactly how I feel. And there's academic writing supporting this view.



#28 tolerant

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 01:27 AM

 

Why do you dose 25 g of Tributyrin specifically? I have used a comparatively tiny dose (

Nutricology, ButyrAid) and I thought I got some benefits.

 

Because 25-30g is the lowest dose which shows robust HDACi activity for somemone with my size (65kg). We're talking about Tributyrin here, not Butyrate (like ButyrAid), which is useless for fear extinction because of low bioavailability and a very short half life.

 

 

I have asked this question before and I will ask it again in the hope that somebody knows the answer.  All the studies I have come across in regards to fear extinction use SODIUM butyrate. There, I have used all the available formatting means to draw attention that it's sodium butyrate and not calcium and magnesium butyrate present in ButryAid. Wouldn't you therefore need a sodium butyrate formula?

 

Can somebody versed in chemistry/biology please explain?


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#29 Ames

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:30 PM

golgi1!

 

I'm really excited that somebody has begun talking of mere existence as a type of slow-burning extinction therapy, perhaps in many cases lacking the critical mass needed to heal the person. Can I ask you a question: is it PTSD you're trying to heal? Because having generalised anxiety and not PTSD complicates matters to do with extinction therapy even further. After a while, this generalised anxiety becomes the fear of having symptoms/not getting better. I think the same thing has already been mentioned by another person in a sister HDACi thread, and this is exactly how I feel. And there's academic writing supporting this view.

 

@tolerant,

 

I apologize for the delay. I hadn't checked in again with the forum until now.

 

PTSD for much of my life (acute for five years in early twenties, then gradually getting better with time - though residual, if manageable, personality effects will likely always remain); complicated with GA, in the past three years, that I acquired due to an extended bad experience. The GA, now ( but increasingly less so), is the overwhelming felt experience at this juncture.

 

I can relate to the experience of the GA, itself, feeding into what is causing the anxiety.

 

Essentially, this is the only thing that I've experienced that got worse with time and non-treatment. Depression always got better. Going on the PTSD experience, I had thought, wrongly, that gritting my teeth and riding the Tiger would see it improve with time. I was wrong.

 

It slowly began to invade my sleep, which was before a refuge, and I would have anxiety bursts while dreaming, in the middle of the night, that essentially made it so that there was no period in which I wasn't subject to it. This was just in the past year, over two years into the whole experience. Dreams that would showcase the root of my anxiety were a regular experience, and may still occur but I have not had them since I started with the slow eye movements.

 

As of now, my sleep is blissfully peaceful and my overall anxiety is down from a high of 9 or 10 at its peak on a ten point scale, to probably a 1 to 3 now depending on what I am doing. Over the course of the entire experience, I probably averaged a 5 or 6, every day, on a ten point scale. Now, it pretty much only comes when I specifically concentrate on the root of my anxiety, whereas before it was almost always present.

 

I may have improved on the eye movement technique, as now my prior migraines seem to be mitigated and I seem to be better assured to receive restful sleep even when going to bed later (that habit would prior generally throw my system off quite a bit). The anxiety reduction is still there.

 

Instead of moving and holding my eyes only to the Left and the Right, I now hit all four directions: moving Right, Left, Down, and Up.

 

Slowly, holding my eyes in each position, until I get the sense, sometimes but not always through the mildest of muscle strain, that I have held long enough.

 

I don't tend to hold for a specific length of time beyond as many seconds as I feel like it. In other words, as long as the movements are held for a least a few seconds, maybe five at minimum. I might average fifteen seconds in each position, making the entire procedure last one minute per day.


Edited by golgi1, 29 January 2017 - 07:31 PM.


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#30 Junipersun

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 11:19 PM

 

 

Why do you dose 25 g of Tributyrin specifically? I have used a comparatively tiny dose (

Nutricology, ButyrAid) and I thought I got some benefits.

 

Because 25-30g is the lowest dose which shows robust HDACi activity for somemone with my size (65kg). We're talking about Tributyrin here, not Butyrate (like ButyrAid), which is useless for fear extinction because of low bioavailability and a very short half life.

 

 

I have asked this question before and I will ask it again in the hope that somebody knows the answer.  All the studies I have come across in regards to fear extinction use SODIUM butyrate. There, I have used all the available formatting means to draw attention that it's sodium butyrate and not calcium and magnesium butyrate present in ButryAid. Wouldn't you therefore need a sodium butyrate formula?

 

Can somebody versed in chemistry/biology please explain?

 

 

The studys you came across were carried out with rats, which can be treated by injecting huge amounts of sodium butryrate. As you are a human, you won't get any usable HDACi activity by taking any form of butyrate (sodium or otherwise) because of low bioavailability and short half life. You need to use Tributyrin or get some Vorinostat, which I'd prefer just because of simpler handling.


Edited by Junipersun, 04 February 2017 - 11:20 PM.





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