Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:20 PM
Fascinating thread! Been some great stuff here lately.
Since Vorinostat is now available and I happen to have my hands on some, should I try it in conjunction with EMDR, or in another setting first.
I also have many AS traits, and though I would put my past daily anxiety at a 6, it would quickly escalate in social situations. Plus, anyone with anxiety issues understands how even a minimal amount of anxiety, if constant, can be a huge drain on mental(and physical energy).
Posted 12 February 2017 - 07:24 AM
Posted 12 February 2017 - 06:48 PM
This thread is fascinating to me. I've done all types of therapy in an attempt to work through trauma but still seem to be stuck in what essentially feels like permanent fight or flight. Can someone give me a dummies version on HDACi's? Last I researched this topic fear extinction was pointing towards NMDA antagonists I believe. I had some experience with d-cyclosorine as well without much luck.
This gives me some hope
HDACis are clearly distinct from d-cyclosorine in their action. This thread over at reddit sums it up quite well: Link
Have you done some type of exposition training before?
Posted 12 February 2017 - 06:51 PM
Fascinating thread! Been some great stuff here lately.
Since Vorinostat is now available and I happen to have my hands on some, should I try it in conjunction with EMDR, or in another setting first.
I also have many AS traits, and though I would put my past daily anxiety at a 6, it would quickly escalate in social situations. Plus, anyone with anxiety issues understands how even a minimal amount of anxiety, if constant, can be a huge drain on mental(and physical energy).
You need to know where your anxiety stems from in order to be able to use vorinostat. If that's the case, I see no reason not to use EMDR, as it does the job clearly better than normal exposition therapy - there are numerous studys to back this up.
Posted 12 February 2017 - 07:06 PM
This thread is fascinating to me. I've done all types of therapy in an attempt to work through trauma but still seem to be stuck in what essentially feels like permanent fight or flight. Can someone give me a dummies version on HDACi's? Last I researched this topic fear extinction was pointing towards NMDA antagonists I believe. I had some experience with d-cyclosorine as well without much luck.
This gives me some hope
HDACis are clearly distinct from d-cyclosorine in their action. This thread over at reddit sums it up quite well: Link
Have you done some type of exposition training before?
Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:04 AM
You need to know where your anxiety stems from in order to be able to use vorinostat. If that's the case, I see no reason not to use EMDR, as it does the job clearly better than normal exposition therapy - there are numerous studys to back this up.
I disagree. A lot of trauma-sufferers report relief from body focused work, like myofascial-Release, Rolfing or the so called Trauma Release Exercises. Imo, Trauma is stored in the entire body, not just the mind. These techniques work without focusing on specific triggers and in my experience this applies to EMDR, too - you can start out empty-minded and during EMDR issues pop up.
i believe a HDACi could enhance all of these processes.
Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:08 PM
You need to know where your anxiety stems from in order to be able to use vorinostat. If that's the case, I see no reason not to use EMDR, as it does the job clearly better than normal exposition therapy - there are numerous studys to back this up.
I disagree. A lot of trauma-sufferers report relief from body focused work, like myofascial-Release, Rolfing or the so called Trauma Release Exercises. Imo, Trauma is stored in the entire body, not just the mind. These techniques work without focusing on specific triggers and in my experience this applies to EMDR, too - you can start out empty-minded and during EMDR issues pop up.
i believe a HDACi could enhance all of these processes.
You might be right about this, but in the end, we don't have any scientific data to back this up. All we know is that it helps in simplistic animal models of ptsd, which work with very basic fear extincition trainings to specific triggers. We don't even know how that translates to humans and the real world, other than some anecdotal evidence here on this forum. That said, I would be very interested to know how HDACis help without the cognitive basis of knowing where the anxiety stems from.
Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:32 PM
I feel like the descriptions in somatic experiencing therapy are some of the most useful for trauma. Here is a paste from facebook that someone wrote that I am borrowing. I read the book myself too, but this writing is not mine:
Been reading Peter Levine's 'Waking the tiger' and i've been writing down some paragraphs from the book that resonate with me especially just as a breakdown if I ever want to go back and reread them without reading the whole book again. I thought I would share this info with you guys especially those who haven't read it and were interested. Hope that's ok. See below (everything in Peter's words of course)
- When our nervous system prepares us to meet danger, the shift into highly energised states. If we can discharge this energy while actively and effectively defending against threat (or shortly after the threatening event) the nervous system will move back toward a normal level of functioning.
- If the threat has not been dealt with successfully, energy stays in our bodies. We have now created a self- perpetuating dilemma. On a physiological level, our bodies and minds work in tandem as one integrated system. We know that we are in danger when we perceive an external threat and our nervous system becomes highly aroused.
- The nervous system alone is incapable of discharging energy. This creates a self- perpetuating cycle of activation that will overload the system if it continues indefinitely.
- The nervous system compensates for being in a state of self-perpetuating arousal by setting off a chain of adaptions that eventually bind and organize the energy into symptoms. These adaptations function as a safety valve to the nervous system.
- The symptoms of trauma can be stable (ever present) unstable (will come and go) or they can hide for decades. Generally, these symptoms do not occur individually but in constellations. These syndromes often grow increasingly complex over time, becoming less and less connected with the original trauma experience. While certain symptoms can suggest a particular type of trauma, no symptom is exclusively indicative of the trauma that caused it. People will manifest traumatic symptoms differently, depending on the nature and severity of the trauma, the situation in which it occurred, and the personal and developmental resources available to the individual at the time of the experience.
- Trauma sufferers often find ourselves on a treadmill over which we have no control. We may be driven to avoid situations that evoke both authentic excitement and relaxation, because either could disrupt the equilibrium that our symptoms need to maintain their stability.
- There is a way to take back the control of our bodies that is lost when traumatic aftereffects become chronic. It is possible to deliberately stimulate the nervous system into becoming aroused and then to gently discharge the arousal. Remember, hyper arousal and its allied mechanisms are a direct result of the energy involuntarily mobilized by the nervous system specifically in response to threat.
- Few symptoms provide more insight into a traumatic experience than hypervigilance. Hypervigilance is a direct and immediate manifestation of hyper arousal, which is the initial response to threat. Its effect on the orienting response is particularly debilitating, setting the traumatized individual up for an ongoing experience of fear, paralysis and victimization.
- Hypervigilance occurs when the hyper arousal that accompanies the initial response to danger activates an amplified, compulsive version of the orienting response. This distorted orienting response is so compelling that the individual feels utterly driven to identify the source of the threat even though it is a response to internal arousal rather than anything sensed in the external environment.
- Hypervigilance becomes one of the ways we manage the excess energy resulting from an unsuccessful defense against an original threat. We use hypervigilance to channel some fo that energy into the muscles of the head, neck, eyes in an obsessive search for danger. When combined with the internal arousal that is still present, our rational brains can become irrational. They begin to search for an identify external sources of danger. In the hyper vigilant state, all change (including changes in our own internal states) is perceived as a threat.
- As the freezing response gradually becomes more and more entrenched, the tendency for hyper vigilance and defense grows stronger. Hyper vigilant people are keyed to a state of intense alertness at the times and may actually develop a slightly furtive or fearful, open eyes appearance due to this constant watchfulness. There is a growing tendency to see danger where there is none, and a diminished capacity to experience curiosity, pleasure, and the joy of life. All this occurs because at the core of our beings we simply do not feel safe.
- We search compulsively for the threat that can’t be found, even when a real threat stands before us. The nervous system can become so activated that it cannot readily tune down. As a result, behavioural and physiological rhythms, (eg sleep) may be disturbed. We will be unable to unwind or relax, even in those moments when we feel safe enough to do so.
- Chronic helplessness occurs as the freezing, orienting and defending responses become so fixated and weakened that they move primarily along predetermined and dysfunctional pathways. Chronic helplessness joins hypervigilance and the inability to learn new behaviours as yet another common feature of the traumatized person’s reality.
- All trauma sufferers experience the phenomenon of chronic helplessness to some extent. As a result, we have difficulty participating fully, especially in new situations. For those of us who experience and identify with helplessness, any escape or forward movement is virtually impossible. We become victims of our own thoughts and self-images.
- When our physiology responds to an event or stimuli with arousal, we do not move into an orienting and defending response like a healthy human. Instead we move directly from the arousal into immobility and helplessness, bypassing our other emotions as well as the normal sequence of responses. We become victims, waiting to be victimized again and again.
- The aroused state that will not go away, the ongoing sense of danger, the ceaseless search for that danger, the inability to find it, dissociation, a feeling of helplessness- together these elements form traumatic anxiety. When we fail to move through the immobility response, the resulting biological message is ‘Your life is hanging in the balance’. This sense of impending death is intensified by the feelings of rage, terror, panic and helplessness. All of these factors combine to produce a phenomenon known as traumatic anxiety.
- Traumatic anxiety displays itself as nervousness, fretting and worrying, and in appearing to be high strung. The sufferer frequently experiences panic, dread, and highly over-dramatized reactions to trivial events. These maladies are not permanent fixtures of the personality, but are indicative of a nervous system temporarily, though perpetually, overwhelmed.
Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:24 PM
I keep wondering if sensory gating issues don't create hyper vigilant state? Or say, my oldest son, who is AS, has perfect pitch and an exceptional sense of smell, not to mention heightened sense of touch, can't that lead to hypervigilance?
I mention this because my wife was assaulted in college and shows classical signs of PTSD; while, my oldest son cannot point to the root of his anxiety, nor an I. We have always just had very strong fight/flight responses. If either of us are startled we practically jump out of our skin, far more so than, say, my wife.
Posted 16 February 2017 - 01:09 PM
I keep wondering if sensory gating issues don't create hyper vigilant state? Or say, my oldest son, who is AS, has perfect pitch and an exceptional sense of smell, not to mention heightened sense of touch, can't that lead to hypervigilance?
I mention this because my wife was assaulted in college and shows classical signs of PTSD; while, my oldest son cannot point to the root of his anxiety, nor an I. We have always just had very strong fight/flight responses. If either of us are startled we practically jump out of our skin, far more so than, say, my wife.
That would make sense that having to process too much because of less filtering could easily get overwhelming. The less you filter out the more potential sources of danger there are to be a trigger of anxiety.
Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:26 PM
You need to know where your anxiety stems from in order to be able to use vorinostat. If that's the case, I see no reason not to use EMDR, as it does the job clearly better than normal exposition therapy - there are numerous studys to back this up.
I disagree. A lot of trauma-sufferers report relief from body focused work, like myofascial-Release, Rolfing or the so called Trauma Release Exercises. Imo, Trauma is stored in the entire body, not just the mind. These techniques work without focusing on specific triggers and in my experience this applies to EMDR, too - you can start out empty-minded and during EMDR issues pop up.
i believe a HDACi could enhance all of these processes.
I talked to a psychologist and experienced EMDR practitioner. He told me he'd use the brainspotting method instead of EMDR for people who can't name a specific trigger. Also he told me, that this method is lot more body focused. It still has some similarities with emdr, as it uses the eyes as a main anchor. Would be really interesting to know how it combines with Vorionstat.
Posted 17 June 2017 - 11:09 AM
similar to a monk, who would intake only very little dietary choline and tyrosine on a given day, you might wonder how he keeps everything in check, how he keeps his cool (or does he? 
). however we needn't overlook the propensity of phytochems to balance out acetylcholine and dopamine turnover or function. in the same way, you can get a great amount of HDAC inhibition from nothing more than a high polyphenol/flavonoid diet.
More recently, dietary HDAC inhibitors have been shown to have a regulatory effect similar to that of pharmacological HDAC inhibitors without the possible side-effects.
and shockingly, the natural approach is unaccompanied the nasty side-effects or concerns of bio-availability about which the above posters are so apprehensive.
you might try stacking it with EMDR as that thread suggested. i guess so. you might as well try it with meditation, LLLT, tMS, dual-n-back or whatever bullshit you subscribe to, really
Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:21 PM
Posted 30 January 2023 - 04:02 PM
Because 25-30g is the lowest dose which shows robust HDACi activity for somemone with my size (65kg). We're talking about Tributyrin here, not Butyrate (like ButyrAid), which is useless for fear extinction because of low bioavailability and a very short half life.
Can you link the study in regards to the dosage? I found one study on rats with cancer which suggested a human equivalent dosage of up to 240 mg/kg of body weight, which would have put your dosage closer to 15g.
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