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Microdose lithium timing / long-term usage

lithium

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#1 brosci

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 11:01 PM


I'm thinking about throwing some of the LifeExtension "Memory Protect" in my regimen for a while.  This will provide 300 micrograms of lithium (as lithium orotate) and 100 micrograms of colostrum.  This seems like a tiny amount of Li and Colostrum -- I've seen scoops of the colostrum milk powder available and it seems like mineral water has higher concentrations of lithium.

 

Is this too low-dosed to be effective, or a worthwhile addition to my stack?  Would it be best to time this before breakfast (empty stomach), with a meal during the day, or before bed?


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#2 RWhigham

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:18 AM

Re lithium

This Japanese study showed an 8% lower mortality rate in a community with 1.5 mg/L of lithium in their drinking water. Comunities with 300 mcg/L of lithium in their drinking water did not have a reduced mortality.  https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3151375/ 

 

This study of over 1 million people shows a dose response trend for lithium. The scatter diagram shows mortality rates all over the place, but a trend toward lower mortality with more lithium is there. The increase in mortality at 2 mg/L is just part of the scatter plot irregularities. You can see a trend but extrapolating an upturn from that one point is not justified. There is also a slight increase in lifespan shown for worms given lithium.

 

In my notes I have a warning that 20 mg per day of lithium is known to lower lifespan - but I did not save the source. This was to remind me that more becomes not better at some point. Personally, I divide a small 5 mg lithium tablet into quarters, and take a quarter each day. This gives me 1.25 mg plus whatever is in my food.


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#3 adamh

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:32 AM

I've been taking a 5mg li cap every day just about. I can't say I notice any difference but I guess you would not. Caps can't be divided very easy, I don't think 5mg a day is anything to worry about. You probably will not absorb it all anyway, maybe half or less. Dissolved in drinking water its probably in a form to absorb more easily. 


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#4 RWhigham

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 04:35 AM

http://anelloclinic....fits-of-lithium This article says 10-20 mg per day of lithium orotate can regrow the neurons in your brain.

 

The rest of this post is about lithium preventing Alzheimer's disease.

But first, it helps to understand AMPK activation by its alpha, beta, and gamma subunits

 

AMPK has 12 different variants in different tissues, resulting from each subunit having several variations. AMPK gets activated when cells are underfed during starvation, fasting, or muscle exhaustion. One could write a book about all the things AMPK does to restore/maintain ATP to help us survive starvation. AMPK has 3 control subunits alpha, beta, and gamma which all must be enabled to activate AMPK. (1) The alpha subunit is usually activated globally by liver kinase B1 (LKB1) which is normally present but provides the liver with a master deactivation switch. However, in neurons, the alpha subunit is enabled instead by CAMKK2 when it senses a high Ca2+ level in the cell. (2) The beta subunit is deactivated by glycogen on a cell by cell basis. An ample supply of glycogen in a cell inhibits AMPK (eg in muscles). In neurons the beta subunit may be deactivated by some other excess energy substrate, but in the study below it appears to be normally activated. (3) The gamma subunit is activated by a low ATP/AMP ratio on a cell by cell basis ie this is the local "energy sensor". It gets turned on by low ATP in a cell. Take away - AMPK is activated in neurons when two things happen:(1) CAMKK2 at the alpha subunit senses high Ca2+, and (b) the gamma subunit senses low ATP/AMP ratio (assuming the gamma subunit works the same in neurons as everywhere else).

 

http://www.cell.com/...6273(13)00133-5 This article says the cause of old age onset Alzheimer's disease is phosphorylation of the tau protein in neurons by activated AMPK. The repeatedly phosphorylated tau proteins end up in tangles that kill the neuron.

 

Article Summary:

Neuron AMPK is activated when CAMKK2 at its alpha subunit senses a high Ca2+ level in the neuron. Ca2+ influx comes through a pore gated by the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor and blocked by a Mg2+ ion. The pore gets opened when the NMDA's two subunits are activated and a blocking Mg2+ ion moves out of the pore after the neuron has been completely depolarized for a sufficiently long time. Ca2+ rushes in at the beginning of the repolarization cycle (before Mg2+ can plug it up again). Take away - Alzheimer's needs Ca2+ influx which needs both NMDA subunits to be activated, and the neuron to be completely depolarized. Complete depolarization requires multiple firings within a short period of time. NMDA subunits require a molecule made by adjacent support cells (several different molecules work) and a gradual accumulation of glutamate created when neurons fires. (Only a tiny bit of glutamate reaches the NMDA receptor at a time).

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...icles/PMC19446/  "Chronic lithium treatment robustly protects neurons in the central nervous system against excitotoxicity by inhibiting N-methyl-d-aspartate receptor-mediated calcium influx"

 

The title says it all. Lithium inhibits Ca2+ influx through the NMDA. That prevents the CAMKK2 Ca2+ sensor from turning on the alpha subunit of AMPK. It follows that less AMPK activation -> less tau tangles -> less neuron death -> less Alzheimer's. However, the author is quick to say that lithium slows down Alzheimer's, but does not prevent it (?). It seems to me the gamma subunit of AMPK has to turn on too, and that shouldn't happen in neurons, if the brain is never allowed to starve. Maybe the gamma subunit in neurons gets activated a different way.

 

I'm going to up my lithium orotate to 5 mg/day for now, and continue my research.

 


Edited by RWhigham, 21 December 2016 - 04:42 AM.

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#5 brosci

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 09:44 PM

It follows that less AMPK activation -> less tau tangles -> less neuron death -> less Alzheimer's.

Very interesting.  I was under the assumption that more AMPK was an ideal strategy against Alz development via a low carb diet, caloric restriction and intermittent fasting, as a means to get more autophagy and SIRT activation.



#6 RWhigham

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:51 AM

 

 

Very interesting.  I was under the assumption that more AMPK was an ideal strategy against Alz development via a low carb diet, caloric restriction and intermittent fasting, as a means to get more autophagy and SIRT activation.

The http://www.cell.com/...6273(13)00133-5 study shows that activation of AMPK in neurons is responsible for AD. But activation in neurons is controlled differently from elsewhere. AMPK activation in the rest of the body may have nothing to do with it.

 

A closer reading of the above article makes it clear why Ca+ influx reduction by lithium can't stop AD once it's started. Tau protein tangles create ROS (free radicals), and ROS activates AMPK (in some unknown way) creating a positive feedback loop. Tangles -> ROS -> AMPK -> Tangles.  Eventually the tangles are so bad they kill the neuron.

 

Tau protein tangles also increase Ca2+ influx which creates another positive feedback loop. Tangles -> Ca2+ influx -> AMPK -> Tangles. By reduces Ca2+ influx, lithium should slow down the progression of AD. If we could also control the ROS created by tangles, we might slow it a lot more. 

 

The initiating factor in AD could be anything that causes abnormal stress in the neuron, including amyloid beta plaque and the physiological stresses of old age.


Edited by RWhigham, 23 December 2016 - 09:04 AM.

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#7 Oakman

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 04:17 PM

I'd never used Lithium (orotate), so thought I'd try some after reading of its benefits. I bought some 5mg, considered a very low dose from what I read. However, when I took one in the AM, I felt like crap for the next 12hrs approx., little nausea and general unease.

 

I haven't tried since, but have been thinking of splitting the capsule into quarters or thirds and trying again. I'd suggest going low dose and test. It may be just me, but 5mg was not good.


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#8 brosci

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:31 AM

Any thoughts on whether it makes more sense to take microdose lithium in the morning on an empty stomach, during the day with a meal, at dinner with a meal, or before bed?


Edited by brosci, 24 December 2016 - 02:32 AM.


#9 tunt01

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 03:45 PM

 

It follows that less AMPK activation -> less tau tangles -> less neuron death -> less Alzheimer's.

Very interesting.  I was under the assumption that more AMPK was an ideal strategy against Alz development via a low carb diet, caloric restriction and intermittent fasting, as a means to get more autophagy and SIRT activation.

 

 

 

It is not black and white where AMPK activation = good or AMPK activation = bad.  AMPK activation does increase SIRT1 and is preventative of ALZ.  

 

 

 
AMPK activation ameliorates Alzheimer's disease-like pathology and spatial memory impairment in a streptozotocin-induced Alzheimer's disease model in rats.
Du LL, e. (2015). AMPK activation ameliorates Alzheimer's disease-like pathology and spatial memory impairment in a streptozotocin-induced Alzheimer's disease model ... - PubMed - NCBI Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Retrieved 24 December 2016, from https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25114075

 

Collecting evidence has shown that type 2 diabetes mellitus is a high risk factor of late-onset Alzheimer's disease (AD); the energy metabolic dysfunction is thought to be a convergent point of the two diseases. However, the underlying mechanisms of diabetes-associated AD are still unclear. In the current study, we investigated the roles of AMPK in diabetes-related AD-like pathologic features in models of intracerebroventricular-streptozotocin (ICV-STZ) animals. Rats infused with STZ (3 mg/kg, once) were followed by injection of AICAR (AMPK activator) or vehicle via ICV. We found that the level of p-AMPK (active type of AMPK) and SIRT1 activity were decreased and the level of phosphorylated tau was increased at Ser396 and Thr231 sites in ICV-STZ rats when compared with control rats. Mitochondria from ICV-STZ rats displayed a significant decrease in mitochondrial membrane potential, complex I activity, ATP level, and superoxide dismutase activity as well as an increase of reactive oxygen species production when compared with that from control rats. Meanwhile the number of apoptotic cell confirmed by cleaved caspase-3 (active type of caspase-3) staining was also stronger in ICV-STZ rats than control rats. All pathological changes including biochemistry and cognitive function could be mitigated through rescuing AMPK activity with its specific activator (AICAR) in ICV-STZ rats. Taken together, these results suggested that AMPK activation improves AD-like pathological changes via repairing mitochondrial functions in ICV-STZ rats.

 

 

 

 

But most likely it needs to be done in a pulsatile manner similar to an exercise intervention or intermittent fasting, whereas sustained activation or activation in an inappropriate form (metformin?) is detrimental.


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#10 tunt01

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 04:03 PM

Any thoughts on whether it makes more sense to take microdose lithium in the morning on an empty stomach, during the day with a meal, at dinner with a meal, or before bed?

 

I suspect it is best to take on an empty stomach in the AM, because it has some characteristics that look like exercise (which probably should occur away from the fed state).  Lithium seems to prevent the PKC pathway, which is triggered during food consumption (insulin activity) (1).  Lithium also seems to upregulate pgc-1a which is typically found during exercise (2).

 

However, lithium's peak concentration is 1-2 hrs after ingestion, but has a rather long half-life and will be in your system for ~24 hrs at lower levels thereafter (3).

 

 

 

 

1.  Arnsten, A. (2008). Ameliorating prefrontal cortical dysfunction in mental illness: inhibition of phosphotidyl inositol-protein kinase C signaling. Psychopharmacology202(1-3), 445-455. doi:10.1007/s00213-008-1274-9

 

 

2.  http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=376473

 

 

3.  Grandjean, E. & Aubry, J. (2009). Lithium: Updated Human Knowledge Using an Evidence-Based Approach. CNS Drugs23(4), 331-349. doi:10.2165/00023210-200923040-00005


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#11 RWhigham

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 10:04 AM

Du LL, e. (2015). AMPK activation ameliorates Alzheimer's disease-like pathology and spatial memory impairment in a streptozotocin-induced Alzheimer's disease model .

Streptozotocin is injected in mice brains to cause brain-cell apoptosis, and to damage brain-cell mitochondria, releasing ROS and severely reducing ATP. These brain-damaged mice are are proposed as a model for AD and are useful for researching ways to regenerate the brain, although clearly no one gets AD from injecting this toxin.  https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25744568

 

All pathological changes including biochemistry and cognitive function could be mitigated through rescuing AMPK activity with its specific activator (AICAR) in ICV-STZ rats. Taken together, these results suggested that AMPK activation improves AD-like pathological changes via repairing mitochondrial functions in ICV-STZ rats.

It seems to me a stretch to conclude AICAR -> mitigates streptozotocin damage & activates AMPK -> therefore AMPK treats AD.  The AICAR was given after infusing the streptozotocin, but we don't know how quickly it had to be given.

 

 AICAR is best know for its metabolite, ZMP, which activates AMPK by substituting for AMP in AMP/ATP ratio, thus activating AMPK without inhibiting ATP production. This activates AMPK in most brain cells, but not in neurons. In neurons, the γ-subunit doesn't control AMPK. In neurons AMPK is activated by Ca2+ which is sensed by the the α-subunit. (Like most authors, we'll ignore the fact that there are lots of molecules that affect AMPK activation in a huge variety of poorly understood ways.)

 

"Ampk ups SIRT1"

This reference https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3494254/  says SIRT1 ups liver kinase B1 (LKB1) which ups AMPK activation porportional to dose (up to a point). Cause and effect seem to have been reversed long ago, and the error repeated to this day.

 

But most likely it needs to be done in a pulsatile manner similar to an exercise intervention or intermittent fasting, whereas sustained activation or activation in an inappropriate form (metformin?) is detrimental.

Many AMPK activators work by by interfering with mitochondrial ATP production in not nice ways.

 

Most articles will say whatever activator they are talking about works by activating ampk. A bit less helpful than saying an atom bomb works by blowing things up.

 

Metformin seems to work in multiple ways, still poorly understood in spite of all the studies. In part it interferes with mitochondrial ATP production.

 

The injectable peptide AICAR doesn't interfere with mitochondria, but most people don't do peptide injections. Maybe a sublingual troche would work.

 

I tried find out how LEF's ampk activator, gynostemma pentaphyllum, aka jiaogulan, works.The abstract at https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22576281 claims to have elucidated how it works. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall.

 


Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2016 - 10:38 AM.

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#12 Oakman

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 01:35 PM

RWhigham, how it works, full text of article >
 

Heat-processed Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract improves obesity in ob/ob mice by activating AMP-activated protein kinase

http://anothersample...c720fc566379b8d

 

Others > Antiobesity effect of gynostemma pentaphyllum (actiponin): A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial
http://onlinelibrary.../oby.20539/full

 

"Total extracts or saponins from this plant have been shown to exert a wide range of beneficial effects such as reducing cholesterol and blood glucose levels, strengthening immunity, and inhibiting cancer growth ([13-16]). These activities likely overlap with diverse downstream effects on AMPK activation ([9]). In vitro 

studies revealed that damulin A and B, two dammarane-type saponins purified from the leaves of G. pentaphyllum, are able to increase the phosphorylation of AMPK and acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC) through which β-oxidation can be stimulated ([17])."

 

The Effect of Gynostemma pentaphyllum Extract on Mouse Dermal Fibroblasts 

https://www.hindawi....rn/2014/202876/

 

Slow Aging with AMPK
http://www.antiaging...om/ampkslowsagi

Edited by Oakman, 25 December 2016 - 01:50 PM.


#13 RWhigham

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:01 PM

Oakman, Thanks, but this link is not working.

Heat-processed Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract improves obesity in ob/ob mice by activating AMP-activated protein kinase

http://anothersample...c720fc566379b8d


Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2016 - 05:02 PM.

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#14 Oakman

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:17 PM

Oakman, Thanks, but this link is not working.

Heat-processed Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract improves obesity in ob/ob mice by activating AMP-activated protein kinase

http://anothersample...c720fc566379b8d

 

If I click the link in your reply above, I get a page saying "I'm not a robot", and I check the box. Then click "download" and the PDF comes up. Not sure why it doesn't work for you. This forum doesn't let me post a screen grab, sorry.


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#15 RWhigham

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 06:21 PM

It appears that the damulin a & b molecules in gynostemma pentaphyllum are direct activators of ampk kinase which is fantastic. Indirect activators which work by inhibiting mitochondrial ATP production are terrible, and it's a long list.

 

https://www.naturalp...tch-part-2.aspx

 

"Recent research by NASA and others showed the existence of a second pathway that achieved AMPK activation -- namely resistance exercise. Work by the Lee Laboratories at the University of Michigan and other groups has demonstrated that this involves the up-regulation of genes which code for a family of at least three stress-inducible proteins called sestrins."

 

" Recently, a number of traditional xeno-hormetic herbs have been screened for sestrin/AMPK activity. During ethno-botanical screening in South Korea, experts identified the herb Gymnestemma pentaphyllum as a candidate for research."

 

"They soon established that extracts of this herb did indeed activate AMPK, presumably via sestrin up-regulation. As a result of this pioneering work, an extract of Gymnestemma pentaphyllum standardized to its actives, saponins known as damulins (12), is now available as ActivAMP."

 

" The two saponins, Damulin A and B, were potent AMPK activators, considerably more so than AICAR, a molecule that also activates AMPK and is thought to have won several Tours de France before it was banned in 2011".


Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2016 - 06:22 PM.


#16 RWhigham

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 06:44 PM

 

Posted Today, 10:17 AM

RWhigham, on 25 Dec 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:snapback.png

Oakman, Thanks, but this link is not working.

Heat-processed Gynostemma pentaphyllum extract improves obesity in ob/ob mice by activating AMP-activated protein kinase

http://anothersample...c720fc566379b8d

 

If I click the link in your reply above, I get a page saying "I'm not a robot", and I check the box. Then click "download" and the PDF comes up. Not sure why it doesn't work for you. This forum doesn't let me post a screen grab, sorry.

 

Thought it was my pop-up blocker, but it still doesn't work. However, your other links helped me find the answer. Thanks


Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2016 - 06:49 PM.

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#17 brosci

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:35 PM

This looks like an interesting alternative, with Li added to salt:

 

http://www.jdmoyer.c...brain-function/

 

It would be nice if there was a little electrolyte mix I could fortify back into my water to add minerals back in like magnesium and lithium.



#18 brosci

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:28 AM

What are your thoughts on the Orotic Acid in Li Orotate?

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Orotic_acid

 

"Orotic acid can be mutagenic in mammalian somatic cells. It is also mutagenic for bacteria and yeast."  It was mentioned to potentially raise ammonia levels, have an acidifying effect, and deplete alpha-ketoglutarate (where I've read that higher levels of alpha-ketoglutarate promote longevity.)


Edited by brosci, 22 April 2017 - 12:30 AM.

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#19 normalizing

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 04:58 AM

i saw concern over this too but only someone who understands from chemistry can interpret properly. maybe at the end carbonate version IS safer hence why it has been as prescription for decades and this new orotate version is without prescription sold everywhere without control??



#20 gamesguru

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:57 AM

yeah my niqquhs, according to the books about a 5% solution in agar medium of orotic acid is needed[1] to achieve significant chromosome damage.  i don't think a large jelly sack such as yourself ingesting a tiny speck of dust purchased on amazon should have any legitimate concern of chromosome damage.  but i'd like to err further still on the side of caution and insist that 2mg/L of drinking water is in no way a micro dose.  that's a lot lol, i wouldn't discount the utility of the 300mcg/L water until we have multiple multiple studies pour in


Edited by gamesguru, 22 April 2017 - 09:57 AM.


#21 brosci

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:18 PM

I found this electrolyte mix that does include lithium:

https://tracemineral...-mineral-drops/

 

It's listed at 1.5mg Li/serving (40 drops), where 8 drops would hit that 300mcg target.  Although, I wonder if the LEF Memory Product would be superior for better bioavailability (chelated form and no competing minerals) and the Colostrinin (which has immune boosting functions and other benefits.)  I would be curious how much better a Li chelate is able to raise levels vs what you might find in water along with other minerals.

 

Looking at the CoA, this product contains almost as much arsenic as it does lithium (orotic acid vs arsenic?):

https://tracemineral...nalysis_TMD.pdf

 

This article mentions a ratio of 3.83mg Li : 100mg Li-Orotate

https://en.wikipedia...Lithium_orotate

 

So, it seems like I would be looking at something like 7.5mg of orotic acid?  This isn't too reassuring -- "Nieper went on to claim that lithium did not dissolve from the orotate carrier until it passed through the blood–brain barrier" so, I would be delivering that mutagen directly into brain tissue.


Edited by brosci, 22 April 2017 - 03:27 PM.


#22 normalizing

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:38 PM

wouldnt lithium cancel the negative effects of orotic acid? one seems to be damaging ,but the other protective. why not just get other versions of lithium if this one is a concern, like Li carbonate etc.


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#23 normalizing

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:43 PM

one second note, ask your question here; http://www.bluelight...logy-Discussion these guys specialize in complex biochemistry and helped me resolve other similar issues to toxic binders in drugs



#24 brosci

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:47 PM

This particular one adds in colostrinin, which had some overlap with my other question here:

http://www.longecity...upplementation/

 

https://en.wikipedia...Health_benefits

 

https://en.wikipedia...aging_potential

 

https://selfhacked.c...prp-9-favorite/



#25 normalizing

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 04:00 AM

brosci did you even research orotic acid? from what i gather, its widely available in milk like human milk, so babies get this mutagen from birth? also its available in cow's milk which people consume heavily and even fruits and vegetables. so how can it really be that toxic? question is, how much is it in milk compared to the amount you will consume from lithium orotate?

 

but if that still worries, it seems uridine might help in some metabolic disorders associated with excess orotic acid


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#26 Razor444

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:29 AM

also its available in cow's milk which people consume heavily and even fruits and vegetables. so how can it really be that toxic? question is, how much is it in milk compared to the amount you will consume from lithium orotate?

 

80 mg/L in cow's milk. So comparable. It's also in whey protein.


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#27 normalizing

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 04:54 PM

i still couldnt find any studies associating orotic acid with human toxicity. it seems its toxic to some animals though, not sure the mechanism there. anyway im hopeful someone will help me out here to come to a conclusion if its at all a risky substance



#28 brosci

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:36 AM

Thinking more about microdose lithium supplementation, would it make sense to look at any sort of mineral test before or after supplementation to gauge Li needs or effectiveness, in case I might be low prior to supplementing or high afterwards?  (I was looking at the hair mineral test from doctor's data and the blood test from quicksilver scientific, both of which have a marker for lithium.)

 

As another potential benefit, I was reading that lithium might help with B12 uptake (I have quite a few genetic polymorphisms associated with low b12 uptake / conversion into active forms.  While supplementing 1mg of b12/d, my last serum B12 test was flagged as "HIGH" @ ~1300 pg/mL, which is generally well regulated even with high supplement doses.)  I was also reading that it might help with immune function.  In another article it was also possibly associated with decreased risk of cardiovascular disease (at microdose levels rather than therapeutic doses.)  https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/5824181


Edited by brosci, 16 May 2017 - 01:41 AM.

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#29 normalizing

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:15 AM

im curious how microdoses would help tho, since i take MEGADOSES with no effect. if a person take huge doses and doesnt feel anything, how does microdose do anything at all?



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#30 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:54 PM

I tried my first dose of Memory Protect yesterday. Broke up the capsule and took it gradually throughout the day. Woke up today feeling worse than usual. Did not take more MP, did take Proline rich polypeptides with my morning herbs and supps. Then Bulletproof Coffee. Now feeling MUCH worse. Excessive thirst and dizziness. I wonder if the PRPs did something, I did fine with them before trying MP.







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