22 replies to this topic

[Balkan60]

Hi, was born in 1960, and suffer from Low Energy, Mental Fog,Daydreaming & Procrastination.

 

Was excellent student and was destined for a successful career.

But it all fell apart at Uni when I was on my own and had to self motivate. 

 

I have been trying for years to find out the cause of my relative failure 

and came to the realization that I have ADD-PI.

 

Was diagnosed by a State Psychiatrist (the only expert in adult ADD)

but I don't respond to the available medicines in my country. (Greece ) That is Concerta/Ritalin.

 

I took up to 40 mg Ritalin and separately up to 72 mg Concerta with no results.

They even failed to curb my appetite!

He gave up on me then and I had to start on my own to search for a solution.

As you are a  BSc Computing Graduate working as a School Lecturer at 54 years old

he said you didn't do too badly!

 

Yet I am motivated to do something to fulfill my potential and I am studying for a MSc in Psychology.

Want to specialize in Cognitive Psy and deal with brain training and plasticity.

I am doing great but the Dissertation is looming and its chaotic nature is daunting. 

 

In the past 5 odd years I have tried everything under the sun apart from Adderall/Dexedrine

which are unavailable in the country. Vyvanse has been rolling out in a few European countries

but without a try to see if it works I cannot undertake the cost of a journey to the UK to see a specialist. 

 

Here in Greece you can obtain most non controlled meds without an RX so I have been experimenting.

 

Have tried coffee and caffeine pills up to 300 mg no results.

 

Vitamins theanine, Omega 3, macuna... have tried everything without success.

 

Numerous herbs like macuna,bacoba, ginseng, turmeric ...no result.

 

Dopamine agonists like Deprenyl, Moclobemide  anti depressants like Bupropion, SSRIs.

Reboxetine caused urinary retention and stopped after one week, no results by then.

 

I tried Agomelatine, Prolintane, Amfonelic acid(fake?) no results.

 

Nootropics like Piracetam, Aniracetam Noopept.

 

RC chemicals like ethylphenidate but not (F-2, Fma and the like as I was scared of sideffects)

 

Havent tried tricyclics as the more effective like desipramine and imipramine are not available.

 

Nothing has worked for focus but I have made some progress on

 

a) Low Energy Fatigue which has been eliminated by Jioagulan and Shilajit supplementation

b) Sleepiness which has been countered by Modafnil (prescribed copay) 

 

I am desperate for a study aid, and as I cannot obtain stimulants I am looking for group buys

 

a)  Viloxazine (adhd, depression, narcolepsy)

b)  Oroxylin-A  (5,7 Dihydroxy-6-meth....)

 

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

 

George

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

George

[Balkan60]

Forgot about Strattera. 

Sometime ago I had tried an Indian Generic at 10 mg and 20 mg

no results and I didn't persist.

I know this is too low but the side effect profile  lethargy sleepiness

and low satisfaction from users put me off.

Note that the cut off point (about a month?) there was no effect and no side effects either.

 

[RYAN474]

Perhaps there is something wrong medically? Hormones, infections, etc?

 

I would suggest scheduling a virtual skype consultation with a functional medicine practitioner in the USA. Consider a functional neurologist, but any highly rated, credentialed functional medicine practitioner will be able to help you.

 

Also, I would suggest reading "Why isn't my brain working" by Datis K. In that book, there are many functional medicine practitioners that are listed--you can look them up. I.e. Dr Noseworthy in Florida.  Next time Datis K offers his course "Banish Brain Fog" online, you may also want to purchase and attend that. 

 

Further, you could read "fatigued to fantastic" by Jacob Tietelbaum. The symptoms of ADD-PI (which I have), definitely overlap with chronic fatigue for many people. 

[Balkan60]

ryan474

    nothing is wrong medically. I have done all sort of tests.

As for your suggestion I will politelly decline. I think that functional medicine is on par with homeopathy

in terms of validity. I am looking for non controlled med suggestions and or supplements.

Anyway my Strattera trial progresses I am into the 2nd week and started taking two 25mg per 24hours.

Up to now no result and minor sideffects.

[RYAN474]

- Cat's Claw (saventaro or samento). Aside from adderall and the drugs you've mentioned you've already tried, cat's claw is the most powerful supplement for brain fog relief and increased motivation in my experience. Started very small doses (1/20th capsule in morning). 

 

Not supplements, but here are some other things that were high-impact for me to reduce brain fog, procrastination, daydreaming, and low energy: 

 

- Reduce carbohydrate intake and switch to a fat-adapted / high fat diet. I am much foggier if I go above 75g of carbs (even in things like sweet potatoes or white rice or root vegetables). 

- Look into SIBO, treat if present. My fog significantly reduced when treated SIBO. 

- Chronobiology- waking up and getting bright light at 6:45am is crucial for me to prevent mental fog, ensure I am motivated and productive and not "spaced out" throughout the day. Waking 7:15 is too late, 30% less productive. I still need to ensure I get 7+ hrs sleep, but get up by 6:45. Earlier makes me even more clear and energetic/productive. 

      - Also, consider late-partial sleep deprivation or TSD (total sleep deprivation) followed by sleep phase advance, and light therapy. Playing around with circadian rhythms in this way can be extremely powerful for depression, mental clarity, etc. 

- Stealth infections - checked for any of those? i.e. CPN

- Cold therapy (freezing cold shower for 60-120 seconds or moderately cold for 5 minutes, etc). This seems to increase adrenaline for many hours and thus motivation, clarity, etc. 

- HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). Increases growth hormone and many other things. Definitely improved my mental clarity and motivation significantly. 

 

Fwiw, many medical tests are not very good at identifying if you are "sub optimal" in things like thyroid hormones, testosterone, etc. For example, someone might have a free testosterone in the "normal" range and thus have "nothing wrong", but it might be half of the level of what would be considered optimal. 

 

I did get some small benefit from straterra for about 1 year but then all it did was make me tired. Then saw an ADHD specialist psychiatrist and he said that is very common, so stopped taking that and started cycling through to trial all of the different stimulants until we settled on adderall for the past 10 years. Definitely the most effective. 

 

 

Edited by ryan474, 21 December 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[Petes]

I also have the same issue but a lot younger than you. Am still on a journey as it seems like my psych has given up on me. I'm still waiting for piracetam as I haven't tried that yet. adhdpi comes with memory impairments and bacopa could relieve that part, should you have given it more time? A week of reboxetine is too short as well but I feel you cause I tried reboxetine as well and it was too much to bare that I stopped in 4 days. 

 

Others to note of is if you could get your hands on metadoxine, there may be a chance of it helping you more than other drugs. It's tailored more for adhdpi but the ER is still on trial. You can only get the IR, you have to redose due to it's short half life. 

 

I got a feeling that the symptoms of ADHDpi is akin to people intoxicated from alcohol or alcohol problems and metadoxine are treating both disorders. I always described my ADD as really spacey and feeling like I'm in a coma, lethargy, tired.

Edited by Petes, 27 December 2016 - 03:37 AM.

[Petes]

Also if you're feeling tired from Strattera, you may want to try taking it at night instead. 

 

I tried that with reboxetine but it only helped a tad. 

 

I am after something that will keep me stimulated (stimulants don't work ironically) as I'm a spacey inattentive person

[Balkan60]

ryan474

      I havent tried Adderall or Dexamphetamine as they are not available here in Greece.

      I will have to travel to the UK to have them prescribed to see if they work on me. And it costs a lot.

      - Cats claw havent tried I will look into it.

      - Carbo intake, I have done a lot of Low carb dieting and do at least one day per week  total fast.

         it has helped my weight, sense of well being but nothing cognitive.

       - Cold Showers. It is impossible for me in the winter, but from late spring I do in the morning

         and it gives be a boost of energy but again nothing on focus. 

       -Chronobiology. Once I didnt sleep at all as I was locked out of my home but had access to the 

         garage where a lot of books lay cluttered due to my procrastination. I started tidying them up

         and in fact I was amazed at my productivity and sense of energy I had. It was dopamine of course.

         I plan to experiment with waking up earlier and walking to work (40min fast poace one way)

        - I really have tried high intensity training with no immediate benefits and frankly cat do it on a regular basis.

          I will have to settle for brisk walking.

 

         - Have done lots of medical tests no sign finds. Done some testoterone gel but little physical effects and no cognitive.

 

Petes  

 

          I tried bacoba for months with no results.

          I have even tried metadoxine taking repeated small doses no result also!

 

Strattera  exp. ends here!

 

           After  one week at 25 mg and two at 2x 25 mg (morning evening) I stopped due to sideffects.

           Difficulty in passing urine and constant pain tenderness in the groin.

           As for benefits NONE at all.

 

I will post some new experiments with meds here soon.

 

I will consider also neurofeedback.

 

 

[Petes]

This may be the most absurd advice but try getting a hangover. Some people report how they feel better, stimulated during the hangover phase. 

 

https://www.reddit.c...hat_have_adhdi/

 

http://www.longecity...angovers/page-1

[.Moose.]

 

As for your suggestion I will politelly decline. I think that functional medicine is on par with homeopathy

 

 

Have you actually looked into functional medicine? It sounds like it's a similar approach with similar supplement suggestions to what you have already tried, and I don't find that it's anything like homeopathy at all (I've done both). 

 

D-Ribose was really good for relaxation, focus and sleep for my Pi but wore off. Mindfulness/meditation also hugely helps me in the same respect. Also I only recently became a lot more regimented in my studying and his helped me hugely with higher education. This involves being very anal in organising what I have to do, structuring my time, and also using good writing software (scirvener is good!). It allows me to cut my days down from 6 hours of aimless procrastination to 2 hours good work.

 

Re your night of no sleep, there are other Pi's around here that have experienced benefits from sleep deprivation, and I personally get a lot of clarity from a heavy hangover, as Petes suggests.

 

gl

[gamesguru]

bacopa can restore certain dopamine dysfunctions to baseline.  but on its own isnt terribly effetive for motivation or attention.  can even make them worse, with choline related mood disturbances and whatnot

 

for best results, combine with dopamine modulators.  ginkgo, red or mixed ginseng, copious amounts of japanese tea and of course abstinence from recreational substances

 

as for the choline and the fact that these herbs are all potent AChE inhibitors and uptake modulators.. i actually avoid eggs, shrimp, etc.. barely get 300mg in a day.  with all that synergy, a tiny dose keeps the wheel rolling

Edited by gamesguru, 03 January 2017 - 03:01 AM.

[Balkan60]

Update.

 

My exams have gone well, havent got the results yet but I am pretty confident.

I was to have started Dissertation but no real work yet.

Have tried cats claw for more than one month with  no results.

 

 

BTW I have a number of leftovers (non controlled meds) that I want to donate to members of the forum.

How do I go about it?

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Have you considered a combo of REBOXETINE (it doesn't have the same anxiogenic or depressive side-effects of Atomoxetine, but it DOES have sedation as a side-effect...) and Modafinil?

I myself find that Modafinil helps with the coma-feeling and with reaction-time, but doesn't do much for attention and motivation - I've felt that NRI's like ATX helps tremendously, when they're NOT sedating you...!

 

As such, the combination of Reboxetine or Atomoxetine, with Modafinil, should be capable of helping with ADHD-PI/ADD/SCT/CDD. (I wonder if our disease has the record when it comes to naming-conventions...?)

 

 

Dr. Russell Barkley who's the leading expert on ADHD-PI, or what he calls CDD, believes that both drugs can be helpful - so there's definitely precedent.

 

If Modafinil can't be obtained in your home-country of Greece, then consider the alternatives of Armodafinil, Adrafinil and possibly Pitolisant. (the last one is a histamine H3-antagonist - a new medication for the treatment of narcolepsy.)

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 17 February 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[Balkan60]

Stinkorninjor

 

Ι  take regularly prescription Modafinil. (no effect on focus or motivation) but helps with sleepiness and a bit with fatigue.

 

I have taken Reboxetine 4mg but urinal retention was unbearable. I stopped after one week and no results were present.

As for Atomoxetine pls read my previous post.

 

I have taken Adrafinil with no results before.

 

I too thought that Moda + Atomo/Rebo would be a great combo for Inattention.

 

I had the opportunity to hear Prof Barkley in the flesh in an Athens ADHD Conf. Great scientist, but his only suggestion

at non responders like me is to try Amphetamine proper.

 

Pitolisant is something that I monitor it isnt available here yet.

 

​Unfortunately Elvanse/Vyvanse isnt available in the country.

 

I havent been able to even sample Amphetamine to see if it is effective for me.

 

What country are you based in? What ADHD are available there?

 

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Stinkorninjor

 

Ι  take regularly prescription Modafinil. (no effect on focus or motivation) but helps with sleepiness and a bit with fatigue.

 

I have taken Reboxetine 4mg but urinal retention was unbearable. I stopped after one week and no results were present.

1. As for Atomoxetine pls read my previous post.

 

I have taken Adrafinil with no results before.

 

2. I too thought that Moda + Atomo/Rebo would be a great combo for Inattention.

 

3a. I had the opportunity to hear Prof Barkley in the flesh in an Athens ADHD Conf. Great scientist, but his only suggestion

at non responders like me is to try Amphetamine proper.

 

Pitolisant is something that I monitor it isnt available here yet.

 

​3b. Unfortunately Elvanse/Vyvanse isnt available in the country.

 

I havent been able to even sample Amphetamine to see if it is effective for me.

 

4. What country are you based in? What ADHD are available there?

 

1. You should give Atomoxetine a try again, since you didn't have any ill effects during titration. Also consider that almost everyone who tries it is just regular hyperactive ADHD - they're the wrong patient-subset for the drug - of COURSE they'll have bad effects...! If you don't have issues with NE, but with DA, then yes, it's going to be a disaster. (there's also the Kappa-agonism giving the drug a bad rep, which I suppose, is actually a legit reason) Most people also need as high of a dose as 80 mg, and some need even a 100 mg...! Spread throughout the day in two different dosings - so you've only scratched the surface of ATX.

 

2.  Do you still think the combo could be good? Have you tried it, but not had any effect?

 

3. I think the reason why he mentions Amphetamine proper is because Amphetamine proper contains LEVOamphetamine, which is the enantiomer which is more selective for NE than DextroAmphetamine - I've heard this mentioned by knowledgable SCT-ers on other sites - how Adderall actually helps, but Vyvanse is useless.

 

If the latest data is correct, which it is looking like, since it fits with the previous hypothesises regarding the neuroanatomy of the disease - then NE is the central neurotransmitter imbalanced in ADHD-PI/ADD/SCT/CDD and hence, DextroAmphetamine will be... USELESS! DexAmp is a highly, highly DA-selective medication, which is why Vyvanse and such is so popular with regular ADHD-ers - it gives them precisely what they need... DOPAMINE!

 

I've seen it claimed, but been unable to confirm it, that DextroLevoAmphetamine is actually MORE selective and potent towards NE than DextroLevoMethylphenidate, so that should explain why SCT-ers like Adderall - it actually helps more.

 

4. I'd rather not say.

 

But these are the compounds available in my location, for the treatment of ADHD:

 

 

Elvanse/Vyvanse (lisdexamphetamine)

Dexamphetamine

Intuniv (guanfacine)

Strattera (atomoxetine)

Methylphenidate (LevoDextro-racemic) (concerta, ritalin, medikinet, et c)

 

 

The following are also available, but difficult to get prescribed for ADHD:

 

Modafinil (almost exclusively for narcolepsy - it took me YEARS to get a prescription)

Reboxetine
Clonidine

 

 

Pretty good, but the lack of Focalin for ADHD and Adderall for SCT are definitely a problem - Focalin = Dexmethylphenidate is safer than Dexamphetamine and supposedly has far less side-effects in hyperactives than regular Methylphenidate, and Adderall has better effects on SCT than either LD-MPH and D-AMP.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 17 February 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[Balkan60]

Atomoxetine  25mg/1st week

                      25 + 25/2nd 3rd     resulted in pain in the groin. It was frightening I stopped after 3x weeks. No effects just sideffects.

 

Have tried Guanfancine of questionable source with no results. (insnt sold here)

 

Have tried Clonidine in the evening (helps with sleep) but no results. (1 or 2 weeks)

 

Pity theres a large selection in your country unlike mine.

On the other hand here in Greece you can buy virtually any non controlled med without a prescription so I have tried a lot. No results.

 

Will try to rent an altitude tent. It raises dopamine.

Once I stayed awake all night and was very productive in the early hours. Obviously it was dopamine since it surges with all nighters.

 

 

 

[Balkan60]

In the last month I take Pindolol + Duloxetine. (I am slightly on high blood pressure)

The combo raises DA & NE in the prefrontal cortex. No results yet, but no sideffects either)

[Marc Stasko]

Hello,
I have recently joined this site and I am not sure if you are still monitoring this thread but I feel the need to make a suggestion.
I was born in 1967 and had the same symptoms as you. Brain fog, and fatigue were with me most of my life. Later in life I suffered from more mental fatigue but I have reversed all of these symptoms.
Since you are unresponsive to the available treatments, I suggest, if practiced in your county, a DNA analysis performed by your medical provider to specifically test for known neurological tendencies and drug interactions. This is done here in the USA with great results to assist doctors in finding the best treatment for otherwise unresponsive ailments to traditional methods. Your specific DNA profile could be the reason why you are not responding the typical medications and may point to the need for a completely different approach. Various DNA test kits are available online but I can not vouch for how thorough they may be.
I hope you find this helpful.

[Jiminy Glick]

Take 350-400 mg of Rhodiola Rosea Salidroside powder and 500 mg L-Theanine powder mixed together in a drink. Works great and is very good for you.

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 29 May 2017 - 08:26 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Take 350-400 mg of Rhodiola Rosea Salidroside powder and 500 mg L-Theanine powder mixed together in a drink. Works great and is very good for you.

 

SO you say... but I have my doubts.

The more recent data confirms the hypothesis that ADD/SCT/CDD is a norepinephrinergic disorder, connected to the SPL - Superior Parietal Lobe.

 

What, if any, evidence is there that Rhodiola Rosea and L-Theanine effects this specific part of the brain, or NE in any way?

[Jiminy Glick]

 

Take 350-400 mg of Rhodiola Rosea Salidroside powder and 500 mg L-Theanine powder mixed together in a drink. Works great and is very good for you.

 

SO you say... but I have my doubts.

The more recent data confirms the hypothesis that ADD/SCT/CDD is a norepinephrinergic disorder, connected to the SPL - Superior Parietal Lobe.

 

What, if any, evidence is there that Rhodiola Rosea and L-Theanine effects this specific part of the brain, or NE in any way?

 

 

Yeah I don't know about any of that. I just noticed you didn't mention Rhodiola, though you did mention L-Theanine you didn't mention any mixtures. A lot of these nutrients compliment each other really well. So you might not get an outstanding effect from L-Theanine but if you mix it with Rhodiola you will. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

Take 350-400 mg of Rhodiola Rosea Salidroside powder and 500 mg L-Theanine powder mixed together in a drink. Works great and is very good for you.

 

SO you say... but I have my doubts.

The more recent data confirms the hypothesis that ADD/SCT/CDD is a norepinephrinergic disorder, connected to the SPL - Superior Parietal Lobe.

 

What, if any, evidence is there that Rhodiola Rosea and L-Theanine effects this specific part of the brain, or NE in any way?

 

 

Yeah I don't know about any of that. I just noticed you didn't mention Rhodiola, though you did mention L-Theanine you didn't mention any mixtures. A lot of these nutrients compliment each other really well. So you might not get an outstanding effect from L-Theanine but if you mix it with Rhodiola you will. 

 

 

I didn't say anything about L-Theanine or Rhodiola Rosea though, nor did the OP... : | Are you SURE you're replying to the right topic? Mistakes can easily happen.

 

 

I'm sure it's a fine combo btw, but I don't think it has much relevance for the specific issues the OP is having.

[Jiminy Glick]

 

 

 

Take 350-400 mg of Rhodiola Rosea Salidroside powder and 500 mg L-Theanine powder mixed together in a drink. Works great and is very good for you.

 

SO you say... but I have my doubts.

The more recent data confirms the hypothesis that ADD/SCT/CDD is a norepinephrinergic disorder, connected to the SPL - Superior Parietal Lobe.

 

What, if any, evidence is there that Rhodiola Rosea and L-Theanine effects this specific part of the brain, or NE in any way?

 

 

Yeah I don't know about any of that. I just noticed you didn't mention Rhodiola, though you did mention L-Theanine you didn't mention any mixtures. A lot of these nutrients compliment each other really well. So you might not get an outstanding effect from L-Theanine but if you mix it with Rhodiola you will. 

 

 

I didn't say anything about L-Theanine or Rhodiola Rosea though, nor did the OP... : | Are you SURE you're replying to the right topic? Mistakes can easily happen.

 

 

I'm sure it's a fine combo btw, but I don't think it has much relevance for the specific issues the OP is having.

 

 

The OP did mention L-Theanine, I thought you were the OP though when I responded to you. But yeah I don't know his issue seems very specific.