139 replies to this topic

[cnsbroken]

Ask your psychiatrists to follow this AD algorithm. It's pretty spot on.

 

Triple reuptake inhibition + 5ht2a/c antagonism.  Lots of dopamine transmission happening with it.

It has a very high chance of destroying blank mind, which is a deep deep depression.

 

http://psychotropica...al-ad-algorithm

 

Thanks man! This thing is gold if only for it's boldness and distinctive approach. I appreciate this a lot, thanks dude! I will def ask about that treatment and report back. Although seeing time needed for all this I guess it won't be very soon when the treatment would end.

 

Anyway my core symptom is tension/pressure(tightening muscle?) physically felt in my had as any kind of stress start to build up in my body. It can be triggered by literally any stimulus/stressor, inner as well external, since then it creates self driven circle, so to speak. Can you believe this shit? From stopping SRI abruptly..

For the record I never had migraines or headaches, tomorrow I will have MRI results, although it's never that easy..I mean I do not predict it to detect anything.

Edited by cnsbroken, 23 February 2017 - 04:20 PM.

[sentics]

i think the 5-ht1a receptor is also worth looking into, especially when taking an SSRI. you'll want 5-ht1a Antagonism for keeping your libido. check out this thread on natural 5-ht1a agonists (my favorite, not on this list, would be Relora/Berberine)

 

http://www.longecity...itive-function/

 

if you prefer regular pills, check out this list of "clinically relevant 5-ht1a receptor partial agonists

 

http://psychopharmac...ht1a-receptors/

 

 

_______________________

 

 

[cnsbroken]

Thanks mate, I will explore those things. Yes, you are right, sri's killing sex drive is what keeps many from taking them, although some are worse than others at that. For example Paroxetine(Paxil) while efficacious in social anxiety disorders, also exterminate libido. How ironic.

[Lia-chan]

Sometimes, when I see people like you, I question myself if you have so severe problems, why do you even care for a sex? Are you serious? How about no?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Sometimes, when I see people like you, I question myself if you have so severe problems, why do you even care for a sex? Are you serious? How about no?

 

What do you mean?

 

Depersonalisation is a severe and serious disease - we've got several threads about it. It's also quite difficult to treat.

 

I would agree that one should not put ones sex-life in front of ones health in general, but it's not unreasonable to want people to maintain a healthy relationship (if one is not in a serious, long-term relationship however, then f*** it - mental health is more important), which may be difficult if one suffer severe sexual side-effects.

 

It should, however, be noted that one can genetically test for the likeliness of how affected by sexual side-effects from serotonin reuptake-inhibiting compounds these days - I did, and the results mirror reality fairly well - intermediate effect.

 

 

I'm a bit concerned about you though Lia-Chan... your posts tonight have been rather odd - not at all as what you are usually like.

 

How are you doing? Have things gone down-hill lately?

 

You know, seeing the way you speak, I'm almost a bit worried you're having a mixed episode or something here... mild psychotic break. This really is rather uncharacteristic of you. You usually seem quite kind and helpful.

[Valor5]

Well I want to jump in here. First history, second experience, third theory/opinion. Sorry this may be very long.

HISTORY: I have been suffering with this SHIT for twenty years! It started when I was about twenty years old. It started one night when I finished masturbating and I felt guilty, ashamed, scared, alone as usual and I began to pray. I prayed because I wanted that special, I call it spiritual feeling, of acceptance, love ECT. I prayed in a way that I feel I literally hurt myself in the way I did it. I have never since prayed like that nor have I beat myself up anymore for my sin's even though masturbating always makes me feel bad in the end. Now I understand it's the enervation and probably a nasty chemical cocktail that happens after orgasms because of depleted dopamine and probably a rise in prolactin and norepinephrine ECT. It is the nastiest feeling. Kind of like the come-down from methylphenidate. Anyway I was a masturbation addict for years. I think I started around nine or ten and did it every dam day. I caused me to get worse and worse grades in school. It was down hill all the way until the day my mind went BLANK like others state, no inner monologue, aimlessness, detachment, like the instructions you typically get in the morning and throughout the day no longer there. It's been so dam long.

EXPERIENCE: I tried methylphenidate and it seemed to work but for a very short time and only once very well. I think I took it once with effexor and felt powerful empathy, drive and awareness but that dissipated in short order like a mist. The comedown from it is horrendous, not worth it. One way I found out to combat that nasty feeling was taking guanfacine. But I don't know that I would recommend this experience to anyone.

Another experience was taking Vyvanse. This drug seemed to make me...I'll save my energy and just say I don't think by itself it's a long term solution but I never tried it with memantine which may work good but that is theory on my part. I didn't try it long either. Adderall was worse.

One interesting experiment was I was looking for things that cause hypomania. Escitalopram and donepezil can do this. I think I tried it once or twice. This I would recommend. Donepezil actually acts on dopamine. So this was better than escitalopram alone. Lately I've been trying to get this again to give it a month or two trial but have had no luck with that. I stupidly accepted cymbalta which after reading about it, very reluctant to take. But what jaiho is saying about broad spectrum treatment I think is spot on.

I've tried HRT. I think this is good and I recommend. Only downside is if your a sex addict. This raises libido. It can have infertility as a side effect but you can take HCG to combat that if that is important. If you don't use HCG testicles shrink. But that can be reversible even if you use it like six months without HCG. Testosterone raises blood cell count so you have more oxygen. Testosterone can be stimulating so I think it's a good option if I have money again I plan to be on it with the above mentioned combo as a trial. In general anything that is like nootrophins is good, bdnf, gdnf, NGF, stem cells ECT. This is however very advanced.

Stuff that I usually use as a basic stack is SAM-e, methy-folate, methyl-b12, magnesium glycinate, (did use all this with mag. Threonate and it did improve memory but since it's so much stuff I could not really narrow down what worked) pregnenolone, lion's mane, cordyceps, b-complex from Jarrow,...

One thing that really helped as a building block was abstaining from orgasm for five months. It's not a complete cure but helpful. For me orgasm is the enemy. I tend to love and get along with people and women better without it anyway so FUCK YOU ORGASM!!! And it destroys me for a long dam time. I can feel it inside. I have calculated it takes me AT LEAST a month after I masturbate to feel like I can look people in the eyes and have a semblance of self control. I was and am actually contemplating getting castrated but...Anyway...

Lately I've been taking nothing and have been doing nothing but staying in my room. I am almost forty years old and because of this still live with my parents. It sucks to say the least and to be dependent on outside help and substances really sucks. I have a friend with better parents than mine and some shit happened to him, he has been getting disability for the last twenty years while I've been working my ass off trying to beat this. This shit is awful.

Anyhow reading this is interesting that I am not alone. I thought this was a stroke or could be a mini stroke I don't know or it could be like Parkinson's the dying of dopamine cells perhaps in the Striatum anyway...

THEORY/opinion: I think probiotics could help maybe stuff like betaine hydrochloride all that is experimental. Avoiding gluten, soy so don't develop hypothyroidism, broad spectrum like jaiho says I think is a good idea also staying away from mind debilitating things...Moa things could be helpful...I want to see Dr. Amen. I may be able to see a neurologist here as a charity case. I think getting a spectrum scan MRI are excellent it's only getting access to these things. We have to tackle this problem systematically without giving up then we will prevail.

[logicmuffin]

Hi

too much NMDA activity;
try Memantine 5 mg/day

Bye

I was not aware of this association. Any studies support this?

[Quaker32]

Not too sure about that - I have heard if anything, NMDA antagonists CAUSING dp/dr. 

 

Valor5 - thanks for posting. Can you explain more about the praying stuff you did, which really went against you and felt really bad? I think this could be a very important factor in your dpdr blank mind bullshit thing. 

[Valor5]

Not too sure about that - I have heard if anything, NMDA antagonists CAUSING dp/dr.

Valor5 - thanks for posting. Can you explain more about the praying stuff you did, which really went against you and felt really bad? I think this could be a very important factor in your dpdr blank mind bullshit thing.

Well whenever I "sinned," masturbated for years I would always feel extremely nasty afterwards, this has to do a lot I imagine with the idea of a conscious but even more so because many people I've found out can and do suffer from the consequences of orgasm. Anyway that particular night I feel now I was praying way too intensely sometimes in religions the outward act or the stirring of oneself is emphasized more than of being a genuine person this can be a deep topic anyhow in the Bible it talks of Jesus praying in a way that the Bible days drops of blood were I guess perspiring from his forehead...I have to go now but hopefully comment more later, but I think you get the point.

[Valor5]

Quaker32: continuing...after ten years of abuse of myself with all the bad feelings and guilt and disease and stress I caused myself and my environment was heaping on me my mind broke and it was not just the blank mind I felt an emotional amnesia like I did not now my mother, friends etc. like I used to my speech was ruined for like seven years, I really failed bad at college I could not read to understand what I was reading and felt weird writing it was a complete death of my former self. Horrendous just to think of those seven initial years.

I am not against praying or religion but now I understand that religion has a base of morality (ethics) and intellect (reason,memory,judgement, perception) more so than feelings which are fickle and no contract or standard, code ect is based on feelings.

Edited by Valor5, 11 March 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[Quaker32]

what help or treatment have you tried?

[Blanker]

Valor what specific medications have you tried?

[Valor5]

HRT, methylated products, tDCS, Ritalin, focalin, guanfacine, phenelzine, tranylcypromine, ropinirol, klonopin, paroxetine,...problem is I never tried these for very long. HRT and methylated products have really been my main stay. But I have short experience with all kinds of stuff,...I am trying to get organized. Wanting to try again escitalopram with donepezil, this combo I think is pretty good. Donepezil boosts dopamine. Or, clomipramine by itself or sertraline with nortriptyline, or sertraline/donepezil or maybe amitriptyline/donepezil if all that does not work vyvanse/memantine...but donepezil I think is a rock star...but I have to set up my experiments and rehab protocol... Boosting neurotrophins the brains fertilizer is key. If that can't be done there is no hope that's why stimulants are not solutions.

[platypus]

Sounds like you've been harmed by religion. Feeling guilt or shame due to masturbation is unnecessary. 

[jaiho]

I dont think orgasm has anything to do with the problem. It's basically a severe reward deficiency.
You can try to cover it up by not having orgasms, which will increase your reward baseline, but 99% of people don't need to do this, they can have plenty of orgasms in a day and still enjoy life fully.

 

I've also tried the Nofap thing and definitely felt relief, but felt this was just a band aid solution.

 

Sertraline + Nortriptyline is very punchy for it. So is Clomipramine, but Sert + Nort does the same thing as Clomipramine, but with less side effects.

I'm surprised you didn't find progress with Tranylcypromine. Did you fully inhibit MAO, which requires at least 50-60mg for 6 weeks?

 

Tranylcypromine (Parnate) Is one of the most potent for treatment resistance, but you need to not be afraid of pumping up doses and being patient.

It can also be combined with Nortriptyline, which attenuates the MAOI diet requirements.

 

Parnate + Nortriptyline would be end game, and if that doesn't put you in remission, then you'd be looking at ECT on top of it, and then finally, DBS.

 

[sbenton]

Check gut intolerances and mold exposure. I literally had the exact same problem. I feel it's a mast cell release or mycotoxins your organs just can't keep up with. To diagnose Try and get air purifier for the room and if the house is even slightly moldy freakn move out. And don't eat any starches except sweet potatoes. Not forever but until you can figure out what's causing the sensitivity. Do a quick 10 minute HITT workout. Check selfhacked.com for lectin sensitivity. . I just stumbled upon this thread by accident. Also look into Megadosing probiotic= slight euphoria affect. Could be sleep apnea and your brain is starving for 02. Could be diabetes of the brain. May need to go ketogenic for a few days. Sometimes it's not how much you sleep; It's where you sleep.

[Quaker32]

Is this mostly to do with dopamine? Would the solution therefore be boostinf dopamine transmission?

 

In my case, which is that of an addict (sex addict), I would think that I would have to cut back on dopamine, but I suppose that might only be of importance to dopamine transmission in the reward pathway? After all, medications they use for addiction like naltrexone or amisulpride block that transmission? I am even thinking about getting hold of the new ibogaine synthetic analogues such as 18-MC, which indirectly reduce dopamine fluctuations in the reward pathway.

 

So in my case what do i do? many thanks if somebody is able to help me with this one (also SSRI medications make me feel like s***. They do something "funny" to my emotions as well. Ideally, I could avoid such a class of medications, but let's see). 

 

 

[Valor5]

An observation, this morning I woke up lethargic but ok. Yesterday seemed like an unusually productive day. Last week was chaos almost all week one thing I have noticed is that when I take coconut oil the MCT type I get the absolute nastiest brain fog horrendous almost like a coma with eyes open. I took that this morning on an empty stomach with my berberine pill I use for a skin problem. Immediately or within a few minutes brain fog, immobility, brain deadness came. I had a suspicion about this. Then something interesting happened I would drink some orange juice and it seemed like the fog would lift. I ended up taking my other pills after about 20 minutes,nearly forcing myself I was feeling so foggy, magnesium glycinate, b complex, tyrosine, (methylb12 and methylfolate taken with coconut oil, but made no difference) and sam-e, then it was like the fog was literally lifting. I noticed something like this a few weeks ago saying to myself this is uncharacteristic of me to not be foggy but I could not understand why then I said to myself if this happens again I'll be careful to take note ECT. Another thing I noticed was eating pasta with vegetables helps or carbs with vegetables as I thing my body may not tolerate too much beans or maybe even nuts but so to get my protein I will try something like grains with vegetables for a complete protein you can also do grains with milk but that may be bad if you have some milk allergy. And of course I do not masturbate or look at pornography anymore. Been clean now from this two months.

[Valor5]

Jaiho tranylcypromine is a cool drug however I literally had a hypertensive crisis from for which I still owe around 2k for er costs. It is a good one you have to be very careful. I think they gave like morphine to combat the pain my blood pressure was like are 200 so you could do major damage and the garbage they gave me did not work just masked the symptoms I couldn't sleep for days after and had a distinct pain between my shoulder neck area. This pain lasted at least like a week. You have to be very careful. Phenelzine got rid 100 percent of social anxiety but It felt like I was drunk when walking. I have to go...

Edited by Valor5, 13 March 2017 - 02:18 PM.

[Valor5]

Whatever path you chose in my opinion everyone should be passing certain benchmarks like willpower, memory, overall happiness/satisfaction, social anxiety,...There should be a doubling effect taking place year after year in usefulness...This is my standard.

Edited by Valor5, 13 March 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Blanker]

Ok thanks for the feedback,

I am going into my psyche today to try get a prescription of nortriptyline/flouroxetine as I all ready have flouroxetine and seen slight benefit from it in regards to emotion and ruminations etc.

I'm surprised you have been suffering so long valor and haven't tried these specific combinations.

I am also skeptical about SSRI action but really have no choice in this continuing situation, I am going to trust the advice of Jaiho and DR Ken Gillman, he's even been kind enough to let me reference him to my current pdocs.

Thank you so much guys I hope my chances of success are increased because I'm tackling this early as I have only felt this for around 6-8 months now so hopefully ECT isn't necessary.
 

Edited by caliban, 11 September 2019 - 08:11 PM.

[jaiho]

I think you'll get great results from the combination, Zinzan. As i did.

If you don't though, don't give up. You can swap things up, there's lots of room for dose/drug adjustments.

[Blanker]

They wouldn't prescribe to me they think it's all in my head. They told me again too many side effects and I was like I don't Care I'm going to a GP. Then they shut down the meeting and called me abusive.
Another month stuck wondering unless I go to a GP

[Valor5]

I was watching videos on this just now. One guy did affirmations which immediately made me feel better. Like, this is me, I am a well liked person, I know who I am and I know how I act. Some YouTube videos say this is about anxiety and the atrophy of the hippocampus via over-activation I think of the amygdala. (Sorry if you are not a biology person, I love biology) When they said stuff like that it clicked with me because whenever I took stuff to combat my anxiety in the past it made a huge difference, (and also explains memory problems) I have always been the very introverted, shy type from birth. Interestingly one individual claims to have done all the drugs even to the point of magnetic stimulation and finally settled on testosterone therapy which I used to take, and I personally recommend. Harris Harrington was the guy the video alluded to...

[Valor5]

You may want to try Amwell. It's like talking to a doctor via internet. I've never tried it but...Though it seems pricey...

[Valor5]

There are discount codes for the service and I think you can get your first visit free.

[Quaker32]

thanks valor5 will have a look at that?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Is this mostly to do with dopamine? Would the solution therefore be boostinf dopamine transmission?

 

In my case, which is that of an addict (sex addict), I would think that I would have to cut back on dopamine, but I suppose that might only be of importance to dopamine transmission in the reward pathway? After all, medications they use for addiction like naltrexone or amisulpride block that transmission? I am even thinking about getting hold of the new ibogaine synthetic analogues such as 18-MC, which indirectly reduce dopamine fluctuations in the reward pathway.

 

So in my case what do i do? many thanks if somebody is able to help me with this one (also SSRI medications make me feel like s***. They do something "funny" to my emotions as well. Ideally, I could avoid such a class of medications, but let's see). 

 

Why would it only be about dopamine? When it's triggered by Kappa-Agonists and NMDA-antagonists, as well as natural stressors.

 

The fact that SSRI's help, and they are primarily serotonergic, and Lamotrigine helps, and that's primarily a glutamate-modulator, then that implies that Dopamine is only a small part of the puzzle of DP/DR.

 

Heck, since Modafinil is used in some treatment-algorithms, then that also implies that perhaps the histaminergic and norepinephrinergic networks are involved as well.

 

 

My money, from what data we have though, is that the disease is most likely opioid and glutamate-related.

 

Depressed people have upregulated kappa-receptors, while the other receptors are downregulated - SSRI's must be upregulating the Kappa-receptors through some kind of feedback-loop.
 

Likewise, I've seen amounting opinions that Tianeptine's glutamate-modulating effects are a result of feed-back loops from its Opiate properties - this then implies that there's a very heavy connection between glutamate and opiate when it comes to this disease.

 

 

So... yet again... I'm surprised none of you ever seem to try it, but a treatment-algorithm sort of like this:

 

1. SSRI + Modafinil

 

2. SSRI + Lamotrigine

 

3. SSRI + Tianeptine

 

4. Tianeptine + Modafinil

 

5. Tianeptine + Lamotrigine

(this one... I'm a bit hesitant about... they both affect glutamate... might they cancel each other out, or make things WORSE when combined...?)

 

6. Lamotrigine + Buprenorphine + Samidorphan

(the nuclear option... the one which should smash this....!)

 

In the last step of my hypothetic, MAD version of an algorithm, you go for glutamate-modulation, while attempting to antagonise the Opioid Kappa Receptors - the resultant antidepressant, anxiolytic effect, should be highly unlike ANY currently available... quite the bullet, this one!

 

 

Small note: Quaker32 ma' man! This combo, Buprenorphine/Samidorphan, is being researched for the treatment of COCAINE ADDICTION as well...! : D This implies good things for you too, yes?

 

https://en.wikipedia...ine/samidorphan

[Quaker32]

Thank you for the reply.

 

My psychiatrist put me on Pregabalin to combat the DP/DR which he said was caused by intense anxiety. I didn't mentioned ibogaine to him, but I will mention that I took it to the next doctor that I see in about 2 weeks.  Obviously pregabaqlin is not a glutamate-modulating drug, so at first I wasn't too happy about that, but what can you do? At some level, I  have to trust him as well, after all he is the doctor....

 

Even then, the data shows that lamotrigine helps 50% of people wtih DP/DR. If I need to, I think its worth a shot!

 

We need to find out how to smash the blank mind and destroy the cognitive deficits that I (and others) are experiencing. Absolute bloody nightmare. I was the top student in neuroscience at one point and now I can barely remember anything from my course or do simple mathematical calculations inside my head, let alone visualise things (which you cannot do with the blank mind).

 

I am going to find a trauma therapist because of what I have gone through, I need to back up any pharmacological treatment with this. Also, chronic trauma has a bad effect on the brain so  let's get started. 

 

I am going to call the "Depersonalistion Unit" on monday. They are the only specialist unit in the UK for it, and actualy were the people who proposed using lamotrigine. I want them to send me any research papers or data. Bit of a long shot, but I am not giving up on this horrible disorder. 

 

 

[YimYam]

I don't want to dirty the thread by multi quoting the last two posters, but just want to say as a long time lurker, thanks for your most recent contributions guys, two very inciteful posts. Wish I could contribute a bit more, I'll make sure to try and do my bit when I am feeling a bit better, so we can beat this living hell.

 

@Quaker, where in the UK is this depersonalised unit based? Sounds interesting! Also thanks for the idea about a therapist specialising in trauma. 

 

@stinkorninjor, I have to agree that number 3 of your recommendations is one I will be considering if my combo of memantine and inositol doesn't work.