68 replies to this topic

[metabrain]

If I were you I would seriously reconsider Vyvanse with a break period at the weekends, I have issues with my attention but unfortunatly getting medication in my country is difficult but a lot of people on reddit swear by it.

[Mind_Paralysis]

If I were you I would seriously reconsider Vyvanse with a break period at the weekends, I have issues with my attention but unfortunatly getting medication in my country is difficult but a lot of people on reddit swear by it.

 

I would seriously NOT.

 

Because Vyvanse is LisDexamphetamine - it's not bound to help with the actual NE-based symptoms - the ones that seem to be rooted in SCT.

 

Dexamphetamine is waay, waay more DA-selective than Adderall or racemic Ampetamine, and that's the reason so many CLASSIC ADHD-ers like the drug - it really, really helps the people whom have DA-based problems.

 

But Z4L seems to have NE-based issues as well... Alas, another pattern which you will find, is that the people on Reddit and ADD-forums who identify with SCT finds that Adderall helps, but NOT Vyvanse - the reason? Because Adderall contains about 25% LevAmphetamine - the more NE-selective isomer.

 

 

If anything, she should consider a drug which is 50/50 or closer to it, of selectivity for DA and NE - and if she's American, there might just be such a drug! = ) It's called EVEKEO - Amphetamine-Sulphate - a 1:1 mixture of Dextro and Levo -amphetamine, in essence, this is CLASSIC Amphetamine, of the same type which you would find on the "street" - however, unlike such products, this is the real deal, and not mixed with detergents and god-knows-what.

 

Read about Kevekeo here:
 

Evekeo FAQ

http://www.additudem...icle/11455.html

 

Evekeo, New ADD/ ADHD Medication Review

https://drugs-forum....-review.283815/

 

 

Anyways, this is kind of moot, since I don't think she's done trialling Atomoxetine yet, and shouldn't give up on it just yet - it's a difficult medication to get working, but if you're not helped by the traditional DA-selective drugs, then it can pay off IMMENSELY to go the full 9 yards with it.

[Finn]

 

 

A comparison of the effects of the d- and l-isomers of amphetamine on noradrenaline and dopamine efflux in the brains of freely moving rats. The effects of amphetamine’s d- and l-isomers on the extracellular levels of (A) noradrenaline in the prefrontal cortex and (B) dopamine in the striatum of freely moving SHRs measured by intracerebral microdialysis. Each data point represents mean % of baseline ± SEM. (n = 6–11). The vertical arrow indicates the time of administration of drug or saline. *p < 0.05, **p < 0.01, ***p < 0.001 significantly different from appropriate control group according to ANCOVA with Williams’ test for multiple comparisons. Data taken from Cheetham et al. (2007). Note the different doses of the two drugs

 

 

https://www.research...radrenaline-and

 

 

https://www.research...cal_perspective

 

1 mg/kg rat dose so about equivalent of 10 mg human dose, assuming 60 kg human 1/6.2*60 = 9.67 

 

So those 1 mg/kg curves for d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine are pretty close when it comes to NE, but there is huge difference when it comes to DA.

 

So both of them are pretty similar when it comes to NE, but the difference is in how much they affect DA.

 

So ADHD-PIs get plenty of NE from d-amphetamine also.

 

One could suggest that pure L-amphetamine, which isn't available in any pharmacy anywhere anyway, would probably be bad for hyperactive or combined type, since it doesn't give as much DA.

 

But pure d-amphetamine can be just fine for inattentive.  Adderall is 75% D, 25% L, so it gives pretty much same amount of NE for same Dexedrine dose, and slightly less DA, most of it is still DA boosting D-amphetamine.

Edited by Finn, 21 March 2017 - 08:50 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

I thank you for this data - but could you by chance show me the link to the study from which you found the table as well?

 

I suppose this goes to show that Dexamphetamine does affect NE to an amount comparable to Levamphetamine, just that it affects DA MUCH MORE - in contrast, Levo seems to have very weak effects on DA-neurotransmission. (and, an overall weaker effect, but who cares? just dose higher)

 

A note about Evekeo - I have found references that it is recommended to those that have only been helped by the LOWER ends of Vyvanse-dosing - which is in line with the findings of Barkley, that SCT-ers are primarily helped only by the lower dosages of Methylphenidate and Dexamphetamine - the fact that I myself also found Vyvanse sliightly more therapeutic than Methylphenidate (hard to say by how much... maybe 10%?), but not to the dramatic extent pure ADHD-ers have reported on the drug, seems to be in line with the ideas of the two isomers having somewhat differing therapeutic effects, regardless of affinity.

 

I suppose there is something to be said about WHERE it actually alters neurotransmission as well, and not just HOW it does so.

 

Small end-note: I actually trialled Lisdexamphetamine all the way up to ca 85 mg per day, yet I still found that the benefits seemed to level out at around 20-30 mg... So, I can only surmise that I must be very sensitive to the neuropsychiatric SIDE-effects of enhanced dopaminergic function, because otherwise Dex should have been helpful at higher dosages, but alas, it was not.

 

I suppose I could start taking Dexamphetamine with an antipsychotic, but that seems IDIOTIC to me... tons of issues and problems to consider with such an arrangement - all to block excessive DA-neurotransmision, while trying to address a completely DIFFERENT systemic issue! *head-bash*

 

 

EDIT:

 

Just saw your edit, cheers for the info.

 

Still, Evekeo seems better - neither Adderall nor Evekeo is of course available in the UK or the EU though, so I sure hope Z4L isn't located in those jurisdictions, if Atomoxetine doesn't work out!

For me though, there is no hope in getting Levoamphetamine legally, if ATX ultimately fails. : [ On the other hand, supplementing ATX with low-dose Vyvanse might be a good idea, if the mono-trialling fails - the effects should be similar actually, since AMP primarily works on VMAT and not on DAT or NET. I have seen references to clashes (decreased efficacy) when it comes to combining AMP with MPH (also an NRI) though, so being vary of the combo is probably advised.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 21 March 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[metabrain]

But SCT is not recognised as a disorder, OP responds to an SNRI yes but Norepinephrine is also implicated in ADHD, I don't think OP should be considering a different disorder at this time, especially one that is not recognised because most doctors are not open minded and will not help her if she claims to have a disorder that is not medically recognized.

 

OP can take Vyvanse with an NRI without hitting Serotonin.

 

 

 

If I were you I would seriously reconsider Vyvanse with a break period at the weekends, I have issues with my attention but unfortunatly getting medication in my country is difficult but a lot of people on reddit swear by it.

 

I would seriously NOT.

 

Because Vyvanse is LisDexamphetamine - it's not bound to help with the actual NE-based symptoms - the ones that seem to be rooted in SCT.

 

Dexamphetamine is waay, waay more DA-selective than Adderall or racemic Ampetamine, and that's the reason so many CLASSIC ADHD-ers like the drug - it really, really helps the people whom have DA-based problems.

 

But Z4L seems to have NE-based issues as well... Alas, another pattern which you will find, is that the people on Reddit and ADD-forums who identify with SCT finds that Adderall helps, but NOT Vyvanse - the reason? Because Adderall contains about 25% LevAmphetamine - the more NE-selective isomer.

 

 

If anything, she should consider a drug which is 50/50 or closer to it, of selectivity for DA and NE - and if she's American, there might just be such a drug! = ) It's called EVEKEO - Amphetamine-Sulphate - a 1:1 mixture of Dextro and Levo -amphetamine, in essence, this is CLASSIC Amphetamine, of the same type which you would find on the "street" - however, unlike such products, this is the real deal, and not mixed with detergents and god-knows-what.

 

Read about Kevekeo here:
 

Evekeo FAQ

http://www.additudem...icle/11455.html

 

Evekeo, New ADD/ ADHD Medication Review

https://drugs-forum....-review.283815/

 

 

Anyways, this is kind of moot, since I don't think she's done trialling Atomoxetine yet, and shouldn't give up on it just yet - it's a difficult medication to get working, but if you're not helped by the traditional DA-selective drugs, then it can pay off IMMENSELY to go the full 9 yards with it.

 

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

But SCT is not recognised as a disorder, OP responds to an SNRI yes but Norepinephrine is also implicated in ADHD, I don't think OP should be considering a different disorder at this time, especially one that is not recognised because most doctors are not open minded and will not help her if she claims to have a disorder that is not medically recognized.

 

OP can take Vyvanse with an NRI without hitting Serotonin.

 

 

 

 

Sure enough, I can agree on that - getting treatment is key, not necessarily what the label is called.

 

A combo of Reboxetine and Vyvanse could prove to be very effective, for instance - she could then be prescribed RBX for anxiety and dysthymia, while the Vyvanse for ADHD.

 

 

Still, I don't think she should give up on ATX just yet - I mean, she's got promising results, so she could well reach efficacy at any moment!
 

 

SIDENOTE:

Today was actually an unusually effective day for me...! My reflexes, mental endurance, typing-speed and many symptoms are actually better! Physical sluggishness was lessened as well, since I actually JOGGED for a bit of my therapeutic cardio which I do every day. (a walk, sometimes a run)

 

Haven't felt like doing that in weeks! Last time was when I had efficacy from ATX.

 

Also done some game-concept work today! Which is also something I haven't had the stomach to do for several weeks. Titrated down to 50 mg from 80 mg... Could things be stabilizing? I am on approximately day 18 of treatment, for cycle 3.

 

 

I am however, also on day 4 or so, for treatment with 10-15 mg sublingual freebase NSI-189 as well, so that could effect things as well... I don't think so though, since last time I tried combining the two - they actually amplified each other somnolence side-effects severely.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 21 March 2017 - 10:47 PM.

[jack black]

 

I agree with Dutchykins, the whole story remind​s me a family member who was officially diagnosed with dyslexia, ADHD, and depression (by different docs), but I suspect she has mild autism/Asperger's combined with social anxiety. She also suffered from low self esteem her entire life. She also poorly responds to ADHD treatments. She got better when I put her on my stack, but sadly she is too disorganized and stubborn to take that huge pile of pills and powders by herself.

 

Okay so based on Dutchykins and jack black's posts I did some more searching on Autism last night. I found this checklist of Asperger's symptoms specific to women, and some, maybe even a fair bit (like 60-75%?) definitely applies to me. But I just see a lot of unproblematic traits that I and many people I know happen to have (apparently neurodivergents tend to find other neurodivergent friends, but I also happen to have NT friends and there are distinct differences). As in, these traits seem to be more personality quirks than problematic symptoms in a clinical sense. To use an ADHD example, I can see how a trait like being late or forgetting appointments (exec functioning problems) can be problematic and dysfunctional in a person's life (that is my life). But other symptoms like fidgeting or "out of the box thinking" stuff that is also common to high-functioning ADHDers is more a personality trait than clinically problematic in my opinion, or at least that's been my experience. I can see hypothetical examples where those traits could be abnormal to the point of social exclusion, but I think high-functioning people with these disorders have a tendency to "normalize" themselves to fit in. I've done that for sure.

 

I'm not trying to trivialize Asperger's because I think if you take a holistic look at these symptoms, they can definitely wreak havoc in a person's life on multiple dimensions, and that's actually where I identify with this checklist the most. I am, no matter where I fall on the ADHD or ASD or any other scale, not a normal person. I have tried to be. I'm Iranian by birth and grew up in Canada, so the immigrant mentality established by my parents was to keep your nose down and to fit in as best as possible. And that's what I've tried to do, to varying degrees of success, for years. I've always been a social outcast. And it's hurt me, and I have social anxiety, generalized anxiety, and depression, much of it likely to do with the general neurodivergent-ness of my self. I've never liked group interactions. I've tried office jobs. School sucked but I have a high IQ and I've successfully got myself some great, high-paying gigs. But I could never lead a normie life. I can't handle the deeper existential aspect of doing meaningless work. I found a passion and worked my ass off to make it my full-time job (and now I'm trying to grow that into something that actually pays more than living hand to mouth). There's a lot of stuff in this checklist and ADHD personality checklists that can be tied to my neuroatypical personality, and it's who I identify as. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm pretty okay with who I am, quirks and all. I've adapted to many social problems in my life. I've surrounded myself with friends who are accommodating to my needs, who are supportive, who get me. The place where I've had problems in a CLINICAL sense, which is to say, the areas where my life is still dysfunctional, involves a lot of the executive functioning areas that I and Stinorninjor have described. So at the end of the day, I am trying to resolve that through Strattera and other nootropics.

 

Jack Black, I'm curious to know, what is your stack?

 

 

I came back to this thread as the offending feedback to my previous post was removed (yup, sensitivity to criticism is paramount in AS).

Z4l, you and me have a lot of things in common, you sound like my clone, except for gender and i'm an immigrant from europe. I went ahead and looked at the checklist you linked. I haven't seen it before, but it looks gender neutral, and I scored whopping 84%. I'll try to ask my female troubled cousin to take that, be she resists those things.

 

To briefly answer about my stack, here are the main components:

1. Base, take it almost daily at AM: ALCAR, NAC, vitB complex (including inositol), vit D3, vit E, fish oil, ashwaganda, low dose lithium orotate, NAG, carnosine (this one is the most helpful from all). Green tea extract in mid day when i get tired.

2. Extra boost, needed for extra stressful days at work: piracetam and DMAE.

3. Take it rarely, only when hit with depressive like episodes due to work/personal life setbacks: SAMe, tianeptine, methylfolate, and some others.

 

But, the most helpful is stress and burnout avoidance. I learned to plan ahead a bit better and cut on procrastination, that is my Achilles heel.

 

Wish you the best and stay in touch!

 

PS: there is one additional clue about myself, that i still fail to understand. Many years ago, when i was depressed due to stress and burnout, a doc put me on Serzone. I was super sensitive to that medication, and I figured out i benefited greatly from a very small dose (1/8-1/16 of a tablet), especially while taking weekend holidays from it. I took it for many years and it helped me with social/family life at the expense of lessening my out of box and creative thinking. It didn't help with ADHD-like symptoms and procrastination though. Because of that and the fact the medication was removed from USA market I eventually stopped it. Since then I could never find anything working as well as that. I suspect 5HT2a antagonism was the main benefit. yet, i had positive experiences with 5HT2a agonists (think mushrooms). Not sure how that fits in the whole puzzle.

 

 

Edited by jack black, 23 March 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[z4l]

I've been at a music and film festival in the U.S. since Thursday and got home (I live in Canada btw) late last night. I have some ATX dosage updates and more insights on what's going on, but for now all I'll say is: I've been on 60mg since Thursday and that dosage, plus appropriate amounts of coffee, have been working well. 

[z4l]

So, my doctor and I talked last last Friday about whether to try 70 or 60mg, in order to lessen the drug-induced depression/despair and insomniac side effects I've been experiencing.

 

Due to a mess-up involving the pharmacy, I received only the 60mg capsules and didn't realize it until I was already in the U.S., so I took 60mg from Friday onward.

 

60mg has been wonderful. I needed a lot of energy during the festival: I saw on average 2-3 movies a day and another 3-5 music acts, plus a lot of socializing, talking about movies/music, which I love to do, walking around downtown Knoxville, and taking in the local colour. So I started drinking at least a cup of coffee a day, and one day I overdid it and didn't sleep that much. But otherwise, I slept decently. The important thing is, the coffee synergized *beautifully* with the ATX and removed the lethargy I'd been experiencing on it. I believe it gave me that extra dopamine push I needed to really unlock all of my ADHD problems. I'll admit that the experience of the trip itself was adding a fair degree of excitement and energy to my psychological state. I'd been dreading the trip because I hadn't prepared myself for it in a professional or organizational sense, since I'd been so depressed, and I felt bad since my professional acquaintance who co-organizes the festival had been generous enough to invite me down and use festival funds to pay for my hotel room. Also, we were a small social group—the organizer acquaintance couldn't be around as much, but 3 of our mutual friends were also there, after we got over some social awkwardness (based on some previous history involving our mutual friends) we became quite a happy little bunch. As soon as I got there I realized how easy and chill the whole thing would be, and how rewarding and good for me on a spiritual level, too. I'm a total aesthete when it comes to art—especially music, cinema, and theatre—but I've had a complicated relationship with music in the last decade plus, and haven't really kept up with it like I did in my teens and early twenties. I haven't enjoyed a live show in over a decade, and many of the acts I saw this weekend were new discoveries for me. It was just a beautiful, perfect, unique festival experience. The movies I saw were also just very nourishing and amazing. It's really rare to have a perfect festival experience these days, because so many arts festivals are bloated and there's too many people and too many logistical problems and etc etc.

 

I felt aesthetic nourishment this weekend in a way I hadn't experienced in far too long, especially the music. Experiencing good art also makes me feel extremely creative and helps me loosen up. I started becoming more of myself, freer of my inhibitions. My mode of self expression feels turned on, and I really do think the ATX and coffee have a big part to do with this. I started making notes for a creative story, and jotting down a bunch of things I'd like to try out on a creative level.

 

Monday I hung out with the organizer friend at his farmhouse and chilled out, Tuesday I mostly slept and recharged my battiers, and today I'm now getting back into the swing of things. I feel like a button has been reset in my brain. It feels really good.

 

I know that we develop tolerance to stimulants quite quickly, and I don't want to burn out from stimulant overuse. I do feel though that ATX's anxiolytic quality has given me an ability to handle caffeine in a way that wasn't available to me before.

 

Since I'm still healing my back and can't rely on strenuous exercise for that dopamine push, what else can I combine with the Strattera to give me that extra dopamine boost? I know Selegiline is contradicted with ATX, and I don't want to do anything dangerous, even trying a 1-2mg dose of Deprenyl since it's an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, but I'm wondering if a weaker reversible MAO-B inhibitor might work? Or maybe follow Stinkininjor's Armodafinil microdose lead and try that? And perhaps cycle through a few of these stimulants (caffeine, MAO-B, EGCG, others, plz recommend??) 3-4 days a week and take plenty of breaks to prevent tolerance and burnout? I'm very curious to know what you guys recommend based on my success with ATX and coffee.

 

(I should note btw that before the coffee experience, I did also notice that drinking 2 cups of chai tea every day helped "activate" the ATX and help get me out of the lethargic state... But the additional caffeine in coffee seems to help a lot more...)

 

 

[gamesguru]

Do you have anhedonia or alexithymia?  Have you tried ginkgo or magnesium?

[z4l]

I came back to this thread as the offending feedback to my previous post was removed (yup, sensitivity to criticism is paramount in AS).

Z4l, you and me have a lot of things in common, you sound like my clone, except for gender and i'm an immigrant from europe. I went ahead and looked at the checklist you linked. I haven't seen it before, but it looks gender neutral, and I scored whopping 84%. I'll try to ask my female troubled cousin to take that, be she resists those things.

 

To briefly answer about my stack, here are the main components:

1. Base, take it almost daily at AM: ALCAR, NAC, vitB complex (including inositol), vit D3, vit E, fish oil, ashwaganda, low dose lithium orotate, NAG, carnosine (this one is the most helpful from all). Green tea extract in mid day when i get tired.

2. Extra boost, needed for extra stressful days at work: piracetam and DMAE.

3. Take it rarely, only when hit with depressive like episodes due to work/personal life setbacks: SAMe, tianeptine, methylfolate, and some others.

 

But, the most helpful is stress and burnout avoidance. I learned to plan ahead a bit better and cut on procrastination, that is my Achilles heel.

 

Wish you the best and stay in touch!

 

PS: there is one additional clue about myself, that i still fail to understand. Many years ago, when i was depressed due to stress and burnout, a doc put me on Serzone. I was super sensitive to that medication, and I figured out i benefited greatly from a very small dose (1/8-1/16 of a tablet), especially while taking weekend holidays from it. I took it for many years and it helped me with social/family life at the expense of lessening my out of box and creative thinking. It didn't help with ADHD-like symptoms and procrastination though. Because of that and the fact the medication was removed from USA market I eventually stopped it. Since then I could never find anything working as well as that. I suspect 5HT2a antagonism was the main benefit. yet, i had positive experiences with 5HT2a agonists (think mushrooms). Not sure how that fits in the whole puzzle.

 

 

Thanks so much for all of this jack black! I really appreciate the suggestions. If we have a similar biochemistry, your stack is definitely worth a try. Now that the ATX is really making a difference with my Exec Functioning skills, I'm ready to look at how I can be more productive using some of the supplements you recommended.

 

I am not as well read on the neuroscience aspects of these different supplements and how they might fit in with ATX, but I think I'm going to start with the real basics (Magnesium & Zinc at night, Vit B/D/E) and then slowly add in carnosine, NAG and NAC. 

 

I have taken ALCAR in the past but not sure if I should mix it in with other stimulants or take it as a stand-alone... Gotta research that.

 

I'm curious to know if I'll have any reaction to racetams now that I'm on ATX.

 

I should maybe also consider Noopept again since it did give me a boost on the first day or two, but I think i quickly tolerated to it and that's why I got so tired. Cycling all the stimulating supplements and taking breaks from stimulants in general is a must, IMO.

 

Gotta start meditating again and taking more baths...

 

As for your experiences with Serzone—that is very interesting. How does that experience compare to you taking Tianeptine and SAMe? I should read up more on how serotonin receptors work, because I think I'm sensitive to anything involving them and it could have an impact based on some of the supplements I try (my negative side effects from ATX may have something to do with the possible serotonin reuptake inhibition at 80mg, as Stinkininjor suggested). I once had a mild hypomanic episode several weeks after I stopped Zoloft treatment in my late teens, and the one time I took a single dose of SAM-e I had a really scary and thankfully short-lived derealization experience where I felt like I was in a dream. 

[z4l]

Do you have anhedonia or alexithymia?  Have you tried ginkgo or magnesium?

 

Anhedonia yes, alexithymia, not really, but what Stinkininjor said about the dysthymic aspects of SCT and the emotional dimension of ADHD is very relevant to me. I'm curious to know how ginkgo/magnesium might help. 

 

Since I started ATX, I've noticed that I am a lot more CHILL about what other people do. I won't judge others' actions or make large-scale assessments of them based on a single action. I don't have enough information to make a judgement, and how am I benefitting from judging others, anyway? Moral superiority? Who cares. In other words, I'm now logical about my emotions, but I'm not experiencing any blunting. For most of my life, I've been very paranoid about other people's actions and responded quite negatively (either in my own head initially and then later being bitchy to them, or on the rare occasion, being outright confrontational and angry). I might exaggerate in my head why someone might do something, which may have wronged me, wronged someone else, or is generally just inconsiderate/not lining up with my own values. I do tend to be quite intuitive and sometimes I'm actually quite astute as to what people are feeling or thinking, this has been true, but my lack of judgment and emotional intelligence wouldn't necessarily lead me to take the right action. Or sometimes I would just read too much into a situation instead of shrugging my shoulders and moving on and living my life. I would become easily affected by others' actions, and my overactive imagination would kick in and I would take something as simple as a person' nonchalant facial expression as meaning they don't care about me, and then this would haunt me for DAYS. And it would effect me to the point that I might turn myself off from a person or people, say something embarrassing and bitchy, which would further distance me from people, even my own friends, and then I would wallow at home in isolation, wishing for "real friends," even though I'm really the one who misread a situation, and feeling desolate because as an extrovert I really need social interaction. 

 

The thing i've noticed though is that even though I'm better capable of dealing with emotions, I still have to DEAL WITH THEM. It's like the emotions are in the background,  but if I'm genuinely angry with someone, I may be able to operate and move on and not say something cruel, but at some point I need to sit down, own up to those feelings, and decide to take action—confront the person with a gentle, kind approach, or move on and not be resentful, or whatever it may be. I've now had to do this several times, and I feel able to do it, but it's gonna take some time before I'm a master at it. I think this is part of the process with anyone who has reached a successful state with their ADHD medication. You still need to do a lot of behavioural re-training in order to truly overcome your ADHD problems. The medication gives you the means, but you still need to rewire your brain in a behavioural sense, through training, CBT, consistency, routine, habits, etc, to become a high-functioning person. 

[z4l]

Stinkorninjor. Not Stinkininjor. Sorry, mate 

[jack black]

As for your experiences with Serzone—that is very interesting. How does that experience compare to you taking Tianeptine and SAMe? I should read up more on how serotonin receptors work, because I think I'm sensitive to anything involving them and it could have an impact based on some of the supplements I try (my negative side effects from ATX may have something to do with

Nothing really compared to serzone. I keep looking for a good alternative. But it's not something you want to take all the time as I noticed creativity and motivation suffered on it. I believe some dark sides of our psychology give us an edge sometimes.

As for the best resource on serotonin (most important) receptor is this:
https://selfhacked.c...blems-and-cirs/

[gamesguru]

 I'm curious to know how ginkgo/magnesium might help. 

Since I started ATX, I've noticed that I am a lot more CHILL

 

Sometimes you take a substance (I won't say which one) and some personal development coincides with your use, it's tempting to attribute your growth to the substance itself when in fact you simply matured.  Give yourself due credit..  And as for the background / retrograde anxiety, you can learn to act in spite of it and to use some marihuana when that fails?

 

 

The amount of literature on either compound far exceeds what you could read in a single lifetime.  I'll just share some stuff that strikes me or that I read recently.

 

Ginkgo helps ADHD and depression[1] or low mood, visual memory (as evidenced by my chess rating), oxidation and cerebral blood flow, stroke/ischemic damage, parkinson's or tardive dyskinesia, etc.  It can have some tolerance issues as well as anxiogenic or fear memory facilitating effects, so I take it every other day with bacopa or ginseng on the off days.  It can also make you lose your breakfast if you take it with too much green tea.

 

Magnesium helps anxiety and depression (anhedonic), the extinction of bad memories, recovery from TBI or concussion, mitochondrial dysfunction, etc..  I take it every other day, with zinc

[Finn]

 

 

PS: there is one additional clue about myself, that i still fail to understand. Many years ago, when i was depressed due to stress and burnout, a doc put me on Serzone. I was super sensitive to that medication, and I figured out i benefited greatly from a very small dose (1/8-1/16 of a tablet), especially while taking weekend holidays from it. I took it for many years and it helped me with social/family life at the expense of lessening my out of box and creative thinking. It didn't help with ADHD-like symptoms and procrastination though. Because of that and the fact the medication was removed from USA market I eventually stopped it. Since then I could never find anything working as well as that. I suspect 5HT2a antagonism was the main benefit. yet, i had positive experiences with 5HT2a agonists (think mushrooms). Not sure how that fits in the whole puzzle.

 

 

 

 

As for your experiences with Serzone—that is very interesting. How does that experience compare to you taking Tianeptine and SAMe? I should read up more on how serotonin receptors work, because I think I'm sensitive to anything involving them and it could have an impact based on some of the supplements I try (my negative side effects from ATX may have something to do with

Nothing really compared to serzone. I keep looking for a good alternative. But it's not something you want to take all the time as I noticed creativity and motivation suffered on it. I believe some dark sides of our psychology give us an edge sometimes.

As for the best resource on serotonin (most important) receptor is this:
https://selfhacked.c...blems-and-cirs/

 

 

While the original developer of the drug stopped selling their brand product Serzone, generic nefazodone is still available in USA, if you want to go back to it.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

I started the most recent cycle on the 27th of February, and have been using it ever since - that makes for a total of 16 days of treatment. Hmm... I can see how this might be a bit too aggressive of a dosing-schedule - I was able to be aggressive with the dosing thanks to Armodafinil! About 37,5 mg's takes away many of the worst side-effects for me, and becomes synergistic.

 

Currently on 70 mg, at day 16.

 

So far, 70 mg seems more tolerable than 80 mg - however, yesterday I did NOT use Armodafinil, since I felt the need to get in bed early, and that may have to do with my feelings of aggression and anxiety yesterday - I was quite fatigued, most likely from ATX side-effects yesterday, so that may have affected mood.

 

Can you describe in more detail the acute effects you get from combining Atomoxetine with Armodafinil? I'm interested in trying a few different combos with Atomoxetine once I figure out my dosing situation and stabilize the right dose (probably 70mg) for at least 2-3 weeks. Hopefully by then I have my sleep hygiene in better control. I'm still not sure I'm getting enough REM and/or deep sleep on Atomoxetine—at least not on 80mg.

 

Moda/Armodafinil is one of those combos. It sounds extremely powerful. Maybe even... too powerful?

 

 

Armodafinil is different from Modafinil though, more dopaminergic, and people have reported that it has a harsher come-down - personally I've used both, and I found Modafinil to be much better tolerated.

 

I wouldn't say the combo of Modafinil / Atomoxetine is too powerful - as long as you keep the dosage low - 50 mg to a 100 mg of Modafinil should be ok to trial.
 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Side-note: I tell people to repeat themselves all the time too! xD I used to say I have a hearing-disability, but really, I don't - it's just hard to make out individual words when there are some other sound at the same time, or perhaps the person is talking fast - this is one of the signs that SCT is more of a form of sensory processing disorder than ADHD - that is more or less what the SPL does, so it makes sense.

[jack black]

Side-note: I tell people to repeat themselves all the time too! xD I used to say I have a hearing-disability, but really, I don't - it's just hard to make out individual words when there are some other sound at the same time, or perhaps the person is talking fast - this is one of the signs that SCT is more of a form of sensory processing disorder than ADHD - that is more or less what the SPL does, so it makes sense.

 

thanks for mentioning this. I have that SPD for sure, but lately i thought it was just a part of autistic spectrum.

i looked it up some more and learned a lot of new things!

 

Sensory processing disorders (SPD) are more prevalent in children than autism and as common as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, yet the condition receives far less attention partly because it’s never been recognized as a distinct disease.

[...]

One of the reasons SPD has been overlooked until now is that it often occurs in children who also have ADHD or autism, and the disorders have not been listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by psychiatrists and psychologists.

[...]

“Until now, SPD hasn’t had a known biological underpinning,” said senior author Pratik Mukherjee, MD, PhD, a professor of radiology and biomedical imaging and bioengineering at UCSF. “Our findings point the way to establishing a biological basis for the disease that can be easily measured and used as a diagnostic tool,” Mukherjee said.

https://www.ucsf.edu...disorders-kidsi

 

on the other hand, the establishment says this:

 

Because there is no universally accepted framework for diagnosis, sensory processing disorder generally should not be diagnosed.

http://pediatrics.aa.../peds.2012-0876

 

I'm thinking those cases are either undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as ASD or ADHD.

Edited by jack black, 12 April 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

Side-note: I tell people to repeat themselves all the time too! xD I used to say I have a hearing-disability, but really, I don't - it's just hard to make out individual words when there are some other sound at the same time, or perhaps the person is talking fast - this is one of the signs that SCT is more of a form of sensory processing disorder than ADHD - that is more or less what the SPL does, so it makes sense.

 

thanks for mentioning this. I have that SPD for sure, but lately i thought it was just a part of autistic spectrum.

i looked it up some more and learned a lot of new things!

 

Sensory processing disorders (SPD) are more prevalent in children than autism and as common as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, yet the condition receives far less attention partly because it’s never been recognized as a distinct disease.

[...]

One of the reasons SPD has been overlooked until now is that it often occurs in children who also have ADHD or autism, and the disorders have not been listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by psychiatrists and psychologists.

[...]

“Until now, SPD hasn’t had a known biological underpinning,” said senior author Pratik Mukherjee, MD, PhD, a professor of radiology and biomedical imaging and bioengineering at UCSF. “Our findings point the way to establishing a biological basis for the disease that can be easily measured and used as a diagnostic tool,” Mukherjee said.

https://www.ucsf.edu...disorders-kidsi

 

on the other hand, the establishment says this:

 

Because there is no universally accepted framework for diagnosis, sensory processing disorder generally should not be diagnosed.

http://pediatrics.aa.../peds.2012-0876

 

I'm thinking those cases are either undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as ASD or ADHD.

 

 

Interesting - I actually had my own doubts that classic SPD truly existed, prior to this! An interesting point though, is that much like SCT, the disorder seems to be focused on the posterior networks of the brain - but not necessarily primarily the SPL.

 

I wonder... could SPD be a more closely related disorder of SCT, than ADHD is??

 

 

On another note - I myself am more of the opinion that the the cases whom have SPD and get misdiagnosed would probably be more likely to receive a diagnosis of Learning Disorder Not Otherwise Specified, i.e LD-NOS - a kind of nonsense, atypical diagnosis, acknowledging that they have problems, but it's hard to pin it down to any known learning problems.

 

It's probably a mix of different misdiagnosis, or, most likely, no diagnosis whatsoever. : [

 

 

Hmm... makes me think... do I have SPD, or is it just that SCT is similar to SPD? I know Barkley mentions during one of his speeches how some think SCT is merely Sensory-some-thing - but he says that SCT is different.

I can't recall if it was Sensory Processing Disorder or Sensory Integration Disorder he said though...

[jack black]

 

I can't recall if it was Sensory Processing Disorder or Sensory Integration Disorder he said though...

 

 

it's the same thing, Sensory Integration Disorder (or Dysfunction) is older terminology.

I found this checklist: http://www.sensory-p...-checklist.html

i have/had most of the issues under Auditory-Language Processing Dysfunction, Social, Emotional, Play, And Self-Regulation Dysfunction, and some of the Hypersensitivity To Touch, and Sensory Seeking Behaviors.

 

This is fascinating! OP, Sorry for this hijack.

 

[z4l]

Armodafinil is different from Modafinil though, more dopaminergic, and people have reported that it has a harsher come-down - personally I've used both, and I found Modafinil to be much better tolerated.

 

I wouldn't say the combo of Modafinil / Atomoxetine is too powerful - as long as you keep the dosage low - 50 mg to a 100 mg of Modafinil should be ok to trial.

 

It's been a few weeks. Stinkorninjor, how are you doing on the Atomoxetine? 

 

I'm nearly done Month #3, and I figured it was time to provide an update!

 

It's still going pretty well on the 60mg. My diet has improved drastically, which I think is helping my moods as well. Last couple of weeks I have tried experimenting eating a crappy diet every few days (e.g. when eating out with friends) and realizing the immense lethargy and lingering negative effects it can have on my mood. It's astonishing that I never made this connection before. Perhaps because I was too addicted to sugar + crappy food to quit anything long enough to really notice a difference.

 

I do find that I still have to motivate myself a lot to do things, but there's like a more logical part of my brain that tells me "Yeah, why *aren't* you doing this? Why are you wasting time?" And I start to have this conversation with myself internally that basically tries to determine the reason why I'm being lethargic or lazy. Sometimes it's justified: I'm burnt out, in which case I no longer blame myself for not being as super productive as I'd like to be. Other times I recognize it's because I'm giving into an impulse, and I try to change course. I've comparec ADHD to my pdoc to walking a disobedient dog that's curious about the millions of smells it encounters on the street. The dog enthusiastically goes from one spot to smell something before bounding across the sidewalk to smell something else, and so on. I have absolutely no control over its leash to make it walk the direction it should. The ADHD part of my mind is the dog—I would just let it do whatever it wanted, and if I tried to direct it, I had absolutely no control over the "leash." I now feel like I've trained the dog, somewhat. I can calmly talk to it and say hey, we were going to go down this path. Let's go! When I pull at the leash, sometimes it just takes one pull to go the right direction, sometimes it takes several. But the dog obeys! Most of the time anyway. That's definite progress. 

 

My morning routine has become more consistent, and I'm now trying to do some behavioural training (the dog analogy is real!) to resolve my tendency to procrastinate with my freelance work.

 

I'm still figuring out the stimulant part of the equation—no Vyvanse or Armodafinil/Modafinil yet, but they're next on the to-try list. I've been drinking more coffee than usual. I now drink coffee 1-3x a week. It's not like I'm entirely caffeine-free other days—I have 1-2 cups of green tea, but my body has always been able to handle that smaller amount of caffeine. Drinking coffee can be good, but the less I do it, the better it is. It's more effective, makes me happier, and is less likely to give me lingering anxiety problems.

 

If anyone has any research or anecdotal reviews to share in terms of how stimulants work with the female hormone cycle, I'm interested to learn more.

 

I've always known my cycle and ADHD are related. With meds now in the picture, I'm curious to observe how it's changed. For example, I noticed in the last week or so, Atomoxetine was less effective and my occasional cup of coffee made me extremely nervous/paranoid. It was worrying, but then it resolved itself. I'm wondering if it was because I was in the high-progesterone phase of my cycle (which always messes me up, cognitively and emotionally).

 

Final note: Strattera + caffeine + alcohol in the same day = Bad combination. I will only sleep 4 hours that night. This is not much of an issue since I've made it my goal to drink less and I'm now better at impulse control. But it's something I have to plan if I'm expecting to celebrate or have inebriated fun.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Ey, cheers for the update Z4L - glad to hear things are still improving! = )

 

It's only so-so at my end though... still a burnt-out wreck, still get some problems from the medication as well. I'm on 80 mg at the moment, and still trying to get it to work - it's a bit odd though, because I've almost had a few days where I thought the drug was working, but it's still not quite right... the results are still inconsistent.

 

Let's see... how long have I been at it... I'd say about 52 days, which would be... approximately 7 weeks.

 

Well... I'm a month and a half into it, and still not quite right. Last time I had a truly functional day was probably at 70 mg - but as usual, it was only for that ONE day! So, perhaps I'll go down to 70 mg again, hmm...

 

 

Anyways, even though I previously had such a positive outlook on ATX, with extended experience, it's really hard to recommend Atomoxetine, considering the side-effects profile and duration until effect - none of this is really reasonable for someone with an attention-disorder! Or, depending on the severity of the pro-depressive effects... anyone, really.

 

If this fails, I'll try out racemic amphetamine - which is looking more and more promising for each passing day which ATX fails to deliver... On the other hand - mean time until efficacy is presumably TWO MONTHS! 0_o So, I've got at least two more weeks of ATX to go, before I can truly, finally, give up on it, according to every scientific measure.

[z4l]

Anyways, even though I previously had such a positive outlook on ATX, with extended experience, it's really hard to recommend Atomoxetine, considering the side-effects profile and duration until effect - none of this is really reasonable for someone with an attention-disorder! Or, depending on the severity of the pro-depressive effects... anyone, really.

 

If this fails, I'll try out racemic amphetamine - which is looking more and more promising for each passing day which ATX fails to deliver... On the other hand - mean time until efficacy is presumably TWO MONTHS! 0_o So, I've got at least two more weeks of ATX to go, before I can truly, finally, give up on it, according to every scientific measure.

 

That's fair. It's impressive that you steadfastly gave it the 2-month trial despite all the side effects. Most people don't have the stomach (sometimes literally) to stick it out that long, and a drug like this needs it (I'm proof of that).

 

Have you considered that some of the other things you're taking might be affecting the ATX? I'm not taking anything other than fish oil & some vitamins. Even caffeine at higher doses (I'm sensitive so that just means drinking a coffee versus my 1-2 cups of tea) seemed to directly influence how the ATX was working in my body, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Just a thought.  

[Mind_Paralysis]

It's possible. I'm actually feeling better and being less fatigued and tired by it at the moment - went back down to 70 mg a couple of days ago.

 

I might actually try going back down to 60 mg, like you did, and see what happens. It's getting rather annoying to be so incredibly unmotivated though - it actually seems as if the drug worsens most of my symptoms when it's not working!

 

Once in a blue moon, usually when I change the dosing (hence why I went up to 80 mg - every time I increased the dosage I got a few therapeutic hours - strangely enough, I felt the same when I went *down* in dosage as well...! rather curious.)  it really, really improves symptoms though.

 

Cheers for the vote of bad-assness btw! ^^ Yeah, I am actually aware that most people would have, and HAVE given up on the drug way, way sooner than this.

 

All right... a few more days! Might be lowering the dosage again, by weeks end too.

[z4l]

4.5 Month Update:

 

Hey guys,

Just wanted to let you know how I'm doing on Atomoxetine (60mg/day). Most of the creativity/mood/motivation-enhancing benefits have really settled down, so what I'm left with now in terms of helpful effects include: better impulse control, executive functioning, and emotional regulation, plus no anxiety! As described in earlier posts.

 

Unfortunately, I injured my back in January and it's still not better, and not being able to exercise to get that neurotransmitter-balancing effect that I have for so long relied on is really starting to frustrate me, because I still feel a lack of motivation. Now that Atomoxetine has me on such an even keel, deadlines and other urgent affairs don't jack up my dopamine/norepi levels like they used to. That's good for my stress levels, but because I relied for so long on this push, it's detrimental for working/GTD. For improving my life, e.g. my daily habits, diet, relationships with others, this drug has been so helpful, but when it comes to motivation/concentration in a pinch, it's not so good.

 

I've cleaned up my diet a LOT thanks to Atomoxetine. I am a lot more aware of how food affects my body, and my body just wants healthy food ALL THE TIME. I think it's starting to make a difference in my hormonal imbalance and PMSing, plus I generally feel a lot healthier not snacking on sweets/other junk food all the time. The effect this drug has had on my relationship to food/alcohol is actually kind of messed up, to be honest. I can go into more detail if needed.

 

My doctor is still looking into seeing if he can prescribe me a stimulant on top of the Atomoxetine, but the other day I found an old bottle of Concerta I'd been prescribed earlier and tried augmenting one pill (18mg) just to see what would happen. I usually get ridiculous anxiety and a crash and burn feeling on methylphenidate, but that didn't happen this time. I didn't sleep so well the first night and I was clearly over-stimulated, as I went about cleaning the house and just crossing off a lot of things from my to-do list like a ninja, but it felt nice to have that motivation kick into high gear for a change. Is it possible that Atomoxetine's highly selective effect on NET/DAT/SERT in the brain is dampening dopamine and/or serotonin receptors elsewhere? I know that this can happen with other reuptake inhibitors that can throw other neurotransmitters out of balance. Because I also felt a lot happier with the Concerta addition. The effects stayed with me for another two days...! Which also has never really happened before. I took it on Tuesday, and then Thursday/Friday I slept a ton.

 

I don't really want to rely on dopaminergic drugs for that motivation/happiness push because I know it isn't sustainable, but I'm wondering if Atomoxetine's NMDA receptor antagonism could help with stim tolerance, like Memantine? Could it prolong MPH's motivation kick, or no?

 

Speaking of NMDA receptor antagonism, one huge drag from taking Atomoxetine is that my memory is almost nonexistent. I have always had a terrrrrrible memory (of any kind), but this is almost unacceptably bad. If anyone knows how to help reduce this side effect, I'd greatly appreciate it. 

 

[Helllllo]

I think that's because alpha 2 agonists antagonise acetylcholine receptors? Was wondering if reboxetine would theoretically have the same outcome as atomoxetine?

[z4l]

8 Month Update:

 

Okay. So a LOT of stuff to report here. Please bear with me!

 

In the last few months, I have been reading about the hormonal connection in ADHD. Patricia Quinn is one of the few people actually researching the subject of how women undergo a very different experience with this disorder due to fluctuating hormonal levels (e.g. in addition to puberty, there's menstruation and menopause). I have had hormonal issues dating back to adolescence: cystic acne, PMS symptoms including menstrual cramps, irritability, depression, anxiety, and I had surgery several years ago to remove a grapefruit-sized ovarian cyst after it painfully burst.

 

I am normal and functioning, sharp, cognitively capable from Day 2-5ish until the mid-point of my cycle (the follicular phase). Basically, when progesterone is low and estrogen is rising. The week before I get my period, the huge nosedive in both estrogen and progesterone makes me incredibly fuzzy-brained, forgetful, anxious, etc. I have tracked my menstrual cycle for a few months now and it's always the same repeated cycle. During the follicular phase the presence of estrogen allows me to be fine. The more the better (estrogen keeps going up and up, so I notice cognitive improvements on literally a day-by-day basis). During the extremely low estrogen days (last few days of the cycle), I'm a total mess, even with the Atomoxetine. If you google hormones PMS ADHD, you'll find tons of ADHD forum posts from women about how their medication is useless in the last 2 weeks of their cycle.

 

To balance my hormones I ordered Shatavari (Asparagus racemosus) which appears to have or possibly have several mechanisms of action that could help me. 

 

Examine.com page: https://examine.com/...ntific-research

 

Also: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21843599

 

"This indicates that [methanolic extract of Asparagus Racemosus] is a non-selective competitive inhibitor for both cholinesterase and monoamine oxidase enzymes. Evaluation of K(i) values show that MAR inhibited these enzymes less potently compared to the respective standard drugs

 

It's primarily taken as a galactagogue for mothers with little milk, and it's also prescribed for PMS/menopause. I also ordered Vitex, which is also supposed to balance progesterone . Many PMS-afflicted women have estrogen dominance (too high estrogen vs progesterone, though one can be estrogen dominant and low estrogen -- it's all about the ratio of the two hormones). 

 

I tried the Vitex and after 2 days I realized that it was seriously messing with my brain. I felt mentally challenged and could barely get out of bed. I stopped that, but kept going on the Shatavari, and after about a month+ of taking it, my skin colour actually went from translucent pale to a normal skin colour, my skin stopped being so dry, I became a lot happier and more productive, I started eating a lot more food (the atomoxetine still makes it difficult for me to eat), and generally things got better. Up until a point. During my next cycle, as I reached the second week of the follicular phase when estrogen surges, I became very anxious, my heart kept beating rapidly, and when I tried to meditate I experienced my very first panic attack. It turns out that Shatavari, while it supposedly has a modulating effect on the HPA-axis (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23485433), which is vital to balance one's hormones, it can also be estrogenic, so I may have done some overkill. 

 

I stopped taking Shatavari and then supplemented with it every other day during the last week of my cycle. That particular PMS period ended up being one of the strangest body experiences I've had in my life. I had IMMENSE muscular pain all over, I couldn't deal with any minor stresses, my body felt freezing cold, and to top it all off, I was attending a film festival that actually requires lots and lots of energy and minor stresses. Whoops.

 

I didn't know about the HPA axis when I tried out all this stuff. I've now been doing lots of reading on hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue, and I'm worried that my brief stint with Shatavari, followed by me immediately cutting it off, (save for a few pills during PMS week), did something. Also, as reported in another thread here, Atomoxetine can raise cortisol levels (http://www.longecity...-your-hpa-axis/). I think that my undereating problems from Atomoxetine has worsened any pre-existing hormonal imbalances or HPA-axis issues I already had and when I tried to fix it, I introduced new problems (too much estrogen) and then by sharply cutting off the Shatavari a return of all previous symptoms came back twice as strong. It's true that if you really do have a neuroendocrine problem, it takes months of remedies (whether it's drugs, supplements, good diet, gentle exercise and other stress-relieving activities) to fix it. 

 

I'm not sure what to do now. I went to a new family doctor the other day for an introductory visit and I have a follow-up appointment for an actual physical in a couple weeks. Generally, family doctors know so little about these issues, and even specialists are known to look at lower-than-normal thyroid levels and proclaim you're fine. So I don't trust Western medicine in helping me out.

 

I also don't want to take some adaptogens willy nilly, though I am so desperate to solve this problem I think I might. I am reordering the Shatavari, and I recently started taking Rhodiola. Might add Ashwagandha as well, though in the past when I used Ash, after 2 months it started making me break out (which I reported on Longecity).

 

I'm noticing that if I eat well, my symptoms are much more manageable, but if I slip up even *one* meal (I eat too late, or I eat dairy for 2 days in a row, or gluten foods, or crappy food), then I immediately have the return of the cold hands/feet/cold intolerance, general weariness, muscle pain, etc. 

 

I'm also undergoing some personal problems right now which are DEFINITELY not helping with cortisol/stress. Unfortunately they're unavoidable.

 

I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP ATOMOXETINE. It has basically made me a normal person. I don't freak out on people anymore. I am always on an even keel. My brain works logically now, and I use that to my advantage to have better conversations and to make better work. I don't have so many of the problems I used to have and I'm scared of giving it up. If Atomoxetine increases cortisol in my body, and that's mucking up my HPA axis, I'm scared that years down the line I may develop autoimmune disorders or worse. Here's another theory, btw, why Shatavari made me anxious (since it's not confirmed that it is estrogenic): My HPA axis was already compromised, which made my ADHD unbearable, then I started atomoxetine, which heightened my cortisol levels and caused me to undereat, which caused god knows what further damage to my hormones/HPA, and as soon as I found an adaptogen that was fixing things, suddenly the side effects that healthy people typically report with Atomoxetine snuck in on me (e.g. anxiety and fast heartbeat).

 

Are there any solutions for me? Should I go see a naturopath and get my hormone levels checked out? Should I continue experimenting with adaptogens? The only thing I can do that's guaranteed to help is keep up the healthy diet, gentle exercise, meditation, sleep hygiene. But I want this fixed now. My ADHD medication may have made me more patient but when it comes to this stuff I'm so impatient!

 

One last thing, and I feel really stupid for having done this, because I try to be informed about what I do to my body and not be uhm, stupidly reckless. I mixed Atomoxetine with Deprenyl. They are contradicted. I know, I know, I was playing with fire. I had a bottle of the liquid stuff and it had exactly one drop left, and during the nadir of my fuzzy, achey, PMS period, I tried it just to see if it would help. Within a couple of hours, my muscle pain went away, my brain cleared up, and I was able to do my work at the festival. I actually forgot that I'd taken it and then when my husband asked me if I felt better, I was surprised to find out that I was, and then 15 minutes later I realized oh yeah, duh, I took the deprenyl.

 

Open to advice and opinions on what is going on with me.

 

(P.S. Sorry for not linking to things, having technical problems).

Edited by z4l, 02 October 2017 - 12:39 PM.

[z4l]

Two last notes:

 

1.  I suspect my previously reported memory problems were due to hormonal issues, since this problem clears up during the high-estrogen follicular phase.

 

2. You might wonder how the Atomoxetine and Deprenyl worked together. I do not recommend it. I may have experienced hypomania. It was a rollercoaster ride. I think my rising estrogen levels are again to blame. I took the Deprenyl around the first day of my period. I felt better immediately, then as my estrogen levels began to ever so slowly rise, I became really happy/outgoing/energetic/motivated, and then by the end of the first week of my cycle I became super anxious, got scared I had fucked up my hormones again, took a Vitex, which basically took away the anxiety (and much of the cognitive benefits). I don't want to repeat that again.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Thank you for the info regarding ADHD and hormonal effects - certainly something to think about, especially since recent data is shrinking the gender-gap in ADHD - and then there's the question of what I have: SCT - there IS NO GENDER GAP in this disease! (and it's certainly possible that you have it as well)

 

I'm not sure if you have considered this btw - but Norepinephrine is actually a hormone as well - so you using Atomoxetine is actually in some ways going to affect your hormonal systems as well - it's just unclear how big that effect is going to be.

 

Btw, there's not necessarily anything wrong with including a bit of Dopamine-action if it helps you, even though you're on ATX - for instance, I just finished Reboxetine* and much like with ATX I sometimes felt it worked better with a little bit of Methylphenidate or a little bit of Modafinil added to the mix.

 

Maybe consider adding Modafinil or Focalin to the mix, if you feel as if the ATX isn't helping when you have your hormonal fluctuations, yeah? Remember -there's a possibility you have both ADHD and SCT, and then you probably need a bit of both, a mixed approach in your meds.

 

 

*(only one weeks worth of trialling! but the side-effects were beyond this world - nothing like ATX, surprisingly - similar benefits I would say, but the side-effects are completely different - instead of sedated I often found myself feeling jacked up, and instead of low blood-pressure, with freezing hands, I found myself sweating a river, and my heart-rate went through the roof - not anxiolytic like ATX either, but a bit anxiogenic I do believe - probably from the racing heart and pounding head - I got something similar to migraine from this - too much blood in my head, so it started hurting fiercely! same symptoms as from guanfacine discontinuation - high blood-pressure. because of this I'm not giving up entirely on RBX though, because it may be from something wrong with my alpha-2-receptors form guanfacine use - down-regulation most likely)