25 replies to this topic

[treonsverdery]

Noting that, as far ask I know, metformin as well as other metformin like molecules cause greater longevity at lab mammals what are supplements that measurably reduce blood sugar?  Cinnamon is mentioned.  I interpret as reducing blood sugar 8 out of 100. Gymnema sylvestre is also mentioned at pubmed.  It is published as reducing glucose about 1/3 at both rodents and humans. https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26665406

 

does anyone here know if there are supplements that are metformin like in effect?

 

I saw this link, which lists a few things.

http://www.healthlin...abetesOverview1

 

Cinnamon is mentioned at this pubmed thing https://www.ncbi.nlm...koyama Cinnamon

"Cinnamon intake, either as whole cinnamon or as cinnamon extract, results in a statistically significant lowering in FBG (-0.49±0.2 mmol/L; n=8, P=.025) and intake of cinnamon extract only also lowered FBG (-0.48 mmol/L±0.17; n=5, P=.008). Thus cinnamon extract and/or cinnamon improves FBG in people with type 2 diabetes or prediabetes."

 

translating those numbers, I interpret -.48 as about -8 on the the diabetes thing where 100 is (was) normal:

mmol/L mg/dl   0.06 1   0.28 5   0.55 10

 

 

So theoretically, if you used cinnamon, you would likely go from 100 to 92.

Gymnema sylvestre, if as published at 1 gram each 24 hours, could cause lightheadedness, going from 100 to 65.

 

Niftily enough, CVS pharmacy tests blood glucose for $25.  So one could test blood sugar first, then get some gymnestre sylvestre on ebay for $5.98, then test again to see if it was having any effect.

Edited by treonsverdery, 31 December 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[pamojja]

 

So theoretically, if you used cinnamon, you would likely go from 100 to 92.

Gymnema sylvestre, if as published at 1 gram each 24 hours, could cause lightheadedness, going from 100 to 65.

 

Don't forget that the 30% decrease in blood glucose was in diabetic patients - like from 180 mg/dl to 120 mg/dl - and that many blood glucose botanicals miraculously don't decrease it further in healthy subjects.

 

I test my blood glucose since many years, usually for 1 month 3 times daily and calculate the average fasting and postprandial blood glucose for these periods. In 2013 I took for the first time 1.15 gram gymnema sylvestre powder - gurmar of meshashirngi churna - as it is called in Ayurveda, along with 300mg as extract. My fasting blood glucose went from 104 to 95 mg/dl. Postprandial from 124 to 110 mg/dl.

 

However, many other supplemental cofounders might be at play, with now way to know for sure.

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 01 January 2017 - 12:24 AM.

[RWhigham]

does anyone here know if there are supplements that are metformin like in effect?

ActivAMP the active ingredient in Swanson's AMPK Activator, and in LEF's AMPK Activator. I noticed a significant BG drop when I started taking two capsules per day.

 

Activating AMPK can lower blood glucose and increase insulin sensitivity. https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12864738

 

AMPK is required for metformin’s inhibitory effect on glucose production and metformin stimulates muscle uptake of glucose via AMPK activation https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC209533/

 

See http://www.longecity...ong-term-usage/ post #15  "A gynostemma pentaphyllum extract called ActivAMP® is more powerful than AICAR which is thought to have won several Tours de France before it was banned in 2011."

 

Both AICAR and ActivAMP directly activate the AMPK kinase without first causing cellular stress, and it appears they don't activate AMPK in neurons which can cause Alzheimer's disease https://www.scripps....410polleux.html

Edited by RWhigham, 01 January 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[pamojja]

ActivAMP the active ingredient in Swanson's AMPK Activator, and in LEF's AMPK Activator. I noticed a significant BG drop when I started taking two capsules per day.

 

How many mg/dl your fasting and postprandial BG dropped?

[zorba990]

Allantoin is a possibility
http://www.longecity...with-allantoin/

[RWhigham]

How many mg/dl your fasting and postprandial BG dropped?

My morning blood glucose (BG) on rising has dropped from the 80's to the 70's (mg/dL). My after lunch BG has dropped similarly.

 

My BG is not typical. I avoid postprandial spikes of hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinism by eating a low-glycemic diet - no rice, no wheat, no potatoes, and no sugar. I had my one big meal for the day 1½ hours ago, and my BG at this moment is 73 mg/dl.

 

My lunch was pretty ordinary: (not low-carb, low-fat, low-protein, vegan, or vegetarian - just low-glycemic)

I eat lots for lunch because it's my only meal of the day. Lunch was puttanesca chicken on steamed broccoli and cauliflower with parmesan cheese, olives, and sour cream on top.

 

I look forward to a cup of "hot chocolate" after lunch everyday:

My "hot chocolate" contains 1½ teaspoon Gold Coast cocoa, ½ tsp glycine, 1 tsp of ceylon cinnamon powder, 1tiny  scoop (600 mg) of TMG crystals, and 1 tsp of Now inositol powder.

Edited by RWhigham, 03 January 2017 - 11:20 PM.

[sthira]

I eat lots for lunch because it's my only meal of the day.

Your post feeding BG numbers look excellent -- horray for you!

So if you eat only once per day, then you fast daily for >20/h or so? Do you attribute your great numbers to the daily fasting, or do you think the Swanson's product is also helping? Have you self-tested one against the other?

[RWhigham]

So if you eat only once per day, then you fast daily for >20/h or so? Do you attribute your great numbers to the daily fasting, or do you think the Swanson's product is also helping? Have you self-tested one against the other? 

I was eating once per day long before I added ActivAMP. My blood glucose dropped after I added the ActivAMP - one capsule in the morning and one in the evening.  (I had the cinnamon in my "hot chocolate" long before hand too, but I have a hunch they may enhance each another). 

Edited by RWhigham, 04 January 2017 - 12:02 AM.

[sthira]

^^With such low BG do you notice your energy for exercise is in any way diminished?

Sorry to bombard you with questions! But do you monitor ketones?

Edited by sthira, 04 January 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[RWhigham]

With such low BG do you notice your energy for exercise is in any way diminished?

My energy level is almost too high. I've started saying to myself a lot lately, why walk when you can run? then I run.  I had to discontinue other exercise for now - lifts, chinups, pushups - because of a damaged elbow.

Edited by RWhigham, 04 January 2017 - 12:38 AM.

[Heisok]

Also sorry about this question, and will piggyback on sthira.

 

In the subject of Ketones. How do you think that your Acetate consumption effects them, and your great blood glucose numbers. I have a theory that the high MG Acetate intake might help the side effects one sometimes sees when they are starting very low carb eating. (I recall you writing about the metabolism of Acetate in the brain for energy if I remember correctly. ) I have been experimenting with the various forms of large dose MG Acetate consumption. Good energy, but no conclusions beyond that for me at this stage.

 

P.S. I have been waiting a long time to ask you about this.

 

^^With such low BG do you notice your energy for exercise is in any way diminished?

Sorry to bombard you with questions! But do you monitor ketones?

 

Edited by Heisok, 04 January 2017 - 12:48 AM.

[RWhigham]

In the subject of Ketones. How do you think that your Acetate consumption effects them, and your great blood glucose numbers. I have a theory that the high MG Acetate intake might help the side effects one sometimes sees when they are starting very low carb eating. (I recall you writing about the metabolism of Acetate in the brain for energy if I remember correctly. ) I have been experimenting with the various forms of large dose MG Acetate consumption. Good energy, but no conclusions beyond that for me at this stage.

I have a Ketonix® breathalyzer. I don't know how accurate it is, but it always shows me to have a low level of ketones. The more accurate ketone strips were too expensive for me. I don't know a lot about acetate, except that it alkalinizes my urine just fine (to reverse osteopenia).

 

Acetate has an extremely short life. It replaces bicarbonate in infusions, because it rapidly metabolizes in mitochondia to CO2, which is immediately converted to bicarbonate by erythrocytes. The erythrocytes transport the bicarbonate to the lungs, where oxygen converts it back into CO2. Take away - acetate metabolizes very fast.  http://www.ajkd.org/...0043-7/abstract

 

Acetate has 9.1 kcal/g. There is about 1-2 g of acetate in a glass of my water = 10-20 kcal. Normally, one metabolizes 2,000 kcal/day = 1.38 kcal/min. Water leaves the stomach in less than a minute. If the acetate absorbs over the next 10-20 min, it could almost double your ATP output during that time. Do we feel that? perhaps.

 

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 04 January 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[Heisok]

Thanks for the reply RWhigam.

[sthira]

With such low BG do you notice your energy for exercise is in any way diminished?

My energy level is almost too high. I've started saying to myself a lot lately, why walk when you can run? then I run. I had to discontinue other exercise for now - lifts, chinups, pushups - because of a damaged elbow.

Haha that's awesome! Keep doing what you're doing!

Regarding ketones, I don't use a meter either because the price of the strips is outright extortion. Bastards. But I always know when I'm entering into ketosis because I can taste something like rotten fruit deep within my chest and it rises up into bad breath. This passes in a few days on an extended fast, but meanwhile I find myself apologizing -- I'm sorry I know my breath smells alcoholic...

I eat a vegan diet, and just one meal per day. For the past 12-months I've been following Longo's suggestion to fast seven days every now and then. Except I've been fasting seven days per month -- so I'm probably overdoing it. Longo advocates a fasting mimicking diet, which I don't follow, I just go water only, and boy do my BG drop to nearly nothing -- 40s and 50s eek sometimes 30s and this would be dangerous for chimpanzees, but our bodies have this backup ketone system, so low BG meets high ketones, and the world is just fine.

But now I'm considering buying this AMPK activator you're suggesting. Another respected poster here suggests Doan's backache pills (magnesium salicylate -- very inexpensive) combined with nicotinic acid may also activate AMPK.

[treonsverdery]

continuing the thread of what Herbs are metformin like in that they reduce blood glucose, I just read that NDGA, which is also called masoprocol, and can be found at the creosote bush extract called chaparral reduced blood sugar from 21 to 14.3 in mice, wheras metformin reduced it from 21.7 to 12.8.  So it is possible that chaparral herb (leaf) capsules (which might be about half NDGA) are another metformin like herb.

 

the part from the paper with numbers says

 

Diabetic animals (glucose 16-33 mmol/l) were treated with vehicle, metformin (0.83 mmol/kg body weight) or masoprocol (0.83 mmol/kg body weight) twice a day for 4 days. Masoprocol treatment lowered glucose concentrations an average of 35% compared with vehicle (14.2+/-1.1 vs 21.7+/-1.0 mmol/l, p < 0.001), a reduction similar to metformin treatment (12.8+/-0.9 mmol/l), without any change in insulin concentration. Masoprocol treatment also lowered triglyceride concentrations 80% compared with vehicle (1.0+/-0.1 vs 4.8+/-0.3 mmol/l, p < 0.001), a reduction far greater than following metformin treatment (3.6+/-0.3 mmol/l). Non-esterified fatty acid and glycerol concentration were decreased by approximately 65% by masoprocol compared with vehicle, a reduction approximately twice as great as seen with metformin (p < 0.001).

 

pubmed has a link to the paper at  https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10027587

 

Chaparral capsules are on ebay at about $14.97 for 180 500 mg capsules, so I got some.  Also, for your amusement, NDGA is an antioxidant and there are 11,000 year old creosote bushes!

Edited by treonsverdery, 23 February 2017 - 01:25 AM.

[tintinet]

Chaparral has been associated with severe liver damage, in some cases requiring liver transplantation.
In 1992, the F.D.A. issued a health warning urging withdrawal of all chaparral products.

[maxwatt]

A traditional Chinese medicine, (TCM) Huan Lian Jie Du Tang, (HLJD) supplemented with Schizandra and root of Polygonati odorati (Solomon's seal) improved glucose tolerance in rats in a study done in South Korea.  The substances in the four herb combination of Huan Lian Jie Du Tang are predominantly berberine and baicalin.  Berberine is well known to have a similar action to metformin, plus it may according to some, block the reuptake of sugar by the kidneys.  Baicalin agonizes SIRT3 and may possibly potentiate pancreatic stem cells, according to some studies.  Schizandra blocks uptake of sugar in the small intestine. In the paper, the Korean researchers stated Polygonati odorati was included because it agonizes PPAR alpha and gamma, which resveratrol is also known to do.

HLJD can be ordered on the internet or on Amazon.  Some comes from China, but there is an Atlanta based company that offers the combination in capsules.   Caution for your rats:  TCM practioners recommend that HLDJ not be taken continuously, but as a course of treatment for specific conditions.  I suspect it's the berberine, due to its effect on the Kindeys, but that is only a guess.

 

 

Huang-Lian-Jie-Du-Tang Supplemented with Schisandra chinensis Baill. and Polygonatum odoratum Druce Improved Glucose Tolerance by Potentiating Insulinotropic Actions in Islets in 90% Pancreatectomized Diabetic Rats

 

We investigated to determine what effects, if any, the respective water extracts of Radix scutellariae (RS), Fructus schisandrae chinensis (FSC), Huang-Lian-Jie-Du-Tang (HLJDT), and HLJDT supplemented with FSC, and Rhizoma Polygonati odorati (HLJDT-M) would have on glucose tolerance by modulating glucose-stimulated insulin secretion, β-cell mass, and morphometry in 90% pancreatectomized (Px) diabetic rats fed high-fat diets. Through the elevation of intracellular cAMP levels, FSC RS, HLJDT, and HLJDT-M increased insulin secretion in Min6 cells and GLP-1 secretion in NCI-H716 cells. After an 8-week period of treatment, it was found that HLJDT-M improved glucose tolerance in an oral glucose tolerance test in Px rats. HLJDT-M also potentiated first- and second-phase insulin secretion, but RS and HLJDT elevated only the second phase at hyperglycemic clamp. RS and HLJDT increased β-cell mass by hyperplasia and hypertrophy, while HLJDT-M increased it only by hyperplasia. The rise in hyperplasia was associated with elevated IRS2 and PDX-1 expression in the islets. In conclusion, HLJDT-M worked as an anti-diabetic prescription by enhancing insulinotropic actions in diabetic rats.

 

http://www.tandfonli...1271/bbb.90276

 

(Who rated this as off topic?  OP was asking for herbs that had metformin like action on blood sugar.  This combination meets that requirement.)

 

paper

Edited by maxwatt, 07 March 2017 - 02:04 AM.

[tintinet]

Chaparral has been associated with severe liver damage, in some cases requiring liver transplantation.
In 1992, the F.D.A. issued a health warning urging withdrawal of all chaparral products.

https://livertox.nih.gov/Chaparral.htm

[VP.]

Grapefruit Juice. 

Results showed that mice fed the high fat diet receiving grapefruit juice weighed 18.4% less than the controls after 100 days (31.4+0.7g vs 38.5+2.8g, P<0.05). This group also saw fasting blood glucose that was 13% lower compared to controls (P<0.05). Fasting serum insulin levels were 72% lower compared to controls (P<0.05). Finally, triglycerides in the liver were reduced by 38% in this group compared to the control group. Those mice on the low fat diet saw a decrease in fasting insulin, but none of the other effects as seen in the high fat diet group.

Grapefruit juice use compared favorably to those receiving metformin. Weight loss was seen in both groups with no statistically significant difference noted. Both groups also saw lowered fasting blood glucose and serum insulin levels (P

The use of grapefruit juice in reducing weight and improving blood glucose was seen in this study using mice even when consuming a high fat diet. Based on these results, a 70kg human would need to consume about 3.5-4 cups of grapefruit juice per day to compare to the amount given to mice. Trials are needed to determine if grapefruit juice can produce similar results in humans. In human trials, attention should be placed on the impact grapefruit juice can have on inhibiting cytochrome P450 enzymes which are responsible for the metabolism of medications.

http://www.diabetesi...lin-resistance/

Watch out for this: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3589309/

 

[BieraK]

Jiaogulan 
https://examine.com/...a-pentaphyllum/

 

Berberine

https://examine.com/...ents/berberine/

[normalizing]

grapefruit juice seems to have worked on mice fed high fat diet, not sure how that correlates in any way to humans just consuming it for longevity not even considering using high fat diet. and second, its a serious thing to consider because of its inhibition of enzymes not only responsible for medication clearance but all toxins present in all of the daily life, it could include supplements as well, so thats as far from longevity extending idea as it can get right there.

 

about berberine, i used to take it for management of blood sugar and depression as it has studies on this. not only did it not help me with this, it caused me diarrhea, yellow stools and i read it killed most of the beneficial bacteria, which is stupid why bother killing your beneficial bacteria and how berberine a good idea for life extension??

 

ive no experience with jiagolun to report, but i did read reports of people using it with no beneficial effects.

[VP.]

More on the good and bad effects of grapefruit juice:

In the last 10 years, grapefruit has been a pharmacologoist’s nightmare, given its popularity and potential for interaction with many therapeutic drugs. To date, no clear guidelines have been put forward to protect vulnerable patients against the hazardous consequences of grapefruit–drug interactions. However, it is now emerging that apart from drug interactions, which have largely been attributed to furanocoumarins, flavonoids such as naringin and hesperidin could be playing more important roles in the prevention of diabetes and cardiovascular diseases. Attention has now shifted to investigating the molecular mechanisms by which these flavonoids exert their protective cardiovascular effects. In the coming years, basic and clinical research in cardiovascular pharmacology should be focused on grapefruit and its flavonoids and/or their chemical derivatives.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3721883/

Edited by VP., 07 March 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[normalizing]

you can spend money on grapefruit juice and spend money on junk food to stuff yourself to cause diabetis and cardiovascular disease and hope grapefruit juice will counteract that as shown in mice studies OR, you can save money, not buy grapefruit juice OR junk food and go the clean safer best way to prevent diabetes and cardiovascular disease which is, dont eat as much!

[shadowhawk]

you can spend money on grapefruit juice and spend money on junk food to stuff yourself to cause diabetis and cardiovascular disease and hope grapefruit juice will counteract that as shown in mice studies OR, you can save money, not buy grapefruit juice OR junk food and go the clean safer best way to prevent diabetes and cardiovascular disease which is, dont eat as much!

 

Unfortunately you have not said much.  By the way, I didn't mark you down.    As a diabetic myself, grapefruit has some benefits but to much sugar for me.  What junk food are you talking about?  All food is not the same.
 

[RWhigham]

Bierak said (in the context of non-metformin blood glucose reducers)

 

"Jiaogulan  https://examine.com/...a-pentaphyllum/"

 

ActivAMP discussed in Post #3  is Jiaogulan aka gynostemma Pentaphyllum 

 

Exaimine.com shows it strongly effects blood sugar:

 ActivAmp.jpg   19.63KB   0 downloads

Edited by RWhigham, 13 November 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[Gal220]

Look at the ingredients on glucator  and  glucose optimizer , 

 

-Nopal Cactus

-Konjac Mannan

-Gymnema ( you mentioned, you want a high extract of gemnemic acids       ** in both brands

-Cinnamon ( use an extract like cinnulin pf)

-Banaba Leaf extract                                                                                        ** in both brands

-Bitter Melon                                                                                                     ** in both brands

-Resveratrol

 

-Renew life weight loss probiotic - specific strains that signal your cells to burn sugar

 

-Acetyl Carnitine - in most fat burners, use before a workout.

 

Not in either brand, but considered equivalent to metaformin is Berberine , nootropic guy recommends taking with milk thistle to avoid DNA damage.  If on medication, check for issues with it, very common.

This article thinks Berberine acts by causing malabsorbtion and doesnt recommend it.

If you do take it, never ever let the capsule sit in your mouth too long...

Edited by Gal220, 01 September 2020 - 02:14 AM.