71 replies to this topic

[matteroftime]

OK, it sounds like a commercial, but it is actually amazing. I found out about PEA a while ago and it seemed too good to be true. However, I've tried it and LOVED IT. For some initial info here's a copy/paste of a post I found on Facebook. The poster didn't say many things and she is focused mainly on relieving pain (not even close to being its only benefit), but this is a great introduction, so feel free to ask anything and let's get the topic started. I would LOVE to hear from people who have had experience with PEA in any form. 

 

The post:

 

"I would like to emphasize that EVERYTHING I write here is scientifically proven and certain. I've spent a few months reading clinical studies, comparing results, learning anything I can and after that drilling customer support people and doctors with questions, so I feel confident about this.

 

Here's a quick rundown of PEA (mind you, I'll try to keep it shortish, so feel free to ask about anything and I'll explain in more detail and provide references):

 

- PEA (PalmitoylEthanolAmide, there is another compound with the same acronym, so I'm pointing this out) in an endogenous compound that our bodies make to protect our cells. It restores balance inside a cell and heals it and this is what happens when we hit ourselves and feel pain. The initial levels of pain quickly decrease and this is so due to PEA.

 

- However, it doesn't help only with pain, but also any kind of inflammation and disbalance inside a cell. Inflammation is particularly important here, since it is a cause of many problems, including allergies and pain. PEA calms the inflamed cells (for allergies, mast cells, for example) and prevents further inflammation. It is even used as support for cancer patients and diabetes and much more.

 

- Its NNT is noticeably better than that of many painkillers. (if you don’t know what NNT is, ask. I don’t want to write about that here, it’s too long already. In short, it is the way that efficacy is measured). For conditions such as hernia, or sciatica NNT has been tested and proven better than for many common painkillers.

 

- There are no side effects. NONE. More than 400 studies and the only ones were mild gastric issues and diarrhea and these probably come from a sweetener sorbitol. However, you can buy PEA without sorbitol or any fillers now, so simply go for that version. The reason why there are no side effects is that it is a fatty acid amide which has been around even in single cell organisms. Being a fatty acid amide, it is simply decomposed when there is too much of it and it causes no discomfort whatsoever. Nobody is allergic to PEA. It is COMPLETELY NATURAL, but also SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN.

 

- There is no overdose level. You can take as much as you want without any fears. However, YOU SHOULDN’T and I’ll explain why below.

- There is no habituation. You can take it for as long as you want.

 

- There is no correlation with any other drugs. You can take it alongside anything without any issues. Our bodies make it naturally anyway even when we take some drugs.

- THERE ARE THREE PROBLEMS. FIRST OF ALL, in order for our body to start making PEA, our cells need to get damaged. Basically, we need to get ill, or injured. SECONDLY, if the condition is chronic, our bodies can fail to create enough PEA to manage pain and we get – chronic pain. THIRDLY, PEA is completely safe in any amount, but we can’t absorb just any amount. Our bodies can take in limited amounts at once and everything else simply gets broken down and wasted.

- All of these issues are solved by building up the levels of PEA before the issue and gradually. Today we can buy PEA supplements and use them to build up the levels and this can even serve as prevention (the first things I saw regarding PEA were studies that examined prevention efficiency for flu and cold).

- Our absorption capacities vary, so buildup can last between a few days and a few months. If you don’t notice improvement after more than three months, you probably can’t absorb enough PEA and it will not help you. However, judging by NNT, this is so for a small number of people.

 

- Why isn’t it more famous? It’s been familiar in the scientific community since the 1950s. In the 1970s there were several large studies and in the 1990s a Nobel Prize winner Rita Levi-Montalcini discovered how PEA works. The problem was that it was not affordable enough for general public. However, new extraction methods improved purity and reduced expenses, so now we get it.

 

After all these and loads of clinical studies, I started contacting doctors and sellers. To my surprise, many doctors weren’t familiar with PEA. As for the sellers, they were (most of the info here comes from them and was later confirmed for me by studies and doctors who actually knew about it). However, not everyone was eager to answer my boring questions . I have to say that I’ve developed somewhat of an amicable relationship with customer support people of one seller and I will gladly recommend them.

 

 

OK, that's it. Looking forward for your experience and thoughts...

 

 

[RWhigham]

 

 

OK, it sounds like a commercial, but it is actually amazing. I found out about PEA a while ago and it seemed too good to be true. However, I've tried it and LOVED IT.

Where did you get it, do you have a reliable source?

[matteroftime]

I've been ordering for a few months from https://peacure.com/. I've had four orders so far and the last two came in three days, while the first two took 2 weeks. Apparently, they moved to shipping from within the US, which is perfect for me. Another member of the forum here told me he buys them from Nootropics Depot as powder and then takes it. I found the idea interesting, but decided against it eventually. This is not too expensive anyway and why tamper with sth that works for me. Anyway, why would I retell it, here's the link below

 

http://www.longecity...le/#entry799702

 

 

[zorba990]

Anyone try for enhanced workout recovery? Or would it interfere with adaptation.
Also curious about recommending it to mother in law for chronic back pain already treated with other high dose pharmaceuticals (oxy, etc yes it's a mess)

[matteroftime]

I don't know what you mean by 'adaptation'. I'm not into that field, so please elaborate so that I can reply. As for workout, here's the link (yes, I stalked their website ). As I said, I'm not into extreme workout, so I didn't really read this article thoroughly

 

https://peacure.com/...weight-control/
 

As for your mother in law, YES. I tried it for my back and neck pain and it worked like a charm. I have to say that I was lucky enough to have had relatively moderate pain (didn't think it moderate at the time - hurt like hell and made me depressed and nervous at the same time, but I don't think I could compare my condition to what your mother in law has) and that it worked really quickly. However, she might need far more time for the buildup period. If you don't know what I mean by buildup, let me know.

 

Almost forgot. PEA also has no interaction with any other meds, so she can take it without a problem. 

 

 

[zorba990]

I don't know what you mean by 'adaptation'. I'm not into that field, so please elaborate so that I can reply. As for workout, here's the link (yes, I stalked their website ). As I said, I'm not into extreme workout, so I didn't really read this article thoroughly

https://peacure.com/...weight-control/

As for your mother in law, YES. I tried it for my back and neck pain and it worked like a charm. I have to say that I was lucky enough to have had relatively moderate pain (didn't think it moderate at the time - hurt like hell and made me depressed and nervous at the same time, but I don't think I could compare my condition to what your mother in law has) and that it worked really quickly. However, she might need far more time for the buildup period. If you don't know what I mean by buildup, let me know.

Almost forgot. PEA also has no interaction with any other meds, so she can take it without a problem.

Thanks. There is some evidence that blocking certain kinds of inflammation can slow healing. To minimize this potential effect from antioxidants, my strategy is to workout with lowest levels of antioxidants of the day and wait at least an hour after before supplementing with them. Same with my new strategy for ampk versus mtor. Ampk before and mtor after. This mimics the body's own production from what I have read. But since pea is pro ppar I'm not sure if pre or post workout is the best, or if it's action is too long for even post workout.

Edited by zorba990, 16 January 2017 - 01:11 AM.

[zorba990]

I see two things called PEA
PalmitoylEthanolAde
Phenylethylamine HCL

The latter seems to be a stimulant and potentially blood pressure raising
From reviews at http://www.powdercit...ne-side-effects

Powder city does not seem to carry the former.

[matteroftime]

When I said PEA, I meant the former, PalmitoylEthanolAmide. From what I know, regarding the workout, it protects cells and makes them balanced. This is the way how it heals inflammation. BTW, inflammation is our body's way of dealing with problems. It is a defense mechanism. The problem is when it gets out of hand, which is pretty often, as we all know it . So, inflammation tries to deal with the intruding condition and restore balance. However, it usually takes things too far. PEA should balance the cells in a different way, making inflammation surplus. Now, once again, I really didn't read about PEA regarding exercise, but if inflammation is supposed to heal our cells, but PEA does it anyway, there should be no problem. Once again, this is my layman understanding of this thing regarding exercise. PLease make sure you do some research, or even better ask an expert.

PS Palmitoyl... (the former one) has no side effects whatsoever.

[aconita]

When choosing a source keep in consideration that size does matter, micronization leads to much better absorption therefore better results...and only very few brands actually are micronized (Normast and Peapure).

 

http://jneuroinflamm...2974-014-0136-0

 

The stuff is soluble in DMSO and ethanol at about 1200mg (recommended daily dose) in 20ml (which isn't practically very feasible) therefore non micronized PEA might be cheaper but far less effective and dissolving it in solvents not a real option.

 

Here about Normast:

 

https://www.google.c...tents/US8663701

[matteroftime]

Hi aconita. Great to see there's someone familiar with PEA. I've been loving it.

 

Regarding Normast and PeaPure, I have to disagree about Normast and agree about PeaPure. Normast is made using the 'old' production process which gives it the purity of just about 60%. This means there is 40% of other stuff in there. The latest production processes ensure close to total purity

http://www.neuropath...milarities.html

 

As for micronization, from what I gathered, various levels of micronization are good for various issues. You can find more info here
http://pea2foundatio...ways-pure-pea2/

Just two parts

 

"PEA2 is a very special substance. It is an oily substance with a crystalline structure. This makes it difficult to reduce PEA2 in size. If you just grind the PEA2 (which is cheap) it will stick and it becomes difficult for the body to digest. You need a special production process to avoid this from happening. Only then, an optimal PEA2 product is created that can be optimally absorbed into the body.

 

This optimal production process is used by only 3 PEA2 producing companies. The techniques are based on special machine processes that are difficult to replicate. Only three companies produce PEA2 tablets like this, Epitech and Innovet, and a company that makes capsules using these machining processes, Care Pharmaceuticals. The techniques are patented."

 

"Small, refined and ultra-refined PEA2

In the optimal PEA2 product, the micro-granules stick as little as possible. Optimal PEA2 has an optimal distribution between small, fine (same size as micronized particles), and ultrafine (similar in size to ultra-micronized) PEA2 particles. This can only be achieved with special reduction techniques. These techniques are not known and used by most PEA2 capsule producers.

 

Why this production technique is best became evident in 1999.

 

In 1999 the company Innovet in collaboration with Nobel Laureate Professor Levi-Montalcini invented a special patented reduction process to optimally reduce PEA2 particles. The miniaturization must take place in a special way for the final product to be absorbed well into the body. That process is called micronization. To then make tablets out of the micronized material is also not easy. The Italian company has added all sorts of chemical substances to the PEA2, such as magnesium stearate. Initially we also worked with these products.

 

In the past decade, two companies have been working on a new production process for even better and finer particles. Both companies have developed a new production process and patented it.

 

One company (Epitech) has then proceeded to use chemical additives (because that was the only way in their opinion) and micronized and ultra-micronized tablet PEA2.

 

The other company (Care Pharmaceuticals) has developed a procedure that allows you to fill capsules with fine, very fine (comparable to micronized particles), and ultrafine (ultrage-micronized) PEA2 particles [2]. The advantage of the latter procedure was that no chemical and pharmaceutical excipients were needed [3].

 

All of these scaled-down and ultra-fine PEA2 particles come together in one capsule. Why optimize? Because research has shown that you need all these particles for optimum performance. The particle distribution is optimal because:

 

Fine particles (around 25 micron) have been found to prevent inflammation (for example prophylaxis of flu) [4],

Very fine particles (between 15-10 microns) are effective against for joint pains [5], fibromyalgia [6] and peripheral nerve pain, such as hernia [7], and

Ultra-fine particles have a significant influence on glia tissue, of great importance in chronic pain [8][9].

PeaCure, PeaVital and PEANatural  contain enough small and very small particles to calm the entire nervous system. The producing companies have patented manufacturing processes guaranteeing quality and consistency. And quality is essential for optimal absorption in the body. Not every PEA2 powder is compliant."

What do you think?

[zorba990]

Bulk very non micronized is available here

http://nootropicsdep...ide-pea-powder/

Still has a couple of good reviews.

[matteroftime]

Yeah, this is what fntms meant in the linked topic above in post #3. It is a bit cheaper I guess, but my monthly dosage costs $35 and if I buy the bigger bottle, which I do, it gets even cheaper. This is not too much and I'm sure of the quality and shipping, so I decided I wouldn't risk it. No good reason for that

[mrkosh1]

Is PEA an anti-oxidant?

 

Does PEA influence any genes?

 

Has PEA been tested in any lifespan studies?

 

 

[Heisok]

Thanks for the information. I am weighing PEA for possible addition for my wife's pain. Vitalitus claims 3.17 μm average with a standard deviation of .64 μm. I guess that would be close to 100% within the ultra-fine. Their capsules are 350 mgs.

 

Thoughts?

 

matteroftime, the passage you quoted above in post #10 from the website has numbers implying references, but I can not find the references. Can you?

 

"Fine particles (around 25 micron) have been found to prevent inflammation (for example prophylaxis of flu) [4],

Very fine particles (between 15-10 microns) are effective against for joint pains [5], fibromyalgia [6] and peripheral nerve pain, such as hernia [7], and

Ultra-fine particles have a significant influence on glia tissue, of great importance in chronic pain [8][9].

[aconita]

Normast comes in basically 2 versions: tablets and sachets of granules for sublingual route.

 

Any tablet needs excipients in order to make it solid, therefore excipients are not added because the micronization process but because a tablet just needs them in order to be pressed in that form.

 

If you tell me that a capsule doesn't need excipients therefore it is possible to fill it up with only PEA I do totally agree and in my opinion the tablet form is a poor choice compared to capsules.

 

But apart from the dislike (which might be totally justified) for the excipients the actual PEA in the Normast tablets is likely of very top quality and very nicely micronized.

 

Normast sachets comes in granules for sublingual route, since PEA taste might not be very appealing and companies knows some customers will dislike an unpleasant tasting supplement sorbitol (a sweetener) has been added in order to correct the taste.

 

Again I am with you that without sorbitol added it would have been better but as above it has nothing to do with the quality or kind of micronization process employed.

 

Capsules don't need taste correctors since are swallowed and don't need fillers since pressing in shape is not required, therefore with capsules it is very easy for the industry to omit any filler, I do like however the sublingual route but, of course, it is perfectly possible to open a capsule and pour the content sublingually, if one doesn't mind the taste.

 

What does clearly determine PEA degree of effectiveness is micronization (and eventually ultra-micronization), if particles' size is too big bio-availability is greatly reduced therefore nullifying the savings and likely causing disappointment in treating at least some conditions.

 

Micronization is such an important factor it would be unwise to believe someone is selling micronized PEA without claiming it.

 

PEA isn't an antioxidant, it does influence genes expression and I am not aware of specific lifespan extension studies (certainly not on humans, which is what in the end really matter) but likely does since just reducing inflammation anyway will increase lifespan for one reason or another (if one gets a cancer chances of long lifespan are likely reduced, I guess).

 

 

[matteroftime]

@Heisok

Yeah, I can see the references have been removed, but I can remember they were there. DOn't know why they would remove them. They mostly lead to articles and studies on
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
so maybe you can find the answer there.

 

As for Vitalitus, I contacted them as well while I was researching PEA and they were less than responsive. Moreover, I saw their smear campaign against PEA Cure and I asked them if their claims were true and asked for clarification. They gave me a very superficial response not knowing I'd read tons on PEA by then and when I asked more direct questions, they simply stopped replying, while PEA Cure were and still are very responsive, even when I asked them about the claims in the smear campaign.

 

Due to all this I haven't gone into Vitalitus's product any further. They might be very good for all I know, but I decided I wouldn't order from them due to these two things (low responsiveness and smearing others). 

 

If you tell me that a capsule doesn't need excipients therefore it is possible to fill it up with only PEA I do totally agree and in my opinion the tablet form is a poor choice compared to capsules.

 

But apart from the dislike (which might be totally justified) for the excipients the actual PEA in the Normast tablets is likely of very top quality and very nicely micronized.

 

Normast sachets comes in granules for sublingual route, since PEA taste might not be very appealing and companies knows some customers will dislike an unpleasant tasting supplement sorbitol (a sweetener) has been added in order to correct the taste.

 

Again I am with you that without sorbitol added it would have been better but as above it has nothing to do with the quality or kind of micronization process employed.

 

Capsules don't need taste correctors since are swallowed and don't need fillers since pressing in shape is not required, therefore with capsules it is very easy for the industry to omit any filler, I do like however the sublingual route but, of course, it is perfectly possible to open a capsule and pour the content sublingually, if one doesn't mind the taste.

 

What does clearly determine PEA degree of effectiveness is micronization (and eventually ultra-micronization), if particles' size is too big bio-availability is greatly reduced therefore nullifying the savings and likely causing disappointment in treating at least some conditions.

 

Micronization is such an important factor it would be unwise to believe someone is selling micronized PEA without claiming it.

 

PEA isn't an antioxidant, it does influence genes expression and I am not aware of specific lifespan extension studies (certainly not on humans, which is what in the end really matter) but likely does since just reducing inflammation anyway will increase lifespan for one reason or another (if one gets a cancer chances of long lifespan are likely reduced, I guess).

 

Great response, thank you. I would completely agree regarding capsule vs tablet and I also agree that an option of sublingual use is a better one for absorption, provided one doesn't mind less than nice (to put it mildly ) taste. 

 

However, sorbitol is another thing. Some studies including PEA had no side effects at all. In others there were a few people reporting diarrhea and stomach upset. Not many of them, but still. This was due to sorbitol. Granted, not a huge issue, but an easily fixable one (don't use sorbitol), so why would one opt for that.

 

As for Normast, I really don't get it why they don't make capsules. They obviously have great quality and producing capsules would improve purity, remove any additives and keep them up the pace.

[fntms]

I have been taking the (very) non micronized powder from nootropics depot for a couple of weeks and I would say there is some noticeable effect on inflammation and pain (I take about 750mg per day, more than that seems to upset my stomach a little).
I will now try to compare with the micronized caps from peacure.
It would be nice to find a bulk powder source for micronized pea...

[Heisok]

Thanks matteroftime, and the others, The information is helpful.

Edited by Heisok, 18 January 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[aconita]

Problem is the micronization process isn't an easy one and usually patent pending, therefore it would be hard to find micronized bulk powder...

 

In Italy there is a deal now on Peavera (the Italian brand name of Peapure) at 75€ plus shipping for 6 box (total 180 caps at 400mg each), that's 72g PEA (close to 1€/g which isn't too far from bulk powder but is nicely micronized and quality checked).

[zorba990]

Thanks for the information. I am weighing PEA for possible addition for my wife's pain. Vitalitus claims 3.17 μm average with a standard deviation of .64 μm. I guess that would be close to 100% within the ultra-fine. Their capsules are 350 mgs.

Thoughts?

matteroftime, the passage you quoted above in post #10 from the website has numbers implying references, but I can not find the references. Can you?

"Fine particles (around 25 micron) have been found to prevent inflammation (for example prophylaxis of flu) [4],
Very fine particles (between 15-10 microns) are effective against for joint pains [5], fibromyalgia [6] and peripheral nerve pain, such as hernia [7], and
Ultra-fine particles have a significant influence on glia tissue, of great importance in chronic pain [8][9].

Those kinds of claims are setting off a red flag for me. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't recall ever seeing similar for a supplement (multiple claims of different milled particles affecting different target tissues / symptoms). Absorption is certainly enhanced with micronization, liposomes, predissolved substances. But very often DIY methods for this work as well as expensive proprietary ones. E.g. good old mortar and pestle, alcohol liposomes, sonification with a jewelry cleaner, etc.

A superior product will win out. So far the purity of capsule is the most impressive thing.

Edited by zorba990, 19 January 2017 - 01:25 AM.

[aconita]

With PEA gets a bit tricky to enhance absorption DIY.

 

Mortar and pestle doesn't work because particles will clump together (explained in the patent link I provided above).

 

Dissolving might but officially PEA is soluble basically only in DMSO and ethanol (at least as solvents acceptable for human consumption, even if amounts are a limiting factor anyway) and only in a relatively small concentration, this leads to an amount of solvent in order to accomplish the dosage requirement which is unfeasible with those kind of solvents.

 

Experimenting dissolving in oils and lecithin might lead to positive outcomes but might not...and experimenting this route takes time and waste of material...and it is not always easy to distinguish suspension from solution by the homemaker (you may think to have achieved something positive but actually you didn't).

 

Liposomal inclusion likely doesn't overcome the particle size poor absorption issue...but maybe the increased bio-availability provided by the liposome carrier compensates... it seems there isn't much literature about liposomal PEA (maybe for good enough reasons, maybe not).

 

This is interesting and gives an idea of the trickiness:

 

http://www.sciencedi...032591016306696

 

 

[SearchHorizon]

Based on the OP, I had no idea what PEA is. This appears to be a super interesting compound.

 

It is super interesting, because it targets PPAR alpha, whose expression increases preferential fatty acid metabolism. Basically, it appears to be a perfect diet pill.

 

 

[matteroftime]

Yeah, completely forgot about that one . Diseases kinda took over. It also binds to CB1, CB2, GPR55 and GPR119 and it is even better than CBD and THC since it has no affinity for them.

[SearchHorizon]

Just ordered some, but not PeaCure (the purchase website didn't seem to be working right and would not accept my order as a guest).

 

I ordered from Nootropics Depot and also from Vitalitus. Alibaba showed many offers - but then I'd need to research the sellers' credibility. 

 

I will take PEA daily over few weeks, to evaluate its effects. I will post my progress and/or results every few days.

[matteroftime]

Yeah, I'd also skip Alibaba. I've never had issues with ordering from PeaCure, but what the hell. Will you be posting the results here? If not, please let me know where, since I'd like to track it.

[Heisok]

I was considering doing what you have done, by buying Vitalitis for the micronization, and another which might be larger particles. We opted to start with Vitalitus. #1 capsule twice a day for a few days, then might have my wife go up to 3. We are on day 2, and we both separately reported spaciness.  Strange feeling. I will report if it helps my wifes pain.

 

matteroftime, I saw contradictory information, What reference do you have that it binds to "CB1, CB2, GPR55 and GPR119"

 

Just ordered some, but not PeaCure (the purchase website didn't seem to be working right and would not accept my order as a guest).

 

I ordered from Nootropics Depot and also from Vitalitus. Alibaba showed many offers - but then I'd need to research the sellers' credibility. 

 

I will take PEA daily over few weeks, to evaluate its effects. I will post my progress and/or results every few days.

 

[Heisok]

According to the journal review quoted below, palmitoylethanolamide has a very low affinity to CB1 and CB2.  

 

"New Targets in Pain, Non-Neuronal Cells, and the Role of Palmitoylethanolamide" The Open Pain Journal, 2012, 5: 12-23

Jan M. Keppel Hesselink

Institute for Neuropathic Pain, Bosch en Duin, the Netherlands.

 

 

https://benthamopen....CT/TOPAINJ-5-12

Edited by Heisok, 25 January 2017 - 03:37 AM.

[normalizing]

dunno about this one,  PEA made me psychotic.

[matteroftime]

@hazy Sorry to hear that. Didn't know it had that effect.

 

@Heisok That's a messy one. GPR55 and GPR119 can be found here
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2751869/
But also on Wikipedia. This is a common thing.

Now, the same study from above contains information regarding CB1 and CB2's insufficiency to explain the effects of cannabinoids. It is extremely probable that there are other cannabinoid receptors. I would say certain, but since none have been confirmed, I'll hold back . They even call GPR55 CB3 here
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21497900

 

Officially, at the moment, PEA has no affinity for CB1 and CB2, but taking PEA does regulate some of the things that CB1 and CB2 control. This means that there is some kind of an effect so one or more of these three things are options:

 

1. There are other cannabinoid receptors which have similar job as the CB1 and CB2 and PEA binds to those, but they haven't been cloned yet. This is very probable and GPR55 could be the first example, even though it still fails to explain all effects of PEA that were tested and proven. So, there are bound to be more. Simply put, even if we forget PEA, there is still loads of empty space unexplained by CB1 and CB2.

 

2. The effects of PEA on CB1 and CB2 are through Entourage Effect. This is certain and proven, but what perplexes is that it still does not cover everything. PEA itself is far more effective than Entourage Effect could be. Or, Entourage Effect is far more powerful than currently thought. Either way, works fine.

 

3. There's nothing more than CB1 and CB2 (OK, there is GPR55), but PEA obviously exerts some kind of an effect on them. Be it binding, entourage, or something else.

 

The mechanism is definitely not completely clear at the moment, but the effects have been tested in studies, so they are definitely present.

 

PS I have found several articles where PEA is considered ligand and agonist to CB2, if I remember correctly, but I couldn't explain those due to the same questions you asked.

 

What do you think?

[Heisok]

Thanks matteroftime.