537 replies to this topic

[TMNMK]

My sprouts are growing, I'm so excited! This would be a meaningless post so here's something just to make it less vacuous: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25924817

[Oakman]

Could someone who has been following this thread give a summary of "the answer"? I'm not talking about the best way to get sulforaphane from what product, but the original question of "What is the best combination of sulforaphane and NR?" With all the back and forth about the 'best' method/form of broccoli/sulforaphane, it seems the core intent of the thread has been lost somewhere.

 

I've been taking 250mg NR and 800mg Bulk Supplement's Broccoli Extract (no stated standardized content) for some time together in the morning with breakfast. No problems with that, but what I'm interested in is what is the general consensus about taking them together or not, timing as in AM/PM, continuously or taking breaks, things like that.

[Harkijn]

Oakman, the actual original question was: Is the combination of SFN and NR the best way of stimulating AMPK?  This as opposed to mr. Kosh's previous choice of  ALA + NR, and another poster of course mentioned NR + Methylene Blue.

 

But anyway you are right: the exact nature of this synergy was not formulated (understandably because so little was known then as well as now about NR) so dosages and timeframes never came up.

I myself eat some form of crucifer at most meals so I suppose my breakfast and lunch dose of NR will meet up with SFN at some point. An interesting development lately in one of the other NR threads: NR may perform better when enough sulfur containing molecules are around.

[Oakman]

Oakman, the actual original question was: Is the combination of SFN and NR the best way of stimulating AMPK?  This as opposed to mr. Kosh's previous choice of  ALA + NR, and another poster of course mentioned NR + Methylene Blue.

 

But anyway you are right: the exact nature of this synergy was not formulated (understandably because so little was known then as well as now about NR) so dosages and timeframes never came up.

I myself eat some form of crucifer at most meals so I suppose my breakfast and lunch dose of NR will meet up with SFN at some point. An interesting development lately in one of the other NR threads: NR may perform better when enough sulfur containing molecules are around.

 

Well, perhaps others can chime in how/when they take this combo. Regarding the sulphur combo with NR I found this for foods/supplements that have it, so looks like that's why ALA was discussed. Some of these are typical breakfast type foods, but most are not, so perhaps I'll be sure to get some one or more of these in the mix with NR.

 

https://www.leavesof...and-food-lists/

 

Sulfur-Containing Supplements

• *Alpha Lipoic Acid (or thioctic acid)
• Chondroitin Sulfate
• *Cysteine
• DMPS
• DMSA/*DMSO
• Epsom Salts (baths)
• Garlic
• Glucosamine Sulfate
• *Glutathione
• Magnesium Sulfate
• *Methionine
• Milk Thistle
• *MSM
• *N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC)
• Sulfur-containing meds (antibiotics, sulfonylurea, etc)
• Taurine

*These items are not only high in sulfur—they are high in thiols as well.

Medications that Increase Sulfur

• Bactrim
• All diuretics except spironolactone

Sulfur Containing Foods

• Arugula
• Carageenan
• Coconut milk, juice, oil
• Cruciferous veggies, including:  bok choy, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, horseradish, kale, kohlrabi, mustard leaves, radish, turnips, watercress
• Dairy (except butter)
• Dried fruits
• Eggs
• Garlic
• Legumes and dried beans
• Lime/lemon juice in bottle
• Meat and fish
• Nuts
• Onions (leeks, shallots, chives also)
• Wine and grape juice

[MikeDC]

NAD+ is the native activator of Sirt1. Sirt1 activate NRF2.
There is no need to use SFN when you are using NR. Many of the plant based supplements are not real activators, they cause stress response. Too much of it becomes toxins.
SFN, Resveratrol and pterostilbene are all in the same class.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...?i=1&from=sirt1

Sirt6 also activate NRF2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...2&from=nad nrf2

Edited by MikeDC, 06 April 2018 - 09:55 PM.

[William Sterog]

NAD+ is the native activator of Sirt1. Sirt1 activate NRF2.
There is no need to use SFN when you are using NR. Many of the plant based supplements are not real activators, they cause stress response. Too much of it becomes toxins.
SFN, Resveratrol and pterostilbene are all in the same class.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...?i=1&from=sirt1

Sirt6 also activate NRF2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...2&from=nad nrf2

 

MikeDC, I don't understand why the moderation let you spread your crap and your spam, I have reported you countless times, but you are still here. I'm seriously meditating not to come back to this forum, since r/longevity and r/nootropics are bigger every day; but there is still something that I have needed to say for a long time now: fuck you, scum. 

Edited by William Sterog, 08 April 2018 - 11:30 AM.

[MikeDC]

MikeDC, I don't understand why the moderation let you spread your crap and your spam, I have reported you countless times, but you are still here. I'm seriously meditating not to come back to this forum, since r/longevity and r/nootropics are bigger every day; but there is still something that I have needed to say for a long time now: fuck you, scum.

Where did I deviate from the thread? You should be expelled!

[MikeDC]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5403866/

[TMNMK]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5403866/

 

So maybe don't drop concentrated SFN into your eyeballs! Lets say we take Dr. Patrick's estimate of 2.4μM per gram of fresh uncooked broccoli sprouts. At 100g say of sprouts you have 240μM SFN. Distributed around the body by oral administration that's probably a pretty low dose, probably well below the 10μM (noted in the paper referenced by MikeDC) of bioaccumulation in any given tissue.

 

In breast tissue,  DTC metabolite concentrations of 18.8pmol/mg (that's pico folks, 10^-12 vs micro (μ) 10^-6) 1h after oral administration of 150 μmol sulforaphane (https://academic.oup.../1485/2526686) .

 

Also note that the dithiocarbamate (DTC) metabolite measured in this paper is the SFN-glutathione conjugate CAS: 289711-21-3 which has a high molecular weight of 484.600 g/mol whereas SFN molecular weight is 177.29 g/mol CAS: 4478-93-7. So what it is saying is that  ~6.9pmol/mg of SFN (in its conjugate metabolite) was measured. That's ~6.9 nano-mol/g of SFN.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say orally ingested myrosinase and glucoraphanin result in fairly low concentrations of SFN in any given tissue, my guess is that it is lower than 10μM. Anyone know of research regarding that? Certainly as found in the study MikeDC referenced, you probably don't want to take concentrated SFN and drop it onto any given tissue, as it is a toxin above some concentration, as is the case with so many things. It is good to know where that line is, at least for one type of cell.

 

Or as Dr. Fahey of Johns Hopkins mentions in an interview: 

 

"... but it turns out that sulforaphane is also a foreign compound for our cells but in the process of being recognized and chucked out of the cell if you will, it upregulates the protective enzymes in those cells, and that's why it's so special [a hormetic effect]. So if all you ate was sulforaphane you'd be in trouble, but the same goes with just about anything you can suggest. So it gears up or cranks up the protective mechanisms of the cells."

 

But I could be wrong, curious what others think about that.

Attached Files

•  SFN-glutathione-conjugate.png   14.82KB   0 downloads

Edited by TMNMK, 08 April 2018 - 07:04 PM.

[Harkijn]

MikeDC draws a lot of ire and he has himself to blame for that. So it feels weird to defend his position here, but I must say he talks about supplements. 

As discussed earlier in this thread by threadstarter MrKosh and others (including me) eating a variety of crucifers will only be beneficial. Supplements may be different however. The  Prostaphane brand  for instance contains 10 mg SFN per tablet. It is conceivable that an avid supplement taker (as  you find them on LC) may hurt himself, though for fighting certain medical conditions SFN supplementing may be very useful.

Edited by Harkijn, 09 April 2018 - 06:17 AM.

[Nate-2004]

MikeDC draws a lot of ire and he has himself to blame for that. So it feels weird to defend his position here, but I must say he talks about supplements. 

As discussed earlier in this thread by threadstarter MrKosh and others (including me) eating a variety of crucifers will only be beneficial. Supplements may be different however. The  Prostaphane brand  for instance contains 10 mg SFN per tablet. It is conceivable that an avid supplement taker (as  you find them on LC) may hurt himself, though for fighting certain medical conditions SFN supplementing may be very useful.

 

Maybe, but there's little proof of this and no rationale. If sulforaphane in cruciferous veggies, specifically broccoli because it's the plant with glucoraphanin, is the active ingredient giving such good results in numerous studies in several areas, then what would be the difference, specifically, of taking it in a supplement vs taking it in a plant? What's the actual difference? Why must sulforaphane come in plant form for it to be any good? 

 

This is the question that I can't seem to get an answer for when it comes to people criticizing the use of supplements. The arguments are that it's not the same thing and could be dangerous, and the other is that people will take supplements so they can eat badly. To both arguments I ask, what's the difference?

 

I can understand the latter argument because the main issue is getting soluble fiber, probably to feed the microbiome that's making everybody healthy from eating well. I can also understand the issue of bioavailability, because fats are important as carriers for vitamins.

 

However, you can't say: "Well this particular vitamin (let's say vitamin E, alpha tocopherol alone btw), was dangerous when supplemented because it actually raised mortality rates." and then conclude that this must be the case for ALL supplements and that *supplements* in particular are dangerous and a problem. No, first off, the vitamin E studies were with alpha tocopherol in isolation. In other words no gamma. Secondly, every single supplement is different and must be evaluated on its own.

 

What if I freaking hate broccoli? I do btw, it's awful and broccoli sprouts taste even worse and not only that but they cause an upset stomach. How much sulforaphane is in 100g of broccoli sprouts? 30mg. What was the maximum they used showing the greatest benefit? 60mg. So what if I take 6x BroccoMax (54 mg) daily? How is that different from eating broccoli? What if I take it while drinking down a smoothie containing significant sources of ALA, Omega 9's, 3's and considerable amounts of soluble fiber from various other ground nuts, seeds and greens? 

 

Nobody knows, because nobody's studying this. They're just making up scare stories and claims based on a couple of badly designed and ill considered studies on a single antioxidant.

[sthira]

I appreciate a good morning rant, especially a good Monday morning rant, because Monday generally sucks, so thanks.

...what would be the difference, specifically, of taking it in a supplement vs taking it in a plant? What's the actual difference? Why must sulforaphane come in plant form for it to be any good?

A well worn-question is met with well worn-answers. One answer is no one knows with certitude the "actual difference", precisely, chemically, specifically, unchangingly statically, amen, between food and its isolated components. But hundreds of thousands of published peer reviewed stages of knowledge exist, and this science is growing as it expands and retracts. One difference between a whole vegetable, like broccoli, and one of broccoli's isolated compounds, like sulforaphane, is that broccoli contains more than just sulforaphane. Broccoli is like a little galaxy on your plate; sulforaphane is one little star in its vast system. Like stars, some of broccoli's components appear obvious to interested observers, so they are seen and recognized, isolated and studied, papers are published, careers emerge, the academic drama continues, while other stars or broccoli components remain hidden, or understudied, or not even discovered yet. Awaiting new science, maybe they're just as lovely or bodily healthy.

Broccoli and its little young shoots contain a variety of chemical life -- who knows -- glucosinolates, dithiolthiones, indoles, glucoraphanin, s-methyl cysteine sulfoxide, isothiocyanates, indole-3-carbinol , carotenoids, such as zeaxanthin, beta-carotene, kaempferol, a flavonoid... -- to isolate any one of these and then say oh wow -- this One -- this One Savior Chemical -- sulforaphane -- this is the key to the whole plant's health benefits.

Welp.

I'm not criticizing reductionism; I'm grateful that human minds are attempting to wrap heads around broccoli florets and maybe get tenure. Nutrition science is an ongoing affair, though, it's always in process. Meanwhile, take what you can from it and don't what you can't.

It could be that no one knows yet which of the many indie components that comprise the whole "broccoli" are responsible for its goodness. Interactions between this one and that one may give broccoli its health benefits.

So if you take Jarrow sulforaphane, a pricy unregulated trust-pill, instead of eating the food, then you'll be missing out. Some food components will interact in beneficial ways, some may be neutral, some are detrimental.

Like air, no food is perfectly healthy, and like every breath, every bite is causing internal metabolic damages.

No food is purely healthy; some foods are less unhealthy than other foods. Maybe when we transition out of our organic selves and into our inorganic, synthetic selves -- ha -- then maybe we won't have to bother with this messy biology stuff anymore. Meanwhile, here we are.

I regard food as if on an incomplete health scale, top to bottom ranked in order of health benefits: leafy greens, veggies, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds, and down and down the scale, ending at the scum bottom of crimes of nutrition in which calories are conveniently available, government subsidized to make you fat and sick for $.99 on every street corner in my neighborhood. Crimes.

This is the question that I can't seem to get an answer for when it comes to people criticizing the use of supplements. The arguments are that it's not the same thing and could be dangerous, and the other is that people will take supplements so they can eat badly. To both arguments I ask, what's the difference?

The diff is food is a wide array of compounds; supplements tend to be only those known isolated compounds that have been separated. Indeed some of those isolated compounds your body needs because your diet insufficiently provides them. I use supplements consciously to target what appears lacking.

What if I freaking hate broccoli? I do btw, it's awful and broccoli sprouts taste even worse and not only that but they cause an upset stomach. .

Then don't eat broccoli. Luckily many other healthy whole plant chewables exist in the vegosphere. Or, if you're absolutely determined to choke brocc down because of its trumpeted wonders, spice it up in pleasing recipes. I eat broccoli in myriad ways -- steamed and raw and with different spices and without, yadda, and with olive oil and without, you can disguise broccoli and make it simultaneously tasty and healthy.

Anyway, happy fucking Monday.

Edited by sthira, 09 April 2018 - 04:29 PM.

[Harkijn]

Maybe, but there's little proof of this and no rationale. If sulforaphane in cruciferous veggies, specifically broccoli because it's the plant with glucoraphanin, is the active ingredient giving such good results in numerous studies in several areas, then what would be the difference, specifically, of taking it in a supplement vs taking it in a plant? What's the actual difference? Why must sulforaphane come in plant form for it to be any good? 

 

 

Hi Nate, you really needed to get that off your chest! That's good, it enhances longevity.

I was however not posting about supplements in general, I take a whole lot of them myself. Nor do I want you to eat crucifers , though I eat a lot of them myself for SFN, I3C, PEITC, NMN (LC has threads on these).

 SFN is however a particularly bioavailable substance: 82%, way more than curcumin or quercetin and peaking extremely fast after ingestion.

Supplementing SFN in considerable quantities may perhaps for certain people lead to unwanted by effects that won't necessarily be readily noticed. As posted by people way earlier in this thread there has been some research on this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4019935/

I agree that we should know much more before achieving certainty what dose is good for whom.

And, I ate the sprouts for some time but I dont like them either 

[MikeDC]

That is the problem with all plant based supplements. If you take a little, it has minimal good effects. If you take a lot, it has significant off target effects. The only supplements that work are molecules already in your body like Ubiquinol and NR.

[Harkijn]

@Nate and Sthira: Please do not take this bait. You have made your points eloquently.

[TMNMK]

Anyway, happy fucking Monday.

 

I'm about to make you hate Monday worse. As well as Oakman et al - perhaps we need a cruciferous personal experience thread for the blather I'm about to post. I'm on Day 3 of eating my own home-grown sprouts (so proud)! I must be one lucky SOB (well I know I am, but that's beside the point). I LOVE BROCCOLI SPROUTS! A mild radish taste in a fresh, crunchy package. Happy fucking Monday

[sthira]

I LOVE BROCCOLI SPROUTS!

I love them, too, and I love with all caps enthusiasm. I grow them, I eat them, I attempt to share a love no one understands. Not even politely. In fact, I grew so many unclaimed sprouts on my stoop that I couldn't possible eat them, or give them, please have a wad, to the neighborly giants who prefer cheese fries and Sprite. With sprout overload -- what to do? So I braided several 10-meter ropes, and they're sprout-strong. I'm hanging ropes at night from building to building, and soon I'll swing like a ghetto Tarzan over the streets and under the moon, inside and out, powered by sprout.

[TMNMK]

I love them, too, and I love with all caps enthusiasm. I grow them, I eat them, I attempt to share a love no one understands. Not even politely. In fact, I grew so many unclaimed sprouts on my stoop that I couldn't possible eat them, or give them, please have a wad, to the neighborly giants who prefer cheese fries and Sprite. With sprout overload -- what to do? So I braided several 10-meter ropes, and they're sprout-strong. I'm hanging ropes at night from building to building, and soon I'll swing like a ghetto Tarzan over the streets and under the moon, inside and out, powered by sprout.

 

 Sthira the Super Sprout, my new Marvel hero!

[Castiel]

Maybe, but there's little proof of this and no rationale. If sulforaphane in cruciferous veggies, specifically broccoli because it's the plant with glucoraphanin, is the active ingredient giving such good results in numerous studies in several areas, then what would be the difference, specifically, of taking it in a supplement vs taking it in a plant? What's the actual difference? Why must sulforaphane come in plant form for it to be any good? 

 

This is the question that I can't seem to get an answer for when it comes to people criticizing the use of supplements. The arguments are that it's not the same thing and could be dangerous, and the other is that people will take supplements so they can eat badly. To both arguments I ask, what's the difference?

 

I can understand the latter argument because the main issue is getting soluble fiber, probably to feed the microbiome that's making everybody healthy from eating well. I can also understand the issue of bioavailability, because fats are important as carriers for vitamins.

 

However, you can't say: "Well this particular vitamin (let's say vitamin E, alpha tocopherol alone btw), was dangerous when supplemented because it actually raised mortality rates." and then conclude that this must be the case for ALL supplements and that *supplements* in particular are dangerous and a problem. No, first off, the vitamin E studies were with alpha tocopherol in isolation. In other words no gamma. Secondly, every single supplement is different and must be evaluated on its own.

 

What if I freaking hate broccoli? I do btw, it's awful and broccoli sprouts taste even worse and not only that but they cause an upset stomach. How much sulforaphane is in 100g of broccoli sprouts? 30mg. What was the maximum they used showing the greatest benefit? 60mg. So what if I take 6x BroccoMax (54 mg) daily? How is that different from eating broccoli? What if I take it while drinking down a smoothie containing significant sources of ALA, Omega 9's, 3's and considerable amounts of soluble fiber from various other ground nuts, seeds and greens? 

 

Nobody knows, because nobody's studying this. They're just making up scare stories and claims based on a couple of badly designed and ill considered studies on a single antioxidant.

 

Sprouts, at least fresh sprouts don't taste that bad, they have a grassy taste particularly in a shake.   And you don't have to take a lot, about half a glass of properly prepared sprout shake should have near upper limit of sulforaphane.

 

The cost is also much lower, I bought 1lb of seeds for 25$ and it looks like that should last like 3 months.

[Nate-2004]

Yeah I don't know what it is about my taste buds but fresh or not, they're horrible tasting. So is raw broccoli. It all has this indescribable taste to it, like horribly bitter, if that's even the word for it.

[sthira]

Yeah I don't know what it is about my taste buds but fresh or not, they're horrible tasting. So is raw broccoli. It all has this indescribable taste to it, like horribly bitter, if that's even the word for it.

That's probably genetic, don't beat yourself silly just because you may have inherited more messenger RNA in your taste bud cells. Thank your lineage for sensitivity to cells given more instructions for making bitter tastes bitterer-er. Er, that sensitivity towards possible poisons perhaps enabled your ancestors to avoid those plants and fungi that might have killed them dead.

Again, though: spices used in reasonable amounts, added artfully, can transform your bitterness into another taste that's perhaps enjoyable.

[Nate-2004]

That's probably genetic, don't beat yourself silly just because you may have inherited more messenger RNA in your taste bud cells. Thank your lineage for sensitivity to cells given more instructions for making bitter tastes bitterer-er. Er, that sensitivity towards possible poisons perhaps enabled your ancestors to avoid those plants and fungi that might have killed them dead.

Again, though: spices used in reasonable amounts, added artfully, can transform your bitterness into another taste that's perhaps enjoyable.

 

Are there any spices that can change how broccoli sprouts taste that wouldn't taste weird in either smoothies or just on their own?

[sthira]

Are there any spices that can change how broccoli sprouts taste that wouldn't taste weird in either smoothies or just on their own?

In smoothies I'm not sure. But that'd be experimental fun for you. I find strawberries are so strong in smoothies they tend to block bitter tastes. I don't think I need boatloads of sprouts broccoli to derive benefits. So maybe try just a small handful in a smoothie?

As far as cooked broccoli, I steam mine, and I think you've mentioned in your stack that you buy garlic pills. There's an idea; garlic, black pepper, olive oil on steamed Brussels sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, collard greens (all of our cruciferous friends) are pretty darned tasty. I defy anyone not to enjoy my curried broccoli steamed, with olive oil. Cooking can be surprisingly fun, creative and easy given a few common inexpensive tools. With a solid portable steamer, I literally need no kitchen, just water, electricity, and plant power.

Edited by sthira, 14 April 2018 - 03:11 PM.

[Harkijn]

Once again a very inspiring post sthira!

Allow me to add a delicious variation: when I steam my crucifers I often crumble a vegetarian stock cube (somehow I think that's a UK term only, but I know no US name...) and sprinkle a bit of it on the crucifer and most of it in the water. Once on the plate a few drips of balsamico vinegar give some refinement to the taste.

[TMNMK]

Are there any spices that can change how broccoli sprouts taste that wouldn't taste weird in either smoothies or just on their own?

 

Nate, I don't know if it tastes any better but I know at least a few studies coming out of Johns Hopkins used some mixture of BSE in water, pineapple juice, and lime juice! I don't have a reference on-hand, but that may be something with which to experiment. I have not tried it that way as I have (fortunately or unfortunately) been blessed by what I believe to be damaged taste buds and sense of smell due to many years in a lab. So for me broccoli sprouts are great, but if the taste is abhorrent for you that might be something to try as well. Also, I have here brown mustard seed powder to sprinkle on it, but I have not been courageous enough to try it.

Edited by TMNMK, 14 April 2018 - 07:25 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I have no idea what BSE is but I know lime or lemon juice has almost no effect on the taste since I use that already.

[TMNMK]

I have no idea what BSE is but I know lime or lemon juice has almost no effect on the taste since I use that already.

 

Sorry, broccoli sprout extract (BSE). Sorry to hear that. Then perhaps one of those suggestions from Harkijn or Sthira might work.

Edited by TMNMK, 15 April 2018 - 03:06 PM.

[Harkijn]

We can assume that BSE means Broccoli Sprout Extract. The term is used in the study I link to below. This text describes a long list of 'masking agents' for BSE,  though not for broccoli sprouts. The combo lime/ginger scores high in their tests. The tests were in China, so results do not always automatically apply to other parts of the world...

https://www.scienced...352364615300067

Edited by Harkijn, 15 April 2018 - 03:22 PM.

[TMNMK]

Two quick things:

 

#1 It seems the acronym BSE could refer to Sprout or Seed extract depending on the study.

 

#2 There is a risk of pathogen consumption from home sprouting. This study is interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC154497/

I haven't read it fully, but wanted to get it out there just in case anyone is feeling queezy after ingesting their home-grown sprouts. It would appear on brief glance that a procedure might go as follows:

 

1. During the initial bathe of your seeds, add some (how much?) mustard seed powder to the mix to hopefully kill bacteria on the surface of the seeds.

2. Once you birth your sprouts from their jars and have washed off the shells, let them sit around in room temperature water mixed with some portion (how much?) of mustard seed powder for half a day.

 

I haven't tried it yet, but wanted to get other peoples thoughts, or if anyone has a better method of removing pathogens prior to ingestion. 

Edited by TMNMK, 18 April 2018 - 01:56 PM.

[bosharpe]

I'm going to start growing again but to make the consumption more palatable I'm going to start experimenting with mixing in other foods/spices. Is there anything you should avoid mixing in with Broccoli sprouts that might ruin the benefits?