537 replies to this topic

[sthira]

That said, there is too much of a good thing too. I started to follow this procedure and started to feel pretty bad. That's just N=1, but I think I will have to spend some time to calibrate my dose.

Can confirm. I started feeling bummed out by sprouts, man, peculiar, like I was chained to bowling balls by fanaticism; taking two Broccomax a day for a few weeks, that was just too much damned goodness.

So I quit Broccomax (pending more science excitement) and I'll just stick with eating broccoli sprouts, but also I like growing kale sprouts, no doubt kale sprouts have their own secrets unexplored, and sprouted mung beans are nice and crunchy, and alfalfa, radish sprouts = fiery = but careful like Pone says: too much of a good thing can flip at you. Broccoli and radish sprouts, yeah, let us eat some, but then if I eat more and more and then add some unregulated concentrated mix of Jarrow god knows what, I feel upset. Like stomach burning shit. About to puke up sprout acid...

Also I'm addicted to documenting what I eat on cronometer, a mental disease with its own precise psychiatric classification lol and so trying to ALWAYS hit full RDA, well, sprouts just don't seem to add much.

Then there's the risk of homegrowing your very own E. coli O157: H7, and no one fucking wants shiga, man, no one... maybe I just convinced myself to revert back to Broccomax, shit

Rhonda Patrick posted this recently on Instagram: https://www.instagra...=foundmyfitness

If anyone's gonna live to 1,000 it's gonna be Rhonda Patrick's baby: https://mobile.twitt...0452352?lang=en

Has anyone asked what she did with the placenta from that baby, I'm speculating, of course, but there may be a rich blend of glucoraphanin and myrosinase hung up in it:

https://www.theonion...that-1825884082

[pone11]

Can confirm. I started feeling bummed out by sprouts, man, peculiar, like I was chained to bowling balls by fanaticism; taking two Broccomax a day for a few weeks, that was just too much damned goodness.

So I quit Broccomax (pending more science excitement) and I'll just stick with eating broccoli sprouts, but also I like growing kale sprouts, no doubt kale sprouts have their own secrets unexplored, and sprouted mung beans are nice and crunchy, and alfalfa, radish sprouts = fiery = but careful like Pone says: too much of a good thing can flip at you. Broccoli and radish sprouts, yeah, let us eat some, but then if I eat more and more and then add some unregulated concentrated mix of Jarrow god knows what, I feel upset. Like stomach burning shit. About to puke up sprout acid...

 

What kind of symptoms did you have on Broccomax other than stomach acid?    I had the most unusual symptom.  I had been feeling very anabolic the last few weeks, gaining weight (muscle) for the first time in years after a long illness.   "Feeling anabolic" basically means that I could feel muscular strength, some energy in the muscle, and I had a subjective sense of the muscle growing.   After I started brewing Avmacol to increase the sulforaphane dose, within a day of starting to take the higher sulforaphane dose, I got brain fog, a general sense of malaise, and my anabolic feeling completely turned off and became a sense of muscular weakness.   

 

I am hoping that this is just a hormetic overdose of sulforaphane and that within two or three days I will return to baseline.

 

Regarding Rhonda: by my calculations that girl is making between $15K and $30K per month now just from subscribers to her Patreon page.  It must be really nice to make a decent wage just for reading science and making videos.

 

Edited by pone11, 14 June 2018 - 12:37 AM.

[John250]

No, the nitrile enzyme does not deactivate until about 60 centigrade. It survives digestion. That is why they go to the trouble to deactivate it in Broccomax and Avmacol.

The temperature of the body is very close to the target temperature if you process it outside the body. But what is different is the bioabsorption. You get about 35% bioabsorption eating the precursor glucoraphanin in Broccomax / Avmacol, based on Avmacol's studies. You get 70% bioabsorption of sulforaphane. So creating the sulforaphane in a test tube and ingesting it will give you a little more than twice the dose of sulforaphane.

That said, there is too much of a good thing too. I started to follow this procedure and started to feel pretty bad. That's just N=1, but I think I will have to spend some time to calibrate my dose.

They have chewable tabs and encentric coated which is best?
Thanks

[sthira]

What kind of symptoms did you have on Broccomax other than stomach acid?

This:

...a general sense of malaise, and ... muscular weakness....

Like, I don't know, hard to explain well, you explained it well, I just didn't feel like getting out of bed, I'll just stay here in the darkness with my dreams and my cat, or if I do have to roll out of blessed sleep I'd be in no mood to keep walking around holding up my smiling head all day. I mean, I work my body pretty hard, alright, as I'm sure most of us here prolly do, and I'm connected to this thing, and I know when it's off. Malfunctioning lol. Overdoing sprouts is kinda like overdoing fasting, maybe, and like you say, a threshold is reached and suddenly it's too much of a good thing -- yes, yes, yes, ye-no, no, no, then it's certain I gotta quit swallowing sprout pills. It's a personal I feel like shit dynamic: lethargic and weak. Like muscles are saying leave me out of your stupid shit today.

I am hoping that this is just a hormetic overdose of sulforaphane and that within two or three days I will return to baseline.

It was for me, I just shelved the Broccomax for another time, and bounced right back within a few days. In my case, I already know I'm a suggestible person, I'm happy to welcome both placebo and nocebo, so if I think something is making me fall of the beam, then it probably is. The mind is duh-powerful.

Regarding Rhonda...

I just wish she was my mom. There. I said it. I mean I adore my own mother, she's inspiring in ten thousand ways, but can you just imagine being the first born of fucking Rhonda Patrick? Jesus. There's our thousand year old infant right there all cuddled beside RP. I love her, she's amazing, I wish her all the success in the world, and that for her immortal baby, too.

[pone11]

They have chewable tabs and encentric coated which is best?
Thanks

 

If you want to brew sulforaphane in a test tube and then drink that brewed solution, choose the regular form.  I grind that pill to a powder before brewing.  If you want to just swallow a pill, Avmacol claims the enteric form will result in about 15% higher sulforaphane dose in the body.  There is at least one study making the claim the enteric form (not sure if it was Avmacol though) had lower bioavailability.   

 

I have both forms and I use the non-enteric for brewing and the enteric form when I swallow a pill directly.

 

I think going slow would be wise.   I think it would also make a lot of sense to cycle off of this every three days for four days and really pay attention to changes in sense of well being when you are completely free of sulforaphane.   Remember that sulforaphane is basically a kind of hormetic poison/stress.  The body is using it to signal upregulation of antioxidant defenses.   How much poison is too much poison is probably very individual for each person.   If you have poor glutathione status, bad NRF2 genetics, or are in general in poor health, I would have to guess that even small doses might stress you.

[pone11]

Like, I don't know, hard to explain well, you explained it well, I just didn't feel like getting out of bed, I'll just stay here in the darkness with my dreams and my cat, or if I do have to roll out of blessed sleep I'd be in no mood to keep walking around holding up my smiling head all day. I mean, I work my body pretty hard, alright, as I'm sure most of us here prolly do, and I'm connected to this thing, and I know when it's off. Malfunctioning lol. Overdoing sprouts is kinda like overdoing fasting, maybe, and like you say, a threshold is reached and suddenly it's too much of a good thing -- yes, yes, yes, ye-no, no, no, then it's certain I gotta quit swallowing sprout pills. It's a personal I feel like shit dynamic: lethargic and weak. Like muscles are saying leave me out of your stupid shit today.


It was for me, I just shelved the Broccomax for another time, and bounced right back within a few days. In my case, I already know I'm a suggestible person, I'm happy to welcome both placebo and nocebo, so if I think something is making me fall of the beam, then it probably is. The mind is duh-powerful.

 

Our symptoms are pretty well aligned actually.  That's significant that you felt this as muscular weakness, albeit you retained a lot more mental energy than I did.     Let's see if others here report an overdose of sulforaphane creating a symptom of muscular weakness.  We might be discovering an important biomarker to establish a good dosing.

 

I am good at acknowledging placebo effects, but in this case I went from the ability to do powerful muscular contractions to an inability to do that very quickly, and if anyone has felt the sensation of being anabolic before, that is not something you imagine or create from the mind.  It's an extremely physiological state that lives inside the muscles and informs the brain, not vice versa.

[sthira]

...Remember that sulforaphane is basically a kind of hormetic poison/stress.

There -- that's the word I was hunting for : poison. Sorta weakly poisoned by it. Poison Lite. In my hippie universe -- toxic.

[sthira]

Here, find or rediscover your love for watercress all ye pill poppers:

[pone11]

Here, find or rediscover your love for watercress all ye pill poppers:

 

Someone is going to Photoshop an image of Rhonda dressed as a holy figure and caption it "Saint Sulforaphane".

[Castiel]

Not sure if previously posted

 

 

"As scientists, we learned that sulforaphane is maximized when broccoli has been heated 10 minutes at 140 degrees Fahrenheit," said Jeffery. "For the consumer, who cannot readily hold the temperature as low as 140 degrees, that means the best way to prepare broccoli is to steam it lightly about 3 or 4 minutes--until the broccoli is tough-tender."-https://www.scienced...50326114810.htm

 

 

 

4 cups of sprouts supposedly might be enough to reach max safe dose.

 

If steaming for 3 to 4 min or the 10 min thing increases 3 to 4 fold sulforaphane maybe one cup might be near limit.   Add to that that I couldn't refind the reference, but I heard putting it in a blender drastically increased sulforaphane after being let sit for 30+ min, iirc[edit, put reference to blender article at bottom].

 

What I do is steam for 3 minutes, put in room temperature water, and add a bit of ground mustard powder and blend for 30 seconds and let sit for 30 minutes.

 

edit

 

 

“You want to cut it into very small pieces and even blend it,” she told Newsweek. One cancer-fighting way to consume the food is by making broccoli soup. However, you’ll want to add blended raw broccoli first and let it sit for 30 minutes before adding to your soup base.  

Chopping and exposing broccoli to the air allows it to activate the enzyme to promote sulforaphanes. In this study, researchers advise letting the broccoli sit for 90 minutes after chopping and Sherzaia said others have recommended at least 40 minutes.-http://www.newsweek....dy-finds-801712

 

 

I'm not sure, but considering there's a competing enzyme inactivated by cooking I think blending should occur after cooking.   You could cut it or blend it raw and let it sit for 90 min prior to cooking as a lot of sulforaphane would have been created and appears heat resistant.  But the dose should be lower than if you blend after steaming for 3 mins or doing the 10 min thing, as that will inactivate the competing enzyme.

Edited by Castiel, 10 July 2018 - 01:13 AM.

[Harkijn]

These videos are somewhat older now. Just to be fair to Broccomax: they scored so low in sulforaphane because at the time they did not have the proper formulation yet.

[Harkijn]

Just to keep everyone up to date: a recent study finds that SFN blunts the immune reaction of human T Cells. The study abstract was also placed on dr. Patrick's newspage and causes some concern among readers there.

 

I have not read  the full study yet, but I think it worthwile to delve  deeper into this. I hope you will  want to share your thoughts.

 https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30528536

[Nate-2004]

Doubt that's even a bad thing in any case. All the statistical data is still pretty incredible on its own, enough to always keep eating that broccoli. It may be more of a case basis issue, i.e. avoid it if you have this particular infection or disease.

Edited by Nate-2004, 25 December 2018 - 03:32 PM.

[Castiel]

I will add that enteric coated garlic + a vitamin c pill is rumored to boost NO, and apparently packs quite an energy punch.  If it does increase circulation it may aid other compounds and their absorption into the various tissues.

[Harkijn]

I had never heard about slightly acidic electrolyzed  water (SAEW) before, but apparently, at least in China and Japan, it is an accepted way of chasing Ecoli and other bacteria from foodstuffs.

So it's doubly interesting to note the research that treated broccoli sprouts with SAEW and also found that this treatment raised the amount of myrosinase and sulforaphane considerably. 

 

Of course I am not fond of the idea of food being treated with hydrochloric acid however dilute it may be. Would a similar treatment with  diluted vinegar SAEW also raise sulforaphane? Or even simply rising in water with vinegar....

Well anyway, an interesting read....

 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30576129

[Ames]

I get exceptional effects from Jarrow Sulforaphane in isolation, and simple Niacinamide in isolation.

 

It should be noted that I will take sulforaphane if I feel the need to neutralize any slightly negative effect from what I interpret to be an ongoing mitochondrial fission bias induced by the Niacinamide. In other words, I use the Sulforapahne to induce mitochondrial fusion toward neutralizing the Naicinamide effect in general. It seems to work, though when I do this it is always a long time after having taken the Niacinamide

 

If I take the sulforaphane every day, the positive effect seems to build. I am rarely consistent with anything that I take, and so I tend to drop it after a week at the most. But whenever I start it again, the effect returns within a couple of days. The effect seems to last for days, at the least, after stopping.

 

I have only taken low dose niacinamide in single doses spaced out by months. Whenever I do that, I get a consistent result that lasts for months before fading.

 

I would be curious as to the effect of the combination of sulforaphane and niacinamide. Though, with anything that effects mitochondria, I'm always worried about semi-permanent effects that could theoretically neutralize the response of either or both. Which is why I am so conservative with Niacinamide (which also gives it a chance to fully work), which even at that spaced out dose semi-permanently effects how I respond to Excedrin.

Edited by Ames, 24 August 2020 - 07:24 PM.

[Ames]

Just to keep everyone up to date: a recent study finds that SFN blunts the immune reaction of human T Cells. The study abstract was also placed on dr. Patrick's newspage and causes some concern among readers there.

 

I have not read  the full study yet, but I think it worthwile to delve  deeper into this. I hope you will  want to share your thoughts.

 https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30528536

 

You'll often find that to be the case with anything that has a significant anti-inflammatory effect. It's difficult to pharmacologically and long-term reduce felt inflammation without hamstringing the immune response to a degree. This is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on your health and immune status. Factors that suppress (what can be over-active) immunity to a small degree, such as a degree of sunlight exposure, have been linked to incresed longevity. A less reactive immune response will preserve tissue, which is felt by the auto-immune sufferer (for example) as reduced inflammation, but at the same time can make one more prone to infection if vulnerable. Its a balance, and a portion of the population likely suffers from sub clinical (if not clinical) auto immune issues. Though, those that don't likely should be careful in regard to regular immune suppression (ie: watch an over-abundance of sunlight exposure).

 

At the end of life, people suffering with long term auto imune issues, or who have long-term suppressed their immunity, may realize an unavoidable bill that has come due as decompensation could progress. However, there is a quality of life factor during early and mid-life that is priceless (as long as one doesn't take immune suppression too far).

Edited by Ames, 24 August 2020 - 07:39 PM.

[Ames]

Our symptoms are pretty well aligned actually.  That's significant that you felt this as muscular weakness, albeit you retained a lot more mental energy than I did.     Let's see if others here report an overdose of sulforaphane creating a symptom of muscular weakness.  We might be discovering an important biomarker to establish a good dosing.

 

I am good at acknowledging placebo effects, but in this case I went from the ability to do powerful muscular contractions to an inability to do that very quickly, and if anyone has felt the sensation of being anabolic before, that is not something you imagine or create from the mind.  It's an extremely physiological state that lives inside the muscles and informs the brain, not vice versa.

 

I wonder if muscle weakness is a mitochondrial fission rebound effect from too much induced fusion from overly-regular sulforaphane use. Though, I have not experienced it from my (adminttedly brief stints of) sulphoraphane use.

 

Muscle weakness is the specific symptom that I take sulphoraphane to counter, after taking niacinamide (a mito fission inducer). It seems to reliably work toward that end.

Edited by Ames, 24 August 2020 - 07:45 PM.

[Gal220]

LEF has some articles on increasing AMPK - link1-2018 , link2-2014

 

"Although rapamycin has consistently demonstrated lifespan extension in animal models, mainly by delaying cancer onset,5 such a powerful drug needs more human studies to ensure against potential risks.

 

There are natural methods to improve autophagy that include supplementation with lithium and NAD+ precursors like nicotinamide riboside.7-9

 

One of the safest and most effective methods to optimize autophagy is by activating an enzyme in our cells called AMPK"

 

 

Their AMPK activator uses 500mg of Hesperidin and 450mg of Actiponin® gynostemma

[Engadin]

.

 

 

 

How To Increase Sulforaphane in Broccoli Sprouts by ~3.5-fold:

 

 

 

 

.

[Brian Valerie]

Well, friends, I'd like to offer some admittedly weak, preliminary evidence that just might be informative for those of us who are trying to determine an optimal cycling protocol for sulforaphane and NAD+ precursors. Some time ago, I spoke by phone with Monica, the Chief Operating Officer of ALIVEBYSCIENCE (previously ALIVEBYNATURE).  She informed me that according to their unpublished data, serum NAD+ levels may remain elevated for up to 72 hours after the last dose of sublingually administered NMN, although ALIVEBYSCIENCE has typically recommended dosing regimens that may be at higher levels than many followers of this thread are taking.  For those of us (respected biologist Josh MItteldorf among us) who believe in taking the majority of our supplements on a cyclical basis so as to diminish any potential homeostatic response, and who accept at least the possibility that sulforaphane and NAD+ precursors may be working at cross purposes at least in regard to their enhancement of mitochondrial fusion (with biogenesis) and mitochondrial fission (with mitophagy) respectively, an alternating type of protocol seems reasonable.  Since it takes about five days to grow a good batch of high sulforaphane yielding broccoli sprouts (I take sulforaphane capsules at the same time), I'm currently taking NMN for five days, then sulforaphane (caps and sprouts) for three days, or 72 hours.  I recognize that the rationale for this protocol is far from strong, and would very much welcome hearing of any reasoning for an alternative protocol.  Hope this might be informative for at least a few of you.

[Brian Valerie]

I'd just like to share some good information (at least I think so) that I learned from yesterday morning's interview of respected sulforaphane researcher Jed Fahey by Rhonda Patrick.  He said that the enzymes produced in response to the hormetic effect of sulforaphane remain at protective levels for about three days after ingestion.  You can learn more about his research at his website:  chemoprotectioncenter.org.  Due to this new and reliable information, I'm adjusting my own protocol so as to go no longer than three days between sulforaphane doses, with some overlap with my NMN dosing.  Just thought you'd all like to know Dr. Fahey's take on it, but I'd very much appreciate hearing anyone else's thoughts.

[JR7]

Another option is to use Sulforaphane and Niacinamide (Nicotinamide)... I used Niacin last year but I did not like it, I need to consume it spaced from the meals, otherwise I feel discomfort if I eat fats or some refined carbohydrate.

PD: For Nrf2 induction Andrographis Paniculata is one of the best herbs out there in doing that job here you have two studies. 
I'm a big fan of intermittent fasting, consuming "supplements" on an empty stomach (fasted state, I skip breakfast) with a cup of tea is a habit for me, apparently Sulforaphane is going to be a new acquisition, for now Grape Seed extract (varicose veins prevention) and Andrographis and Aloe Vera extract (Collagen production) are my breakfast .... and low dose Methylene Blue (10 mg) since it can cross easily the BBB, activates Sirt1 and AMPK.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23146110
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5034653/
 

Hello, 

I’m curious, what is Andrographis generally used for in your regimen? 

[albedo]

So much expertise in this thread on sulphoraphane! Any update on a typical daily intake for effectiveness?

[Keizo]

I wonder if muscle weakness is a mitochondrial fission rebound effect from too much induced fusion from overly-regular sulforaphane use. Though, I have not experienced it from my (adminttedly brief stints of) sulphoraphane use.

 

Muscle weakness is the specific symptom that I take sulphoraphane to counter, after taking niacinamide (a mito fission inducer). It seems to reliably work toward that end.

I can't say I've experienced muscle weakness from broccoli sprouts, seeds or green kale. If anything that stuff has a mild energizing effect for me ((I presume psychological, akin to smelling menthol or eating garlic...)). Haven't used anything sulfurophane related in a while, will try later after stabilizing current protocols.

 

However I have tried some metformin recently, and even with 500mgs instant release before sleep I think I do experience the mildest fatigue from it during the day, in particular feeling sort of like after I've taken a 5 hour slow-paced walk or something like that. Not used it for more than 2 weeks. I haven't done any tests beyond blood glucose (I'm not diabetic, and no signs of hypoglycemia but I'll do more regular testing of that from now on). Not what I consciously had expected from it, but considering my knowledge perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me (I did expect a drop in "performance", vaguely). For now I'll imagine that I'm doing exercise in my sleep. 

[Kentavr]

Quote:

 

“Not every one of us wants to eat 100 grams of raw broccoli every day. In such cases, you can use broccoli in tablets. But, as the constructed studies have built, broccoli in tablets has 5-8 times less bioavailability than fresh natural broccoli. This is because most broccoli dietary supplements are not activated by myrosinase, and therefore primarily depends on the activity of myrosinase from the intestinal microbial flora of an individual. "

 

https://nestarenie.r...iya-zhizni.html

 

Several years ago, I watched videos of Russian researchers working on life extension.

 

They recommend mixing boiled broccoli with fresh radishes to activate myrosinase. Since the radishes are fresh and not heat-treated, myrosinase is there.

 

The resulting salad tastes very unpleasant, but you can supplement this recipe yourself by adding unrefined olive oil, etc.

[Castiel]

 

Quote:

 

“Not every one of us wants to eat 100 grams of raw broccoli every day. In such cases, you can use broccoli in tablets. But, as the constructed studies have built, broccoli in tablets has 5-8 times less bioavailability than fresh natural broccoli. This is because most broccoli dietary supplements are not activated by myrosinase, and therefore primarily depends on the activity of myrosinase from the intestinal microbial flora of an individual. "

 

https://nestarenie.r...iya-zhizni.html

 

Several years ago, I watched videos of Russian researchers working on life extension.

 

They recommend mixing boiled broccoli with fresh radishes to activate myrosinase. Since the radishes are fresh and not heat-treated, myrosinase is there.

 

The resulting salad tastes very unpleasant, but you can supplement this recipe yourself by adding unrefined olive oil, etc.

 

 

Yeah I discontinued the sulforaphane because it is very high maintenance stuff, the sprouts, the steaming, the blending.   I've heard like 6 pills of avmacol might do in terms of adequate quantity, need to research that again, but that gets expensive quick.   And given sprouts are so cheap, It's kind of annoying having to pay a premium for not having to deal with sprout preparation.

Edited by Castiel, 18 May 2021 - 08:33 AM.

[Neurocryo]

I can't say I've experienced muscle weakness from broccoli sprouts, seeds or green kale. If anything that stuff has a mild energizing effect for me ((I presume psychological, akin to smelling menthol or eating garlic...)). Haven't used anything sulfurophane related in a while, will try later after stabilizing current protocols.

 

However I have tried some metformin recently, and even with 500mgs instant release before sleep I think I do experience the mildest fatigue from it during the day, in particular feeling sort of like after I've taken a 5 hour slow-paced walk or something like that. Not used it for more than 2 weeks. I haven't done any tests beyond blood glucose (I'm not diabetic, and no signs of hypoglycemia but I'll do more regular testing of that from now on). Not what I consciously had expected from it, but considering my knowledge perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me (I did expect a drop in "performance", vaguely). For now I'll imagine that I'm doing exercise in my sleep. 

Strange, I’ve noticed muscle fatigue recently and I eat a small snack bag of raw broccoli every afternoon.  I thought I was just getting older.