537 replies to this topic

[Heisok]

Thanks tintinet.

 

 

http://tim.blog/

 

 

Well worth a listen as Dr. Patrick talks for over 2 hours. Tim Ferriss allows the mp3 file to be downloaded. . Nate, she talks extensively about water only fasting, intermittent fasting and time restricted feeding starting at 13 minutes in. 

She practices time restricted feeding which she counts only water as being allowed. She explains why. She is taking NR at a dose of 125 mg, if I heard correctly.

 

On the subject of NR/Sulforophane, I started taking them separated by about 6 hours. This is based on Turnbuckle's work related to Fission/Fusion, and the following study which I discovered about Sulforophane and Fusion.

 

Sulforophane: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5126150/

 

"These results indicate that SFN treatment causes mitochondrial fusion independent of the canonical KEAP1-Nrf2-ARE pathway and led us to interrogate whether SFN directly affects components of the mitochondrial fission or fusion machinery.

In summary, we have identified a novel, cytoprotective function for the clinically-relevant compound SFN. In addition to activating the master anti-oxidant transcription factor Nrf2, SFN promotes mitochondrial and peroxisomal fusion, and this effect is independent of Nrf2. The mechanism underlying this phenomenon involves a reduction in the function of the GTPase Drp1, the primary mediator of mitochondrial and peroxisomal fission. A major consequence of SFN-mediated mitochondrial fusion is that cells become resistant to the toxic effects of the apoptosis inducer staurosporine. This additional cytoprotective action of SFN could be of particular clinical utility in the numerous neurodegenerative diseases for which age is the leading risk factor (e.g., Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's Disease, Age-related Macular Degeneration) as these maladies have been associated with apoptosis and reduced levels and/or dysregulation of Nrf2 [35], [36], [48]. Together, these data demonstrate that the cytoprotective properties of SFN extend beyond activation of the KEAP1-Nrf2-ARE system and warrant further studies given the current use of this agent in multiple clinical trials."

Edited by Heisok, 07 May 2017 - 09:33 PM.

[Douglas Woytuik]

From the OP--

 

Now, I propose that if we were to ask researchers to study any anti-aging combination, it should be Sulforaphane and Nicotinamide Riboside. The combination could potentially produce EXTREMELY synergistic results.

 

 

I think it's likely to be the opposite. NR and other NAD+ precursors get the mitochondrial quality control system running, whereby dysfunctional mitochondria are tagged, engulfed by lysosomes, and digested. To fit them into lysosomes they must be fissioned into the smallest possible size, and then later they fuse together to produce mitochondria that are more robust than before. So anything that prevents fission is going to reduce or eliminate the effectiveness of NR. And sulforaphane is a promoter of "hyperfusion," which means they are even larger than normal. Thus these supplements are working at cross purposes.

 

See this paper--

 

We demonstrate here that SFN [Sulforaphane] induces mitochondrial hyperfusion . . .

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5126150/

 

 

 

So unless someone is getting amazing results with this combination (I doubt it), I wouldn't take them at the same time. And I wouldn't take either supplement all the time.

 

 

Picking up on this post, it would seem that cycling between NR say for 5days, 2 days washout and 5 days SFN might be synergistic. First the Sirtuins break down the bad via mitophagy, then the smaller remaining mitochondria are aided in fuseing by the SFN. 

 

Will this help induce mitogenesis aswell?

 

Can anyone else think of a good alternating cyclical partner to those two chemicals?
 

[Oakman]

I'm doing a daily CR/IF cycling and have been for a couple weeks, i.e., the plan has been to limit to an 8 hour period of the majority of food intake beginning with. 500 mg NR at 6am, wait an hour+ before breakfast, then finish eating any lunch before 2pm. That's the end of major protein/fat/carb intake and in total limited to approx 1200-1500 calories

 

At 5-6pm I do a "greens' mix with a smoothy of broccoli extract 500mg / Sulforaphane .8mcg / Broccoli Sprout Extract 1 g / Plant Head greens mix (seeds/sprouts/mature plants) 10-20 g / other herbs 1.2 g, all blended with a few blackberries for better flavor.  Approx 12-13 hrs later, it begins again in the morning.

 

I've been on this for a couple weeks, no ill effects, feels great, possible benefits (and I say that because I take multiple other mostly plant based supplements during the food period of the day, as so... hard to pin down what effects are from what) are more energy, less need for any rest time, increasing muscle mass, abdominal fat loss, increased mental clarity and general well being.

[tintinet]

Cruciferous vegetable intake is inversely associated with lung cancer risk among current nonsmoking men in the Japan public health center study

https://www.mdlinx.c.../05/12//7124096

[j87]

To those opposed to eating sprouts, I thought of a way that might make consuming sulforaphane easier. In the rhonda patrick interview, Dr. Fahey mentioned that when you freeze sprouts, it breaks down the cells so need to make sure to get all the juice into the blender along with the sprouts, because the juice will contain sulforaphane. It occurred to me that one could possibly drink just the juice and discard the sprouts. Upon drinking the juice, it tastes potent, but I can't tell how potent it is compared to the the whole sprouts. Blending fresh sprouts seems to be more potent (made my stomach hurt), but blending is a chore.

 

My routine:

1.scoop several tablespoons of seeds into mason jar (make batches in bulk to save time).

2. pour heated water and/or heated hydrogren pyroxide over seeds to kill any possible ecoli (this paper recommends heating at 140F for 5 minutes http://anrcatalog.uc...u/pdf/8151.pdf)

3.Let grow for 3 - 4 days (sufloraphane content shown to peak at 2-3 days, also I don't like the sprouts to get too big)

4. Pour 168F water on the sprouts for 10 mins to dissolve EPS and increase sulforaphane, also to kill any bacteria that could survive.

measure out how much you want per serving, put your desired amount into ziplock baggies and freeze.

5.Once you let your baggie thaw, squish the sprouts with your hands (maybe even use something to smash them if you like), then pour out the juice out in a cup, mix with whatever juice you want.

[jjnz]

Interesting, I start a fresh batch each day, on day 5 I chew (well) a whole mason jar, no heating, no freezing. I take first thing on empty stomach with NR.
I can't stand the taste of them blended, even with water kefir. They need mechanical damage though so if chewing is an issue you could crush them without mixing with water

Edited by jjnz, 27 May 2017 - 06:55 AM.

[j87]

Interesting, I start a fresh batch each day, on day 5 I chew (well) a whole mason jar, no heating, no freezing. I take first thing on empty stomach with NR.
I can't stand the taste of them blended, even with water kefir. They need mechanical damage though so if chewing is an issue you could crush them without mixing with water

 

My understanding was if you freeze them, it does the same thing as blending due to ice breaking down the cells (the mechanism is described better in the rhonda patrick interview). 

Edited by j87, 30 May 2017 - 05:06 AM.

[Richard McGee]

 

From the OP--

 

Now, I propose that if we were to ask researchers to study any anti-aging combination, it should be Sulforaphane and Nicotinamide Riboside. The combination could potentially produce EXTREMELY synergistic results.

 

 

I think it's likely to be the opposite. NR and other NAD+ precursors get the mitochondrial quality control system running, whereby dysfunctional mitochondria are tagged, engulfed by lysosomes, and digested. To fit them into lysosomes they must be fissioned into the smallest possible size, and then later they fuse together to produce mitochondria that are more robust than before. So anything that prevents fission is going to reduce or eliminate the effectiveness of NR. And sulforaphane is a promoter of "hyperfusion," which means they are even larger than normal. Thus these supplements are working at cross purposes.

 

See this paper--

 

We demonstrate here that SFN [Sulforaphane] induces mitochondrial hyperfusion . . .

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5126150/

 

 

 

So unless someone is getting amazing results with this combination (I doubt it), I wouldn't take them at the same time. And I wouldn't take either supplement all the time.

 

 

Picking up on this post, it would seem that cycling between NR say for 5days, 2 days washout and 5 days SFN might be synergistic. First the Sirtuins break down the bad via mitophagy, then the smaller remaining mitochondria are aided in fuseing by the SFN. 

 

Will this help induce mitogenesis aswell?

 

Can anyone else think of a good alternating cyclical partner to those two chemicals?
 

 

 

I've been cycling fission/fusion. For simplicity I stick to a one week schedule. The latest iteration looks like this:

 

Day 1, & 2: (Fission) - 2 gm nicotinamide + 5 gm ribose + 200mg NR, exercise 1 hour later

Day 3, 4, & 5: (Fusion) - 5-10 gm stearic acid + 2-4 gm ascorbic acid + 20 gm PQQ + 2 caps BroccoMax

Day 6 & 7 Rest

 

There is an ongoing question regarding the efficacy of NR versus NAM + Ribose, so I'm just hedging my bets and doing both. My current plan is to follow this protocol for two months. I will then stop and evaluate my progress.

 

Edited by Richard McGee, 07 June 2017 - 01:57 AM.

[bosharpe]

 

Would rinsing the final sprouts in a weak solution of bleach kill any harmful bacteria without effecting the sprout quality, taste, or nutritional content?

Yikes bleach!

2

Thank you for the rational warning; while I certainly honor it and acknowledge the risk, I've never had a problem with ecoli and raw sprouts. Fingers and toes crossed. Of course that I've not been sick from sprouts in the past means nothing about the future, and (knowing the way the world works) now that I've bragged that I've never been sick, I'll probably keel over dead tomorrow. Imagine that: killed by sprouts I was eating to stay alive longer: the irony.

Boiling raw sprouts would deactivate the goodies, though. Dr. RP says in the video I linked above that heating water to 60-70 degrees, then pouring it onto raw sprouts, letting them soak for ten minutes or so may help. ?No idea if this is true or not. I do grow my own sprouts, though, and I'm careful very careful indeed.

 

 

Hey man, I've just got into growing my own sprouts and wondered if you'd share/advise your precautions in terms of preventing nasty bacteria etc when sprouting

[Mike C]

Sometimes the seeds are contaminated and then when they grow the bacteria spread all over them. Very rare but that is the major cause. According to Dr. Weil. I grow mine outdoors reasoning that the massive micro-environment in my garden will overtake any creepy stuff that might be on the seeds; however most broccoli sprouts are grown indoors with sterile potting soils/mixtures even commercially and this would be very conducive to any bad boys infecting the seeds. Zero competition.

[albedo]

In an earlier post I drew attention to sulforaphane's protection of the pericytes, small compounds that keep our arteries and veins happy. That was about aging in general en specifically diabetic retinpathy....

The protective role of SFN for diabetes (T2DM) seems to confirm:

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=819621

[scooterboy]

Others on here have said that 2 gm nicotinamide + 5 gm ribose is the same as 4 grams of NR and a lot cheaper to take . If this is true why not just take that instead ?

Edited by scooterboy, 25 June 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[Harkijn]

Others on here have said that 2 gm nicotinamide + 5 gm ribose is the same as 4 grams of NR and a lot cheaper to take . If this is true why not just take that instead ?

 

Hi Scooterboy, they fervently hope it does. If you want to read up about the downside of taking large amounts of Nicotinamide (2 grams a day seems rather a lot) start here:

http://aboutnr.com/what-is-nr/

[scooterboy]

I hope taking 2 gm nicotinamide + 5 gm ribose work as well as NR for my wallets sake .

[Nate-2004]

It's not the same thing at all. I think someone posted a link on this thread or another one showing why it's not the same thing.

[scooterboy]

It's not the same thing at all. I think someone posted a link on this thread or another one showing why it's not the same thing.

 

I am going by what Turnbuckle posted a while back . He seems to no what he is talking able on this forum .

[Harkijn]

I would like to emphasize once more that maximizing the effect of SFN does not necessarily mean eating huge amounts of sprouts. Combining useful molecules in your meals gives them  synergistic power.

For instance take a look at this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18841446

I think you will agree that it could  be very useful to take your broccoli(sprouts) together with a watercress salad for PEITC and an amount of kurkuma for Curcumin. Enjoy!

[Nate-2004]

I would like to second Harkijn's emphasis that more sulforaphane does not mean better. In most cases any kind of plant hormetic compound is better in smaller doses. That is the whole idea with regards to hormesis, curcumin, green tea extract, EVOO, etc. I wouldn't even do it every day for the same reason I don't do the sauna or exercise every single day. I don't take antioxidants every day either, even though those are the opposite of hormetic compounds. It's good to take breaks.

[scooterboy]

 

It's not the same thing at all. I think someone posted a link on this thread or another one showing why it's not the same thing.

 

I am going by what Turnbuckle posted a while back . He seems to no what he is talking about on this forum .

 

 

[Heisok]

Maybe you could share the post you are thinking about? I recall, Michael maybe?, pointing out that there are no scientific studies related to the NAM+D-Ribose theory related to NR. Turnbuckle readily admitted that there was not, and we all know that given these are readily available, and non patent-able that there may never me.

 

 My understanding is that the lack of scientific proof for something is just that, and certainly not proof that somebodies thesis is wrong. Richard McGee is using the combination in addition to a dose of NR. Perhaps that is the best course to ensure that all the bases might be covered.

 

Personally, I am not compatible with D-Ribose at this stage, so abandoned any tests of that.

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 28 June 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[scooterboy]

Maybe you could share the post you are thinking about? I recall, Michael maybe?, pointing out that there are no scientific studies related to the NAM+D-Ribose theory related to NR. Turnbuckle readily admitted that there was not, and we all know that given these are readily available, and non patent-able that there may never me.

 

 My understanding is that the lack of scientific proof for something is just that, and certainly not proof that somebodies thesis is wrong. Richard McGee is using the combination in addition to a dose of NR. Perhaps that is the best course to ensure that all the bases might be covered.

 

Personally, I am not compatible with D-Ribose at this stage, so abandoned any tests of that.

 

 

Nicotinamide Riboside and C60 Olive oil dosage help tread In C60 forum .  Post 15

 

[Heisok]

Sorry Scooterboy, I should have indicated Nate, but I try to quote less as I have had quotes taken out of posts with my ID as having done it, so am reluctant.

[Nate-2004]

Maybe you could share the post you are thinking about? I recall, Michael maybe?, pointing out that there are no scientific studies related to the NAM+D-Ribose theory related to NR. Turnbuckle readily admitted that there was not, and we all know that given these are readily available, and non patent-able that there may never me.

 

 My understanding is that the lack of scientific proof for something is just that, and certainly not proof that somebodies thesis is wrong. Richard McGee is using the combination in addition to a dose of NR. Perhaps that is the best course to ensure that all the bases might be covered.

 

Personally, I am not compatible with D-Ribose at this stage, so abandoned any tests of that.

 

The post begins somewhere around here.

[Heisok]

Thanks Nate, that is exactly what I recall, so I stand by my position.  My understanding is that the lack of scientific proof for something is just that, and certainly not proof that somebodies thesis is wrong

 

 

[Harkijn]

Michael also calls it  'mechanistic speculation' and that is what it is. Anyway, there are specialized NAM +Ribose threads for this.

Here we are concerned with NR (and SFN) and I like to mention again that taking NAM by the grams daily is said to be a SIRT2 inhibitor. Since NR is thought to be an activator of all Sirtuins you may be counteracting the positive actions of NR. Especially if you consider that all SIRTs are interrelated. Don't throw your money in a black hole, because whatever gets into that, never comes back.

[Turnbuckle]

Michael also calls it  'mechanistic speculation' and that is what it is. Anyway, there are specialized NAM +Ribose threads for this.

Here we are concerned with NR (and SFN) and I like to mention again that taking NAM by the grams daily is said to be a SIRT2 inhibitor. Since NR is thought to be an activator of all Sirtuins you may be counteracting the positive actions of NR. Especially if you consider that all SIRTs are interrelated. Don't throw your money in a black hole, because whatever gets into that, never comes back.

 

The suppression of sirtuins is temporary--

 

 

Nicotinamide is an inhibitor of SIRT1 in vitro, but can be a stimulator in cells.

 

Nicotinamide (NAM), a form of vitamin B3, plays essential roles in cell physiology through facilitating NAD+ redox homeostasis and providing NAD+ as a substrate to a class of enzymes that catalyze non-redox reactions. These non-redox enzymes include the sirtuin family proteins which deacetylate target proteins while cleaving NAD+ to yield NAM. Since the finding that NAM exerts feedback inhibition to the sirtuin reactions, NAM has been widely used as an inhibitor in the studies where SIRT1, a key member of sirtuins, may have a role in certain cell physiology. However, once administered to cells, NAM is rapidly converted to NAD+ and, therefore, the cellular concentration of NAM decreases rapidly while that of NAD+ increases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28417163

 

 

And were it otherwise, then NR would suppress Sirtuins as well, as NR has to be broken down into NAM + ribose before it can be absorbed. This is the case in rats, and there has been no publication showing otherwise in humans that I am aware of--

 

Digestion and Absorption of NAD by the Small Intestine of the Rat

 

Perfused or intact intestine rapidly hydrolyzed NMN to nicotinamide riboside, which accumulated, but was not absorbed. It was slowly cleaved by an enzyme associated with the mucosal cells to nicotinamide, which was the major if not the only labeled compound absorbed.

 

http://nadh.wiki/wp-...-of-the-Rat.pdf

 

 

 

So taking N+R is equivalent to taking predigested NR, or conversely, NR is a slow acting form of N+R.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 29 June 2017 - 02:26 PM.

[Harkijn]

I once more remind everybody that this thread is not about NAM.

Those who want to read up on why NR is thought to be the best option, may want to take a look here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...mice and humans

[Turnbuckle]

I once more remind everybody that this thread is not about NAM.

Those who want to read up on why NR is thought to be the best option, may want to take a look here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...mice and humans

 

 

So? Why would it make a difference if you take NR or N+R if they both become NR? What is the fear of discussing this?

[lourdaud]

What's the cheapest and simplest way to get sulforaphane? Any supplement? Or through sprouts?

[goboating]

 

What's the cheapest and simplest way to get sulforaphane? Any supplement? Or through sprouts?

 

The Super Sprout Broccoli Sprout Powder seems to go close to 50mg/day for $45 per month. It doesn't taste great compared to fresh sprouts though.