31 replies to this topic

[TheVP]

I am going to be doing a tooth remineralization protocal

 

Among this I will be taking the following

100mcg K2-MK7

15mg K2-MK4

Boron (amount undecided)

5,000iu D3

NOW's Bone Strength 

 

Practices will include brushing teeth with a mix of coconut oil and baking soda. I am considering to ground up organic egg shells assuming I can mix it down to a fine powder based on a random web article I found, however I have not found anything truly conclusive that adding calcium into the custom tooth paste will actually help.

 

Another practice I will be doing is wheatgrass juice pulling. This is an alternative to oil pulling with coconut oil that would appear to be more effective with a shorter duration of time needed. I may do coconut oil pulling also simply for the breath effects it offers. Another thing I will be doing is tooth tapping to stimulate micro circulation though the teeth.

 

Last notable thing to mention is I will be eating plenty of carrots every day. This will provide plenty of beta carotene which would increase my vitamin A to help the above vitamin and minerals I am supplementing with

 

Regarding the supplement Bone Strength by NOW. It has a lot of good reviews in general and a very nice profile of ingredients. No verified amazon purchased reviews discuss tooth remineralization but other reviews that are non amazon purchase verified discuss them. I am weary about if those reviews are planted to get people to but it for this purpose. Verified reviews do mention eleimiating tooth pain however. I will see how this full routine does for me over 2 months.

[aconita]

brushing teeth with a mix of coconut oil and baking soda

 

What would be the idea behind that?

 

To me sounds messy enough even without considering that baking soda is not soluble in oil and abrasive if not fully dissolved, in other words would just sand the enamel even further down.

 

Maybe it would be smarter to swish some water with baking soda in it after each meal in order to neutralize any possible acid from food which will help to avoid enamel erosion.

 

Arginine/calcium carbonate (eggs shells) 50/50 added to toothpaste in tiny amounts has been shown to enhance remineralization.

 

Grinding into fine powder eggs shells is feasible but requires at least a good pestle and mortar...and quite a bit of work.

 

LIPUS is effective in promoting remineralization (and not only that).

 

Carrots for teeth?

 

I am not sure...but after all rabbits seems to do quite well with them.

 

 

.

[TheVP]

 

brushing teeth with a mix of coconut oil and baking soda

 

What would be the idea behind that?

 

To me sounds messy enough even without considering that baking soda is not soluble in oil and abrasive if not fully dissolved, in other words would just sand the enamel even further down.

 

Maybe it would be smarter to swish some water with baking soda in it after each meal in order to neutralize any possible acid from food which will help to avoid enamel erosion.

 

Arginine/calcium carbonate (eggs shells) 50/50 added to toothpaste in tiny amounts has been shown to enhance remineralization.

 

Grinding into fine powder eggs shells is feasible but requires at least a good pestle and mortar...and quite a bit of work.

 

LIPUS is effective in promoting remineralization (and not only that).

 

Carrots for teeth?

 

I am not sure...but after all rabbits seems to do quite well with them.

 

 

The vitamin A as a result of the carrots makes up for the lack of a vitamin A supplement. I know about LIPUS but I don't think the LIPUS body massagers are meant for teeth and I would need to do some studying to determine if running it over your cheeks and lips is enough for the ultrasonic waves to make it through the teeth.

 

That's a good tip with baking soda. I've seen that baking soda for white teeth thing thrown around a lot before so it's easy to figure it is safe. I was expecting egg shells to be a greater abrasive if not grounded well enough which would be my big concern there. I've been using coconut oil for brushing my teeth for a few years nows.

[aconita]

There is only one LIPUS unit on the market that I am aware of and it is not a body massager but a bone fracture healing aid since the FDA approves it just for that.

 

I would need to do some studying to determine if running it over your cheeks and lips is enough for the ultrasonic waves to make it through the teeth

 

Yes it does and that very device has been used in research for that purpose, the only drawback is that time under treatment determines the outcome therefore running the transducer over the cheeks result in kind of less than ideal time on each single tooth (or group of teeth) compared to stay still on one spot but still effective and worth.

 

Baking soda in powder form brushed on teeth will whiten them up to a certain degree because of its abrasive action, which is perfectly fine for the purpose of erasing stains some now and then...but as an everyday practice is likely to reduce the enamel thickness, which is the exact opposite of your goal (remineralization).

 

If grinding eggs shells fine enough isn't for you just buy calcium carbonate powder, use sparingly and gently (brushing should be gentle anyway since brushes are abrasive too).

 

I've been using coconut oil for brushing my teeth for a few years nows.

 

Why?

[TheVP]

There is only one LIPUS unit on the market that I am aware of and it is not a body massager but a bone fracture healing aid since the FDA approves it just for that.

 

I would need to do some studying to determine if running it over your cheeks and lips is enough for the ultrasonic waves to make it through the teeth

 

Yes it does and that very device has been used in research for that purpose, the only drawback is that time under treatment determines the outcome therefore running the transducer over the cheeks result in kind of less than ideal time on each single tooth (or group of teeth) compared to stay still on one spot but still effective and worth.

 

Baking soda in powder form brushed on teeth will whiten them up to a certain degree because of its abrasive action, which is perfectly fine for the purpose of erasing stains some now and then...but as an everyday practice is likely to reduce the enamel thickness, which is the exact opposite of your goal (remineralization).

 

If grinding eggs shells fine enough isn't for you just buy calcium carbonate powder, use sparingly and gently (brushing should be gentle anyway since brushes are abrasive too).

 

I've been using coconut oil for brushing my teeth for a few years nows.

 

Why?

 

Most LIPUS devices look like this http://www.naturalhe.../08/lipus2.jpeg

 

You are saying that using this on cheeks and lips will have an effect on teeth? Running it too long on one spot can burn the skin if I am not mistaken so there would be no choice but to keep it moving

 

Reason for using coconut oil to brush teeth is because it works. There is no reason to use that floruide tooth paste and all the other chemicals that are in it. It is enough to get the teeth smooth and clean and it doesn't mess with taste afterwords. It's good for breath as well. I don't see any reason to switch to basic commercial toothpaste at least

 

Only reason I need to do tooth remineralization is because of a sloppy filling between my front teeth from years ago which created crevices around the filling that are just becoming a problem of its own. 

[aconita]

Yes, LIPUS units look like the one linked but the most popular is the exogen 4000 which goes for around 3000$ but is available for much less as second hand on ebay (there is one right now at 29.95$, auction ending in a few hours).

 

LIPUS is Low Intensity Pulsed Ultra Sounds, it means the ultra sounds are of low intensity (about the same as an ultra sounds scan) and pulsed in order to avoid any possible heating of the tissues (which eventually would happen in the deep layers, not on the surface).

 

Therefore what characterize LIPUS is the total absence of heating, in facts the exogen comes with a strap in order to keep the transducer firmly in place on the exact spot which in case of fracture is a hole drilled in the cast.

 

If your issue is localized LIPUS is just the best option available and actually the only one likely to work.

 

https://benthamopen....T/TODENTJ-6-220

 

Reason for using coconut oil to brush teeth is because it works

 

In my opinion it does nothing more than just brushing with water, coconut oil antibacterial action is so mild that the time required for brushing is too short to elicit any effect.

 

The alternative is not just conventional toothpaste but a home made one which serves the scope much more effectively, several formulas available of which hydrogen peroxide is my favorite by far, adding a thickener like xantan gum powder and few drops of peppermint essential oil yields a toothpaste looking and tasting exactly like a commercial one.

 

 

[lunarsolarpower]

One thing I see here that could be a concern is the idea of using the wheatgrass juice when doing pulling. If it is acidic at all, long exposure could result in erosion of your enamel rather than remineralization. Also if you want to remineralize and convert the weak hydroxyapatite of your teeth into the much more erosion resistant fluoroapatite, you should have fluoride, amorphous calcium phosphate, and potentially some casein phosphopeptide as found in the MI Paste+ product. Or you could look for a product containing Novamin. Also you might want to check out products from Carifree. Disclaimer: I am a dentist, but I am not your dentist and I don't know what type of condition you are attempting to reverse.

[TheVP]

One thing I see here that could be a concern is the idea of using the wheatgrass juice when doing pulling. If it is acidic at all, long exposure could result in erosion of your enamel rather than remineralization. Also if you want to remineralize and convert the weak hydroxyapatite of your teeth into the much more erosion resistant fluoroapatite, you should have fluoride, amorphous calcium phosphate, and potentially some casein phosphopeptide as found in the MI Paste+ product. Or you could look for a product containing Novamin. Also you might want to check out products from Carifree. Disclaimer: I am a dentist, but I am not your dentist and I don't know what type of condition you are attempting to reverse.

 

https://i.gyazo.com/...8184c3b22bf.png

 

I took this earlier today. This is what I am looking to fix up hopefully without more fillings. I developed a cavity between my front teeth when I get a got of dorito stuck between my 2 front teeth years ago that I was unable to get out. Eventually a dentist filed down the space between the two teeth with some sandpaper like floss strip and put a filling there. Thing is that it seems like those small cavities are forming along the edges of the filling so it tells me that there were small creases. Why should I expect a further filling to be free of new micro creases?

 

These cavities and also an unclear crater on the left tooth front end happened when I got really sloppy over a previous semester. It at least does not happen with general upkeep but general upkeep alone isn't going to reverse it now. 

 

I have been looking into wheatgrass further to find out if there is any validity to the claims of why it works and what might be missing. For now I only did 1 day so it isn't going to kill me over night.

[zorba990]

Have you measured saliva ph? Your system may be too acidic and bicarbonate or other alkalization strategies may be prudent.
Dry mouth or acidic saliva could rot your teeth all night long while you sleep...

[TheVP]

Have you measured saliva ph? Your system may be too acidic and bicarbonate or other alkalization strategies may be prudent.
Dry mouth or acidic saliva could rot your teeth all night long while you sleep...

 

I didn't know about measuring saliva ph

 

I did wake up with a really dry mouth this morning. Do you suppose that means the wheatgrass is counter productive for me at least?

[zorba990]

Have you measured saliva ph? Your system may be too acidic and bicarbonate or other alkalization strategies may be prudent.
Dry mouth or acidic saliva could rot your teeth all night long while you sleep...

I didn't know about measuring saliva ph

I did wake up with a really dry mouth this morning. Do you suppose that means the wheatgrass is counter productive for me at least?

I'm not really familiar with wheatgrass pulling, but oil pulling with coq10 is a staple for me. Dry mouth can be from lots of things but I believe that lack of saliva flow is detrimental to tooth health in general. Oil pulling is usually done first thing in the am on an empty stomach. Pulling to hard can cause tmj or dry mouth for me. The idea is swishing not hard pulling in my opinion.

[ta5]

You could try a toothpaste with NovaMin. I think it's only in particular Sensodyne toothpastes from outside the US. I get it from Europe.

 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I am very interested in the idea that vitamin K2 can regrow teeth. Some other user mentioned it on here and I thought it would make sense. The notion that we need to go to a dentist for our teeth seems ridiculous, obviously there is some way the body repairs teeth like it does with so many other vital things, but probably this repair mechanism was lost or degraded or whatever from dna mutations.

 

Anyway, I'm wondering how you can take 15mg of vitamin K2-MK4? Even a tiny dosage of 100mcg of K2-MK4 gave me signs of overcoagulation, dizziness, fatigue, numbness in fingers, etc. Other users have reported same experiences both from MK4 and MK7. Some report no side-effects from either of those.

Also, don't you need to take vitamin K2 with not only vitamin D but also vitamin A, since excessive consumption of one may lead to a deficiency of the two others?

[Danail Bulgaria]

... obviously there is some way the body repairs teeth like it does with so many other vital things, but probably this repair mechanism was lost or degraded or whatever from dna mutations.

....

 

Sharks periodically change their teeth. Their older set is falling off, and a new set of tetth grows on its place.

 

We, people do the same only once with changing the deciduous teeth with the permanent teeth.

You can speculate, that we have had the ability to grow new teeth periodically through our entire life, just like the sharks do it, but we have lost that ability for one reason or another. To tell the true I have been thinking this to myself several times. But if you dont have a scientific proof this remains only a speculative theory. The tooth conspiracy   lol.

[Aurel]

 

... obviously there is some way the body repairs teeth like it does with so many other vital things, but probably this repair mechanism was lost or degraded or whatever from dna mutations.

....

 

Sharks periodically change their teeth. Their older set is falling off, and a new set of tetth grows on its place.

 

We, people do the same only once with changing the deciduous teeth with the permanent teeth.

You can speculate, that we have had the ability to grow new teeth periodically through our entire life, just like the sharks do it, but we have lost that ability for one reason or another. To tell the true I have been thinking this to myself several times. But if you dont have a scientific proof this remains only a speculative theory. The tooth conspiracy   lol.

 

 

It is neither a theory nor a conspiracy, none of our evolutionary ancestors or animal cousins have the ability to regrow teeth - and thus humans certainly never had it, too. That doesnt include the ability to repair minor damages. It seems that the body is not prepared to handle the amount of sugar, acids, etc. which we now throw at him on a daily basis.

I wonder if I have a single tooth left which has not been repaired by dentist, even so I have a normal dental cleaning regime. It is safe to assume that I had a major Vitamin D deficiency due to lifestyle my whole adult life. Maybe that contributed?

[Danail Bulgaria]

Oitty. I hoped we to have had this ability lol

 

Yes, you may have had some deficiency while the tooth tissues have been mineralizing. It depends of the severity of the vitamin D absence. The dental term is rachitis teeth. That kind of teeth are more easily damaged by microorganisms - true.

 

You are also right for the tiny ability to repair minor damages - it is called (normal or natural) remineralisation - minerals from the saliva embed in the enamel and repair some micro cracks, but it is so slow, and in so small size of repairment, that it is not practical. This remineralization cant defeat even the normal wear and tear of the teeth surface due to eating.

[aconita]

Mammalians aren't usually polyphyodonts and never were but there are some exceptions, crocodilia are more interesting polyphyodonts examples than sharks since their teeth are much more similar to ours.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Polyphyodont

[Mind_Paralysis]

Mammalians aren't usually polyphyodonts and never were but there are some exceptions, crocodilia are more interesting polyphyodonts examples than sharks since their teeth are much more similar to ours.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Polyphyodont

Fascinating... since crocodilia are semi-closely related to Dinosauria, and hence birds as well, could this imply that Dinosauria also have this feature of polyphodontism? It would seem like a rather useful feature, for the flesh-eating dinosaurs to gain dominance over the flesh-eating mammals during the Jurassic age.

 

(of course, disregarding the fact that apparently dinosaurs, and birds, have been proven to somehow HEAL BONES much faster than mammals - not sure why that is... could it have something to do with their ability to produce eggs? More efficient mineral metabolism - dinosauria lungs are also far more effective than mammals, explaining why flying mammals have trouble doing long migration and high-altitude flying - this limitation not being a factor for birds, hence their dominance of the airways, even though mammals have dominance in everything else these days.

 

Dear GOD! If ever we were to make contact with dinosauria-like intelligent aliens, they would BEAT us SENSELESS, pound for pound, the moment we look twice at them..! +_o )

 

Since birds, with more complex brains and a clear thermoregulated metabolism, should probably be more similar to us mammals, could we by chance, if Dinosaurs have been proven to have polydonthia (dunno' if this is the case...), study birds then, to find out more about how they grow more teeth, and especially how they heal bone faster? Perhaps we can then apply this to ourselves, to biochemical intervention.

 

That would be DAMN NEAT! : )

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 23 February 2017 - 11:06 AM.

[Aeon]

Very interesting post and comments. I have been reading on ways to remineralize teeth and thought on trying some of them.

 

 

 

You are also right for the tiny ability to repair minor damages - it is called (normal or natural) remineralisation - minerals from the saliva embed in the enamel and repair some micro cracks, but it is so slow, and in so small size of repairment, that it is not practical. This remineralization cant defeat even the normal wear and tear of the teeth surface due to eating.

 

From what I understand, the inner part of the tooth (dentin and pulp) can remineralize itself and repair existing damage, provided that the tooth root and blood vessels are healthy, but remineralization of the enamel is more difficult. 

 

 

 

Arginine/calcium carbonate (eggs shells) 50/50 added to toothpaste in tiny amounts has been shown to enhance remineralization.

 

I have seen this research before about remineralization using eggshells:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4413151/

in this one they used extracted teeth though, and the all process of making their 'Egg Shell Powder Solution' seems complex (not DIY), maybe it could still be done in a similar way.

 

There is research on remineralization by fluoride containing toothpastes, I think fluoride is not naturally found in human teeth however. I wonder if remineralization by a substance more closely related to the teeth composition could add extra benefit. 

 

As some people here wrote on coconut oil, I did saw research on the effectiveness of oil pulling in decreasing dental plaque.

(there's one research on this: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4382606/  )

I have been wondering if adding something like fine-ground calcium to the oil could add benefit of remineralization to the process. Probably I would avoid brushing with some powder or baking soda though, indeed sounds like it could be erosive for the teeth. Maybe it could be rinsed like mouthwash, if the calcium is dissolved in the liquid, or just smeared on the teeth for at least a few minutes at a time.

 

I think only if the calcium source is dissolved well enough in the liquid/paste this could work for remineralization. Anyone tried something like that and could comment on how effective it was? 

[aconita]

Backing soda mouthwash after meals is very effective in preventing plaque.

 

As far as I know calcium carbonate is effective in remineralization only if brushed.

 

Coconut oil pulling is somehow effective in plaque reduction because its mild antibacterial proprieties, nothing amazing and a quite tedious process...if one lives on a remote island without access to anything else than coconuts it is definitely a good strategy.

 

 

[adamh]

Xyitol has been known to be good for tooth remineralization. Apparently it works from the outside but taking supplements might be a good thing too. Here is a pubmed study that shows it works better than ordinary remineralization solution for deep levels of tooth enamel.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/14700079/

 

Edited by adamh, 28 April 2017 - 09:27 PM.

[Leni]

Xylitol, yes. 

 

Perhaps nano-Hydroxyapatite too https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28413590

 

And CPP-ACP (Caseinphosphopeptide - amorphes Calciumphosphate) as Lunarsolarpower mentioned https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26863219

[Leni]

Apadent toothpaste apparently contains nano-hydroxyapatite - it is not exactly cheap though, roughly $24 for 120g. Did anyone try this?

Here they compared the remineralizing properties of different toothpaste with and without hydroxyapatite. Apagare (which has partly the same composition as Apadent, and was patented by the same company) is among the toothpastes: http://www.jios.in/a...02;aulast=Singh

 

CPP-ACP may be more effective for tooth remineralization when applied as a mousse (vs used in a toothpaste). http://onlinelibrary...007.00006.x/pdf

I could only find CPP-ACP only in the MI Paste Lunarsolarpower mentioned - also not too cheap :-). But please correct me if I'm wrong and if there are other sources out there.

 

Edited by Lenie, 22 September 2017 - 01:37 AM.

[Aeon]

That's interesting, I have often considered the use of nano-particles particles for remineralization, my main concern though is about the safety regarding to most things containing nano-particles, as serious side effects are apparently well known from the use of nano-particles.

 

I have read quite amazing things about the ability of nano particles of Hydroxyapatite and materials from which the teeth are made to rebuild and perhaps slowly 'regrow' the teeth, even the enamel, with what the natural content of the teeth is.

[aconita]

Nano particles are indeed a possible cause of concerns, generally speaking we already have our own built in remineralization system which works very well, maybe focusing on keeping it working properly would be smarter.

 

For specific issues LIPUS seems one of the most efficient ways of remineralization and with 0 side effects (actually does a bit more than just that but...).

[Moondancer]

I have read quite amazing things about the ability of nano particles of Hydroxyapatite and materials from which the teeth are made to rebuild and perhaps slowly 'regrow' the teeth, even the enamel, with what the natural content of the teeth is.

 

 

 

There are studies concluding the enamel can be rebuilt with nanoparticles of Hydroxyapatite. How much of a concern would using the nano-HAP really be? 

[Leni]

Concerning LIPUS - as Aconita mentioned LIPUS: I emailed the researchers of the University of Alberta involved in most of the LIPUS-studies a few years ago with some questions about their research.

The device they were developing was to be used by people wearing orthodontic braces in order to prevent tooth root resorption, and could only be used in collaboration with the orthodonist, was what they said at that time.  And that the clinical research focused only on preventing teeth root shortening during ortodontic treatment.

 

Of course Aconita seems to refer to a "DIY-LIPUS'-protocol rather, I assume. Which in general seems a smarter approach of course.

However: what I remember from these studies (and I haven't looked into them for a few years,and am not at home and can't look into the studies now so I'm sorry if I'm wrong, however:) was that the tiny LIPUS-device they used was used for 20 minutes per teeth per day. It must not be easy to accomplish something similar yourself targeting every tooth with a DIY-protocol. It would be very interesting to try though.

 

 

Edited by Leni, 22 September 2017 - 11:06 PM.

[aconita]

For general remineralization (whole denture) available (on the market) LIPUS devices (basically only one) aren't very practical for the above mentioned reason but to treat a small area (like 1-4 teeth) is definitely feasible.

 

It would be feasible to treat the whole denture by sliding the transducer back and forth, in this case each tooth would spend less than the standard 20 minutes under treatment, of course.

 

If that will lead to poor results is all to be seen, LIPUS magnitude of results in general seems to be time dependent but it doesn't mean little time yields no results either, everyday treatment for a few months might reveal satisfactory outcomes.

 

From personal experience it seems to accelerate physiological repair processes but unable to rebuilt what can't be physiologically done, for example teeth enamel is constantly eroded and rebuilt, LIPUS can shift to the positive side that process.

 

Alveolar bone once lost can't be rebuilt and LIPUS is unable to change that.

  

[Leni]

I believe in the earliest studies coming from the university of Alberta (around 2006-2010?) dental bone/tissue was regrown in the jaw and part of the teeth themselves ...... in rabbits  . Of course you rightfully perceive these rat/mice/rabbit studies with a certain scepticism in translating them to humans (but allow me to picture for a moment that I have a lot in common with these rabbits).

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aconita]

The concept I am trying to explain has to be grasped.

 

Lets make another example which has nothing to do with this topic but might help to get my point.

 

LIPUS speeds up tissues regeneration, from bones to skin, etc..., this is well established by research.

 

Some processes do naturally occur but for one reason or another not efficiently enough to lead to satisfying results, LIPUS can optimize this.

 

Apply LIPUS to a skin injury, like a cut for example, and it will heal faster and much better.

 

Apply LIPUS to a wrinkle or sagged skin and will do nothing.

 

The difference is the cut would have healed anyway, the wrinkle doesn't disappear by itself, the mechanisms underlying its formation are too deep and compromised, there is not much to speed up or optimize there.

 

Tooth enamel and osteoblasts are regenerating themselves anyway, LIPUS optimize the process, especially when for some reason the process is hindered, alveolar bone (the thin layer of bone surrounding teeth) isn't able to regenerate by itself once lost, it needs other interventions which include some sort of scaffolding (an artificial intervention), in that case LIPUS likely will enhance the outcomes but by itself (without an artificial intervention) isn't able to do much since the process isn't just there to start with, there is nothing to optimize.

 

It might seem weird in some way since it silences about 100 genes and activates about as many but....   

 

Therefore in this case what seen with rabbits will apply to humans too (has been done in beagle dogs too, if only for that matter) but we have to be careful in understanding about the whats and hows.

 

In other words LIPUS will help efficiently enamel remineralization, possibly (and maybe with the help of other interventions) even refilling a cavity but receding gums because of bone loss is not going to be reversed (without a surgical implant of an appropriate scaffolding).