43 replies to this topic

[Paul Idol]

Paul, you used bone as an analogy to butress your argument that cell division is needed. It's a horrible analogy and does not fit at all. I never said bone wasn't alive, I said it was a mineral with the living parts being the osteoclasts and osteoblasts. Yes, there is a marrow too. The part that provides strength is the mineral part.

opales, it has been shown that neurons do divide. Doctors used to think they never did but that was found to be false. Telomeres shorten each time a cell divides. When they are gone then some of the dna is clipped off when a cell divides. We don't know that telomere shortening is the cause of aging but it may be one cause. There is a lot we don't know yet.

How do stem cells get into the brain to differentiate if that's what they do? Isn't that just a theory?

Xanadu-

Bone is not "a mineral with the living parts being the osteoclasts and osteoblasts". That is simply incorrect — and fundamentally so. I'm not, however, going to debate the nature of bone with you anymore, because if this thread and the various R-ALA threads are any guide, you don't seem to debate, you just repeat yourself. If you'd like to prove me wrong, by all means please do so.

I used bone as an analogy because it's a particularly elegant instance of continual breakdown and renewal and the importance of maintaining a proper balance between the two, but as I pointed out, ongoing breakdown and renewal occur in many bodily systems, and we are now discovering that the brain does in fact, contrary to prior belief, renew itself, so my reasonable and well-founded speculation is that we should strive to maintain enough renewal to balance whatever breakdown occurs. Frankly, I'd think that would be stunningly self-evident.

Opales has now TWICE supported my initial statement about stem cells with links and citations. Are you going to continue to ignore those posts and just repeat your argument about mitosis?

And finally, to recapitulate one last time, I'm not arguing that low-dose lithium orotate is the be-all and end-all of brain support nutrients or that we should push neurogenesis as hard as we can. I am, however, suggesting that it seems like a very promising nutrient, stating that it makes sense to supplement with a little because of the horrid state of our soils and the wretchedly nutrient-poor quality of our food supply, and pointing out that it seems clear that we need to stimulate some neurogenesis to offset "normal" (i.e. customary in modern conditions) losses.

-Paul

[xanadu]

opales wrote:

"And, as I said, when neurons start dividing (eg. Alzheimer's), they die."

Alzhiemers is not caused by dividing neurons nor does alzheimers cause neurons to divide. It is partly a result of plaque that forms in the brain. The neurons die, they don't divide. I'm not sure where you got your info on that.

From your quote:

"Another intriguing possibility is that the changes are the result of new neurons going to the region."

There are lots of intriguing possibilities. That is a far cry from proven science. How would stem cells migrate from one part of the brain to another? Maybe they do, I dont know for sure and neither does anyone else at this point. It's all speculation.

Paul, there is nothing wrong with your speculations either. However, neurons dying and being replaced either by division or the speculated about and not proven stem cell replacement is not a wonderful thing. In bone, tissue replacement is needed to keep the bone strong. In brains, it means we lose memory at the very least. Losing neurons is not a good thing.

It's nice that opales agrees with your theory about stem cells. Stem cell research is an exciting new field. It is also unproven particularly the part about stem cells in the brain. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's a theory and now we need to find some evidence to butress it or disprove it. Maybe some day they'll give you an injection of stem cells cultured from your body and it will rejuvenate every organ. Maybe we will master telleportation and be able to levitate. I've heard that theory too.

[opales]

Alzhiemers is not caused by dividing neurons nor does alzheimers cause neurons to divide. It is partly a result of plaque that forms in the brain. The neurons die, they don't divide. I'm not sure where you got your info on that.

well, for example, you should have read the first link I provided.

[tracer]

I have three things to say:

1. Avast, ye evil thread 'jackers.
2. It's a very interesting read... well worth losing the discussion on "lithium", and rather focusing on the broader issue which is the neurogenesis itself.
3. I'm with Paul Idol. Generally there are not many mature (i.e. differentiated) cell lines in the body that do actually divide... it's usually what I refer to as a progenitor line. PI's bone analogy extends to muscle as well... a torn/damaged mycocyte causes the release of several substances (i.e. lots of crap - PGF2a, PGE2, IGF1, IL6) into the intercellular space. The sattelite cells nearby are stimulated by these to either differentiate, proliferate or die. The ones that die produce more crap. Hence - the word the bodybuilders love - anabolism! It seems to be a recurring theme in the Human organism.

That said, in muscle, the balance between proliferation (P), differentiation (D) and death (T) is differently affected by different substances. IGF1 increases P & D. PGF2 vastly increases D and P to a somewhat lesser extent. PGE2 increases T but also P. Go figure...

What I was after in my question above - what does Lithium do? Does it stimulate proliferation, differentiation, death or all? What is the balance. This determines how you should use it.

While we're all stomping merrily off-topic, lets take an example... I use steroids and other anabolics. Infrequently and in low doses, but I use them. What I do on a brief cycle (about 2-4 weeks) is try to cause a massive amount of sattelite cell proliferation but not necessarily differentiation (yet). When I'm off I focus on moderate (i.e. naturally achievable) proliferation, but also more differentiation of the sattelite cells that were spawned during my cycle.

Hence, I tend to do very harsh androgenic drugs like Trenbolone, 1-Testosterone along with something like Testosterone or Nandrolone as a "base". I don't often use drugs like Methandrostenolone or Oxymetholone although they would make me show more gains while on cycle, for me that's not what it's about. I am already pretty big and I don't want to get bigger just stronger. I generally stick in a PGF2 analogue (FP prostanoid receptor agonist like Dinoprost or Cloprostenol) in low doses to help this out a bit. I train in ways that are very harsh and cause a lot of muscle damage and hence localised IGF1 , PGF2, PGE2 and IL6 release. This would not be possible without causing catastrophic overtraining unless I was on a little sauce.

When that cycle is over, I return to normal power training. Usually I'm not very much bigger when the cycle is over, but over the following 4-6 months, I see my strength go up very significantly as I start to incorporate my new sattelite cells into my fast twich muscle fiber. Over the last two years I have turned myself from an atrophied, car-accident, slow twich wreck to someone who is strong and fast.

And now I want to do the same with my brain. Does lithium have something to offer in this enterprise? I can't say yet. But I extend my thanks to all of you for your posts and valuable information.

[hiredavidrnow]

Wait a minute... your posting about something totally different.

Lithium Orotate is what he was talking about, not carbonate: which is the 'drug' form of lithium. The orotate and aspartate forms have seemed to be very helpful to me.
But you need to be on a good supplement regimin, and even better you need to know if your body has any significant medical problems... Like for me, I know that I have a problem with mercury in my body, and so I have to take careful steps in not using NAC, and other things that will stir up this 'toxic burden' so it won't affect my liver, kidney's and overall brain function.

Consider this: [quote]There was a study conducted by the University College Swansea in the UK relating Vitamin supplementation for 1 year with improved mood, in which "One hundred and twenty-nine young healthy adults took either 10 times the recommended daily dose of 9 vitamins, or a placebo, under a double-blind procedure, for a year [...] Males taking the vitamins differed from those taking the placebo in that they reported themselves as feeling more 'agreeable' after 12 months. After 12 months the mood of females taking the vitamin supplement was significantly improved in that they felt more 'agreeable', more composed and reported better mental health. (Neuropsychobiology, 1995, 32:2, 98-105). [/quote]

Do you have any awareness of what impact Mercury levels in the body had on the details in this article that you wrote:
http://www.imminst.o...nter&f=6&t=3102

From my understanding, mercury hinders the body's overall functioning, and affects all of our bodies 'systems'.
Glutathione production is limited, especially in those that have a genetic history of cancer in the family.

I just discovered this posting you made, and I wanted to discuss this with you.

Thanks!


peace for now




[quote]This is my first post here, but I guess I'll jump right in.
I've done a little research on lithium and cognition/memory because I, too, have heard of its potential to increase gray matter.
It seems that although studies show that this is true, lithium's effects as far as cognition and memory all seem to be negative.
A quick search yielded these results:

[quote]Sassi RB. Nicoletti M. Brambilla P. Mallinger AG. Frank E. Kupfer DJ. Keshavan MS. Soares JC. Increased gray matter volume in lithium-treated bipolar disorder patients. [Journal Article] Neuroscience Letters. 329(2):243-5, 2002 Aug 30.

Lithium's neurotrophic effects have been reported in several in vitro and ex vivo studies. Preliminary human studies with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and spectroscopy have recently provided evidence of lithium-induced increases in gray matter volumes and N-acetyl-aspartate levels. [/quote]

[xanadu]

opales, I did read your first link and it said nothing about alzheimers. It certainly did not say that cell division leads to it.

Paul, you have theories about stem cells turning into neurons. I think it's an interesting theory but would like to see some studies on it. Asking for evidence seems to make people angry. Perhaps there is no more for us to discuss on that subject.

How could stem cells "migrate" into various parts of the brain? Do they shove aside other cells? Do they travel through the blood steam or through the fluid and burrow into parts of the brain where needed? How do they carry out this burrowing and traveling? Do they have muscles or flagella to move with? It seems very odd to me.

[opales]

opales, I did read your first link and it said nothing about alzheimers. It certainly did not say that cell division leads to it.

this is fairly odd given that the article was named "Researchers Find Another Origin for Alzheimer's:Illness may originate with dividing brain cells, they say".

your theory of science seems strange. first, just because we do not have every detail of some theory covered does not mean that the theory does not have strong evidence on it or that all other theories are equally possible as you seem to suggest with stems cells vs. division. also, you demand higher level of proof than most people, but seem to be quite content with much lower evidence level with your existing paradigm (ie. neglible evidence with telomeres, none with brain cell division). most disturbingly, you demand that other people convince on every level of detail (as if they had nothing better to do) rather than seeking answers yourself when pointed at right direction, but even when they attempt to do so, you obstinately resist to review the evidence. most your questions on stem cell mechanics have either empirical results or plausible explanations covering them.

Edited by opales, 11 February 2006 - 08:27 PM.

[xanadu]

opales, is this the link you mean?

check for example:
http://www.learner.o...o/neuro_11.html

If not, perhaps you could repost the link you are talking about. I don't demand absolute proof or that all questions be answered. I do ask for some proof beyond a mere statement. I said the stem cell theory was interesting, I asked for something to back it up. I asked how they could move around and find where they were supposed to go. Is everyone expected to just accept what is said and not question it at all? We learn things by asking questions.

[the big b]

Has anyone here come to a final conclusion?

[syr_]

I know that I have a problem with mercury in my body, and so I have to take careful steps in not using NAC, and other things that will stir up this 'toxic burden' so it won't affect my liver, kidney's and overall brain function.

uh? Please elaborate the effect of NAC in case of mercury poisoning.

[tracer]

The final answer is 42.

Milligrams of LiOr in my stack per day.

[acoli]

It seems that Lithium only increases previous grey matter deficits, such as in bipolar and schitzophrenia, or Alzheimer's etc. http://www.bipolarne...arch News 3.htm "Dr. Manji and colleagues has shown that acute administration of lithium increases gray matter in the brains of bipolar patients but not in normal volunteer controls." I have bipolar so it should help me.

[tracer]

Hi Acoli...

How can you tell if your'e bipolar. The voices in my head keep telling me I'm not, and that I'm being paranoid. What do you think?

[kottke]

Lithium definantly looks like a fine substace to supplement daily. 5-10mgs a day seems pretty good and not too high.

hiredavidrnow-

"Like for me, I know that I have a problem with mercury in my body, and so I have to take careful steps in not using NAC, and other things that will stir up this 'toxic burden' so it won't affect my liver, kidney's and overall brain function."

Id also like to know what you mean by NAC stirring up a toxic burden on your liver if a large amount of mercury is present.