52 replies to this topic

[jack black]

 

As for my massive stack, it's not massive if you consider the fact that I only take the majority of it for 3 days a week, and take a full break every Sunday. I've learned from experience that the likelihood of anything to stop working due to tolerance/homeostasis is very high for almost every class of psychotropic.

Hence the need to cycle and to use different pathways instead of just one.

 

I am now interested in HDAC inhibitors maybe once a week to get rid of my long fear of successful/high value people.

 

 

I always thought about it. Could it be possible to use a different class of nootropic/psychotropic every day (ie one substance once a week) and have constant effects for each work/school day without ever developing tolerance? I guess one could do NMDA antagonists on weekends to deal with tolerance too.

I somehow think it's too good to be true. If you figured out the perfect scheme, feel free to post.

 

thanks for the mention of HDACi. i ordered sodium butyrate powder to experiment with. LOL, i have the same unease around very assertive people, probably for childhood reasons similar to yours.

Edited by jack black, 25 January 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[Major Legend]

 

 

As for my massive stack, it's not massive if you consider the fact that I only take the majority of it for 3 days a week, and take a full break every Sunday. I've learned from experience that the likelihood of anything to stop working due to tolerance/homeostasis is very high for almost every class of psychotropic.

Hence the need to cycle and to use different pathways instead of just one.

 

I am now interested in HDAC inhibitors maybe once a week to get rid of my long fear of successful/high value people.

 

 

I always thought about it. Could it be possible to use a different class of nootropic/psychotropic every day (ie one substance once a week) and have constant effects for each work/school day without ever developing tolerance? I guess one could do NMDA antagonists on weekends to deal with tolerance too.

I somehow think it's too good to be true. If you figured out the perfect scheme, feel free to post.

 

thanks for the mention of HDACi. i ordered sodium butyrate powder to experiment with. LOL, i have the same unease around very assertive people, probably for childhood reasons similar to yours.

 

 

Yes it's possible - in my experience anyways. 3 Days on and 3 Days off usually works well.  1 full week might be enough for you to "burn out" on said pathway. It's really the burn out that causes the strongest tolerance changes, tolerance involves protein synthesis and it's not something cells do quickly. 

 

Logically if you think about it, it really makes no sense to target one pathway daily, when there are usually multiple pathways to achieve similar things, plus even drugs of the same class have enough differences. For example Nicotine can be cycled with High Dose Caffeine as I do, both achieve somewhat similar end effects, but work on totally different pathways. Oxytocin/Anxiolytics. 

 

The top reason why results are so sporadic online for people, is they will take one substance get placebo or real effects and then keep taking it until they find it diminishes in effect and stop working. This isn't just receptor driven, the body has many many mechanisms for dealing with tolerance.

For example, it can reduce the adsoption at the intestines, increase the removal by the liver/kidneys, your brain can psychologically "ignore" the drugs effects, biochemical changes at the brain.

This is partly where I attribute my success of being able to stay on so many chemicals and keep them effective for 4 years+ because I cycle.

Dosing high for mood effects is the surefire way to get tolerance, as once those circuits get involved the brain due to evolution has HUGE INTEREST in reducing happiness, because people who were too happy probably died in the wild. This is why people trying to get high will always come back down, and reverse to a lower baseline.

 

NMDA antagonists don't work like that to my understanding - you need constantly availaible plasma concentration to prevent tolerance. Depending on which NMDA antagonist you are talking about. Memantine relies of being a non-competitive inhibitor, and being there at the time of dosing to prevent overflow of CA+ ions which lead to drug tolerance.

Memantine by itself basically according to theory anyways (despite other people's experience) should only work in the presence of other drugs.

Other chemicals like Agmatine Sulfate have OTHER MECHANISMS that work to reverse tolerance.

 

Hope that was helpful ^

What's the difference between sodium butyrate and Vorinostat?

[resveratrol_guy]

 

Dreams are definitely more vivid on N-PEP-12, I would emphasize vivid because they are far more detailed and clear, but not more emotional. 

Thats why I cycle and rarely take something all the time. 

I think it lasts about 6 hours actually, I think the anti-fatigue effects are the most prominent, notably not being tired in the evening, this effect is still there. Being able to function with little sleep.

The other new effect is similar to NSI-189, where I am learning things faster, but also losing some instinctual skills developed via age, it's like I am seeing the words more as they are, not as my years of experience tells me. It's hard to describe this kind of thing, it's a cool thing and also a bad thing at the same time.  (  have dropped NSI-189 off my stack)

 

It makes sense because I have a lot of old skills that are simply redundant in todays world, and if that gets replaced by more up to date skills that's fine for me.

For the mood effects(feeling young again) I mentioned in my first post, I pretty much figured out you need to take 3 tablets which is 270mg.

This is so expensive that there is no way I can take it as much as I want.

 

I don't feel my mental abilities or productivity has increased at all, rather I just feel being able to fully access them like you are when you wake up. 

I think tolerance is likely to develop (tolerance is complicated and not just about receptors), other aspects like physiological tolerance, psychological tolerance can be a factor.

 

How strange. The vivid dreams sound like what I experienced on intranasal betaNGF. And for that matter, betaNGF wasn't really an emotional enhancer for me, either. So the overlap in effects between these substances is suggestive of neurogenesis because that's what betaNGF does.

OTOH the antifatigue effects are not something I encounted with betaNGF. That sounds more like Nuvigil. Does it give you caffeine type jitters, or are you just more awake?

I'm particularly intrigued by your comments regarding network recycling: it sounds like you're disposing of poorly utilized circuitry and rewiring it to encode more relevant information, in the zen sense of "beginner's mind". Damn cool! I've never experienced that with any of the substances I've taken. But... does the learning stick? Or does it just go out the window after your 6 hour effect period? Do you just retreat into your previous understanding of things?

You said that you can access your existing unenhanced mental abilities, but in such a manner that you feel like you've just woken up. This is telling because, generally, inflammation is at a minimum, and ketones at a maximum, first thing in the morning. Normally, I would not associate neuroplasticity with low neuroinflammation; they are quite distinct concepts resulting from completely different pathways. To get both from the same simple peptide is perplexing.

Supposing you could use your new energy to earn more money, then buy more Memoprove, I wonder if at some point you would experience more sustained cognitive improvement.

Let us know when it stops working for you. The track record for noots is rather dysmal in this regard, but there's always the odd exception.
 

[Major Legend]

 

 

 

 

How strange. The vivid dreams sound like what I experienced on intranasal betaNGF. And for that matter, betaNGF wasn't really an emotional enhancer for me, either. So the overlap in effects between these substances is suggestive of neurogenesis because that's what betaNGF does.

OTOH the antifatigue effects are not something I encounted with betaNGF. That sounds more like Nuvigil. Does it give you caffeine type jitters, or are you just more awake?

I'm particularly intrigued by your comments regarding network recycling: it sounds like you're disposing of poorly utilized circuitry and rewiring it to encode more relevant information, in the zen sense of "beginner's mind". Damn cool! I've never experienced that with any of the substances I've taken. But... does the learning stick? Or does it just go out the window after your 6 hour effect period? Do you just retreat into your previous understanding of things?

You said that you can access your existing unenhanced mental abilities, but in such a manner that you feel like you've just woken up. This is telling because, generally, inflammation is at a minimum, and ketones at a maximum, first thing in the morning. Normally, I would not associate neuroplasticity with low neuroinflammation; they are quite distinct concepts resulting from completely different pathways. To get both from the same simple peptide is perplexing.

Supposing you could use your new energy to earn more money, then buy more Memoprove, I wonder if at some point you would experience more sustained cognitive improvement.

Let us know when it stops working for you. The track record for noots is rather dysmal in this regard, but there's always the odd exception.
 

 

 

Sure, I never experienced vivid dreams on NSI-138.

 

The learning definitely sticks better on NSI-138 and N-PEP-12 (both same effect), It feels far easier to go through coding tutorials on either drug than without, though of course with the aforementioned side effect.

That said until I build a really large web project from scratch and apply everything I've learned, I won't know how successful this has been. At the very least it doesn't feel as painful to learn, which is good.

 

I am not sure its "disposing poorly utilized circuitry" or simply wiping certain things out to free space.

 

Perhaps you can say that the crystal like memory of older age is replaced with a more fluid younger one, which makes total sense, but there are advantages with older age cognition. Younger minds definitely live "in the moment" more.

^ So with N-PEP-12 it seems like the youthful mindset actually has a disadvantage of making you plan less and be more spontaneous. I never thought about it that way, but it makes total sense if you think how patient older people tend to be, and how impatient young people tend to be. Thats why I said it's a hormone-like effect.

No no...the ant-fatigue is like "you don't get knackered in the afternoon" that's all, there is no caffeine or Adderall like buzz, it's nothing like stimulants, merely an absence of the brain wanting to sleep.

 

[jack black]

What's the difference between sodium butyrate and Vorinostat?

Butyrate is natural and can also help with IBS/IBD, but it's smelly and requires high doses.

[jack black]

My stack is Fasoracetam 100mg, NSI 189 30mg, Noopept 20mg (all Sublingual) , Wellbutrin 300mg, Nicotine Lozenge 3x a day (only 3 days a week - Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday). I will cycle to VPX redline extreme (preworkout drink) on thursdays and onward, and take a complete break from everything on Sunday. 

 

[...]

 

With my newly added N-PEP-12 I have phenomenal energy, I worked all day yesterday, went to a pub crawl, went to a design workshop for 2 hours (where I chatted up another girl and got her number) partied till 4am with uni students, danced like crazy ( felt good all the way) and woke up today fresh...amazing! I feel no fatigue nor hangover.

 

 

Reading this again, sounds like the great effects are due to the entire stack and not just N-pep12. Does N-pep12 feel different when you do it Mon-Wed vs Thu-Sat (difference in stack on those days)?

 

Edited by jack black, 25 January 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Sure, I never experienced vivid dreams on NSI-138.

 

The learning definitely sticks better on NSI-138 and N-PEP-12 (both same effect), It feels far easier to go through coding tutorials on either drug than without, though of course with the aforementioned side effect.

That said until I build a really large web project from scratch and apply everything I've learned, I won't know how successful this has been. At the very least it doesn't feel as painful to learn, which is good.

 

I am not sure its "disposing poorly utilized circuitry" or simply wiping certain things out to free space.

 

Perhaps you can say that the crystal like memory of older age is replaced with a more fluid younger one, which makes total sense, but there are advantages with older age cognition. Younger minds definitely live "in the moment" more.

^ So with N-PEP-12 it seems like the youthful mindset actually has a disadvantage of making you plan less and be more spontaneous. I never thought about it that way, but it makes total sense if you think how patient older people tend to be, and how impatient young people tend to be. Thats why I said it's a hormone-like effect.

No no...the ant-fatigue is like "you don't get knackered in the afternoon" that's all, there is no caffeine or Adderall like buzz, it's nothing like stimulants, merely an absence of the brain wanting to sleep.

 

You switched from NSI-189 to NSI-138? Please explain. (I actually suggested, once upon a time in that unreadably long thread, that NSI-189 was not the optimal compound, according to the original researcher's test assay, and was frankly puzzled why they would have elected to capitalize on it.)

 

"merely an absence of the brain wanting to sleep" -- Wow! A lot of us, myself included, would benefit from something that made us alert when awake, but stayed out of the way when we're trying to sleep. This is of course the whole problem with caffeine, especially for those of us like me who are homozygous slow caffeine metabolizers.

 

What you say about the old minds being more expert and young minds being more inventive is unfortunately a rather accurate generalization. In the past, it took both types to create a stable society, because as much as we enshrine innovation, too much of it creates chaos. But given the choice between retention and plasticity, I'd personally prefer the latter. I mean, pragmatically speaking, we're getting to the point in history where we need brilliant analytical and creative faculties just to keep up with the AI systems, but good memory beyond a week or so is becoming less necessary. (The sociological term for this is "cognitive offload" [onto the cloud].) Given current trends in neurological therapy, it's easy to imagine a future in which we have millions of people living in nonprogressive early stage Alzheimer's, in which their hippocampi have been mostly destroyed, but in which further disease progression has been arrested. Such people would benefit  from something like N-PEP-12.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 25 January 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[Major Legend]

I meant NSI-189...I have not found a compound yet which fixes my weakness with numbers ha.

 

NSI-189 was not the optimal compound, but it's likely chosen because of safety, as I recall the other compounds were far more powerful, that can increase risk of cancer perhaps.

 

If I could go back in time I would definitely work hard on maths as I am seeing more and more that it's going to be the most valuable skill in the future, programming is something you can learn logically, maths is a whole different game that takes years and years and layers and layers of understanding. I can't even do calculus for example, because I never got very far in maths.

I mean when you talk about A.I, that's machine learning territory and increasingly the valuable skills look heavily STEM vertical. Anyways going off topic, no drug can buy time unfortunately. A lot of these super vertical skillsets like being a data mining or bioinformatics takes years and years of focused study.

[resveratrol_guy]

I meant NSI-189...I have not found a compound yet which fixes my weakness with numbers ha.

 

NSI-189 was not the optimal compound, but it's likely chosen because of safety, as I recall the other compounds were far more powerful, that can increase risk of cancer perhaps.

 

If I could go back in time I would definitely work hard on maths as I am seeing more and more that it's going to be the most valuable skill in the future, programming is something you can learn logically, maths is a whole different game that takes years and years and layers and layers of understanding. I can't even do calculus for example, because I never got very far in maths.

I mean when you talk about A.I, that's machine learning territory and increasingly the valuable skills look heavily STEM vertical. Anyways going off topic, no drug can buy time unfortunately. A lot of these super vertical skillsets like being a data mining or bioinformatics takes years and years of focused study.

 

Well, while there's no pill that's going to give you a STEM skillset, there is a supplement which will enhance mathematical thinking. Nothing else has ever come close to what shiitake-maitake extract has done for me in this regard. If you try it (Nature's Way), let us know how it interacts with N-PEP-12. I've been repeating this for years where the topic has arisen, but I don't know of anyone who has ever taken my advice on this forum. Just be warned that one pill in the morning is way plenty. I will concede, though, that among my friends only half of them report the powerful effects that I experience, so I suspect there may be unknown genetic constraints involved here.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 26 January 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[tolerant]

So... I'm trying to work this out dosage and cost-wise... the topic starter is getting these amazing benefits taking 3 tablets per days of a product that costs $50 per 1 month supply. How much Cerebrolysin would one need to inject to get the same dosage? And considering Cerebrolysin costs EUR59 per 5 ampules, are injections definitely cheaper?

 

Also, Major Legend, when you say you feel like you're back to your youth, do you mean purely cognitively, or also to an extent emotionally? Thanks.

[resveratrol_guy]

P.S. I forgot to ask the obvious question: why did you drop NSI-189? And for those who wish to dig into the chemistry, Florian Seichert has presented some computational analysis of its suspected targets. Perhaps he could do the same with N-PEP-12, given a structure.

[chemicalambrosia]

Where are people buying Cerebrolysin nowadays, given that nootropic (or was it nootropics).eu is no more?

 

https://cosmicnootropic.com/ has it.

[Keizo]

So... I'm trying to work this out dosage and cost-wise... the topic starter is getting these amazing benefits taking 3 tablets per days of a product that costs $50 per 1 month supply. How much Cerebrolysin would one need to inject to get the same dosage? And considering Cerebrolysin costs EUR59 per 5 ampules, are injections definitely cheaper?

 

Also, Major Legend, when you say you feel like you're back to your youth, do you mean purely cognitively, or also to an extent emotionally? Thanks.

they used to cost 39EUR 1 year ago, plus 15EUR shipping, times 0.85 (bitcoin discount)

 

Now it is 59EUR per + 15 EUR times 0.9 (bitcoin discount)

[ceridwen]

Wondering how to get syringes

[logicmuffin]

Any thoughts on the theoretical prion disease risk?

http://www.brainprot...ous-nootropics/

Edited by logicmuffin, 09 March 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Any thoughts on the theoretical prion disease risk?

http://www.brainprot...ous-nootropics/

 

This has been brought up many times. I think the best answer is to avoid Cerebrolysin in favor of synthetic peptides which deliver some of the benefit without the prion risk, e.g. Memoprove.
 

[logicmuffin]

Any thoughts on the theoretical prion disease risk?

http://www.brainprot...ous-nootropics/

This has been brought up many times. I think the best answer is to avoid Cerebrolysin in favor of synthetic peptides which deliver some of the benefit without the prion risk, e.g. Memoprove.

Thanks for commenting, I was not aware of that workaround. Sorry to beat a dead horse!

[MetaphasicSystems]

Major Legend, to be clear, you're actually taking (oral) Memoprove, not (injectable) Cerebrolysin, depsite the title of this thread. You attribute your surprising results to N-PEP-12 (science paper here), which is the component common to both.

That would be interesting, because a few years back, Ceretropic was selling P21, another Cerebrolysin derivative. It generated some interest here on Longecity as a result of promising research, but then it suddenly became unavailable. I can see that it's once again available over there, as injectable and intranasal. My guess is that taking both Memoprove and P21 would result in a synergistic neurotrophic effect without the dubious ramifications of injecting what is literally pig brain extract. The thread is worth a read, though, because P21 caused some problems.

As long as we're on a neurotrophic roll here, why not throw in intranasal insulin as well?

Personally, if I were to try this, I would want to be on a very strict diet supplemented with NSAIDs and/or Longvida, because the last thing I would want to do is create new neurons in a polluted environment.

Anyway please keep us informed on your progress. Maybe you're really pushing neurogenesis and/or synaptogenesis. Or maybe you're just doing some temporary trick with neurotransmitters that will soon disappear thanks to homeostasis. Or, even worse, you might be burning something out like in all those piracetam anecdotes around here. In any event, you have my sincere appreciation for being such a bold guinea pig.

Why the nsaids?

[jroseland]

MajorLegend, on the link connected to your stack - it just reroutes to this page - what is your stack, i'm intrigued..

 

My stack is Fasoracetam 100mg, NSI 189 30mg, Noopept 20mg (all Sublingual) , Wellbutrin 300mg, Nicotine Lozenge 3x a day (only 3 days a week - Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday). I will cycle to VPX redline extreme (preworkout drink) on thursdays and onward, and take a complete break from everything on Sunday. 

 

On top of this for socialising and anti-anxiety I use Khemcorp's Oxytocin Nasal Spray and sometimes Sublingual Propranolol solution (which I use for sleep also sometimes instead of Melatonin).

 

Wow. Now that's a stack! 

 

 

[jroseland]

Long term Piracetam usage requires ALCAR, otherwise it exhausts some function of the ACh system

Ha! You're not the first to ask me about this. If you do a local search for "piracetam burnout" or "experience" or "brain fog" you'll find a number of anecdotes from people who claim it worked for a while, say a few months, then left them irreversibly dumbed down. It's not as simple as it sounds, of course: there are also strategies which attempt to avert the burnout (chronic cessation, metabolic support, etc.), theories as to why it occurs (e.g. translocation of choline to the forebrain, thereby starving the postcortical region), 

 

 

[jroseland]

Sorry I'm confused...

 

Are N-PEP-12 and Cerebrolysin the same thing? Or are they just chemically related?

^ So with N-PEP-12 it seems like the youthful mindset actually has a disadvantage of making you plan less and be more spontaneous. I never thought about it that way, but it makes total sense if you think how patient older people tend to be, and how impatient young people tend to be. Thats why I said it's a hormone-like effect.

 

[timothy55]

I have seen several people on longecity and reddit discuss taking Cerebrolysin intranasally. In my opinion one should always follow the instructions/drug sheet provided with the medicine/drug. In the official Cerebrolysin instructions it clearly states that the liquid substance should be injected intramuscular injection, intravenous injection or infusion.

 

The maximum daily dose allowed is 50 ml, however the average daily dose is 5-10 ml. Course of treatment is 10-20 days.

 

Also bear in mind that the smell of Cerebrolysin is horrible. I don't know how one can take it intranassaly, I would feel sick from the smell.

[Keizo]

I have seen several people on longecity and reddit discuss taking Cerebrolysin intranasally. In my opinion one should always follow the instructions/drug sheet provided with the medicine/drug. In the official Cerebrolysin instructions it clearly states that the liquid substance should be injected intramuscular injection, intravenous injection or infusion.

 

The maximum daily dose allowed is 50 ml, however the average daily dose is 5-10 ml. Course of treatment is 10-20 days.

 

Also bear in mind that the smell of Cerebrolysin is horrible. I don't know how one can take it intranassaly, I would feel sick from the smell.

For anyone interested, who might buy some and wonder if theirs is legitimate: it smells sort of like raw (low fat) pork. I think the sodium-hydroxide in the solution does contribute to smell (I've used NaOH solution for cleaning old stainless steel pans quite a lot - very distinct smell) and might for some trigger the memory of fermented foods. I don't find it very offensive, and it's not a strong smell to my nose, but I haven't put it up my nose and I'm not going to. I also think the smell passes through the blood system for a short period after IM use, or maybe I'm just imagining smelling it.

------------------

Trying to do a cycle of Cerebrolysin again, tho the only annoying part is that I don't find it very useful for productivity and it's rather hard to take anything vaguely stimulating in combination (I'm sensitive to those effects anyway). Maybe I will start drinking black tea.

------

Do they even sell the oral tablets (N-pep-whatever) anymore? I looked it up some time ago but couldn't find anyone selling that. Just curious.