103 replies to this topic

[FunkOdyssey]

I changed my tune on this after digging a little deeper. The healthy human gastrointestinal tract contains some 100 trillion bacteria. Some logical conclusions:

1) Ingesting ~10 billion friendly bacteria, a tiny insignificant number in relative terms, should not cause any undue alarm from the immune system. That sounds like complete BS from a company selling low CFU probiotics.

2) It has to take much larger CFU counts to make a dent in 100 trillion bacteria than people are typically using. If probiotics are having no discernable effect on your digestion, bowel movements, etc, this is probably why. Addtionally, you may not be getting any live bacteria or the wrong strains/species as evidenced by the tests ajnast4r linked to.

With this in mind, I went with Custom Probiotics and ordered a 50g batch of their six-strain 260 billion CFU per gram powder. I've been trying probiotics on and off recently with no effect (Kyo-Dophilis, Nature's Way Primadophilius, Jarrowdophilus EPS), I'll provide an update after I start with the new powder. A few billion of who knows what, versus half a trillion of the good stuff.... should be interesting.

[ajnast4r]

well i actually went ahead and bought some of the ohirra stuff... and it f'd my stomach up everytime i took it. i ended up not even finishing my 40$ box.

i got a bottle of primadophilus bifidus(blue label) from my work. i have a very noticable difference in digestion when a probiotic is working effectivly, and this stuff has been doing the job just fine... especially since its only 15$ for 3 months worth. when i have a little more money i will try custom probiotics.

[rfarris]

I still recommend Theralac. It was the first thing to make a significant difference... $10/mo

[syr_]

I like the composition of the Udo's probiotics (super 8 and advanced adult particularly).
I dont think CFU is the only thing that matters, but the kind of strains that there are in. Natren may be the best but its too expensive, not very potent and I couldnt find an european retailer.

[FunkOdyssey]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me as I do research that maintaining healthy gut flora is one of the most vitally important cornerstones of health. The range of diseases and disorders that have their root in dysbiosis is astounding. The gastrointestinal tract is the entry point to the body and 70% of the immune system is concentrated there. Since the good bacteria line the intestine and maintain the integrity of the mucosal barrier, they represent our body's first line of defense. Once they go, its a domino effect from there, leading to every imaginable problem under the sun. I encourage everyone to give probiotics top priority and read up on them. The amount of influence these little buggers have over your health will blow your mind.

With this in mind, its not difficult to see the link between the rampant overuse of antibiotics in America and our unusually sick population (even controlling for things like obesity)

Edited by funkodyssey, 21 March 2006 - 05:10 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

I just drank a cold glass of cloudy water with 260 billion bacteria in it (custom probiotics six-strain blend). Bacteria taste funny. I'll let you know what happens to me over the next several days.

[dayfly]

Funkodyssey...I'm taking a custom probiotics powder formulation since 6 weeks. My formulation consists of 90% Bifido bacteria. Along with Mutaflor which contains E.coli bacteria it's the first probiotic that works for me. I'm pretty sure that it takes several months if not even years to make a significant difference. And finally as we all know: "Le germe n'est rien, le terrain est tout" (the bacterium is nothing the medium is all)
Therefore I think it will have only little impact if the medium in the intestines or in the colon is not appropriate for good bacterias. Prebiotics, ph-value, diet seem to play a great role for the settling of the good guys. I take Butyrate, a short chainy fatty acid 15 min before I drink a glass of "cloudy water" . I consider Inulin and Aloe Vera also as possible prebiotics but haven't tried them yet.

[FunkOdyssey]

I don't want to get too explicit, but its definitely having a noticeable and positive impact on my digestion and excrement after only a few days. I do get a substantial amount of Inulin FOS in the natural sweeteners I use (seems like FOS is the favorite filler for any stevia or lo han based formulation). There is some debate over whether FOS is a good idea as it may feed bad bacteria as well, and often contains free sugar. I'm very optimistic about the custom powder and I'll keep updating as I continue taking two scoops daily.

I may be confounding things a little because I also started using Twinlab Super Enzymes at approximately the same time. These were recommended to me by Harry Bronozian, the founder of Custom Probiotics. I never thought I'd recommend Twinlab anything, but I really like these over alternative formulas. It has a hefty dose of pancreatin, as opposed to the homeopathic doses in some enzyme products. No cellulase, which is excellent -- I have no idea why other formulas use that. You aren't supposed to be able to digest fiber; if you do, it doesn't perform its normal functions. I found LEF's Super Digestive Enzymes to be constipating for that reason. I also like the modest amount of betaine hcl and pepsin... many people can use a small boost in stomach acidity (90% of heartburn sufferers actually have too little stomach acid).

Also taking lactoferrin (250mg 4x daily), which ties up all the iron that "bad" bacteria need to flourish and boosts the immune system. This should be helping the good guys settle in.

Edited by funkodyssey, 27 March 2006 - 05:52 PM.

[DukeNukem]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me as I do research that maintaining healthy gut flora is one of the most vitally important cornerstones of health.

No question about it, Funk. I've been saying this for years. Additionally, getting at least 40 grams of mixed fiber (soluble and insoluble) goes hand-and-hand with keeping gut flora in peak condition. Generally, we have about 100 trillion bacterial organisms in our gut -- more than the number of cells in our body! (Our we here for them, or are they here for us -- an fun side question?) That's about three pounds of bacteria. A healthy, normal ratio is about 80-90 percent good bacteria, and the rest is bad bacteria. Fiber is key at keeping a healthy ratio. However, most people, who live on the Standard American Diet (a.k.a. McDonald's, sodas, white bread, potatoes, fried chicken, etc.) have a reversed ratio. And this leads to a list of immunity related problems (including the formation of cancer), and digestion problems. For example, good bacteria is critical for proper absorption of nutrients.

So, probiotics, as well as fermented foods, are critical to long term health. Simple, starchy, sugary carbs feed the bad bacteria. Fibrous, complex carbs feed the good bacteria. Keep that sobering thought in mind your next few meals...

[DukeNukem]

Also taking lactoferrin (250mg 4x daily), which ties up all the iron that "bad" bacteria need to flourish and boosts the immune system. This should be helping the good guys settle in.

Agreed again. I'm a lactoferrin junkie. I buy it in powder form from Beyond a Century, and pre-mix it into all of my protein powders. I probably get close to 3-4 grams daily. Lactoferrin is a powerful anti-cancer agent, a powerful immunity booster, and an iron chelator. And pretty much non-toxic. As Duke Nukem himself would say, "Come get some."

[FunkOdyssey]

Nice... that seems like a large dose though, why so much? That would cost about $90 a month to get 4g daily, and I already use the cheapest source (Jarrow 60 250mg capsules, $16... beats BAC slightly). I recognize the safety of it but I'm wondering if there is any additional benefit.

Nice Duke Nukem reference. Hey, why did that game have so many strippers and pictures of almost naked girls in it? I was only 12 and I think I may have been traumatized... send me some of your extra supplements and we'll call it even? [lol]

[mitkat]

Nice Duke Nukem reference.   Hey, why did that game have so many strippers and pictures of almost naked girls in it? I was only 12 and I think I may have been traumatized... send me some of your extra supplements and we'll call it even?

[lol] This makes two of us! Ever since playing, I've been struck with a strong urge to kick ass and chew bubble gum...and I'm fresh of out xylitol bubblegum.

[DukeNukem]

Funk, my lactoferrin intake is spread throughout the day. I see this as a valuable supplement because of the immunity boosting effect, and the anti-cancer benefit. And because it's so easy to take (I've added the powder form to all of my protein powders) I don't see any reason why not to take the quantity I'm taking. Luckily, money is not an issue.

[dayfly]

Additionally, getting at least 40 grams of mixed fiber (soluble and insoluble) goes hand-and-hand with keeping gut flora in peak condition.

May I ask your primary source of fiber? Since a couple of weeks I avoid all kind of grains to figure out if it does any good to me...before grains have been my most important source of fiber...

However, most people, who live on the Standard American Diet (a.k.a. McDonald's, sodas, white bread, potatoes, fried chicken, etc.)

Duke, do you consider potatos as unhealthy or not beneficial for creating a healty gut flora? Sweet potatoes as well?

What kind of fermented foods are you consuming regularly? I've been reading your posts in the last few months and learned that you basically avoid dairy which of course limits the choice of natural fermented foods.

Agreed again. I'm a lactoferrin junkie. I buy it in powder form from Beyond a Century, and pre-mix it into all of my protein powders. I probably get close to 3-4 grams daily. Lactoferrin is a powerful anti-cancer agent, a powerful immunity booster, and an iron chelator.

This lactoferrin sounds really interesting. I admit that I didn't know much about if before. I'm suffering from a lactose intolerance (at least the doctor told me) but in fact it's more a cow protein allergy or something like that. Do you think this could cause any kind or trouble with the Lactoferrin?
I was also thinking about a protein powder as I also do some weightlifting but eat way to less protein in my diet. Most proteins contain lot s of whey which is high in lactose so that I avoided taking some. I also read some threads by people who got skin problems due to the protein powder.

Funk, do you take the Lactoferrin before taking the probiotics or after?

[FunkOdyssey]

I don't think Lactoferrin will give you any problem with allergies because its an isolated subfraction of milk protein that is only normally present in minute quantity. You are most likely allergic to some other component of the protein.

I am also lactose intolerant and that restricted my choice of protein powders as well. Fortunately, the best tasting protein powder on the planet is lactose free and doesn't give me any bloating or other problems. Muscle Milk, comes in a bunch of delicious flavors, or if you are willing to take a taste hit for health's sake, Muscle Milk Naturals is the same formula using stevia + lo han fruit instead of artificial sweetener. I get it from massnutrition.com, $18 per 2lb tub (its $30 in stores). It is 40% casein and 60% whey, same ratio as human milk, low carb, and has alot of MCT's from coconut oil.

[DukeNukem]

Dayfly, I eat of lot of vegetables throughout the day, which is a great source for fiber. I also get fiber from oatmeal, the only grain I eat regularly. I generally avoid starchy carbs, with sweet potatoes being one of the few exceptions. I also avoid grains (except the occasional pizza slice or two -- my biggest weakness as far as diet health goes ). White potatoes are pretty much a worthless food nutrition-wise, and they're close to sugar in as far as the glycemic index goes, so I just avoid them all together.

I also get fiber via supplementation, such as psyllium husks, LEF's Enhanced Fiber Food Powder, and WellBetX's PGX sugar blocker pills, which I take before most meals to slow down digestion and smooth out insulin surges.

Although I recommend fermented foods, I rarely eat them, mostly because I avoid dairy (except on pizza!), and I find the taste hard to handle on most fermented foods. So, I rely on probiotics to cover that base.

For a looks-good-on-paper non-dairy protein powder (meaning, I haven't tried it), you might consider this one.

[FunkOdyssey]

I also get fiber from oatmeal, the only grain I eat regularly.

What do you think of quinoa? That's the other grain I eat regularly.. actually it is technically a seed. It has alot more protein than your average grain, and its unique in that its a complete protein (includes lysine). No gluten either, high fiber, easily digested. With organic butter and sea salt, it is so delicious.

[DukeNukem]

Haven't tried it, but sounds like a winner. I've looked for quinoa bread at Whole Foods before, but never found it.

[dayfly]

Duke & Funk...thanks for the information! I'll definitely look into that lactoferrin! Although the following site suggests that human studies are almost entirely lacking and that more research has to be done. It is still unclear whether lactoferrin and it's active form lactoferricin are absorbed at all in the intestines.

http://www.pdrhealth.../lac_0314.shtml

Another quote: There is some preliminary evidence from in vitro and animal research that supplemental lactoferrin may have some immune-enhancing effects. There is no evidence that it is effective as a treatment or preventive in any form of cancer. Neither is there any credible evidence to support claims that it helps those with fatigue or allergy.

This site clearly points out that the suggested actions of lactoferrin are not proven in human studies. On other websites like LEF and all other companies that might have interest in marketing lactoferrin as a supplement there is nothing mentioned of that.

But anyway, it seems to be proven that lactoferrin supports the growth of Bifidobacteria which is the primary objective why I'm taking probiotics. Since I was a baby my diet has been lacking any kind of milk protein. I was not breast fed but fed with tea as a substitute for milk. [:o]
My recent test results from www.doctorsdata.com showed that I basically have almost no Bifido bacteria which maybe is due to my diet which has always been poor of milk and fermented foods.

Thanks for the link of the non-dairy protein powder. Looks good!

Funk & Duke, how do you acutally eat your oatmeal? I mean do you combine it with milk, berries or something like that?

Funk, what is you recipe for quinoa? Do you mean Quinoa bread with butter and salt?

Well Duke, I'm somewhat interested in your diet (saw your answers to the "what diet do you follow" thread in the nutrition and exercise section...). I'm also partly following the Okinawan diet but also have some elements of the Medditerranean diet and the bloodtype AB diet. I'll open another thread about the Okinawan dieat in the nutrition section.

[FunkOdyssey]

Off the top of my head, lactoferrin is present in human milk at quantities 15x greater than bovine milk, and that is no accident. It is thought to be the agent primarily responsible for the development of healthy gut flora in babies, and may be a principle reason why formula fed babies do not enjoy the same health and vitality as breast-fed. Apparently, some formula makers are considering supplementing with lactoferrin to address this.

You don't need to absorb the lactoferrin -- Its doing its work in your gastrointestinal tract, if you absorbed it easily and quickly in the upper GI, it would completely defeat the purpose.

I'll post more later with references.

About the oatmeal, I just make it on the stove (with bottled water), and then mix in the berries and flax and everything afterward. It looks like a purple oatmeal soup because of the juice from the blueberries, but it tastes very good.

With the quinoa, my girlfriend makes that for me 2-3 times weekly, and I have no idea how much she uses of what. Liberal amounts of organic butter and sea salt are involved though, and it is extremely tasty. She cooks it in a pot with water, similar to making oatmeal.

[Brainbox]

Regarding the probiotics, I once read that putting the powder or capsule contents in a glass of water, leaving it for about 15 to 30 minutes, would increase the ammount of bacteria 10 fold.

Looks like a cheap way to get higher ammount of stuff for the buck, but could there be side effects with this procedure?

Anyway, why not give these bastards a happy 30 minutes of reproductional activities after being in "dryostacis" for a long time.... [lol]

[oracle123]

Funk, I have a question. It's my understanding that when you drink powdered probiotic, all benefitial bacteria is killed by the stomach acid. I thought that was the point of getting the probiotic in acid-safe capsules. What's your take on that?

[FunkOdyssey]

I feel pretty good about the survival chances of my probiotics for a few reasons:

1) I take them with a tall glass of cold water (large volume of liquid dilutes stomach acid, cold temperature supresses HCl production)

2) I take them on an empty stomach (quick transit time through stomach, <30 minutes)

3) I take 250 billion at a time, SOME of them have to make it

4) Harry Bronozian asserts that his strains are very acid-resistant (I put this last because its based on his word alone with no supporting evidence)

[dayfly]

In the references from allergyresearchgroup they claim that especially Bifido bacteria are stomach-acid resistant.

http://www.allergyre...Sheet040105.pdf

Funk, what kind of custom formulation do you use? Do you take the Lactoferrin with the formulation or at another daytime?

Some people on the healthyawareness.com boards claim that they only had success with probiotics when they took them in an enema. This is supposed to be much more effective but somehow I dislike the thought of an enema;)))

[FunkOdyssey]

[lol] Yeah, using the probiotics in an enema makes sense and I'm sure it works well. I'm hoping I can achieve good results without having to resort to that.

I'm using the standard six-strain formula for the moment. I've been taking the lactoferrin 4x daily with food, independent of the probiotics.

I'm going to have an analysis done soon and may change the formulation of my probiotic blend based on the results -- CDSA test

[dayfly]

Thanks Funk!

An analysis definitely is a good idea. I had mine done at doctorsdata --

http://www.doctorsda..._info.asp?id=25

It's pretty much the same as the Great Smokies but my physician told me that some of the Great Smokies masterminds switched to doctorsdata. I also like the test analysis from doctorsdata more than the Great Smokies. Just compare the sample reports. Somehow it's more clearly arranged.

Edited by dayfly, 03 April 2006 - 02:26 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Hmm... I think I might like doctor's data a little better myself. They definitely provide superior interpretive analysis. Thanks for the heads up! [thumb]

[oracle123]

What's the cost of a typical test?

[dayfly]

I recommend this one: http://doctorsdata.c..._info.asp?id=16

Another good one which I haven't done yet is the Urine Amino Acid test.
http://doctorsdata.c..._info.asp?id=10

It also reveals abnormal intestinal microflora and if you suffer from maldigestion/malabsorption. Just view the sample report, this test is my personal favorite. I can't tell you the exact costs of the single tests because I ordered them from Europe in a package inlcl. shipping costs etc. I had to send them back into the US with FedEx 2nd day which probably is very expensive. Here's the email of doctorsdata:
inquiries@doctorsdata.com

I'm a big fan of tests that reveal more about one's personal bio-chemistry. This is probably the best health care and helps you to early diagnose nutritional deficiencies.

[FunkOdyssey]

Just a quick note about lactoferrin -- you want the iron-depleted form that is specifically called apolactoferrin. Bioferrin is the only patented form of apolactoferrin that I know of, and LEF seems to be the only place using it.

I was previously taking Jarrow's lactoferrin, but because they list it as ordinary lactoferrin, the suspiciously low price, and the fact that they never returned my inquiry on the matter, its likely not the iron-depleted form. I'm switching to the LEF lactoferrin.