103 replies to this topic

[dayfly]

I was reading about that matter recently. Nor I found another company that uses apolactoferrin. I'm not sure if the apolactoferrin is distinguishable on the price because LEF in general is a bit pricy. In Europe I just ordered the Lactoferrin from AOR: http://aoreurope.co.....php?prodid=178

Is Jarrow and AOR the same company? I was wondering about that because on the AOR Europe page they also offer some Jarrow supplements.
Probably the AOR lactoferrin is not the iron depleted form.

[FunkOdyssey]

I doubt it, as that would be a notable selling point (as evidenced by the attention LEF gives it in their product description). The formulators at AOR are too savvy to miss the distinction between ordinary lactoferrin and apolactoferrin, so it seems likely that they are not selling the iron-depleted form either.

[Pablo M]

A pertinent question to ask would be: what is the bacterial count of traditionally made, fresh yogurt or kefir? I would then look for a probiotic that had similar amounts of bacteria, or possibly one that was specially processed to ensure implantation in the gut as some of the Japanese products seem to be.

[FunkOdyssey]

Here's a partial answer that leaves me wondering if eating yogurt might be a more economical way to supplement probiotics if a brand with the right numbers of the right strains could be found:

Yogurt is milk that has fermented under the action of lactic bacteria. Certain specific bacterial strains convert part of the lactose into lactic acid. The milk coagulates when a sufficient quantity of lactic acid is produced. The curdling occurs by the combined action of two traditional fermenting agents: lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus. They produce the lactic acid and determine the yogurt’s characteristic flavor.

The fresher the yogurt, the more viable bacteria it contains. The virtues of yogurt are associated, among other things, with bacterial action in the intestines, making bacterial presence in a sufficient number important. Yogurt must by law contain at least 10 million bacteria per gram at the time it is marketed.

Natural unsweetened yogurt has nearly the same nutritional value as the milk with which it is made and is an excellent source of proteins, calcium (100 g provide about 15% of the daily recommended intake), potassium, phosphorus and vitamins A and B. In addition, yogurt provides all of the benefits associated with fermentation while only supplying very few calories. More than 90% of the yogurt can be digested within an hour, as opposed to 30% for milk. It provides an interesting and satisfying nutritional alternative for people with lactose intolerance.


Streptococci and Lactobacilli in Yogurt

The National Yogurt Association (NYA) established its own criteria for live and active culture yogurt in conjunction with its Live & Active Culture seal program. In order for manufacturers to carry the seal, refrigerated yogurt products must contain at least 100 million cultures per gram at the time of manufacture. This level was based on a survey of leading research scientists involved in clinical studies of the health attributes associated with live and active culture yogurt.

[FunkOdyssey]

After a little math, I've determined that any yogurt bearing the Live & Active Culture seal would contain at least 17 billion CFU per 6oz (170g) serving. [:o] Stonyfield Farms yogurt looks good, containing these strains: L. ACIDOPHILUS, BIFIDUS, L. CASEI, AND L. REUTERI

I'll put it all in my upcoming paper, "What the probiotic supplement industry doesn't want you to know about fermented foods" [lol]

[buck1s]

This is so coincidental. I'm eating Stonyfield Farms lowfat, plain yogurt right now. With organic cherries of course. Oh, and some Bear Naked granola (but that's only for a treat this time).

I also use Custom Probiotics everyday, but yogurt is certainly much more fun. I really wish I'd get up the nerve to track down a kefir grain and send away for some raw milk. Some day...

[syr_]

Is Jarrow and AOR the same company? I was wondering about that because on the AOR Europe page they also offer some Jarrow supplements.
Probably the AOR lactoferrin is not the iron depleted form.

1. No, its not, but the EU distributor Supplements Plus carries also Jarrow line.

2. I guess not, thats why I didnt try it. You could always write to them, as they are very nice and quick to answer.

[rfarris]

After a little math, I've determined that any yogurt bearing the Live & Active Culture seal would contain at least 17 billion CFU per 6oz (170g) serving.

17 billion per 6oz when produced!

[FunkOdyssey]

At least is also key there... stonyfield for example claims they far exceed the minimum and a serving of their yogurt has a live bacteria count in the hundreds of billions. I don't see why the bacteria would be more inclined to die off than those in a probiotic supplement. You can count on yogurt to stay refrigerated at all times -- more than you can say for a probiotic supplement.

I bought some yogurt today that is made from organic biodynamic unhomogenized whole milk and has added acidophilus and bifidus. I'm going to see if I can use it to wean off the custom probiotics partially while maintaining the benefits I've been enjoying.

[sentrysnipe]

Thanks, Funk and Duke for the lengthy info so now I have a new plan for gut health

1. TwinLab Super Enzyme
2. Lactoferrin from Beyond a Century
3. Custom Probiotics (switch to multi-strain)

FunkOdyssey: Were you able to choose the ratio of your probiotic strains in your custom probiotics order? If it said it contains ~200 billion cfu how much of it are acidophilus, etc.? I have only been taking Acidophilus, 2 scoops, morning and before bedtime.

Is there any truth behind this post:

Regarding the probiotics, I once read that putting the powder or capsule contents in a glass of water, leaving it for about 15 to 30 minutes, would increase the ammount of bacteria 10 fold.

[FunkOdyssey]

FunkOdyssey: Were you able to choose the ratio of your probiotic strains in your custom probiotics order? If it said it contains ~200 billion cfu how much of it are acidophilus, etc.? I have only been taking Acidophilus, 2 scoops, morning and before bedtime.

I went with the standard six-strain powder blend, as I am not aware of any special ratio that would benefit me. You can choose specific ratios of each strain if you want to though. They aren't called "custom" probiotics for nothing.

Bifidobacteria are very important for colon health, and many people who supplement with lactobacillus exclusively find after testing that, unsurprisingly, their GI tract is now dominated by them and bifido are supressed. Switching to the multi-strain is probably a good move.

At the moment, I have no idea if there is any truth behind brainbox's post.

[dayfly]

In the last few days I took two scoops of my custom probiotics formulation per day. One before breakfast and one at bedtime. I actually got stomach irritation and diarrhea. I was wondering if the bacteria count of the custom probiotics are too high on a longer term. I'm now taking the formulation of 260 billion cfu's/gramm since 2 months.
The scientist team of Theralac recommends a much smaller dose, here's an interesting schedule:

http://www.theralac....spx?selection=6

I think I will reduce my probiotic intake to max. 600 billion cfu's/week.

Fermented foods become increasingly interested....my whole family consumes large amounts of self-made Kombucha which together with Kefir made from goat's milk would be my first choice. Unfortunately there is just very few scientific evidence in the form of serious studies available at present.

I'll put it all in my upcoming paper, "What the probiotic supplement industry doesn't want you to know about fermented foods

Funk, that would be a great idea! Please keep us informed!

[sentrysnipe]

stomach irritation? i may be exaggerating these die off symptoms but do you think you might have leaky gut...? l-glutamine and msm should do the trick

[dayfly]

Maybe you are not exaggerating, that could well be the case! I'm regularly taking MSM, 2-3g per day. I didn't know about the glutamine but already found many sources that support your recommendation! Though there are some like LEF that didn't even mention the healing effect on the leaky gut.
http://search.lef.or.....d=lglutamine

Do you take L-Glutamine yourself? Do you consider the LEF as linked above a good product?

I actually wanted to make a leaky gut syndrom test but my physician told me that there is no real cure nor treatment.

[FunkOdyssey]

I actually wanted to make a leaky gut syndrom test but my physician told me that there is no real cure nor treatment.

The good doctor is completely wrong... unless what he meant to say was there is no FDA-approved drug to reduce intestinal permeability. I'll post more in a bit, but don't worry, there is plenty you can do.

[Brainbox]

Regarding leaky gut, it seems that glutamine could help with that as well. Again, no (multiple) evidence found, didn't have the time for that. But maybe for someone who's in the need for a treatment this could be a startingpoint for research as well.

[sentrysnipe]

Do you take L-Glutamine yourself? Do you consider the LEF as linked above a good product?

Yes I take the Jarrow brand in powdered form (link). I know most if not all of glutamine supps are manufactured in Japan so LEF is equally good, but I need it in a higher dosage (weight training and intestinal perm. prevention). I take 2-4g a day, 2g per serving with water. Scott has posted a comprehensive article on another thread.

[dayfly]

So again...do you consider probiotics as counterproductive for a leaky gut?

I'm now taking the custom probiotics since 2 months, I never had problems so far but only when I took 2 scoops a day. Harry Bronozian, the founder of custom probiotics said everybody has to find the optimal dose. Maybe these die off symptoms just make me feel that 2 scoops are too much for me.

By the way...here's an info regarding the Lactoferrin from AOR:

The lactoferrin in our Lactoferrin 250 is not specifically iron depleted,
but its content is only 0.012% iron as per the assay tests.

[FunkOdyssey]

In the last few days I took two scoops of my custom probiotics formulation per day. One before breakfast and one at bedtime. I actually got stomach irritation and diarrhea. I was wondering if the bacteria count of the custom probiotics are too high on a longer term. I'm now taking the formulation of 260 billion cfu's/gramm since 2 months.
The scientist team of Theralac recommends a much smaller dose, here's an interesting schedule:

http://www.theralac....spx?selection=6

I think I will reduce my probiotic intake to max. 600 billion cfu's/week.

I'm starting to lean this way myself. After some initial improvement on the custom probiotics powder at 2 scoops daily, I've started to regress somewhat, and reducing my intake to 1 scoop daily has not seemed to affect things one way or the other.

I'm going to try theralac for the sake of comparison. Its CFU count is lower but the entire 20 billion CFU are guaranteed to make it safely through the stomach, and growth stimulating factors are included in the formula. It does seem to have more science behind it than custom's "bombs away with 700 billion CFU of bacteria whose specific strains I will not identify". I'll report back with which works better for me.

[sentrysnipe]

So again...do you consider probiotics as counterproductive for a leaky gut?

From what I've read you should tackle the intestinal permeability first before supplementing probiotics, actually treat Candida first then leaky gut. You may have both, I suggest having it officially checked.

[dayfly]

I already got tested but no Candida was found, no fungals were found at all.
Somehow my secreatary IgA levels were elevated and proabably still are. The normal range is from 40 - 204 mg/dL. Mine are 320. I don't know if this is linked to leaky gut. My doctor said it's actually a good sign if the sIgA levels are high, at least it's better than too low levels.

[glexia]

Well...

I take Activia yogurt (one a day) and sometimes organic kefir, but i read in this forums that dairy is not good for health (maybe because casein protein??) and i´m thinking to change to a probiotic like theralac.

I read some post about probiotics in this forum....but i still have doubts about this topic.

Some innovation or new studies about this? [glasses]

[neogenic]

Any more feedback on the probiotic use, several people seemed to be giving some new supps a try. Curious to know the update between theralac, custom probiotics, and Ohhira. I found a great price on the Ohhira formula at $35 for 60 caps.

http://www.luckyvita...5927121251.html

I am suprised no one mentioned Garden of Life's Primal Defense Ultra - Ultimate Probiotic Formula

http://www.luckyvita...8010112352.html

I've been taking it for 2 bottles now and I am very pleased with the results and increase in energy. To cut and paste a section...

How is Primal Defense® ULTRA different from other probiotics?
Primal Defense® ULTRA is the ultimate high potency, broad-spectrum probiotic formula. Three capsules per day provide a 15 billion live cell count of 13 species of beneficial cultures including soil-based probiotics called Homeostatic™ Soil Organisms (HSOs).
HSOs play a positive role in digestive health by supporting a healthy lactic acid bacteria count and healthy pH levels in the gut.*
It contains the probiotic Saccharomyces boulardii which nourishes and supports healthy intestinal epithelium lining integrity, the front line for the body's defense system; and a unique blend of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium probiotics which promote regular bowel function and support immune health.*
Primal Defense ULTRA is delivered via UltraZorbe™ capsules and is packaged in the BioProtect™ Packaging System.

The HSO's are unique here and are worth at least comparing in a reivew of some of the better probiotic formulas.

[Pablo M]

I had tried Garden of Eden soil microbes, and found that stuff disgusting. It was literally dirt. I bought the kind that was loose, not in capsules already. I don't understand why ingesting dirt is something we need to do. That stuff did not make sense to me.

I am suprised no one mentioned Garden of Life's Primal Defense Ultra - Ultimate Probiotic Formula

I must agree with orthomolecular. I would like to systematically refute all of Jordan S. Rubin's claims regarding Primal Defense. I will not be able to do so with the scientific literature, as Rubin's product has absolutely no science behind it. The type of bacteria that people have eaten for centuries comes from fermented dairy such as kefir and yoghurt, more lactic acid bacteria from e.g. sauerkraut and some other types from natto and miso. No culture has ever consumed the soil microbes that Rubin is so in love with. Given his obsession with cleanliness (in his book The Maker's Diet he mentions not eating breakfast until one has had the first bowel movement of the day) it seems funny he would advocate soil microbes, which is akin to shoving dirt-covered vegetables into one's mouth. The people of the Bible, which Rubin's book is supposedly based on, did not eat dirt. There are a few studies that use Primal Defense, but the benefit they found likely results from the fact that Primal Defense contains strains of bacteria that are present in other, more normal probiotics.

[tham]

You need to use something that will kill the yeast instead of just hoping to push them out with lots of good bacteria.

Garlic has activity on candida.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum


L. salivarius, not commonly found in many probiotic formulas,
at least in substantial amounts (let alone a standalone), is
apparently a potent H. pylori inhibitor as well as protein digester. (The protein digesting properties may well
help leaky guts too.)

http://curezone.com/...asp?f=326&i=713

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

It appears this direct-selling firm, R.Garden, was on the
right track. They are probably the only one with a standalone
L. salivarius product.

http://rgarden.dk/la..._salivarius.htm


L. johnsonii La1, also uncommon in popular probiotics,
inhibits H.pylori as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum


L. acidophilus R0052 and L. rhamnosus R0011, used in
Jarrow's products, also has activity on H. pylori.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.medscape....rticle/528893_5

http://www.jarrow.co....php?prodid=123


These two strains in Jarrow's were made by Institute
Roselle in Canada, so there is some assurance of good
quality control.

[ajnast4r]

ohirra seemed good... but made my stomach spasm after i took it. i ended up throwing out the entire b ox because this effect was so unpleasant.

primadophilus is also good, but makes me constipated after a few weeks of daily use...

after funk went on about how the dannon stuff was so good, i went looking for it and found they have a yogurt drink as well: http://www.danactive.com/

unfortionatly this stuff has sugar in it... i have to admit, as it pertains to my digestion, its by far the most consitantly effective probiotic ive taken so far.

[FunkOdyssey]

after funk went on about how the dannon stuff was so good, i went looking for it and found they have a yogurt drink as well: http://www.danactive.com/

unfortionatly this stuff has sugar in it... i have to admit, as it pertains to my digestion, its by far the most consitantly effective probiotic ive taken so far.

See! Told you so! [lol]

primadophilus is also good, but makes me constipated after a few weeks of daily use...

This is exactly what happens to me on traditional probiotics. They are effective for a little while, and then make me constipated.

[neogenic]

Anecdotally, I can say I've improved of it, and liked it more than even Jarrow's probiotic. I may try ohhira's though.

A few Articles that seem for (biased of course) HSO's:

http://www.findartic...Nov/ai_93736412

It has been suggested, that bacteria found in the soil referred to as Homeostatic
Soil Organisms (HSOs), when ingested orally in a probiotic formulation, may have advantages over non-HSO probiotic formulas, due to their ability to implant and survive in the gut. The value of HSOs reportedly lies in promoting positive intestinal function, with corresponding systemic improvements in the patient's overall nutritional, immunological and gastrointestinal status.

It has been postulated, that HSOs were ingested by human beings as part and parcel of their dietary intake, prior to the sanitizing of food products as occurs today in most Western countries. There is increasing evidence that our well-intended attempts at sanitizing our homes and food supply with antimicrobial cleaning solutions, disinfectants and soaps, may be excessive and contributing to immune systems that do not develop healthy responses to outside influences. This lack of challenge to our immune systems is becoming increasingly suspect, in regard to the growing numbers of asthmatic children, raised in the over sanitary conditions unique to the United States.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that a variety of chronic gastrointestinal, allergic, autoimmune and degenerative conditions, can be affected positively by the consistent (3 months or longer) administration of an HSO formulation. This pilot study was undertaken to explore the possible advantages of clinical responses in subjects with a variety of medically unresponsive chronic disease conditions of at least three years' duration.

http://www.findartic..._65/ai_95681514

Jordan was able to regain his health by supplementing the small amount that he could eat with Homeostatic Soil Organisms (HSOs[TM]) (3). Through natural metabolic processes these organisms promote repair of the lining of the intestine, and help to establish a healthier colonic environment. The HSOs detoxified Jordan's intestinal tract, increased his ability to absorb nutrients from food, and super boosted his immune system. Moreover, they became really aggressive against the pathological molds, yeasts, fungi, and parasites of all types that permeated his gut. (4)

[neogenic]

Clearly against or at least skeptical of HSO's:

http://www.raysaheli...lorganisms.html
Soil Organisms by Ray Sahelian, M.D. (natural health information)
I cannot find any human studies with soil organisms or homeostatic soil organisms.

Soil Organisms Emails
Q. Recently, I purchased a product containing bacterial soil organisms. I found an article today by Jini Patel Thompson, author of the book, the "IBD Remission Diet." In the article she quotes Natasha Trenev who she says is a "world renowned expert on microorganisms and maintains one of the largest research libraries on that topic in the world." She says, "Tenev outlines why it is not safe to consume bacterial soil organisms ." She states, "To summarize the research briefly, soil organisms (SO) are spore formers, so they make make good competitors for yeast, fungus and other pathogens. This is why so many people taking soil organisms will initially experience very favorable results. However these spores are are extremely difficult to kill, surviving sterilants, disinfectants, acceleration forces, heat, pressure, radiation and many antibiotics. Strong antibiotics -- like Vancomycin -- can suppress certain spores. Spores are so persistent in the intestines that another round of germination may occur after the the drug is stopped. Soil organisms can also adapt loose genetic material and incorporate it into their cellular structure - the ramifications of which are yet unknown. Various soil organisms can also produce harmful peptides, affecting hemoglobin in the blood. It's important to keep in mind that virtually all antibiotic drugs were were initially developed from soil organisms and as antibiotics become more potent, they cause more damage to the host, not just in the immediate gut environment, but systematically as well. There are simply too many questions and unknowns to sanction the use of soil organisms for human consumption and one can certainly cannot qualify them as safe at this time."
Is this true? I'm very concerned about my health, and, after reading this article, I'm hesitant to take the products I've ordered. There is so much misinformation in the alternative health field that it is hard to know what to believe. I appreciate any assistance you can give in this matter.
A. I have not come across any human studies regarding soil organisms, and hence it appears that any claims made for or against the use of soil organisms are premature and not based on any solid clinical evidence.

Q. I read on a website about homeostatic soil organisms. This is what is says: HSOs optimize the digestive terrain and immune function as they move through the digestive tract and form colonies along the intestinal walls. What is your opinion?
A. I have no idea what it means to call these supplements homeostatic soil organisms. I have not seen any human studies regarding soil organisms let alone homeostatic soil organisms. It appears to me, at first glance, that marketing of this supplement is far, far ahead of any clinical studies.

Q. There is plenty of positive anecdotal comments on homeostatic soil organism according to Jordan Rubin, founder of Garden of Life products. I realize anecdotes do not carry the same weight as carefully controlled research, but it should not be dismissed out of hand. Depending on the sources, this type of information can be very informative.
A. Yes, anecdotes can be helpful, depending on the source and the integrity of the source. It's helpful if the source of the anecdotes is not the person or the company selling the products. If you come across published studies on homeostatic soil organisms, please let us know.

Q. Are homeostatic soil organisms supplement preferable to acidophilus or probiotics for gastrointestinal disorders?
A. Since I have not seen any independent published studies with homeopathic soil organisms, and none comparing homeopathic soil organisms to a probiotic supplement, it is impossible to say.

Q. Dr. Sahelian, I came across marketing information about a product called Primal Defense. The person at the health food store who was trying to sell it to me claimed that HSO homeostatic soil organisms make this a unique product better than prebiotics or probiotics on the market. What are your thoughts about Primal Defense? They also say something about Poten-Zyme and ionic plant based minerals. It was confusing. I wanted your opinion since I trust what you say.
A. I prefer not to comment products from other companies, but I can comment about ingredients in products. It appears that this product has probiotics and HSO homeostatic soil organisms. I have no idea what they mean by homeostatic, it appears to be a marketing sales term, I also have no idea what they mean about Poten-Zyme, and Ionic plant based minerals. What do they mean about 'Ionic' plant based minerals? The word ionic used in this context makes no sense to me as a medical doctor with a bachelor's of science degree in Nutrition. Perhaps someone reading this web page can explain to me what Poten-Zyme or ionic plant based minerals are. As to other ingredients in Primal Defense, it appears to have good probiotics such as lactobacilli and bifidobacterium. But then again, there are countless good probiotic products available but many different companies.