326 replies to this topic

[able]

 

 

Found this at RevGenetics (not bad considering other suppliers pricing):

Advanced NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide 50 Mg Per Serving - 30 Servings - 60 Capsules Price: $37.95
https://www.revgenet...nucleotide.aspx

It is most likely junk.

 
 
COA http://www.longecity...attach_id=14587

 

 
 
People on this forum are so smart I do not understand how they let egregious misinformation pass.  The HPLC test of NMN being sold in the link above was found to be niacinamide USP39.  That is not NMN.  As far as I can tell true NMN is still not commercially available.  Obviously with the right connections one can get access to the stuff, but I'm not sure I see the point especially when one considers the instability of NMN.  NR is available and cheap and to date animal model research shows the results of NR supplementation to be almost identical to NMN supplementation.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm...63/pdf/main.pdf

 

 
 
Where do you find proof that the rev genetics NMN  was actually niaciniamide?
 
Although they are similar, NMN and NR are clearly not the same ingredient, and do have different effects.  
 
It is very likely both will prove effective for reaching different tissues, or perhaps in combination, as both Dr Brenner and Dr Sinclair have suggested.

Edited by Michael, 15 November 2017 - 05:53 PM.
trim quotes

[Anthony_Loera]

2Sunny,

 

please contact Douglas Nickelson at Intertek, the 3rd party lab that developed the proprietary assay to test nicotinamide mononucleotide for RevGenetics:

douglas.nickelson (at) intertek.com

 

Slander of Intertek, an internationally renowned laboratory that does our 3rd party testing, is quite egregious. 

 

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 15 November 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

For those left wondering about Intertek NMN testing.

 

Currently, there is no USP test method freely available to test Nicotinamide Mononucleotide easily. We contacted Intertek, as we needed lots of samples tested. Intertek then got to work and developed a new proprietary method for their company to test for this material (In the end Intertek decided to do this new research without asking us to pay for it). We believe these reports to be very accurate as high priced lab NMN samples have been tested using their proprietary method, while also "dirt cheap nmn" from China has also been tested and failed.

 

So, In the future, If you see NMN lab reports from Intertek, you can thank RevGenetics for pushing them to research and develop the method that everyone is using. 

 

As far as I know, Intertek is the only lab offering accurate NMN testing at this time.

 

A

 

PS. Although it is for information purposes, the following will be taken after a couple of days as it contains emails between RevGenetics and Intertek. In the future, if you don't see the emails below, you can contact Intertek directly to know their method is accurate for NMN testing. The emails show that I DID ask Intertek for their proprietary method and because they developed it... I was denied the method (see screenshots). However, the emails below assure folks that the method accurately reports NMN.

 

============================================================

In a previous email exchange I asked about the method they were using.

 

I got this reply:

 Intertek-email1.png   89.97KB   1 downloads

 

This is today,

I sent an email to help clarify in simple terms, what the method tested:

 Intertek-email2.png   56.34KB   1 downloads

 

This is today again,

Intertek's reply that shows the method tests for NMN:

 Intertek-email3.png   77.12KB   1 downloads

 

 

============================================================

 

 

If anyone has any more questions, please contact Intertek, as I have nothing more to say on this subject.

 

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 15 November 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[Michael]

 

It is put together by a long term Longecity member. Please back up your statement.
 
That I know of, the contents or their products have been shown to be what they claim they are .  They show COA's.
 
natasjlp, If I were looking at NMN, I would try
Advanced NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide 50 Mg Per Serving - 30 Servings - 60 Capsules Price: $37.95
https://www.revgenet...nucleotide.aspx

COA http://www.longecity...attach_id=14587

 
 
People on this forum are so smart I do not understand how they let egregious misinformation pass.  The HPLC test of NMN being sold in the link above was found to be niacinamide USP39.  That is not NMN.

 

I believe you're likely misreading this. I expect you're drawing that conclusion based on these lines:
 
ß-Nicotinamide mononucleotide                                    50.66 mg/serving

USP 39 Niacinamide Mod. (HPLC-U

 
It's not perfectly clear, but that seems reasonably clearly to be saying that it's NMN. If you look at the headings for the columns, the left column reads "Analysis Performed / Method". The analysis performed is for ß-Nicotinamide mononucleotide, using the USP 39 monograph for Niacinamide "Mod.". Since they're still reporting this as NMN, I'm assuming that the "Mod." means "modified" — that is, they've adapted the USP method for NAM for NMN.
 
Assuming that I'm interpreting that correctly, the lab is at least saying it's NMN. Determining how valid that adaptation is would require an analytical chemist getting into the weeds with the lab and/or them releasing that modified method.
 

I'm not sure I see the point especially when one considers the instability of NMN.

What is your evidence that all forms of NMN are unstable? Until GSK and/or Dartmouth came up with a stable chloride salt, all previous attempts to make NR were unmanageably hygroscopic, including a previous chloride salt.
  

NR is available and cheap and to date animal model research shows the results of NR supplementation to be almost identical to NMN supplementation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...63/pdf/main.pdf

This is an in vitro test with myotubes — not a strong basis for claiming equivalence after oral supplementation. (Of course, Chromadex has played the converse game with the constant harping about NMN needing to be converted to NR to cross the plasma membrane). And NR is not cheap.

Edited by Michael, 15 November 2017 - 06:20 PM.

[stefan_001]

that's interesting information that there is a lack of test method for NMN. That makes one to wonder what the COA from Alive By Nature means  as they claim a company called Summit Laboratories has validated their NMN. See picture in attachment.

 

Attached Files

•  ABN.jpg   145.31KB   2 downloads

[able]

The continual bashing of anything that is not Chromadex is really sad and childish.

 

Do you really believe Intertek is the only company that can figure out how to test this?

 

Intertek even says it was "not a major modification".

 

And I see on their site, alivebynature says they are in the process of getting NSF certified.  Maybe you missed it - it is right above the  coa you copied and pasted here.

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

A COA just shows that they could get a sample that is "good", but doesn't prove they used that "pure" ingredient in the finished product.  

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the NSF cert sounds like real proof of quality, which is what HPN does and why I always trust them more than others.

 

Anyways, can we please just stick to the science - does NMN work?

 

 

 

Edited by able, 16 November 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[ryukenden]

The continual bashing of anything that is not Chromadex is really sad and childish.

 

Do you really believe Intertek is the only company that can figure out how to test this?

 

Intertek even says it was "not a major modification".

 

And I see on their site, alivebynature says they are in the process of getting NSF certified.  Maybe you missed it - it is right above the  coa you copied and pasted here.

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

A COA just shows that they could get a sample that is "good", but doesn't prove they used that "pure" ingredient in the finished product.  

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the NSF cert sounds like real proof of quality, which is what HPN does and why I always trust them more than others.

 

Anyways, can we please just stick to the science - does NMN work?

 

When I look at the composition, it appears including both NMN (125 mg) and nicotinamide (230 mg). Does it include both NMN and NR OR NMN plus nicotinamide?

[LawrenceW]

Hello Able.

 

From my personal experience I can definitely say that NMN works.

 

Can anyone please comment on the drop in my levels of C-reactive protein, interleukin-6 and tumor necrosis factor while on NMN? I have been told that is a very good thing and have read some recently released studies that all point to drops in CRP, IL-6, TNF and reduction of inflammation as carrying significant health benefits.

 

Please see the attached studies

 

These were too big to upload, so here are the links to those studies.

 

Yasumichi Arai

 

Alecja Putcha

 

 

Attached Files

•  Astrakhantseva IV 2014 TNF and autoimmune diseases.pdf   1.35MB   1 downloads
•  Bettcher B 2014 IL6 age and Brain.pdf   428.74KB   2 downloads
•  Bettcher BM 2015 inflammation and white matter.pdf   715.24KB   1 downloads
•  Immune markers predicting death.pdf   615.22KB   1 downloads
•  Lee BT 2015 TNF and IL6 and kidney disease.pdf   353.84KB   1 downloads
•  Lee JK 2012 IL-6 and death.pdf   92.76KB   1 downloads
•  Ridker PM 2000 IL6 and vascular disease.pdf   365.28KB   2 downloads
•  Ridker PM 2017 Antiinflammatory Therapy with Canakinumab .pdf   386.42KB   1 downloads
•  Varadhan R 2014.pdf   1.45MB   1 downloads

Edited by LawrenceW, 16 November 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[able]

Thanks Lawrence - some good reading to dig into.

 

I have no medical training or knowledge beyond what I've read of research.  

 

So I will leave it to others who are more knowledgable and  can hopefully weigh in on your numbers and how significant they are or aren't.

 

But I am very happy to see the improved markers of inflammation in your experience, and hoping we'll see more of such soon from studies of NR due any day, and later on NMN.

 

Although anecdotes are not evidence, it might be interesting to hear from others who have tried NMN.

 

 

Edited by able, 16 November 2017 - 04:40 PM.

[stefan_001]

The continual bashing of anything that is not Chromadex is really sad and childish.

 

Do you really believe Intertek is the only company that can figure out how to test this?

 

Intertek even says it was "not a major modification".

 

And I see on their site, alivebynature says they are in the process of getting NSF certified.  Maybe you missed it - it is right above the  coa you copied and pasted here.

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

A COA just shows that they could get a sample that is "good", but doesn't prove they used that "pure" ingredient in the finished product.  

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the NSF cert sounds like real proof of quality, which is what HPN does and why I always trust them more than others.

 

Anyways, can we please just stick to the science - does NMN work?

 

able:

1) please familiarize yourself with the first post by the OP of this thread. I think the topic is clearly about NMN products, not science

2) Alive By nature sells NMN at 1/4 of the price of Revgenetics. Fair to ask questions I think

3) As a Chromadex shareholder the collapse of NMN pricing and quality perception by cowboys like ABN is great. It will prevent any serious parties from investing in NMN and its research.

4) you greatly over estimate the reach of this forum. The user base for either NMN or NR will be driven via other channels.

5) are you affiliated with alive by nature as you always react so irritated?

 

Edited by stefan_001, 16 November 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[able]

 

The continual bashing of anything that is not Chromadex is really sad and childish.

 

Do you really believe Intertek is the only company that can figure out how to test this?

 

Intertek even says it was "not a major modification".

 

And I see on their site, alivebynature says they are in the process of getting NSF certified.  Maybe you missed it - it is right above the  coa you copied and pasted here.

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

A COA just shows that they could get a sample that is "good", but doesn't prove they used that "pure" ingredient in the finished product.  

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the NSF cert sounds like real proof of quality, which is what HPN does and why I always trust them more than others.

 

Anyways, can we please just stick to the science - does NMN work?

 

able:

1) please familiarize yourself with the first post by the OP of this thread. I think the topic is clearly about NMN products, not science

2) Alive By nature sells NMN at 1/4 of the price of Revgenetics. Fair to ask questions I think

3) As a Chromadex shareholder the collapse of NMN pricing and quality perception by cowboys like ABN is great. It will prevent any serious parties from investing in NMN and its research.

4) you greatly over estimate the reach of this forum. The user base for either NMN or NR will be driven via other channels.

5) are you affiliated with alive by nature as you always react so irritated?

 

 

1.  Yes, threads often weave.  I am just trying to keep them on track about NMN - not products, that should be discussed in other places.

2.  Yes, threads often weave.  I am just trying to keep them on track about NMN - not products, that should be discussed in other places.

3.  Eh, if NMN works, there will be plenty of competition.

4. Exactly right. I don't believe we make any difference at all to the price of your Chromadex shares, which is exactly why I think these diversion are silly.

5.  No.   I got irritated when you try to disprove Lawrence, when someone else attacked Revgenics, and a few other times people  stray from the topic due to their bias. 

 

I really like NR, but am intrigued by NMN also.   I'm sorry if I got a little cranky.  I'm glad you are much more restrained than Mikedc, and you do contribute thoughtfully many times, but just wish we wouldn't clutter up discussions so much.

 

Edited by able, 16 November 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Harkijn]

 

 

2) Alive By nature sells NMN at 1/4 of the price of Revgenetics. Fair to ask questions I think

 

Yes, but direct your questions to every party involved. NMN has been hugely overpriced in the past 5 or so years, so it's not so special that prices start to slump dramatically.

[stefan_001]

 

 

The continual bashing of anything that is not Chromadex is really sad and childish.

 

Do you really believe Intertek is the only company that can figure out how to test this?

 

Intertek even says it was "not a major modification".

 

And I see on their site, alivebynature says they are in the process of getting NSF certified.  Maybe you missed it - it is right above the  coa you copied and pasted here.

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

A COA just shows that they could get a sample that is "good", but doesn't prove they used that "pure" ingredient in the finished product.  

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the NSF cert sounds like real proof of quality, which is what HPN does and why I always trust them more than others.

 

Anyways, can we please just stick to the science - does NMN work?

 

able:

1) please familiarize yourself with the first post by the OP of this thread. I think the topic is clearly about NMN products, not science

2) Alive By nature sells NMN at 1/4 of the price of Revgenetics. Fair to ask questions I think

3) As a Chromadex shareholder the collapse of NMN pricing and quality perception by cowboys like ABN is great. It will prevent any serious parties from investing in NMN and its research.

4) you greatly over estimate the reach of this forum. The user base for either NMN or NR will be driven via other channels.

5) are you affiliated with alive by nature as you always react so irritated?

 

 

1.  Yes, threads often weave.  I am just trying to keep them on track about NMN - not products, that should be discussed in other places.

2.  Yes, threads often weave.  I am just trying to keep them on track about NMN - not products, that should be discussed in other places.

3.  Eh, if NMN works, there will be plenty of competition.

4. Exactly right. I don't believe we make any difference at all to the price of your Chromadex shares, which is exactly why I think these diversion are silly.

5.  No.   I got irritated when you try to disprove Lawrence, when someone else attacked Revgenics, and a few other times people  stray from the topic due to their bias. 

 

I really like NR, but am intrigued by NMN also.   I'm sorry if I got a little cranky.  I'm glad you are much more restrained than Mikedc, and you do contribute thoughtfully many times, but just wish we wouldn't clutter up discussions so much.

 

 

1)+2) You are not keeping this thread on track, the original topic is about products. 3) Ofcourse NMN works, as I have said multiple times they have large overlap. I am planning to actually test it myself the moment there is a product that has IND or GRASS 4) I didn't make a diversion, the thread was discussing a product already inline with the first post 5) I didn't try to disprove Lawrence you are seeing ghosts, I said the dosing is extreme.

 

I am tired of getting commented about the fact that I have Chromadex shares which I mentioned as transparency. Moreover most discussions here are about getting NMN or NR cheaper, in other words its about money. How hypocrite is that..

 

[stefan_001]

 

 

 

2) Alive By nature sells NMN at 1/4 of the price of Revgenetics. Fair to ask questions I think

 

Yes, but direct your questions to every party involved. NMN has been hugely overpriced in the past 5 or so years, so it's not so special that prices start to slump dramatically.

 

 

You can buy NMN already for years at bargain prices in China. You must have noticed that the price levels in places like Amazon are rather different. Perhaps there is a reason for that.
 

[Harkijn]

 

 

Stefan said:

 

You can buy NMN already for years at bargain prices in China. You must have noticed that the price levels in places like Amazon are rather different. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

 

Harkijn: 

 

Anyone rushing to Alibaba now: standards are different there.....
 

 

[stefan_001]

 

 

 

Stefan said:

 

You can buy NMN already for years at bargain prices in China. You must have noticed that the price levels in places like Amazon are rather different. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

 

Harkijn:

 

Anyone rushing to Alibaba now: standards are different there.....
 

 

 

 

That's right. Hence my comment about the fact we just learned there is no standard test for NMN....but we are seeing companies claiming they have high NMN

[LawrenceW]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's right. Hence my comment about the fact we just learned there is no standard test for NMN....

 

 

Au contraire mon ami.

 

We have already identified 14 U.S. labs that can do NMN testing.  The problem is the cost, but we are already paying a fraction of what we were paying a couple of years ago.

[Michael]

 

 

 

Anyone rushing to Alibaba now: standards are different [in China].....

 

That's right. Hence my comment about the fact we just learned there is no standard test for NMN....

 

Au contraire mon ami.

 

We have already identified 14 U.S. labs that can do NMN testing.  The problem is the cost, but we are already paying a fraction of what we were paying a couple of years ago.

 

 

The existence of multiple labs claiming to be able to test NMN does not mean there is a standard test: one validated and ring-tested by a recognized professional organization like USP or AOAC. As just noted, Intertek says they worked up theirs from the nicotinamide standard, but won't disclose the actual method; we have no idea at all what Summit Nutritional Laboratories is doing, or about how valid these or any other tests are.

 

This is, unfortunately, rife in the minimally-regulated US supplement industry. People put out goodness knows how many novel molecules and herbs every year, but there are standards for only a fraction of what's being sold — overwhelmingly for things that have been around for a long time and are widely used in the scientific, agricultural, or supplement markets. In a sane world, you would have to have a validated and publicly-disclosed way to test that what you say is in your product is actually there before you could start selling it.
 

[Harkijn]

Yes, and since there is no standard test it would not be easy for say chinese vendors to adhere to it even if they would or could....

[LawrenceW]

My recollection is that nicotinamide stops the sirtuin reaction that we want to turn on and keep on. We make sure nicotinamide is not in the solution we take.  NMN is made by combining Nicotinamide with PRPP with an enzyme. The nicotinamide that has not reacted is completely removed. 

[stefan_001]

Yes, and since there is no standard test it would not be easy for say chinese vendors to adhere to it even if they would or could....

 

or companies that import ingredients from China and make a product/supplement out of that (injecting in capsule with fillers) in EU / US and sell it as US or EU made.

Edited by stefan_001, 16 November 2017 - 08:16 PM.

[able]

No standardized test.

 

Does that mean the 14 companies egaceutical has identified might find great variety in results and we can't be sure what % of NMN they actually  get from the manufacturer?

 

Maybe 70, 80, 90% ?

 

Or does it mean it might really be just straight NAM?

 

Is the testing worthless?

 

Do these testing companies have any liability when they sign their name to results?

 

What about NSF?  I thought they were a true assurance of quality and is why I switched from Thorne to HPN - is that meaningless also, or is it just that NMN is too new and we will know more next year?

[LawrenceW]

Sorry, I am not the scientist.  But from what I have been told, the very first thing they test for is NMN content, then purity.  If those two pass, then they run the rest of the tests. All that I can tell you is that we don't accept anything that is less than 98% pure.  In the early days, the batches were generally 98% to 99%.  In the last year we have not seen anything at less than 99.5%.

[Heisok]

If the confidence in these NMN tests is low, then I only see a few steps or more which could help.

 

1. Only deal with reputable sources who show COA from a specific testing lab.

2. Evaluate the labs one is looking at as the testers. Their reputation? Their breadth of tests? Their technology? Their time in business?

3. Consider the reputation, expertise and experience with dealing with labs of the vendor.

 

 

[able]

Eh, seems a lot easier and more sure to just buy a bottle and send off to a trusted lab for testing.

 

Anthony sent off sample of fractal health to intertek and found it had something like 5% nmn.

 

Anyone know is Intertek a leading, trusted lab?  How much does testing cost?

 

 

[stefan_001]

I dont like to say it as 95% of this board will hate it and tag this with negative ratings but dont be surprised that in a year or so the only FDA approved NMN version on the market, with IPR on the manufacturing method, will be from Chromadex. But at least you can trust their quality .

Edited by stefan_001, 16 November 2017 - 10:55 PM.

[TMNMK]

So Chromadex is going to patent this (rhetorical of course).. https://www.research...60e06000000.pdf

 

Interesting that they're using that route

Edited by TMNMK, 16 November 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[stefan_001]

So Chromadex is going to patent this (rhetorical of course).. https://www.research...60e06000000.pdf

 

Interesting that they're using that route

 

That method hasn't led to good priced, high purity NMN.

[TMNMK]

 

So Chromadex is going to patent this (rhetorical of course).. https://www.research...60e06000000.pdf

 

Interesting that they're using that route

 

That method hasn't led to good priced, high purity NMN.

 

 

That is likely true stefan_001! Enzymatic synthesis would definitely not be my first approach, especially if I were gearing up for larger production. 

[stefan_001]

 

 

So Chromadex is going to patent this (rhetorical of course).. https://www.research...60e06000000.pdf

 

Interesting that they're using that route

 

That method hasn't led to good priced, high purity NMN.

 

 

That is likely true stefan_001! Enzymatic synthesis would definitely not be my first approach, especially if I were gearing up for larger production. 

 

 

If you listen to the latest Q conference call you can hear that they target other NAD+ boosting compounds in addition to NR. One of them I expect to be around anthocyanins by fighting metabolic syndrome. But it wouldnt surprise me they will also tackle NMN and really why wouldn't they?