326 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

<Deleted>

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 September 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[Iporuru]

NASA wants to alter DNA of Mars crew: https://www.thetimes...-crew-l2qwg0rx3

 

"One of the eperimental DNA therapies whose progress Nasa is monitoring closely is a compound called NMN, which is expected to enter clinical trials this autumn after effectively rejuvenating old mice in laboratory tests"

[LawrenceW]

I am a 59 year old male living in Southern California.  I was one of the participants in a human trials study of NMN from July 2015 until May 2016.  I also participated in a trial of NR beginning June 2017 for 3 months and am now back on the NMN. All that I can say is that I experienced dramatic improvements physically and in almost all aspects of my blood chemistry while on the NMN and zero changes or improvements while on the NR. To quote my GP when she reviewed my blood panels after taking the NMN for 6 months, "you've got the blood of a 25 year old".

[able]

I am a 59 year old male living in Southern California.  I was one of the participants in a human trials study of NMN from July 2015 until May 2016.  I also participated in a trial of NR beginning June 2017 for 3 months and am now back on the NMN. All that I can say is that I experienced dramatic improvements physically and in almost all aspects of my blood chemistry while on the NMN and zero changes or improvements while on the NR. To quote my GP when she reviewed my blood panels after taking the NMN for 6 months, "you've got the blood of a 25 year old".

 

 

Were you lucky to have been accepted into 2 such studies, or do you have connections in industry?  It seems an extraordinary coincidence.

 

Especially since there are no human trials of NMN yet completed, unless it was not registered.  Please enlighten us with some details.

[Heisok]

LawrenceW,

 

It seems many studies have relatively high doses. If you can not share other details, would you at least share your NMN dosing as you still take it seperate from a study which might have restrictions to information release.

 

Thanks

Edited by Heisok, 11 November 2017 - 02:55 AM.

[LawrenceW]

The NMN study was this one.  https://www.egaceuti...pleted-studies/

 

The NR study was simply a group of us taking 500mg of Niagen twice per day for 3 months with full blood panels before and after to see if the results realized with NMN could be duplicated with NR.  

[LawrenceW]

Hello Heisok.

 

My daily NMN dosage was 1 gram per 28 lbs of body weight.  I weighed 210, so 7.5 grams per day. Half was taken in the AM about 1.5 hours after my usual waking time and the other half was taken in the evening about 3 hours prior to my usual going to sleep time.

 

My daily dosage of NR was 1 gram with 500mg taken on the same schedule as my NMN dosing.

[Heisok]

deleted original.

 

Thanks for the dosing.

Edited by Heisok, 11 November 2017 - 03:07 AM.

[able]

Hello Heisok.

 

My daily NMN dosage was 1 gram per 28 lbs of body weight.  I weighed 210, so 7.5 grams per day. Half was taken in the AM about 1.5 hours after my usual waking time and the other half was taken in the evening about 3 hours prior to my usual going to sleep time.

 

My daily dosage of NR was 1 gram with 500mg taken on the same schedule as my NMN dosing.

 

Please understand there will be great skepticism with a newly registered contributor posting information that is not verifiable.

 

I say this because it would be a disservice to all if this devolves into flame wars and any contributions you may be able to share is disregarded.

 

Maybe I'm missing it, but so far can't find any details on the completed study on https://www.egaceutical.com/studies/.   Is  there any other place with details?

 

7.5 grams a day of NMN, plus 1 gram of NR?   wow, a huge dose.   

Edited by able, 11 November 2017 - 03:26 AM.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Heisok.

 

To your original question.  "To summarize, after three months on the NMN alone, the effects of NMN wore off"  The study with the next 11 ,  was a combination product.

 

Is that relevant to NMN only supplementation?

 

First a disclaimer.  I am not a scientist, I am in the alternative energy sector and an anti-aging enthusiast.  I am also a long time personal friend of the fellow that put together the NMN study.

 

Yes, as it was explained to me, that after the first while a biological feedback loop sets in and most of the NMN is simply excreted. There were still benefits but not nearly as dramatic as those experienced in the first month. The scientists then came up with 2 additional supplements that kept the receptors open and we went back to enjoying the full benefits.  SInce that time Sinclair came out with his 500 mg dosage twice per day and it was again explained to me that the belief is that the biological feedback loop is triggered at a dosage slightly higher than that of Sinclair's dosage.  The belief is the trigger may be somewhere around 1.5 grams per day. We have several individuals that will be starting on the 500mg dosing in 2 weeks.  I will keep you posted as to their results.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@Lawrence, you state that the time interval of your NMN (and combo) experiment was "from July 2015 until May 2016" and that you started a 3-month test of NR starting in June 2017.

 

Were you taking NMN (or combination product) after May 2016? If so, for what duration?

 

If you actually did, indeed, continue with the NMN (or combination product) through June 2017 wouldn't it be expected that your physical improvements and those aspects of your blood chemistry which improved with NMN (or combo) to have remained at, or near, the NMN-or-combo-product-induced improved levels for the start of your NR experiment? And, therefore, wouldn't it be somewhat unreasonable to expect significant additional improvement as a result of your 3-month NR test while starting from such a "dramatic" baseline attributed to the NMN (and/or combo)?

 

If you did stop the NMN (or combo) in May 2016 it begs the question--why?, since you state that: "All that I can say is that I experienced dramatic improvements physically and in almost all aspects of my blood chemistry...".

 

What were your baseline blood test results at the start of your NR experiment in comparison to the results after 3 months of NR?

 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 11 November 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[stefan_001]

7.5gram NMN per day...... that's equivalent to a months supply of NR at 250mg / day. And that was done for 10 months?

[Turnbuckle]

Hello Heisok.

 

My daily NMN dosage was 1 gram per 28 lbs of body weight.  I weighed 210, so 7.5 grams per day. Half was taken in the AM about 1.5 hours after my usual waking time and the other half was taken in the evening about 3 hours prior to my usual going to sleep time.

 

My daily dosage of NR was 1 gram with 500mg taken on the same schedule as my NMN dosing.

 

7.5 grams vs 1 gram--that's a huge difference. And considering NMN breaks down into NR and NR into nicotinamide, there is likely no other reason for the difference. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 11 November 2017 - 12:06 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Did you know the experiences of anyone else in the trials?

 

(pretty sure MikeDC is just going around marking everything threatening chromadex as pointless timewasting).

[ryukenden]

Interesting. Did you do any DNA methylation test before and after NMN?

[LawrenceW]

@Lawrence, you state that the time interval of your NMN (and combo) experiment was "from July 2015 until May 2016" and that you started a 3-month test of NR starting in June 2017.

 

Were you taking NMN (or combination product) after May 2016? If so, for what duration?

 

If you actually did, indeed, continue with the NMN (or combination product) through June 2017 wouldn't it be expected that your physical improvements and those aspects of your blood chemistry which improved with NMN (or combo) to have remained at, or near, the NMN-or-combo-product-induced improved levels for the start of your NR experiment? And, therefore, wouldn't it be somewhat unreasonable to expect significant additional improvement as a result of your 3-month NR test while starting from such a "dramatic" baseline attributed to the NMN (and/or combo)?

 

If you did stop the NMN (or combo) in May 2016 it begs the question--why?, since you state that: "All that I can say is that I experienced dramatic improvements physically and in almost all aspects of my blood chemistry...".

 

What were your baseline blood test results at the start of your NR experiment in comparison to the results after 3 months of NR?

 

Good morning Advocatus Diaboli.

 

To clarify the timeline.

 

April 5, 2015 - Annual physical with full blood panels used as my baseline for NMN.

 

July 11, 2015 to May 5, 2016 - on NMN at 3,700 mg twice per day.

 

May 6, 2016 to June 21, 2017 - No NMN and no NR.  

 

Jan. 6, 2016 - Annual physical and full blood panels at 6 months into NMN. This was used for my NMN results.

 

Jan. 22, 2017 - Annual physical and full blood panel. This was used to determine long term effects of NMN after not having taken any NMN for 8 months. also used this blood work as my baseline for my NR experiment.

 

June 22, 2017 to Aug. 27, 2017 - on NR at 500 mg twice per day.

 

Aug. 28, 2017 - full blood panel.  This was my NR results blood work and I am also using it for my current NMN baseline.

 

Sept. 22, 2017 - began my current NMN regimen

 

The medical supervisors required that we stop taking the NMN for at least 8 months after the original trial.  They wanted to monitor for lasting long term benefits. It was also to determine whether the NMN could be taken for so many months and then not taken for so many months or if it was going to be recommended that it is simply taken until something better comes along.

[LawrenceW]

 

Hello Heisok.

 

My daily NMN dosage was 1 gram per 28 lbs of body weight.  I weighed 210, so 7.5 grams per day. Half was taken in the AM about 1.5 hours after my usual waking time and the other half was taken in the evening about 3 hours prior to my usual going to sleep time.

 

My daily dosage of NR was 1 gram with 500mg taken on the same schedule as my NMN dosing.

 

Please understand there will be great skepticism with a newly registered contributor posting information that is not verifiable.

 

I say this because it would be a disservice to all if this devolves into flame wars and any contributions you may be able to share is disregarded.

 

Maybe I'm missing it, but so far can't find any details on the completed study on https://www.egaceutical.com/studies/.   Is  there any other place with details?

 

7.5 grams a day of NMN, plus 1 gram of NR?   wow, a huge dose.   

 

 

Hello Able.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

To clarify, I took only NMN during the NMN trial and only NR during the NR experiment.  I didn't take either for a 13 month duration in between the NMN and the NR.

 

The 7,5 gram per day dose was calculated by taking Dr. Sinclair's dose of 500mg/kg that he injected in to the mice in his Dec. 2013 study and converting that to the human equivalent orally administered dose of 1 gram per 28 pounds of body weight.

[LawrenceW]

7.5gram NMN per day...... that's equivalent to a months supply of NR at 250mg / day. And that was done for 10 months?

 

Hello Stephan 001

 

The 7.5 grams per day of NMN was extrapolated from Dr. Sinclair's injecting 500 mg/kg in to the mice in his Dec. 2013 study. What is the 250mg / day dose of NR based on?

[LawrenceW]

Did you know the experiences of anyone else in the trials?

 

(pretty sure MikeDC is just going around marking everything threatening chromadex as pointless timewasting).

 

Good morning Nate 2004.

 

Yes, as I am the one that gathered all of the participants for our group buy of NMN, I stayed in close contact with all of them.  I must maintain confidentiality on their bloodwork results but I can share with you that we all experienced similar yet unique results and benefits.  None experienced any side affects, other than a rapid slimming of our wallets. Now that the supply of NMN has been re-established and at a much better price than back in 2015, we are all back on the NMN with several wives and friends also joining.

[LawrenceW]

Interesting. Did you do any DNA methylation test before and after NMN?

 

We did not, but I believe that Joel did.  Joel is the molecular biologist that took the NMN for 6 months prior to our group beginning.  He did this under very close medical supervision with monthly testing that was much more detailed than the testing we went through.  The first 6 months was simply looking for any and all side affects and did not focus on the benefits.

[stefan_001]

Hi Lawrence, its a pity you did not take a blood panel before starting NR. Now you do not know your baseline or even whether the NMN effects lasted. When you compare the August blood panel to the January panel are things worse, equal, better? That will give us some data even if contaminatd with NR use.

7.5 gram of NMN is really extreme, you must have bought from China otherwise prices for this trial would run into 30k per person per month. I find it somewhat unfortunate that you have a need to so quickly restart new regiments. Mega dosing would not lead to system reversal it seems. Could you please share what differences do you notice that compelled you to start a new regiment?

[LawrenceW]

Hello Stephan.

 

I have been tracking my blood tests for many years.  Comparing one test against the next is nice, but being able to track trends over many years is much better. Please see attached.

 

The April 2015 test is my baseline for NMN.  Jan. 2016 is after taking NMN for 6 months. Jan. 2017 is after not taking NMN for 8 months and 5 months before I began taking NR. Aug. 2017 is after taking NR for 3 months.

 

 

Attached Files

•  LW Lab results.xls   51.5KB   179 downloads

Edited by LawrenceW, 11 November 2017 - 07:31 PM.

[LawrenceW]

7.5 gram of NMN is really extreme, you must have bought from China otherwise prices for this trial would run into 30k per person per month. I find it somewhat unfortunate that you have a need to so quickly restart new regiments. Mega dosing would not lead to system reversal it seems. Could you please share what differences do you notice that compelled you to start a new regiment?

 

Hello Stephan.

 

Not quite that bad.  In 2015 we were getting it for $35 per gram.  When we had to stop the NMN program, we were not too concerned as our benefits had settled into what I can best describe as the new normal.  First thing was that no one reported any signs of withdrawal, so it did not appear to be physically addicting.  About 3 weeks later I started to notice the arthritis returning to my knuckles and losing some of the flexibility in my joints. I also noticed that my sleep wasn't as sound and thorough as it was on NMN.  Within 2 months of quitting I was really starting to feel my age again.  During the NMN program we commented to each other that it was not the fountain of youth but it was definitely the fountain of 30 something.  30 something felt absolutely great to my 57 year old body. While on the NMN, I first lost about 20 pounds of belly fat and then put on about 15 pounds of muscle.  After we quit I noticed that the belly fat was starting to return but by keeping really active at the gym I was able to retain my added muscle mass. Early on Dr. Sinclair had predicted that NMN would reverse muscle wasting and I would concur with that prediction.

 

When it came time to restart our anti-aging regimens, I had already done a bunch of research on NR and thought that if the NR could give us the same results at a much better price that it was definitely worthwhile trying.  So we bought a 3 months supply and began taking it.  None of us noticed any of the physical benefits that we got from the NMN and when we got our blood tests back we decided that it was time to get back on the NMN.

 

 

Edited by LawrenceW, 11 November 2017 - 07:53 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@Lawrence, your blood tests suggest that you may have started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in 2017, which might account for the rises in testosterone level, PSA, hematocrit, blood glucose. and RBC (among other indications). TRT would have confounded your NR experiment.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 11 November 2017 - 07:55 PM.

[Heisok]

Thanks for sharing LawrenceW. I am very concerned with your increases in PSA. .52 to .7 to 1.2. Seems pretty rapid.

[LawrenceW]

All the participants recorded rises in their testosterone while on NMN.  I noticed that uptick after NR and thought that that might be one of the benefits of NR. The markers that the doctors were most interested in tracking were the inflammation indicators of C-reactive protein, tumor necrosis factor and IL-6.  There have been many recent studies linking elevations of these markers to the diseases of age and aging itself.

[LawrenceW]

Thanks for sharing LawrenceW. I am very concerned with your increases in PSA. .52 to .7 to 1.2. Seems pretty rapid.

 

Thanks and so am I.  My followup blood test is scheduled for Dec. 7 and I will be bringing this up with my doctor.  Her main concern was the HgB A1C number hitting 6.4.  She wanted to put me on Metformin right then, but seeing as I had experienced a nice drop on my A1C number the first time around she agreed to wait until the Dec. 7 test comes back.

[stefan_001]

Hi Lawrence,

The first bloodpanel after stopping NMN for 8 months is already showing heightening in testosterone, PSA and it also shows increase in RBC, hematocrit and hemoglobine. Are you sure that you have not started TRT as mentioned by Diaboli? Or have you been on TRT for long time and the NMN mega dosing has suppressed the side effects?

Edited by stefan_001, 11 November 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Stephan.

 

No TRT ever. You guys have me worried.  Is this something that I should be concerned about?

Edited by LawrenceW, 11 November 2017 - 09:34 PM.

[stefan_001]

Ok understood. Any blood panel experts on the forum having a view on this?

Don't be worried, on this forum everything is put under a magnifying glass. Its interesting because you have done such mega dosing for so long time.

Edited by stefan_001, 11 November 2017 - 09:41 PM.