2284 replies to this topic

[whileitravel]

Been quiet here of late. I've been doing the protocol while awake or before exercise rather than before sleep and have experienced a noticeably increase in energy. I'm able to get through my HIIT without being SOB or breaking a sweat. Granted, I'm getting stronger after months of doing HIIT, but it seems a little easier post protocol.

Edited by whileitravel, 10 April 2018 - 07:08 PM.

[Empiricus]

Turnbuckle, when you say you take "Broccoli sprout extract with sulforaphane* (fusion) — .5-1g" do you mean 500 mg of sulforaphane or just 2 caspules of broccomax or some other brand?  I ask that because, strangely, my Broccomax bottle doesn't state milligrams of extract, only mg of sulforaphane (30 mg per capsule). So I'm wondering if I need to take 20 capsules or 2 capsules.   

Edited by Empiricus, 11 April 2018 - 09:40 AM.

[Krell]

Progress report  (73yro 180lb 6ft)

 

I have been doing the fission/fusion protocol for 3 weeks, taking the following fusion dose with my coffee 3 days per week

followed by an hour of tennis and then some weight lifting (M/T/W).

  1.0g nicotinamide (2 tab biophix),

  1.0g D-Ribose (2 tab BoostCeuticals), 

  900mg LE AMPK (2 tab LE),

  100mg Fisetin (1 tab DrBest)

 

I occasionally add 0.5g nicotinamide+ 0.5g D-Ribose before bed to see if I can get the vivid dreams

I had occasionally when taking NR some years ago - but so far nothing.

 

I have not had any repeat of the skipping heart rate I experienced when starting out at fission@1.5g nicotinamide .

Next week I will try upping my fission dose to 1.5g nicotinamide daily.

 

Rather than "exercise like a girl" I do my own "exercise like a geezer" weight lifting which consists of 

1 set of bench presses, 1 set of pullups, and 1 set of dips, with plenty of rest between exercises.

 

I think that I am following the old Nautilis Machine (Arthur Jones) recommendations

that suggested that older people have less recovery ability, so they should do only 1 set of exercises at the heaviest

weight where they can do ~4-10 reps.  This is supposed to give you max muscle stimulation with minimum breakdown. Anyway, that's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Weight Lifting Results: in 3 weeks I have gone from 6 to 8 reps at 165lb bench press, from 4 to 6 pullups, and from 10 to 12 dips.  Maybe some of that is due to more exercise diligence than normal, but I credit some to the fis/fus protocol.  I have been doing this weight lifting for years, and this is the first time I have seen a clear increase rather than the gradual decrease that comes with aging.

 

On non weight lifting days, and on fusion protocol, I do HIIT and there it is harder to track my progress, but the

stairstepper machine I use has a heart rate monitor, and finishes with an average heart rate over 16min, and that is gradually falling but the true test will be my weekly mountain hike where I time myself over the same course and have years of previous data. I will try that tomorrow if the weather permits.

 

Also, I took the Osiris Green biological age test about a month ago, before fis/fus, and recently got back a result of 

"Estimated age: 59.5 years old, plus or minus 1.8 years (median absolute deviation)" thanks to my ancestors

and clean living?  I am not sure if I should expect to see any improvement if I retake the biological age test after 

some months on the fis/fus protocol?

 

Edited by Krell, 11 April 2018 - 07:01 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, when you say you take "Broccoli sprout extract with sulforaphane* (fusion) — .5-1g" do you mean 500 mg of sulforaphane or just 2 caspules of broccomax or some other brand?  I ask that because, strangely, my Broccomax bottle doesn't state milligrams of extract, only mg of sulforaphane (30 mg per capsule). So I'm wondering if I need to take 20 capsules or 2 capsules.   

 

 

2 caps, though I only use stearic acid these days.

[Nate-2004]

BroccoMax only yields 9mg sulforaphane per cap, I take 6 usually, as 60mg was the ideal in most human clinical trials.

 

Also, doesn't higher volume result in more ATP depletion, which is our aim here no?

[Turnbuckle]

 

I occasionally add 0.5g nicotinamide+ 0.5g D-Ribose before bed to see if I can get the vivid dreams

I had occasionally when taking NR some years ago - but so far nothing.

 

 

The difference may be in timing. N+R is absorbed immediately and reaches a peak early in the night during deep sleep, while NR takes several hours to be digested back into N+R and thus will reach a peak during REM sleep.

[MikeDC]

The difference may be in timing. N+R is absorbed immediately and reaches a peak early in the night during deep sleep, while NR takes several hours to be digested back into N+R and thus will reach a peak during REM sleep.

Most People take NR in the morning and get vivid dreams. I just had a very long dream.

[nikolay]

BroccoMax only yields 9mg sulforaphane per cap, I take 6 usually, as 60mg was the ideal in most human clinical trials.

 

Also, doesn't higher volume result in more ATP depletion, which is our aim here no?

The label says 30mg per capsule. Thus, I take two per day.

[Nate-2004]

That's 30mg glucoraphanin, not sulforaphane. The amount of sulforaphane from each cap is probably around 9mg.

[Blueflash]

Could caffeine be added and if so for fusion or fission?

[Turnbuckle]

Could caffeine be added and if so for fusion or fission?

 

 

I haven't seen any research directly on point.  I've used it with both fusion and fission--being a caffeine addict--and haven't noted any obvious effects.

[Blueflash]

I haven't seen any research directly on point. I've used it with both fusion and fission--being a caffeine addict--and haven't noted any obvious effects.

Sounds good. With all the supplements I've tried to enhance my workouts, I definitely overlooked caffeine.

[nikolay]

How about adding d-Glucosamine to the stack (https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3988823/)?

 

Here's where I found about it: http://geroscience.c...ristow-part-ii/

Edited by nikolay, 19 April 2018 - 06:09 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

How about adding d-Glucosamine to the stack (https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3988823/)?

 

Here's where I found about it: http://geroscience.c...ristow-part-ii/

 

 

I think probably not. They differentiate chronic from short term use. Using it here with fusion would be a short term use, and that doesn't sound good--

 

short-term administration of high-dose GlcN to model systems6,7,8 or humans9,10 acutely impairs glucose metabolism that resembles some of the metabolic features of diabetes mellitus. By contrast, chronic GlcN intake has no detectable influence11, or even blood glucose-lowering12 effects in humans.

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 April 2018 - 08:27 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Hypothetically, activities that might go best under fission vs fusion--

 

Fission with—

Clearing out dysfunctional mtDNA loops, as fission allows mito QC to target them 

Exercise, to get faster results with less effort, and because stem cell differentiation (asymmetric division) is encouraged, creating new somatic cells only where needed.

 

Fusion with—

Major surgery, as ATP is maximized (haven't tried this one!)

Performance activities of all kinds, as ATP is maximized

Mito biogenesis, as replicating mtDNA is protected from mito QC

C60 (and other supplements that stimulate stem cells), as stem cell proliferation (symmetric division) is encouraged everywhere, thus topping off the stem cell pool. See Stem cell self-renewal with C60.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 21 April 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[lost69]

what would you use before or after platelet rich plasma plus dermapen 2,5mm to boost results to maximum?

 

until now i ve used high dose C60 before/after, low dose GDF11 before, NR, telomerase activators and done only 2 mito quality regimens (few defective mito because very little sides the next 24hrs only) and starting today stearic acid+c60

 

PRP/dermapen had the most amazing results definitely boosted by all other antiaging interventions restoring my face volumes like when 30yo (i'm 49yo) for few weeks right after PRP and then slowly going to balance like 35yo face volumes.

the final result is always a step better about face volumes and definitely better skin quality so i repeat this every 3 months because it builds up every time.these results are due to antiaging regimens nobody had such results according to the very experienced staff at the plastic surgery clinic i go with only PRP/dermapen

 

i also hope others will do PRP/dermapen+antiaging regimens so that these results might be repilcated by others

 

thanks

 

 

Hypothetically, activities that might go best under fission vs fusion--

 

Fission with—

Clearing out dysfunctional mtDNA loops, as fission allows mito QC to target them 

Exercise, to get faster results with less effort, and because stem cell differentiation (asymmetric division) is encouraged, creating new somatic cells only where needed.

 

Fusion with—

Major surgery, as ATP is maximized (haven't tried this one!)

Performance activities of all kinds, as ATP is maximized

Mito biogenesis, as replicating mtDNA is protected from mito QC

C60 (and other supplements that stimulate stem cells), as stem cell proliferation (symmetric division) is encouraged everywhere, thus topping off the stem cell pool. See Stem cell self-renewal with C60.

 

Edited by lost69, 21 April 2018 - 12:25 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

what would you use before or after platelet rich plasma plus dermapen 2,5mm to boost results to maximum?

 

 

 

I can't address PRP specifically, but I expect needle treatments to go better with fission--at least as compared to fusion.

[lost69]

thanks

 

i guess PRP goes well with stemcell proliferation activators.maybe fission the day of the treatment and fusion days before/after

 

i forgot i use epimedium 1g for one week before and after PRP and see a boost.but not if used longterm  because i see loss of face/bodyfat which is bad on face

 

I can't address PRP specifically, but I expect needle treatments to go better with fission--at least as compared to fusion.

 

[lost69]

3dr round of mito quality this time adding apigenin 100mg (2g nicotinamide+5g ribose, 100mg apigenin, 1g ampk, 1g tmg,4g lysine, no fisetin this time) because i had no effects on strength during heavy swimming previous time and only feeling a little down later same day and following day.

 

this time i had even less effect on strength, only very little muscle soreness and a little broken at wake up the following day but i finially had a very good and needed effect on BP while previous time BP lowered very little and then got back to baseline.also hrv results were not manteined

 

so baseline BP 118-120/85-90 pulse always ok 56-60 hrv 46-47 rmssd 21-25 morning readiness around 9 reaction time 192-200ms

fission day  BP 101/73 pulse 60 hrv 53 rmssd 31.77 morning readiness 4 reaction time 240ms

 

tomorrow i can use stearic acid for fusion instead of broccoli and hopefully get durability on BP

Edited by lost69, 24 April 2018 - 01:21 PM.

[Krell]

I am going on vacation for 2 weeks and I wonder if there is any problem with discontinuing the protocol during that time?

Will I lose my strength gains?  I am not planning to continue my exercises during vacation.

[Turnbuckle]

I am going on vacation for 2 weeks and I wonder if there is any problem with discontinuing the protocol during that time?

Will I lose my strength gains?  I am not planning to continue my exercises during vacation.

 

Don't worry about it. When you stop you should go back to the standard rate of mito decline, but that will be from an improved baseline. 

[Female Scientist]

Can someone please tell me if LLLT promotes fission, fusion, or both?

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4355185/

[Turnbuckle]

Can someone please tell me if LLLT promotes fission, fusion, or both?

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4355185/

 

Red light (coherent or incoherent) is said to increase ATP, therefore it would go well with a protocol to stimulate stem cells (regardless of what it is doing to the mito morphology, as that can likely be overridden with supplements). Using it with a fission protocol to stimulate stem cell differentiation for skin treatments would make sense, and using it for stem cell self-renewal might work as well, as long as the protocol involved something other than C60, as fullerenes are very photoreactive, even with red light. It's possible that red light alone could be used with either fusion or fission. For fission based skin treatments, it might work better with a a topical oil containing apigenin, which stimulates both fission and stem cell differentiation.

 

Previous works in the last few years have found that the application of laser light-beams at low energy (wavelength ranging from 530 nm to 830 nm) induces an increase in motion parameters and in ATP content in mouse, human, dog, bull, sheep and rabbit sperm. Similar effects with incoherent light, i.e. visible light at a wavelength range of 400 nm–800 nm, have also been observed in mouse, human, bull and ram sperm.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4773850/

 

[thedarkbobo]

Just a thought but one could take 2-3 lab rats (maybe quickly dying ones?) and 2 of them would go on this protocol (so one would test c60, N+R,stearic acid, LLLT, (..)) and one without to compare.

If they survived (a lot) longer that would tell us it's really worth it, we should keep doing that and perfect it. If nothing or worse then we need to think again.

 

We still do not have any results from the C60 mouse study which is worrying a bit. I know we can feel good about this and base this on various theories but still. One might come up with conclusion, for example, that this is 20% of what should be done anti-aging wise, and 30% could be attributed to various senolytics, another 10% related to heart regeneration etc etc

Just a thought.

[BieraK]

 

High energy protocol — NAD/fusion (experimental)

 

 

Rationale: While high NAD+/NADH typically drives mitochondria into fission, stearic acid overrides that and drives them into fusion, producing a high ATP state. 

 

(morning, 3 days)

Nicotinamide (NAD) — 2g

Ribose (NAD) — 2g

Stearic acid (fusion) — 5g

AMPK activators (Life Extension or jiaogulan leaf) — 1g

 

Warning: While NAD/fission drops my BP, NAD/fusion raises it. I had to triple my anti-hypertension dosage on the first day.

 

Results: After three days this feels similar to my first experience with C60 in 2012. That is, more energy, flexibility, and more youthful looking skin. With C60 the effects faded, at least in part as it did nothing to eliminate defective mitochondria.

 

 

Could the high energy procotol serve as a basis to promote the conjunt use of NR/N+R with Sulforaphane?

One of the problems with the thread about NR with sulforaphane was that NR promotes fission and sulforaphane promotes hyperfussion of mitochondria, howevere here are some anecdotes about increased NAD+ paired with fission. A normal NR dose is low compared with the dose here, so I tend to think Sulforaphane is able to override the mitochondrial fission.... and more, as I know the normal low doses of NR does not produce fission, is the very high NAD+ which produces it.

 

[Turnbuckle]

Could the high energy procotol serve as a basis to promote the conjunt use of NR/N+R with Sulforaphane?

One of the problems with the thread about NR with sulforaphane was that NR promotes fission and sulforaphane promotes hyperfussion of mitochondria, howevere here are some anecdotes about increased NAD+ paired with fission. A normal NR dose is low compared with the dose here, so I tend to think Sulforaphane is able to override the mitochondrial fission.... and more, as I know the normal low doses of NR does not produce fission, is the very high NAD+ which produces it.

 

 

 

They could be two ships passing in the night. Sulforaphane has a short half-life while NR shows a long delay before getting into the system. 

[Female Scientist]

Red light (coherent or incoherent) is said to increase ATP, therefore it would go well with a protocol to stimulate stem cells (regardless of what it is doing to the mito morphology, as that can likely be overridden with supplements). Using it with a fission protocol to stimulate stem cell differentiation for skin treatments would make sense, and using it for stem cell self-renewal might work as well, as long as the protocol involved something other than C60, as fullerenes are very photoreactive, even with red light. It's possible that red light alone could be used with either fusion or fission. For fission based skin treatments, it might work better with a a topical oil containing apigenin, which stimulates both fission and stem cell differentiation.

[Female Scientist]

LLLT seems to boost both fusion and fission — and it appears that the Near Infrared LLLT penetrates deeper into the tissues, so worthy of considering just beyond cosmetic purposes? Folks are using it for thyroid boosting, as one example.... lots of research on various uses. I would love to hear thoughts on how to tie LLLT more directly to the mitochondrial QC Protocol.

[Turnbuckle]

LLLT seems to boost both fusion and fission

 

But not at the same time to the same tissues, right? Fission and fusion are opposite states. As red light increases membrane potential and production of ATP, this would likely reduce the sensitivity of mito QC. Thus it wouldn't go well with fission/mitophagy. It might go well with stem cell activation, however, esp. for the skin.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 29 April 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[Female Scientist]

OK. So if LLLT is good for stem cell activation— and fusion? Which is what I think you’re saying? Does it then follow that LLLT sessions might best be avoided on fission days, and encouraged on fusion days?

But not at the same time to the same tissues, right? Fission and fusion are opposite states. As red light increases membrane potential and production of ATP, this would likely reduce the sensitivity of mito QC. Thus it wouldn't go well with fission/mitophagy. It might go well with stem cell activation, however, esp. for the skin.