2284 replies to this topic

[Ducky-001]

Hi, my first poste here. I have been reading/studying many of the threads here for the last few months, and have recently acquired the ingredients for the mitochondrial dynamics protocol. I am now on day 5 of the first round, and the results do look very promising as skin elasticity on the back of my hands have improved according to my pinch testing (I’m 49 years old). I’m a beginner when it comes to supplement’s since I have taken close to nothing earlier in my life with the only exceptions being some vitamins and minerals from time to time.

As it happens I also work at the chemistry department of a university with access to many types of analytical instruments, including high resolution mass spectrometry with or without (U)HPLC. Since I did buy the same stearic acid as is in question here I will take a sample for analysis and do a rough determination of the most prominent components.

 

 

Edited by Ducky-001, 19 August 2018 - 06:45 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I have been using the saaqin brand mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Using a candy thermometer, I heated water on the stove to a consistent 150F, placed an amount of the claimed stearic acid in a ziplock bag and placed it into the water.  60-70% of it melted. Stearic Acid shouldn't melt until around 156F.

 

This isn't very scientific, but am very excited about my early results using a variant of Turnbuckle's protocol.

 

I have reclaimed the solid portions from the oil with the assumption it is Stearic acid and will continue to use it.

 

How did you go about reclaiming solid portions?

[Phoebus]

Hi, my first poste here. I have been reading/studying many of the threads here for the last few months, and have recently acquired the ingredients for the mitochondrial dynamics protocol. I am now on day 5 of the first round, and the results do look very promising as skin elasticity on the back of my hands have improved according to my pinch testing (I’m 49 years old). I’m a beginner when it comes to supplement’s since I have taken close to nothing earlier in my life with the only exceptions being some vitamins and minerals from time to time.

As it happens I also work at the chemistry department of a university with access to many types of analytical instruments, including high resolution mass spectrometry with or without (U)HPLC. Since I did buy the same stearic acid as is in question here I will take a sample for analysis and do a rough determination of the most prominent components.

 

 

yeah, great, many here would be interested in the results of that analysis, thanks 

 

can you post your specific supplement protocol? 

Edited by Phoebus, 19 August 2018 - 01:44 PM.

[Ducky-001]

I did the analysis today, and the results are as follows

 

Measured Formula Teoretical Compund Intensity Proportion

[M-H]- (AMU) [M-H]- (AMU) (Probable)

 

227.2019 C14H28O2 227.2017 Myristic acid 1.62E+05 <1%

255.2330 C16H31O2 255.2330 Palmitic acid 1.47E+07 52%

283.2641 C18H35O2 283.2643 Stearic acid 1.32E+07 47%

311.2955 C20H39O2 311.2956 Arachidic acid 2.07E+05 <1%

 

So, basically there is about 50% of Palmitic acid and 50% Stearic acid in the HalalEveryday marked stearic acid bags.

 

 

I attached a PDF with some additional info.

 

Attached Files

•  Stearic acid.pdf   626.74KB   27 downloads

Edited by Ducky-001, 19 August 2018 - 04:15 PM.

[whileitravel]

"I still experience a bad reaction when on occasion taking LE NR (foot pain), though it seems less so sublingually". That's strange I too experienced the same side effects when I took the LE NR. I can describe it as a tingling/numbing/pain. I was only with LE, when I reverted back to another brand of NR the experience went away. I've had no similar experience while taking the N + R in significant higher doses.

Edited by whileitravel, 19 August 2018 - 04:16 PM.

[zorba990]

I did the analysis today, and the results are as follows

Measured Formula Teoretical Compund Intensity Proportion
[M-H]- (AMU) [M-H]- (AMU) (Probable)

227.2019 C14H28O2 227.2017 Myristic acid 1.62E+05 <1%
255.2330 C16H31O2 255.2330 Palmitic acid 1.47E+07 52%
283.2641 C18H35O2 283.2643 Stearic acid 1.32E+07 47%
311.2955 C20H39O2 311.2956 Arachidic acid 2.07E+05 <1%

So, basically there is about 50% of Palmitic acid and 50% Stearic acid in the HalalEveryday marked stearic acid bags.


I attached a PDF with some additional info.

Thanks so much!

[RWhigham]

The process for making "Commercial grade Stearic acid" has been around a long time.

From Patent US2298501A "Method of Separating Fatty Acids" 1942   In the manufacture of commercial stearic acid in the past, the natural fats are .chosen and blended to constitute a batch in which the solid fatty acids will have a ratio of 47.5% stearic acid to 52.5% palmitic acid, the reason for maintaining this eutectic ratio subsequently is explained. ...  If the indicated ratio of stearic to palmitic acid be not observed, the mixed fatty acids do not form the best crystal structure upon chilling, and it is difficult to separate the red oil   [shorter chain oils]  from the solid acid components count

Edited by RWhigham, 19 August 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[BelieveWeDoBetterTogether]

 Tried the following two experiments to try to separate the Stearic Acid out of HalalEveryday marked stearic acid bags.

 

1. 200 grams in a freezer bag placed in Hot Water:

a. Heated water to 170 degrees F in a metal water heater.

b. Poured water into glass tray and waited until water cooled to 155 degrees F using a meat temperature gauge. Water cools fairly quickly and had to keep adding 170F water until it stabilized.

c. Put bag in water until water cooled to 145 degrees F. Tried to keep bag at 150F by pouring hot water in as it would continue to cool.

d. Poured contents of bag through metal strainer above glass bowl.

e. Result: Recovered 66 grams (33%) out of metal strainer which I am hoping is Stearic Acid. Lost some stearic acid in metal strainer as waited too long to get it out and it solidified on the metal strainer. Poured cool water into glass bowl so Palmitic acid would solidify and hand scooped it into the trash can.

2. 330 grams mixed into hot water:

a. Stabilized water in a metal sauce pan at 150 degrees F on an electric stove by monitoring it with a meat temperature gauge and adding cold water as necessary.

b. Poured Stearic Acid into 150F hot water and stirred it all was submerged.

c. Poured contents of metal sauce pan through metal strainer above glass bowl and quickly removed contents from metal strainer.

d. Result: Recovered 188 grams (57%) out of metal strainer which I am hoping is Stearic Acid. Poured cool water into glass bowl so Palmitic acid would solidify and hand scooped it into the trash can. From Ducky-001's results of 50% Stearic Acid/50% Palmitic Acid, I probably didn't stir it for long enough before I strained it and/or the water cooled too much as I had 57% left which is 7% too much.

 

Lessons Learned: Believe I need to have a better technique to keep the water at 150F as it lowers as soon as the Stearic Acid gets in it. Perhaps if I would have stabilized the water at 155F in the metal sauce pan, it will melt out the Palmitic acid before it cools too much, but keep the Stearic Acid solid. Both experiments were pretty messy as the Palmitic acid solidifies quickly and then you have to pour hot water over the Metal Pot, Stirrer, and strainer above a glass bowl so it doesn't solidify in the drain pipes.

 

 

 

Edited by BelieveWeDoBetterTogether, 19 August 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

The process for making "Commercial grade Stearic acid" has been around a long time.

From Patent US2298501A "Method of Separating Fatty Acids" 1942   In the manufacture of commercial stearic acid in the past, the natural fats are .chosen and blended to constitute a batch in which the solid fatty acids will have a ratio of 47.5% stearic acid to 52.5% palmitic acid, the reason for maintaining this eutectic ratio subsequently is explained. ...  If the indicated ratio of stearic to palmitic acid be not observed, the mixed fatty acids do not form the best crystal structure upon chilling, and it is difficult to separate the red oil   [shorter chain oils]  from the solid acid components count

 

 

Using the weird logic of this industry, they could seemingly ship the same product and call it either stearic acid or palmitic acid. Which is unfortunate considering how much healthier stearic acid is. For instance, comparing ascorbyl stearate to ascorbyl palmitate in rats--

    

         Groups of 10 young rats were fed diets containing L-ascorbyl

    stearate in concentrations providing 100, 200, 500, 1000 and

    3000 mg/kg bw for six months. No adverse effects were noted (Tokita).

 

         Groups of 10 rats each were fed for nine months on normal diets 

    and diets containing 2% and 5% of ascorbyl palmitate. At the 5% level

    the growth rate was significantly retarded, and two of the 10 rats had

    numerous bladder stones and hyperplasia of the bladder epithelium.

 

http://www.inchem.or...ono/v05je21.htm

 

 

BelieveWeDoBetterTogether--it's very unlikely you are getting anything more than a slight enrichment as they form a eutectic mixture. 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 August 2018 - 07:16 PM.

[Ducky-001]

yeah, great, many here would be interested in the results of that analysis, thanks 

 

can you post your specific supplement protocol? 

 

Hi, my protocol is the latest Protocol of Turnbuckle - https://www.longecit...-33#entry851034

 

I have now done one iteration, and plan on doing another one next week. I will probably try to do some kind of very simple clean up experiment on the Stearic acid inspired by BelieveWeDoBetterTogether and see if it does anything to the ratio between Palmitic and Stearic acid. 

[BelieveWeDoBetterTogether]

Hi, my protocol is the latest Protocol of Turnbuckle - https://www.longecit...-33#entry851034

 

I have now done one iteration, and plan on doing another one next week. I will probably try to do some kind of very simple clean up experiment on the Stearic acid inspired by BelieveWeDoBetterTogether and see if it does anything to the ratio between Palmitic and Stearic acid. 

Thank you. That will be interesting to see if something simple can separate out the Stearic acid. There was quite of bit of oil that got through the metal strainer, but I wish I would have measured the weight. It would be good to know what each side of the filter has in it. I made 12 more brownies with the filtered Stearic Acid and it still tastes good:) I put it in a freezer plastic bag and pounded it with a Mallet hammer to get it fine enough to mix in the brownies. There are a few chemical companies that make Stearic Acid, but haven't found one that is claiming food grade so good if there is a technique to separate out the Stearic acid out of the food grade that we have. 

[Phoebus]

The process for making "Commercial grade Stearic acid" has been around a long time.

From Patent US2298501A "Method of Separating Fatty Acids" 1942   In the manufacture of commercial stearic acid in the past, the natural fats are .chosen and blended to constitute a batch in which the solid fatty acids will have a ratio of 47.5% stearic acid to 52.5% palmitic acid, the reason for maintaining this eutectic ratio subsequently is explained. ...  If the indicated ratio of stearic to palmitic acid be not observed, the mixed fatty acids do not form the best crystal structure upon chilling, and it is difficult to separate the red oil   [shorter chain oils]  from the solid acid components count

 

 

so hold on

 

does this mean pretty much ALL available stearic acid products will be 50/50 s. acid/p. acid? 

 

also - is the p. acid somehow hindering the s. acid from doing the stem cell thingy? 

Edited by Phoebus, 20 August 2018 - 12:32 AM.

[lost69]

Can you please link sigma stesric acid, i ll try to buy it as a company
I guess powder is best form to dissolve vs flakes

How much broccomax to get same effect as stearic acid?

Before ordering from amazon i asked compounding pharmacies in my area, they have it but not foodgrade although they use it in their drugs so it should be ok too

I 've also ordered and then requested cancellation from Fischer. Though will reorder again from them if other options fail

IMO best source is to buy it from Sigma-Aldrich. 95% Food Grade. Its the source of stearic acid for the recent study in Nature https://www.nature.c...467-018-05614-6
https://www.sigmaald...ng=en&region=US
Not very economical on small volume though, but 25 kg is about the same price as Duda

I 've ordered 1kg, waiting for an order review, they would probably reject it.

[Andey]

Can you please link sigma stesric acid, i ll try to buy it as a company
I guess powder is best form to dissolve vs flakes

How much broccomax to get same effect as stearic acid?

Before ordering from amazon i asked compounding pharmacies in my area, they have it but not foodgrade although they use it in their drugs so it should be ok too
 

 

Its on the page you just need to create an account for the Add to cart button to appear

https://www.sigmaald...ng=en&region=US

Image: https://ibb.co/b28cvz

 

Yep, I would go for some reagent grade too if a food grade doesn't come into fruition.

Edited by Andey, 20 August 2018 - 05:22 AM.

[QuestforLife]

so hold on

 

does this mean pretty much ALL available stearic acid products will be 50/50 s. acid/p. acid? 

 

also - is the p. acid somehow hindering the s. acid from doing the stem cell thingy? 

 

In the linked paper ('Dietary stearic acid regulates mitochondria in vivo in humans') they speculated that the human body can only detect some metabolites to let it know what it is consuming but not others. For example it can detect C18:0 (Stearic) but not C16:0 (Palmitic). Therefore consuming pure C18:0 upregulates fatty acid oxidation but pure C16:0 does not, leading to harmful fat accumulation.  So this suggests the harm from Palmitic acid is only because it is isolated, and a mix of Stearic and Palmitic acid would solve this problem, as the body would detect the Stearic acid.

 

It is an open question whether pure Stearic acid would be better at causing mitochondrial fusion over a stearic:palmitic mix. I suspect it would, so I'm looking forward to seeing what the results are from Ducky's melting experiment post analysis.

 

I tried it myself and I recovered about half of the mixture back. It stands to reason that more of the palmitic acid would melt than the stearic at 50-60C, but there could be other factors involved.

Edited by QuestforLife, 20 August 2018 - 09:22 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 So this suggests the harm from Palmitic acid is only because it is isolated, and a mix of Stearic and Palmitic acid would solve this problem, as the body would detect the Stearic acid.

 

 

I posted this previously--

 

First, we revealed that excess palmitate (PA), but not hyperglycemia, hyperinsulinemia, or elevated tumor necrosis factor alpha, induced mitochondrial fragmentation and increased mitochondrion-associated Drp1 and Fis1 in differentiated C2C12 muscle cells. This fragmentation was associated with increased oxidative stress, mitochondrial depolarization, loss of ATP production, and reduced insulin-stimulated glucose uptake. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3255771/

 

[Galthaar]

What do you think about kokum butter?

 

http://thesoapdish.c...rties-chart.htm

 

50-62% stearic acid

2-6% palmitic

[Nate-2004]

What do you think about kokum butter?

 

http://thesoapdish.c...rties-chart.htm

 

50-62% stearic acid

2-6% palmitic

 

That also has a lot of monounsaturated oleic acid which is great for neuron myelination, it's found in most nuts and EVOO. Never heard of kokum butter but that sounds like a much better option.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 August 2018 - 12:50 PM.

[Galthaar]

I found it to buy here:

 

https://www.vitaeorg...Bulk_p_167.html

 

if someone finds a better price, please let me know.

[Nate-2004]

I found it to buy here:

 

https://www.vitaeorg...Bulk_p_167.html

 

if someone finds a better price, please let me know.

 

https://smile.amazon...sk_ql_qh_dp_hza

[RWhigham]

Regarding attempts to separate Palmitic & Stearic acid from the  52/47 Eutectic Mix

Eutectic definition:  denoting a mixture of substances (in fixed proportions) that melts and solidifies at a single temperature that is lower than the melting points of the separate constituents or of any other mixture of them. (A common eutectic is solder--a mixture of 38% lead and 62% tin: Lead melts at 232 C, tin at 327 C, and the mixture melts above 183 C.)

 

One would expect that if stirred long enough all of the palmitic-stearic eutectic would easily dissolve at 150 F.

 

To separate stearic acid from the eutectic mixture see US Patent 2443063

"dissolve it in a solvent comprising a saturated or unsaturated non-aromatic ketone having from 4 to 9 carbon atoms, lowering the temperature of the solution of the said impure stearic acid and the said ketone solvent to a temperature at which crystallization of pure stearic acid takes place, and separating the crystallized stearic acid from the mother liquor" ... "The solution may be effected at a temperature of above 42° C but below the boiling temperature of the solvent".  [42 C is only 106.7 F] 

 

"Stirring, shaking or other means of agitation may be employed to accelerate the solution process. After the crude stearic acid is completely dissolved, the temperature of the solution may be lowered to a temperature at which crystallization of pure stearic acid takes place, i. e. at a temperature of above about 15* C. but below about 40° C., preferably between about 15° C. and, about 25° C. The agitation or stirring of the solution may be continued during the cooling step to cause the separation of the pure stearic acid in the form of very fine crystals which are of better color and a higher degree of purity than if the crystallization were allowed to take place without such stirring or agitation."  They go on to suggest separating out the fine crystals with a centrifuge, then evaporating away the solvent with heat.

Edited by RWhigham, 20 August 2018 - 03:49 PM.

[QuestforLife]

https://smile.amazon...sk_ql_qh_dp_hza

 

Can you eat it?

 

Looks like this is intended to make lotions and body butters, etc.

[Nate-2004]

Can you eat it?

 

Looks like this is intended to make lotions and body butters, etc.

 

I think that's how people use it, for sure. Though that's how people were using the "food grade stearic acid" as well. It comes from a tree:

 

http://kokum-butter....butter-benefits

 

Produced from the seeds of the Kokum tree’s (Garcinia Indica) fruit, Kokum Butter is refined resulting in a white butter with a mild to nonexistent odor. Kokum Butter has a smooth dense texture suitable for cosmetic, confectionary and toiletry applications. Kokum Butter is highly resistant to oxidation and often used as a Cocoa Butter substitute.

 

Our Kokum butter is derived from the Garcinia tree and is expeller pressed and refined. This naturally white butter is often used as a substitute for Cocoa butterdue to its uniform triglyceride composition. ... Please note that Kokum butter by nature is a dry and flaky butter.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 August 2018 - 03:50 PM.

[Kentavr]

Mango oil

Fatty acids present in mango fat^[9]

 

Fatty acid Percent

 

Palmitic acid, C16:0 5.5

Stearic acid, C18:0 40-45

Oleic Acid, C18:1 40-46

Linoleic Acid, C18:2 3-4

Arachidic acid, C20:0 2-2.5

 

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Mango_oil 

 

Maybe try this oil as a source of stearic acid?

It is used in the food industry as a substitute for cocoa butter. 

 

 

The spread of the range of values (in%) for stearic acid is only 5% (from 40 to 45%)

 

The spread of the range of values (in%) for palmitic acid is practically absent (5.5%)

 

The ratio of palmitic acid: stearic acid = (40 - 45) : 5.5 = (7.27 - 8,18)  : 1 

 

Edited by Kentavr, 20 August 2018 - 09:38 PM.

[Kentavr]

TRV1890K, Stearic Fatty Acid, Vegetable Grade, Kosher: http://info.twinrive...atty-acids.html

SDS: Substance/Preparation (mixture): 

 

Octadeccanoic acid 90- 99 %

Hexadecanoic acid 0-10 % 

 

 

 

[Kentavr]

Halal fatty acids:

 

http://info.twinrive...atty-acids.html

[Rocket]

I bought food grade stearic acid through amazon.

[Nate-2004]

I bought food grade stearic acid through amazon.

 

Please read earlier posts, it was recently discovered this isn't pure stearic. It's half palmitic which is no bueno. We're trying to find other sources of pure stearic or mostly stearic.

[Kentavr]

What grade of stearic acid did Turnbuckle use?

[QuestforLife]

 

Mango oil

Fatty acids present in mango fat^[9]

 

Fatty acid Percent

 

Palmitic acid, C16:0 5.5

Stearic acid, C18:0 40-45

Oleic Acid, C18:1 40-46

Linoleic Acid, C18:2 3-4

Arachidic acid, C20:0 2-2.5

 

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Mango_oil 

 

Maybe try this oil as a source of stearic acid?

It is used in the food industry as a substitute for cocoa butter. 

 

 

The spread of the range of values (in%) for stearic acid is only 5% (from 40 to 45%)

 

The spread of the range of values (in%) for palmitic acid is practically absent (5.5%)

 

The ratio of palmitic acid: stearic acid = (40 - 45) : 5.5 = (7.27 - 8,18)  : 1 

 

 

Good find Kentavr.

 

All of the various alternatives to 'impure' stearic acid - Shea butter, Sal Butter, Kokum butter and Mango Butter - are mainly composed of Stearic Acid and Oleic Acid with small amounts of Palmitic Acid.

 

I've managed to find food grade Mango Butter on Amazon so I'll probably go with that.

 

Has anyone found anything about the effects of Oleic Acid on mitochondria? So far it seems to be neutral as far as I can tell, but I've only skimmed the following paper:

 

https://www.nature.c...les/ncomms15832

 

The alternative, going through Fisher Scientific to get 97% Stearic Acid, is possible - you just need to register for a PO Box (in the UK).