2285 replies to this topic

[Advocatus Diaboli]

re: post 1830

 

Thanks, mike20g. The Simplesa Liquid AKG is unavailable on Amazon, where did you purchase your supply?

[mike20g]

I purchased it about 10 days ago and at that time it was available. I don't like it personally, I understand that it works faster that salt version, but I honestly don't believe it is that important. Liquid version has several unhealthy added extra stuff that I want to avoid.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

re: post # 1832

 

mike20g, did you notice any of the same manifestations given in the one-star Amazon reviews found in the "unavailable" link that I gave in post #1831 ?

 

i.e.:

 

"yellow foamy material was hardened around the bottom of the lid"

 

or  

 

"I noticed the rubber bulb on the bottle top dropper had expanded to the point it was practically double the size. I opened the safety seal and untwisted the cap just enough to let the built-up gas out. WTH is in this product? Either that or it was contaminated with bacteria or something and it went bad"

[mike20g]

I didn't notice that, was not really paying much attention. Given the inactive ingredients in this akg I sincerely doubt about possibility of bacterial contamination.

[nadaepeu]

Dear all,

 

I have just finished my 5th cycle with the new protocol and I feel various positive effects in my clarity, strength and stamina (although I am not doing the suggested monitoring process with the early exercises).

 

What I have noticed the most though is the improvements in my sleep. The last few months I am having a really heavy schedule that limits my sleep to only 5-6 hours, which a rather limited amount of sleep and makes getting out of bed difficult. But with the protocol I feel much stronger in the morning even with only 5-6 hours of sleep. Since I am monitoring my sleep with an oura ring I am currently seeing some of the best values that I've ever had. A deep sleep of almost 3 hours, lower resting HR value of 41 and HRV of average 121ms and max around 170ms. By the way I am 40 years old.

Edited by panais, 04 March 2021 - 07:19 AM.

[yz69]

Dear all,

 

I have just finished my 5th cycle with the new protocol and I feel various positive effects in my clarity, strength and stamina (although I am not doing the suggested monitoring process with the early exercises).

 

What I have noticed the most though is the improvements in my sleep. The last few months I am having a really heavy schedule that limits my sleep to only 5-6 hours, which a rather limited amount of sleep and makes getting out of bed difficult. But with the protocol I feel much stronger in the morning even with only 5-6 hours of sleep. Since I am monitoring my sleep with an oura ring I am currently seeing some of the best values that I've ever had. A deep sleep of almost 3 hours, lower resting HR value of 41 and HRV of average 121ms and max around 170ms. By the way I am 40 years old.

That sounds like a great way to measure progress! What are the numbers before you do the protocol?

[Blueflash]

I bought glycerol monostearate from bulk supplements. How is anybody getting this crap to dissolve? I put it in a pot on the stove and it only clumps together, like a liquid plastic.

[Empiricus]

I bought glycerol monostearate from bulk supplements. How is anybody getting this crap to dissolve? I put it in a pot on the stove and it only clumps together, like a liquid plastic.

 

I put dark chocolate squares or cocoa powder in a mug with a spoonful fo glycerol monostearate.  I add a bit of milk or cream and nuke it for about 20 seconds.  I stir it until there is only chocolate visible.  Then I add milk or cream and nuke it again for another minute.  

[mike20g]

I was going to suggest warm water, but dark chocolate with cream sounds great..

[Andey]

I bought a pound of AKG here https://www.trafarx....qsj3b4odk7024t0

Site looks super sketchy(or maybe super old school) and checkout is even worse, I recall I entered a CC number and they made a transaction themselves.

Yet their AKG seems legit - it has the yellow tint that it should have and pretty acidic.

TBH I don't take it much because of acidity, when I dissolve it so its palatable to drink(and not threating to the esophagus), it ends up with only a minuscule amount per glass of water. I found it more practical to take AAKG or CaAKG

[Danniel]

@Turnbuckle: With age, many of us suffer from different autoimmune diseases. What would be the possible effects of each phase of this regimen on an autoimmune disease? (for example: Hashimoto, autoimmune hypothyroidism)

[Turnbuckle]

@Turnbuckle: With age, many of us suffer from different autoimmune diseases. What would be the possible effects of each phase of this regimen on an autoimmune disease? (for example: Hashimoto, autoimmune hypothyroidism)

 

 

This mito treatment and the companion stem cell treatment can potentially lessen the effects of autoimmune diseases. For instance --

 

Emerging data have added metabolic cues involved in the proper maintenance and activation of immune cells as pathogenic regulators. Specifically, studies have unveiled metabolic pathways that enforce T cell fate decisions promoting tissue inflammation; including T cell tissue invasiveness, T cell cytokine release, T cell-dependent macrophage activation and inflammatory T cell death. At the center of the metabolic abnormalities lies the mitochondria, which is consistently underperforming in RA T cells. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/31895885/

 

[stephen_b]

I am wondering if the reason I am not seeing strong benefits from the protocol for running performance is because, apparently, niacin depletes muscle glycogen.

 

From PMID 3710971:

 

To evaluate the role of glycogen depletion, we accelerated glycogen utilization by nicotinic acid administration.

 

I'm assuming that statement is correct and it applies to the niacinamide in the protocol too. If that hypothesis is correct, taking a week long break from the protocol should result in improved running performance in the upcoming week (I'm running about 25 miles a week and increasing at the moment). I've done 6 of the new cycles so far and will resume a week later if that happens.

[Turnbuckle]

I am wondering if the reason I am not seeing strong benefits from the protocol for running performance is because, apparently, niacin depletes muscle glycogen.

 

From PMID 3710971:

 

To evaluate the role of glycogen depletion, we accelerated glycogen utilization by nicotinic acid administration.

 

I'm assuming that statement is correct and it applies to the niacinamide in the protocol too. If that hypothesis is correct, taking a week long break from the protocol should result in improved running performance in the upcoming week (I'm running about 25 miles a week and increasing at the moment). I've done 6 of the new cycles so far and will resume a week later if that happens.

 

 

If you are not seeing a difference between fission and fusion, then perhaps you don't have much mitochondrial damage. As for the quote from that old paper, it's likely that glycogen use goes up during NAM induced fission due to reduced efficiency. To increase glycogen stores, this paper recommends --

 

For rapid recovery from prolonged exercise, it is important to replenish muscle glycogen stores and initiate muscle tissue repair and adaptation.

 

To maximize muscle glycogen replenishment, it is important to consume a carbohydrate supplement as soon after exercise as possible.

 

Consume the carbohydrate frequently, such as every 30 minutes, and provide about 1.2 to 1.5 g of carbohydrate·kg-1 body wt·h-1.

 

Efficiency of muscle glycogen storage can be increased significantly with the addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement (~4 to 1 carbohydrate to protein ratio).

 

The addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement also has the added advantage of limiting post exercise muscle damage and promoting muscle protein accretion.

 

 

 

And also this paper--

 

During exercise of moderate-to-high intensity, muscle glycogen stores represent the most important fuel source to sustain exercise. In these scenarios, post-exercise nutrient timing should largely focus on the restoration of muscle glycogen to improve rates of recovery. When exercise stops, the increase in post-exercise glucose transporters begins to decline and returns to baseline levels within 2 h [86]. The upregulation of GLUT4 transporters immediately following exercise provides a window of opportunity to take advantage of the muscle’s ability to uptake glucose and optimally replenish glycogen stores. 

 

 

[longcity90]

How does DNA methylation and acetylation affect mitochondrial dynamics? there is a saying that says "was the chicken or the egg born first?".

Is intervening on the mitochondrial dynamics equivalent to resolving any methylation defects or do things remain separate? I ask because it seems that I have to intervene on methylation due to a lack of use of methyl donors. I wonder if working with the protocol present here can help and especially if it affects.

[Mr Serendipity]

I just wanted to chime in here as I’ve been suffering from chronic hypomania for awhile now and I never really looked into mitochondrial health or NAD+. Instead I’ve just been self experimenting with supplements over the years and trying different things I’ve seen in studies.

I’ve recently been able to tame my hypomania to a large degree with the following combo:

Forskolin
Lecithin
Niacinamide
———
NAC
Multivitamins

The first three I believe are the main factors helping my hypomania via mitochondrial health, while the last 2 are just taken for good measure.

My hypomania occurs regularly and can be exacerbated by a visualisation technique called amygdala tickling (though I’m not here to debate the legitimacy of this technique or derail the thread). I just wanted to give my testimony that I’m in the best control of my hypomania since I’ve been taking the aforementioned combo of supplements.

Another factor is I improved my gut health since December with probiotics and inulin because I read a study which says probiotics may help with mania. However I don’t take either of these on a regular basis anymore, and improving my gut health didn’t seem to help me with my hypomania from my observations.

An interesting observation I’ve made on my journey is that I’ve been lactose intolerant for over a decade now. However as of recent I’ve been able overcome this and am able to consume milk daily, whereas before it was impossible without rushing to the toilet. This could be contributed to improved gut health from the probiotics and inulin I had taken previously, but I felt my lactose intolerance and digestion issues in general had really improved once I started supplementing niacinamide.

The last observation I have made is niacinamide can send me into a depressive mood if I take too much at once, so I just stick to 500mg once in the morning, and sometimes another one later on if my mind starts to become too hyperactive. Niacinamide seems to work for bringing me down and doesn’t effect my sleep negatively, so I can also take it later on in the day.

I hypothesise some of my issues stem from a highly reactive amygdala, a dysfunctional orbitolfrontal cortex, and mitochondrial problems.

Take all of this as what you will. I’m just sharing my observations from self experimentation.

I’ll be scouring this thread and sub forum to get a better understanding of exactly what’s going on here, and see what supplements and protocols I could add to my regime.

Edited by Jesus is King, 13 March 2021 - 11:33 AM.

[joesixpack]

Hi,

 

Please explain what hypomania is. Thanks.

[Turnbuckle]

Hi,

 

Please explain what hypomania is. Thanks.

 

For the last two posters, let's please keep this thread on topic, okay? It's about a protocol to restore mito health using mitochondrial dynamics.

[Mr Serendipity]

Heard, was not my intention to derail the thread.

Edited by Jesus is King, 14 March 2021 - 10:29 AM.

[Mr Serendipity]

I have some dumb questions, but I was looking at the protocol, and it seems like the protocol uses normal nicotinamide plus ribose, rather than the Niagen supplement.

 

1. I already have niacinamide, which according to the Amazon title of that product is also known as nicotinamide, is this the correct supplement?

 

2. Is the ribose supplement I need to obtain just regular d-ribose powder/capsules? Or is it a more unique supplement/compound like niagen?

 

The other ones all came up on Amazon with the exact names turnbuckle gave, so that's why I wanted to clarify these 2.

 

Probably dumb questions, but I just wanted to clarify before I made my order.

[stephen_b]

1. I already have niacinamide, which according to the Amazon title of that product is also known as nicotinamide, is this the correct supplement?

 

2. Is the ribose supplement I need to obtain just regular d-ribose powder/capsules? Or is it a more unique supplement/compound like niagen?

 

1. yes, same thing

2. yes, normal d-ribose

[bladedmind]

I did more than ten of the old protocol.   Tried the new two weeks ago, according to the Turnbuckle recipe.   Fission was uncomfortable, fusion comfortable.   With the old protocol many commenters had advice on what substances to avoid in order to prevent interference with fission or fusion.   Much of the advice was quick and unreferenced, or even ambiguously expressed.   Anyway, I learned the hard way to avoid metformin during fission, and avoided it in the new protocol 24-hour period.   Can anyone else suggest avoidance lists - important rather than a list of 20 in class?

 

By the way, I'm 71 and I think primarily because of Turnbuckle treatments and perhaps other remedies my physical stamina is that of a 35-year old.  Outhiked my son and daughter-in-law the other day.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

re post #1852

 

bladedmind, what was "the hard way"? And how did you determine it was metformin that learned you the hard way?

[Danniel]

I learned the hard way not to try to make the Dalai lama protocol, "one with everything". Eager to get max results  asap, I made a mix of all Turnbuckle's protocols as they all have fission and fusion phases. Don't do it.

I was kind of lucky that I have a couple of weak links: NAFLD and autoimmune thyroiditis. The excruciating pains in my liver were a very effective wake-up call. Removed everything from my stack. Started to follow the newest mito protocol reasonable well (I'm using the AAKG I bought the day before the new protocol was released) and the results are astounding and a bit surprising.

 

if you have any conditions, always do a bit of research and check to avoid nasty interactions and side-effects.  Fisetin triggers nasty things in NAFLD.

 

And, thanks  Turnbuckle!

[bladedmind]

Turnbuckle himself, and others, advised against doing metformin during fission.  My first round I adhered to that.  My second I forgot to.  Felt really bad during fission.   Don't feel that bad when I avoid metformin during fission.  Subjective challenge test. 

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle himself, and others, advised against doing metformin during fission.  My first round I adhered to that.  My second I forgot to.  Felt really bad during fission.   Don't feel that bad when I avoid metformin during fission.  Subjective challenge test. 

 

 

I don't recall saying that, but I do agree that the protocol should be kept to a bare minimum, and not add in other components with varied and poorly understood functions. Metformin is in that category. It is reported to increase fission and mitophagy while simultaneously enhancing respiration via AMPK. Perhaps it pushed mitophagy too far. Another poster said he had doubled up on most everything and then didn't feel too good during fission. Cells are only capable of eliminating so many mitochondria per cycle, and not like the cell doesn't have other stuff to recycle. So there's no reason to kill yourself with the protocol. Taking it slow is best.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 March 2021 - 10:00 PM.

[mike20g]

I did second cycle of the latest protocol after waiting about 10 days. Again used about half dosage. This time around went smoother, I did not experience heart squeeze feeling.. My energy was not down as much. This time I did not do even symbolocal workout. Day 2 T+7-8 hours I took valerian root, because I subjectively feel it is doing something good for me during fusion day, hard to explain, but I feel it. I will take another pause before repeating cycle. At some point I want to try valerian root in Day 1 too to see if it does anything for me.

The outcome this cycle was same as in previous one, increased physical and mental energy/efficiency, but without heart squeeze feeling...

I don't have any known heart problems. Interestingly for many years I avoided sleeping on the left side, because after I spent several minutes in that position my left side/heart will hurt for a long time... Someting my grandfather had... After cycle 1 I can spend a long time on a left side without a problem... Don't know how to explain that.

[Empiricus]

I've completed 19 days of an approximation of the new Turnbuckle protocol -- almost 10 cycles.  As suggested by Turnbuckle, I conducted dumbbell reps in the mornings to measure my progress.  

 

Av. # of reps fission days 1,3, 5 = 33.7  

Av. # of reps fission days 15, 17, 19 = 41.7

 

Av. # of reps fusion days 2,4, 6 = 41.3      

Av. # of reps fusion days 14,16, 18 = 47.3 

 

I'm a bit perplexed by these results because the day of "score convergence" keeps falling further beyond reach. It seems to me that Turnbuckle didn't experience as much improvement in his fusion day performance as I am experiencing. Nevertheless, the 25% greater increase in fission day performance relative to fusion day performance (+8 reps vs +6 reps) seems in line with the stated expectations of the protocol.

 

Possibly I took more stearic acid on fusion days than could be eliminated in time for fission.  
Maybe the timing of the AAKG was off the mark or AAKG is simply not as effective as AKG.  

It could also be that I accumulated lots of weak mitochondria from having consumed copious amounts of

GMS with dark chocolate as part of a Turnbuckle-inspired COVID recovery protocol from late

July to December 2020.  In other words, having spent 6 months mostly in a state of fusion, 19 days might not be sufficient to clear out all the junk. 

 

Main way my fusion and fission days differed from Turnbuckle:

- consumed 8-12g AAKG about 30-45 min prior to other stuff (1g AKG specified)

- reduced PQQ to 10mg (20mg PQQ specified)

 

Main ways my fusion days differed from Turnbuckle:

- consumed 8-12g of GMS in 50g dark chocolate (1g GMS specified)

 

Main ways my fission days differed from Turnbuckle: 

- consumed 1.5g of niacinamide (1g niacinamide specified)

- consumed 2g ribose (1g ribose specified)

- consumed 100mg apigenin (not specified)

- fission days 7 and 9 were probably not very effective because I ate dark chocolate 

Edited by Empiricus, 16 March 2021 - 10:45 AM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Empiricus, do you only do reps on fission/fusion days or are you weight training on other days too? If you do train on other days do you do exercises that would affect the muscles that are involved in performing dumbbell reps? Had your reps plateaued before starting fission/fusion? What arm is your dominant arm? Do both arms fail at the indicated reps? Were your arms equal in strength prior to fission/fusion? Maybe part/all of the effect of increasing reps is due to the fact that you might be getting stronger?

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 16 March 2021 - 03:46 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I've completed 19 days of an approximation of the new Turnbuckle protocol -- almost 10 cycles.  As suggested by Turnbuckle, I conducted dumbbell reps in the mornings to measure my progress.  

 

Av. # of reps fission days 1,3, 5 = 33.7  

Av. # of reps fission days 15, 17, 19 = 41.7

 

Av. # of reps fusion days 2,4, 6 = 41.3      

Av. # of reps fusion days 14,16, 18 = 47.3 

 

Unless you're totally convinced that you've reached a plateau, keep on going.