2284 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

I was doing m-fission and m-fusion eod for the last 2 months.

On fission-days I was doing strength-training and on fusion-days endurance-training. 

 

Now I'm stuck in both areas: VO2max stays at 40 and my strength is not increasing anymore. 

 

Do you think it would make sense to train vice versa? So endurance (HIIT) on fission-days and strength on fusion-days?

 

 

You are doing it with AKG and PQQ, right?

[MarcD]

yes, sure:
 

m-fission

● NAM+R, 1 g of each

● AKG, 1 g (4g AAKG)

● PQQ, 20 mg

 

m-fusion

● Stearic Acid 2g in 98% Chocolate,

Sulphoraphane (Broccomax, 3 caps)

● AKG, 1 g (4g AAKG)

● PQQ, 20 mg 

 

not taking any vitamins on fission-days, but some D3+K2, creatine, l-carnitine and B-vitamins on fusion-days

 

red light therapy and hydrogenated water every day (except after Stem cell renew day, because of the C60)

Maybe once every 14 days I'm doing the full updated age reversing protocol including C60, SAM-e ...

Edited by MarcD, 21 June 2021 - 05:51 AM.

[kurt9]

I'm on my third cycle today (today is fission day, tomorrow is fusion). I feel that slightly rundown feeling like I'm on the verge of catching a cold or flu. I take it this is normal for fission. I felt it the first two times as well. But the fusion cleared things up straight away. I'm hoping as the mitochondrial damage gets repaired, that the effect will become less noticeable with succeeding cycles.

 

I chose summer to do this because I figured the hot weather will make it less likely I actually catch anything as a result of fission. 

[Helios]

I read previously in the thread that if one eat meat heavy meals say 0.5kg red meat it provides 5g stearic acid which could interfere with this protocol by boosting fusion when not intended. Assuming one doesn't want to change the composition of the meals how should one adjust the eating pattern:

 

If one follows this protocol:

Monday evening: M-Fission stack.

Tuesday evening: M-Fusion stack

Wednesday evening: M-Fission stack.

etc

 

Questions:

1. When people talk about the fission day is that Tuesday in this scheme?

2. To avoid messing with the fission stack would it be better to skip Monday dinner or Tuesday breakfast?

3. Any minimum time to take between Monday dinner and the evening M-Fission stack?

4. would it be advisable to eat a early dinner or maybe skip it on Monday/Wednesday

5. if one does OneMealADay - Monday:breakfast Tuesday:dinner Wednesday:breakfast would be the ideal protocol would it not?

6. Any other ways to modify eating pattern to allow for the protocol to work?

 

[kurt9]

I take mine in the morning with a very light breakfast. I'm on my fifth cycle. I do two cycles per week, with my regular supplements on the days I don't do either fission or fusion (regular supplements are Carnosine, TMG, and LEF mix). I will continue this protocol until Labor day weekend. Then I will call it a job well done.

 

BTW, I almost never have more than 200 grams of meat per day. Usually 100 grams or so. That's still a quarter pound of meat.

Edited by kurt9, 09 July 2021 - 02:09 PM.

[Unclebob]

Hi Helios 

 

I follow a keto based regime with fasting.  On fusion days I would suggest eating as usual and on fission days cut down on the meat and perhaps fast.

 

What diet regime are you following as you are eating a lot of protein there?

 

Cheers and good luck

[Turnbuckle]

 

I read previously in the thread that if one eat meat heavy meals say 0.5kg red meat it provides 5g stearic acid which could interfere with this protocol by boosting fusion when not intended. Assuming one doesn't want to change the composition of the meals how should one adjust the eating pattern:

 

If one follows this protocol:

Monday evening: M-Fission stack.

Tuesday evening: M-Fusion stack

Wednesday evening: M-Fission stack.

etc

 

Questions:

1. When people talk about the fission day is that Tuesday in this scheme?

2. To avoid messing with the fission stack would it be better to skip Monday dinner or Tuesday breakfast?

3. Any minimum time to take between Monday dinner and the evening M-Fission stack?

4. would it be advisable to eat a early dinner or maybe skip it on Monday/Wednesday

5. if one does OneMealADay - Monday:breakfast Tuesday:dinner Wednesday:breakfast would be the ideal protocol would it not?

6. Any other ways to modify eating pattern to allow for the protocol to work?

 

 

There's no reason to guess at things. See the "curls to failure" bit here. If you see the pattern in the plot, it is working. 

[Nate-2004]

This was posted on Reddit today, I think I missed this article. I hope it wasn't already linked.

 

https://www.scienced...0300063#sec0095

 

 

Mitochondrial fission and fusion: A dynamic role in aging and potential target for age-related disease

https://doi.org/10.1...mad.2020.111212

 

Highlights

Mitochondrial fission and fusion are implicated in age-related human pathologies.

 

Crucial to mitochondrial regulation is their dynamic nature in a network structure.

 

Mitochondrial fission and fusion are connected to cell cycle regulation, quality control, and transmission of energy status.

 

Abstract

The mitochondria is the major hub to convert energy for cellular processes. Dysregulation of mitochondrial function is one of the classical hallmarks of aging, and mitochondrial interventions have repeatedly been shown to improve outcomes in age-related diseases. Crucial to mitochondrial regulation is the dynamic nature of their network structure. Mitochondria separate and merge using fission and fusion processes in response to changes in energy and stress status. While many mitochondrial processes are already characterized in relation to aging, specific evidence in multicellular organisms causally linking mitochondrial dynamics to the regulation of lifespan is limited. There does exist, however, a large body of evidence connecting mitochondrial dynamics to other aging-related cellular processes and implicates them in a number of human diseases. Here, we discuss the mechanisms of mitochondrial fission and fusion, the current evidence of their role in aging of multicellular organisms, and how these connect to cell cycle regulation, quality control, and transmission of energy status. Finally, we discuss the current evidence implicating these processes in age-related human pathologies, such as neurodegenerative or cardio-metabolic diseases. We suggest that deeper understanding of the regulatory mechanisms within this system and downstream implications could benefit in understanding and intervention of these conditions.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 11 July 2021 - 09:12 PM.

[Stanfoo]

What's the reasoning for feeling crappy on fission days?

[Stanfoo]

Any problems with taking mitoQ during mito1/mito2 phases?

 

Already on daily PQQ+mitoQ.

 

[Turnbuckle]

What's the reasoning for feeling crappy on fission days?

 

You have damaged mitochondria. When they are all removed, you won't feel crappy due to fission. Until then, I suggest you do fission in the evenings.

 

 

Any problems with taking mitoQ during mito1/mito2 phases?

 

Already on daily PQQ+mitoQ.

 

 

I suggest you not take mitoQ with this protocol.

[kurt9]

You have damaged mitochondria. When they are all removed, you won't feel crappy due to fission. Until then, I suggest you do fission in the evenings.

 

I'm on my 6th cycle. I feel a bit slow when working out in the gym on fission days. I'm OK other than that. I'm doing two cycles per week. I expect the fission period to be improved by August. I plan to do this protocol until mid-September. I started near the end of June.

[Danniel]

Maybe this was already answered and I couldn't find it: Why not put together the Mito and the Stem Cell protocols? Why not clear in the same swipe the senescent cells AND the damaged mitochondria?

[Turnbuckle]

Maybe this was already answered and I couldn't find it: Why not put together the Mito and the Stem Cell protocols? Why not clear in the same swipe the senescent cells AND the damaged mitochondria?

 

 

Some aspects could be combined, but the mito protocol is a neat package that could take as little as a month to complete, and is very easy to monitor at home. The SC protocol is rather long term by comparison, and monitoring requires tests that can take six weeks to get back. So it isn't a natural fit.

[Perunyol]

There's no reason to guess at things. See the "curls to failure" bit here. If you see the pattern in the plot, it is working. 

 

The problem for us following a carnivore diet is that if it doesn't work we don't know whether it's because our mitochondria are optimized or because we eat so much stearic acid that the N+R combo does not kick us into Fission. 

 

For example, I followed the protocol doing the "push-ups to failure" bit and did not see the pattern at all. Control, Fusion and Fission days I did the same number of repetitions. And I don't believe that my mitochondria are already optimized.

 

Since I am doing Carnivore as an elimination diet it comes with a cost for me to substitute beef for something else to avoid nutritional Fusion. Nevertheless, I am planning on doing a chicken+fisk week and see if I can get in and out of Fission/Fusion. 

 

Will post if anything interesting happens.

 

Saludos,

 

S.

[Stanfoo]

Can we just take all the supplements at the same time or do we have to space certain things apart?

 

In my case all the supplements are capsulated, except for GMS.

[Turnbuckle]

The problem for us following a carnivore diet is that if it doesn't work we don't know whether it's because our mitochondria are optimized or because we eat so much stearic acid that the N+R combo does not kick us into Fission. 

 

For example, I followed the protocol doing the "push-ups to failure" bit and did not see the pattern at all. Control, Fusion and Fission days I did the same number of repetitions. And I don't believe that my mitochondria are already optimized.

 

Since I am doing Carnivore as an elimination diet it comes with a cost for me to substitute beef for something else to avoid nutritional Fusion. Nevertheless, I am planning on doing a chicken+fisk week and see if I can get in and out of Fission/Fusion. 

 

Will post if anything interesting happens.

 

Saludos,

 

S.

 

 

If you have been in fusion for a long time, then definitely you will have defective mitochondria. I don't know what to tell you except that you will have change your diet prior to fission. Either that or give up on this protocol.

[PAMPAGUY]

I feel very tired on Fusion days and more energy on Fission days.  Any ideas from Turnbuckle or anyone.  This is opposite from most everyone's experiences.

 

[Turnbuckle]

I feel very tired on Fusion days and more energy on Fission days.  Any ideas from Turnbuckle or anyone.  This is opposite from most everyone's experiences.

 

 

If you are still taking NAC, stop. It inhibits mitophagy.

[striker_321]

If you have been in fusion for a long time, then definitely you will have defective mitochondria. I don't know what to tell you except that you will have change your diet prior to fission. Either that or give up on this protocol.

 

I have a few questions that I am curious about:

1) If one were to be using NIR photobiomodulation (810nm, 850nm)

, should this be stacked on fisson or fusion days? Based on my reading, I was leaning toward the latter, but was wondering your thoughts on this.

2) PQQ makes me incredibly tired and lethargic at almost any dose, as a part of the protocol, or on its own. Is this a sign of defective mitochondria in your opinion?

 

[Turnbuckle]

 

2) PQQ makes me incredibly tired and lethargic at almost any dose, as a part of the protocol, or on its own. Is this a sign of defective mitochondria in your opinion?

 

I wouldn't stack this protocol with anything. As for feeling tired with PQQ+fission, that would be expected until you got rid of defective mitochondria. I suppose you might also feel tired with PQQ+fusion, if you had very few good mitochondria. Is that a possibility? Have you ever used mito damaging drugs like statins?

 

Drug classes identified to cause mitochondrial toxicity are anti-diabetic drugs (thiazolidinediones, fibrates, biguanides), cholesterol lowering drugs (statins), anti-depressants (SARIs), pain medications (NSAIDs), certain antibiotics (fluroquinolones, macrolide), and anti-cancer drugs (kinase inhibitors and anthracyclins) [48]. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6628177/

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 July 2021 - 12:10 AM.

[Stanfoo]

Did 2 cycles, felt no different. Apparently if this was benefiting your body you'd feel worse on fission days.

 

Guess it's of no benefit to me.

[Helios]

I feel very tired on Fusion days and more energy on Fission days.  Any ideas from Turnbuckle or anyone.  This is opposite from most everyone's experiences.

 

I also feel good on fission days. My curls are worse on fission and better on fusion days as predicted by the protocol though.

[Helios]

If you have been in fusion for a long time, then definitely you will have defective mitochondria. I don't know what to tell you except that you will have change your diet prior to fission. Either that or give up on this protocol.

 

After one have done as many cycles that's needed to get to 0% bad mitochondria according to the curl reps how long should one wait to do a cycle?. once a month? once a year?

 

How often do you do a cycle?

 

 

There's no reason to guess at things. See the "curls to failure" bit here. If you see the pattern in the plot, it is working. 

 

 

i Skipped the fission day breakfast and had fusion dinner early. which according to my reps seem to have worked even though im eating meat heavy when i eat.

[Helios]

Did 2 cycles, felt no different. Apparently if this was benefiting your body you'd feel worse on fission days.

 

Guess it's of no benefit to me.

 

I did not notice much difference between the days.  think fission was probably  better but my curl test showed the expected pattern.

 

Did you do the curl test?

[Turnbuckle]

Did 2 cycles, felt no different. Apparently if this was benefiting your body you'd feel worse on fission days.

 

Guess it's of no benefit to me.

 

Did you try the exercise to failure? How long it will take you to finish is highly dependent on how bad your mitochondria are to begin with. Contrary to what you might expect, the process will start slow and then finish fast. If you have a high proportion of defective mitochondria, you might be getting rid of one to two percent initially.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 July 2021 - 08:18 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

There are many drugs that can damage mitochondria, but certainly the most pervasive is sodium fluoride. A paper published this year examined the effect of fluoride levels on child intelligence in China and found —

 

Water/urinary fluoride concentrations were negatively associated with not only IQ scores but mtDNA content...

https://www.scienced...048969721024013

 

 

 

In another Chinese study, obesity in children was linked to fluoride content —

 

Our results suggest low-to-moderate fluoride exposure is associated with overweight and obesity in children. 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/31509932/

 

 

 

And-

 

Circulating mtDNA content is negatively related to low-to-moderate fluoride exposure.

https://www.scienced...160412018326291

 

 

 

It isn’t surprising that lower mtDNA content would impact both intelligence and obesity, as lower mtDNA content will directly correlate with lower ATP output. Methylation of mtDNA should have similar effects. The effect on mtDNA methylation hasn’t yet been studied, but there are studies showing that sodium fluoride screws up methylation of nuclear DNA, so likely its effect is even more profound on mtDNA, which replicates far more rapidly.

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 July 2021 - 10:24 AM.

[kurt9]

There are many drugs that can damage mitochondria, but certainly the most pervasive is sodium fluoride. A paper published this year examined the effect of fluoride levels on child intelligence in China and found —

 

 

 

In another Chinese study, obesity in children was linked to fluoride content —

 

 

 

And-

 

 

It isn’t surprising that lower mtDNA content would impact both intelligence and obesity, as lower mtDNA content will directly correlate with lower ATP output. Methylation of mtDNA should have similar effects. The effect on mtDNA methylation hasn’t yet been studied, but there are studies showing that sodium fluoride screws up methylation of nuclear DNA, so likely its effect is even more profound on mtDNA, which replicates far more rapidly.

 

This is interesting for the debate over tap water fluoridation. I have a friend who was apposed to this not because he though fluoridation in and of itself was bad. But that they substituted Silicate acid for Sodium Fluoride, because the latter was tested for toxicity and the former was not. But if Sodium Fluoride (the gold standard of Fluoridation) is bad, then maybe this whole Fluoridation thing needs to be thought out because the critics of it may have a point. 

[striker_321]

I wouldn't stack this protocol with anything. As for feeling tired with PQQ+fission, that would be expected until you got rid of defective mitochondria. I suppose you might also feel tired with PQQ+fusion, if you had very few good mitochondria. Is that a possibility? Have you ever used mito damaging drugs like statins?

 

Thank you for your reply and the information. I have not taken anything other than levofloxacin that is directly damaging to mitochondria and that was only one 10 day cycle may years ago. I do have chronic insomnia, so I would assume I am under a higher amount of oxidative stress than a normal person would be. I'm not sure if that information is helpful.

 

On its own, AKG is pretty stimulating in a clean way and definitely helps aerobic exercise. I am finding that it gets overpowered by the PQQ in the stack however.

[striker_321]

This is interesting for the debate over tap water fluoridation. I have a friend who was apposed to this not because he though fluoridation in and of itself was bad. But that they substituted Silicate acid for Sodium Fluoride, because the latter was tested for toxicity and the former was not. But if Sodium Fluoride (the gold standard of Fluoridation) is bad, then maybe this whole Fluoridation thing needs to be thought out because the critics of it may have a point. 

 

Tea has much higher levels of fluoride in it than any drinking water in developed countries as most teas hyperaccumulate fluoride from the soil. Despite this, there isn't really any evidence of tea harming cognition, and green tea has numerous studies on the improvement of various cognitive parameters with its consumption, despite its high fluoride content. A few studies to address this point:

 

Risk Assessment of Fluoride Intake from Tea in the Republic of Ireland and its Implications for Public Health and Water Fluoridation

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4808922/

 

No effects of black tea on cognitive decline among older US men: a prospective cohort study

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6091662/

 

Green tea effects on cognition, mood and human brain function: A systematic review

https://www.scienced...944711317300867