2291 replies to this topic

[PAMPAGUY]

More thoughts on how to taper off the protocol. 

 

Once defective mitochondria are completely eliminated*, then there is no point in continuing. In post 438 I advocated leaving the protocol with several days of fusion, thus leaving cells with a high mitochondrial mass. But that's not the only concern. Another is where the NAD+/NADH ratio is at that point. In my experience that ratio seems to be surprisingly persistent, and a state of fusion is not a good place to leave it. So tailing off with a final fission dose to raise the NAD+ level might be best. One dose is not going to do much to the mito mass, especially if they are all healthy. Then the question is what to do long term. If the decline of NAD+ with age is due to the decline of healthy mitochondria in a vicious feedback loop, then one could leave it there. But if there is some other source for the decline of NAD+, then topping off NAD+ with an occasional small dose of N+R might be required.

 

*The cellular load of defective mitochondria is likely to vary considerably from cell to cell in a stochastic fashion. Some may already be close to death due to a heavy load of them, and thus will require much longer to return to a healthy state. 

Thank you for your contributions to this forum.  I'm impressed.  This will be my first post to this forum.  I'm 71 yo., was taking NR 500 mg daily, but was tired all the time, so I went to twice a week of 500 mg, but after reading your protocol I was doing it all wrong.  Needed to be doing the Fission/Fusion regime. I will be following your lead.  I have previously bought 360,  250 mg NR, so will be using that until exhausted, then N+R. The only question, I had was the experiment that Dr. Brenner did on himself and others pointed to no NAD+ improvement over the 500 mg dose.  I noticed that your taking 1-2 gm. for the Fission part, but what is the latest on the Fusion part?  (keeps changing with further experimentation of course)  Also, the time in between.

 

What is the latest.  I want to do it right.

[Turnbuckle]

 

More thoughts on how to taper off the protocol. 

 

Once defective mitochondria are completely eliminated*, then there is no point in continuing. In post 438 I advocated leaving the protocol with several days of fusion, thus leaving cells with a high mitochondrial mass. But that's not the only concern. Another is where the NAD+/NADH ratio is at that point. In my experience that ratio seems to be surprisingly persistent, and a state of fusion is not a good place to leave it. So tailing off with a final fission dose to raise the NAD+ level might be best. One dose is not going to do much to the mito mass, especially if they are all healthy. Then the question is what to do long term. If the decline of NAD+ with age is due to the decline of healthy mitochondria in a vicious feedback loop, then one could leave it there. But if there is some other source for the decline of NAD+, then topping off NAD+ with an occasional small dose of N+R might be required.

 

*The cellular load of defective mitochondria is likely to vary considerably from cell to cell in a stochastic fashion. Some may already be close to death due to a heavy load of them, and thus will require much longer to return to a healthy state. 

Thank you for your contributions to this forum.  I'm impressed.  This will be my first post to this forum.  I'm 71 yo., was taking NR 500 mg daily, but was tired all the time, so I went to twice a week of 500 mg, but after reading your protocol I was doing it all wrong.  Needed to be doing the Fission/Fusion regime. I will be following your lead.  I have previously bought 360,  250 mg NR, so will be using that until exhausted, then N+R. The only question, I had was the experiment that Dr. Brenner did on himself and others pointed to no NAD+ improvement over the 500 mg dose.  I noticed that your taking 1-2 gm. for the Fission part, but what is the latest on the Fusion part?  (keeps changing with further experimentation of course)  Also, the time in between.

 

What is the latest.  I want to do it right.

 

 

For the protocol, see post 420. Ultimately I decided to separate fission and fusion and do several days of each. See post 438--

 

So the bottom line:

 

1.    For the protocol, 3 or 4 days of fission, then 3 or 4 days of fusion, then at least one day off (esp. if stearic acid is used for fusion).

 

 

It is even more effective to use fission with exercise, (using 2g nicotinamide and no tryptophan) and allowing 1.5-2 hours before going to the gym. Expect to use less weight on the machines, and that is fine.

 

Everything I've said about N+R has to be modified if you are using NR, as there is a delay of several hours for the latter, which appears to be the time required for it to be digested back to N+R. As for my experiments, I had some wild results early on with N+R and the protocol itself went through a number of changes, ultimately ending where I am now, and even that is still changing. For older people with a lot of defective mitochondria (as I was), I would start slowly and not do more than two days of fission in a row, as it takes a while for lysosomes to digest those defective mitochondria. The effects may be stronger at first, before tapering off after some weeks or months. Younger people might find little effect and no value to going to higher doses, but if you have developed zombie mitochondria, larger doses may be required.

 

When normal mitophagic organelle elimination is suppressed by Parkin insufficiency, abnormal undead or zombie mitochondria accumulate and (as zombies will do) contaminate the normal mitochondrial population by fusing with normal organelles. Mitochondrial fusion that is ordinarily protective, therefore, becomes the mechanism for a general contagion of mitochondrial dysfunction

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4392818/

 

 

If Brenner found a low dose of NR to be sufficient, that may be because he is younger. The 2g N + 3g R I'm using is roughly equivalent to 4g NR. I've tried more than that, but didn't see an advantage, while .5g N + .7g R might be a good maintenance dose.

[Andey]

Are there any value to add DCA (Dichloroacetic acid) to the fission part or on its own ?

It should increase PDH, shifting preference to aerobic glucose metabolism and further decreasing lactate. There are a bunch of studies on the effect of DCA on mitochondrial function.

Edited by Andey, 19 October 2017 - 11:55 AM.

[MikeDC]

d-Ribose increases glycated hemoglobin: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29033370

The lab rats in this thread better check out Their A1C fast. NR lowers A1C. If N+R is equal to NR, it should too. This paper obviously says otherwise.

[Turnbuckle]

 

LCFAs Are Essential for UCP1 Uncoupling

 

Despite the agreement that LCFAs activate UCP1, there has been a controversy as to whether LCFAs are absolutely required for UCP1 uncoupling or whether UCP1 has some constitutive, LCFA-independent activity (Garlid et al., 1998; Klingenberg, 2010; Nicholls, 2006). Here we demonstrate under well-controlled conditions that native UCP1 requires LCFAs for its H+ transport activity, and that LCFAs serve as permanently attached UCP1 substrates that help to carry H+ through UCP1. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3782081/

 

 

 

 

Long chain fatty acids definitely work for uncoupling, in my experience. Oils with the least amount of stearic acid would be best for use with fission. Olive oil has 0.5 to 5% stearic acid while avocado oil may be better with only .1 to 2%, with .1% typical. Adding oil is sleep inducing, so if it has any value, it would be at night.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 October 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[MikeDC]

d-Ribose increases glycated hemoglobin: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29033370

Since taking d-ribose create a diabetes environment in cells. It creates mitochandrial dysfunction according to this paper. https://www.ncbi.nlm...ondria dynamics

[Turnbuckle]

Mike, would you please stop posting to this thread?

[ambivalent]

To add further to my original post, I've had 4 more days of left-flank, presumably, kidney pain. I went to a walk-in surgery where only the most basic of tests were carried out but urine was examined. Although not seen from the naked eye there it was discovered were small traces of blood. It may take a couple of weeks to see my GP.  To add to the d-ribose  - hyperglycemia discussion, this on the kidney's role in blood regulation:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22559853

 

In hyperglycemia, the kidneys may play an exacerbating role by reabsorbing excess glucose, ultimately contributing to chronic hyperglycemia, which in turn contributes to chronic glycemic burden and the risk of microvascular consequences.

 

​​Preceding the kidney pain, as mentioned, extremity pain, noted especially in the feet (and previously when using NR, leading up to this I have used both NR and N+R). Foot pain has been a common side-effect reported from  NR users.

 

https://www.buzzle.c...n-symptoms.html

 

It could well be that I've experienced kidney stones resulting from very large vitamin D doses over the  two years; however the timing would be more suggestive of hyperglycemia, especially as the foot-pains were very pronounced the day before.

 

If it is damage to the kidney by hyperglycemia, any thoughts as to how to proceed? What would be the best approach to healing? 

[MikeDC]

NR doesn’t cause hyperglycemia. Vitamin D doesn’t cause kidney stones according to two studies.
https://www.vitamind...-kidney-stones/

NR is probably the best drug to protect kidney.

[ambivalent]

NR doesn’t cause hyperglycemia. Vitamin D doesn’t cause kidney stones according to two studies.
https://www.vitamind...-kidney-stones/

NR is probably the best drug to protect kidney.

 

Thanks for the links but this doesn't demonstrate the risk of high levels of vitamin D, it could be a U-curve. Low levels may trigger other kidney stone risk factors (or be correlative with them).

 

 

Consider this very old study:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7424691

 

(Anyhow we need to leave the Vit D discussion alone on this thread)

 

 

With regards to NR, that it can help kidney function does not exclude the possibility it can hinder it too. My experience would suggest  NR can break down quite quickly in to N+R (since I experienced a histamine reaction to the nicotinamide quite quickly) . So there could be a lot of Ribose available and hence so risk of hyperglycemia. It could simply come down to dosing levels - raised NAD might compensate for the ribose at lower levels, say but excess ribose might drown out the benefits..

 

Now I am a fan of NR, I've had some exceptional effects but I've had some poor ones too at high doses. It needs understanding and explaining.

 

The foot pains have been reported multiple times with NR and no one to date, as far as I am aware, has offered an explanation - it is a side-effect and one I have undoubtedly experienced with NR.

[MikeDC]

I don’t want to get into N+R discussion again. Let’s just say people are getting exceptional results from NR that they don’t get from the other two supplements. I don’t understand why people keep using high doses of NR if they feel it is causing bad effects. 125 mg or 250mg are probably good enough for most people.

I had shoulder pain for a few months while on NR. But it eventually went away and never came back.

[ambivalent]

My initial experiences with NR related foot pain occurred a year ago at fairly low doses (<500mg) lasting a few weeks, but it wasn't always evident later even at high doses. Obviously it has returned lately and may possibly be caused by either N+R, or NR in my case. I believe that the other reported cases were low doses too. It could be that it is a risk factor for those with elevated BG levels. Anyhow, if I recover I am going to be super-cautious with any high doses - most likely only after lengthy fasts.

 

I hope the hyperglycemia-ribose connection isn't considered OT

Edited by ambivalent, 20 October 2017 - 12:36 AM.

[zorba990]

There is definately something to adding 500mg Niacin to this protocol. Tried this a few times: 3g niacinamide 5g ribose 500mg niacin. With niacin the libido raising and joint recovery effect seems stronger. I wonder what adding melanotan would do?

[stephen_b]

Anyone try an aerobic (endurance) workout while doing fission? How did it go?

[HaplogroupW]

 

Anyone try an aerobic (endurance) workout while doing fission? How did it go?

 

I'm doing my first "fission". The fission corresponds to a five day extended fast (four days in), and I'm doing endurance exercise. I've been exercising during fasts for a good part of this year. I don't notice any subjective difference between with and without the fission. My endurance exercise is cycling. Mostly steady state moderate intensity with a few intervals (hill climbs). On this fast, I've done two 40 mile rides and one 20, and will probably do another 20 mile ride tomorrow before ending the fast/fission.

 

Well one disclaimer: this fission is 1.25g NR/day. I'll have to get some niacinamide and ribose on hand to be able to do the multi-gram dose like Turnbuckle describes. So maybe my fission doesn't qualify. Other details: I also stopped anti-oxidants, and supplement aspirin, berberine and gynostemma (for AMPK).

 

Another detail is that I eat vegetarian keto when I eat, and have been "fat adapted" for a while such that I can ride longer distances without bonking or needing to eat anything. Before I was keto, I could feel my intensity flagging after about the halfway of a 40 miler if I didn't eat an apple or some such.

[Nate-2004]

I think NR counts HaplogroupW. I'm not sure if endurance exercise depletes ATP as well as just doing resistance exercises like calisthenics or weight lifting. I think that was the goal, to quote Turnbuckle from the Exercise Like a Girl thread:

 

 

The purpose of fission in this protocol is dual--to lower ATP production to get more credit for a given amount of exercise, and to target defective mitochondria for mitophagy. Calorie restriction tends to increase mitophagy--

 

Though I don't fully understand the role of ATP and what it has to do with inducing QC and/or mitophagy if it has anything at all to do with it.

Edited by Nate-2004, 23 October 2017 - 02:08 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

I think NR counts HaplogroupW. I'm not sure if endurance exercise depletes ATP as well as just doing resistance exercises like calisthenics or weight lifting. I think that was the goal, to quote Turnbuckle from the Exercise Like a Girl thread:

 

 

The purpose of fission in this protocol is dual--to lower ATP production to get more credit for a given amount of exercise, and to target defective mitochondria for mitophagy. Calorie restriction tends to increase mitophagy--

 

Though I don't fully understand the role of ATP and what it has to do with inducing QC and/or mitophagy if it has anything at all to do with it.

 

 

I clearly wasn't saying that low ATP causes mitochondria to be targeted. I was saying the fission allows defective mitochondria to be targeted. Fissioning mitochondria so that only one mtDNA loop is in a mitochondrion will expose damage that would not otherwise be seen by the QC machinery. While ATP production and membrane potential are linked, it is actually low membrane potential that leads to mitophagy--

 

Mitochondrial membrane potential (Δψm) is the driving force for mitochondrial ATP synthesis. Depolarization below a certain Δψm may indicate impaired mitochondrial function and is a prerequisite for mitophagy

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3538875/

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 October 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Anyone try an aerobic (endurance) workout while doing fission? How did it go?

 

I'm doing my first "fission". The fission corresponds to a five day extended fast (four days in), and I'm doing endurance exercise. I've been exercising during fasts for a good part of this year. I don't notice any subjective difference between with and without the fission. My endurance exercise is cycling. Mostly steady state moderate intensity with a few intervals (hill climbs). On this fast, I've done two 40 mile rides and one 20, and will probably do another 20 mile ride tomorrow before ending the fast/fission.

 

Well one disclaimer: this fission is 1.25g NR/day. I'll have to get some niacinamide and ribose on hand to be able to do the multi-gram dose like Turnbuckle describes. So maybe my fission doesn't qualify. Other details: I also stopped anti-oxidants, and supplement aspirin, berberine and gynostemma (for AMPK).

 

 

 

Keep in mind that with NR there's a long delay. See Fig. 5b where NAD+ does not peak with NR until six hours after ingestion.  With N+R there is no lab data, but it appears to occur at 1-2 hours when taken on an empty stomach. Also, note that 2g N + 3g R is equivalent to about 4g NR.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 October 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[aribadabar]

Also, note that 2g N + 3g R is equivalent to about 4g NR.

 

Would you go into details about this calculation?

How have you arrived at this equivalency?

 

Thanks!

[Turnbuckle]

From the data available, it appears that NR is broken down in the stomach and/or liver, thus N+R is the same as NR but without the time delay for digestion. NR is about 1/2 N by weight, thus 2 grams of N + a stoichiometric excess of ribose should be equivalent to 4 grams of NR. See this thread.

[MikeDC]

From the data available, it appears that NR is broken down in the stomach and/or liver, thus N+R is the same as NR but without the time delay for digestion. NR is about 1/2 N by weight, thus 2 grams of N + a stoichiometric excess of ribose should be equivalent to 4 grams of NR. See this thread.

You only find one paper that says NAD+ is broken down to NR and later to N+R. Other studies indicate NR is more effective at activating Sirtuins than Nicotinamide and Niacin. NR is a STAC while Nicotinamide and Niacin are not.

Based on existing data, my guess is all of NR is converted to NAD+ In the liver and the higher NAD+ feeds into other organs. They might get converted back to NR before entering the cells.

[Nate-2004]

I wish I hadn't ordered the NAM and D-Ribose just yet, but I did get the minimum amount, I'm still on the fence about N+R vs. NR but that discussion is for the other thread.

 

That said, I think NR is fine for this protocol for anyone in doubt, it's just more expensive. $78 for 180 on Amazon. 

 

I am willing to try it.

 

This is a hotly debated issue that I think we should use Ichor to answer.

[Turnbuckle]

That said, I think NR is fine for this protocol for anyone in doubt, it's just more expensive. $78 for 180 on Amazon. 

 

 

 

Keep in mind the delay for NR. With mice the NAD+ peak is 6 hours after taking it, and it may be longer for humans. 

[able]

 

From the data available, it appears that NR is broken down in the stomach and/or liver, thus N+R is the same as NR but without the time delay for digestion. NR is about 1/2 N by weight, thus 2 grams of N + a stoichiometric excess of ribose should be equivalent to 4 grams of NR. See this thread.

You only find one paper that says NAD+ is broken down to NR and later to N+R. Other studies indicate NR is more effective at activating Sirtuins than Nicotinamide and Niacin. NR is a STAC while Nicotinamide and Niacin are not.

Based on existing data, my guess is all of NR is converted to NAD+ In the liver and the higher NAD+ feeds into other organs. They might get converted back to NR before entering the cells.

 

 

 

Please show us any research that indicates ALL NR goes to NAD+ before NAM.

 

In everything I’ve seen the results agree with  the muscle nampt knockout study.

 

Loss of NAD homeostasis leads to progressive and reversible degeneration of skeletal muscle

 

100 minutes after feeding NR supplements (Figure 6)

 

Once again, some quotes from that study:

 

"Our tracer studies suggest that this is largely attributable to breakdown of orally delivered NR into NAM prior to reaching the muscle. "

 

"We found that 100 minutes after oral administration, M+2 NAD was detectable in the liver, whereas the small fraction of NAD labeled in muscle was largely M+1 (Figure 6C, D). "

    

"However, oral NR dosing increased circulating NAM ~40-fold while NMN remained unchanged and NR was detected only at trace levels in the blood." 

 

"Thus, the majority of the orally administered NR that reaches the muscle appears to enter in the form of liberated NAM or as NMN"

 

Note that contrary to others, this study DOES find NR in the bloodstream although at trace levels.

 

So even if the majority of NR is broken down to NAM in intestines or liver, if some makes its way to bloodstream and even a little to muscle or other tissue, it can still be effective (Figure 6f).

 

I'm curious if there is anything we can do to increase the amount of NR that makes it out of the liver, such as combining with other substances.

Edited by able, 24 October 2017 - 04:48 PM.

[MikeDC]

“Nonetheless, our results indicate that NR is more effective than NAM for reversing mNKO phenotypes (Figure S5).“

If the effect is all due to NAM, why NR is more effective at reversing muscles aging?

It could be that NR passes through the system in a time scale much smaller than measurement. The short time elevation of NAD+ helped to reverse muscle aging even though NAD+ content was not elevated in the long run.

The high NAM content could be due to NAD+ degradation after first pass of NR and NAMPT KO.

No matter what the path it took, the paper concludes NR is more effective at reversing muscle aging than NAM. That is all you need to know as a consumer. The end result count. It doesn’t matter if scientists could not explain fully why because of their limited research design.

[RWhigham]

Re: Safety of NAM + Ribose

 

For the last 3 weeks, most days, I have taken a homemade slow release troche containing 300mg NAM and 600mg Ribose to replace NR. I was concerned about effects of the ribose. So, I bought a Walgreen HbA1c kit yesterday and tested my HbA1c this morning.

 

My HbA1c dropped from 5.6% when last tested on April 4, 2016 to 5.3% today. It was a relief to see it did not go up.

That may not be a statistically meaningful drop, but it's an indication ribose + nicotinamide may be combining as intended.

 

I would like to see longer trials with NAM + Ribose taken daily with HbA1c results.

I don't know if the slow release of the troche was important or not. Unfortunately it gave me a cough, so I had to give it up.

 

I am now taking 500 mg of NAM with 700 mg of ribose u.i.d. as suggested by Turnbuckle.

I plan to retest HbA1c in 3 months.

 

I'm not the ideal test subject because I take a lot of other supplements, and for some unknown reason, my HbA1c is higher than it should with an average blood glucose in the 80s (mg/dL)  (measured by testing 30 min and 1 hour after each meal plus every 2 hours for 24 hours).

I'm not an ideal test subject because I take a lot of other supplements.

Also my HbA1c does not correlate properly with my blood sugar. (My HbA1c is much higher than it should be for my blood glucose levels)

 

Edited by RWhigham, 24 October 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Since HbA1c is kind of an average for the previous 60-90 days and your NAM+R had been ingested for the 21 (or so?) days prior to your test, to what extent do you think the 5.3% reflects some potential impact of your NAM+R supplementation?

 

What accuracy does your Walgreen test claim?

[able]

“Nonetheless, our results indicate that NR is more effective than NAM for reversing mNKO phenotypes (Figure S5).“

If the effect is all due to NAM, why NR is more effective at reversing muscles aging?

It could be that NR passes through the system in a time scale much smaller than measurement. The short time elevation of NAD+ helped to reverse muscle aging even though NAD+ content was not elevated in the long run.

The high NAM content could be due to NAD+ degradation after first pass of NR and NAMPT KO.

No matter what the path it took, the paper concludes NR is more effective at reversing muscle aging than NAM. That is all you need to know as a consumer. The end result count. It doesn’t matter if scientists could not explain fully why because of their limited research design.

 

I never said the effect is all due to NAM.

 

When I posted about this earlier, I did point out the researchers found NR was more effective than NAM.

 

I did point out that some NR was found in the blood.

 

But it does matter to me that NR cost about 40 times as much as NAM or NA.  

 

You may think we should just blindly spend as much as we can buying NR to support your stock prices, but I prefer to try and understand the mechanism as best as possible to get the most bang for my bucks.  

 

Whether that is all NR, or combined with NMN, NAM, Ribose, NA, etc. depends on how I interpret the research.  I certainly don't trust the conclusions from Trammel paper.

Edited by able, 24 October 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[MikeDC]

This data point can only be taken as a reference for the next test since your last test was from last year.

[Turnbuckle]

 

So even if the majority of NR is broken down to NAM in intestines or liver, if some makes its way to bloodstream and even a little to muscle or other tissue, it can still be effective (Figure 6f).

 

I'm curious if there is anything we can do to increase the amount of NR that makes it out of the liver, such as combining with other substances.

 

 

Fig. 6f doesn't indicate anything about effectiveness, only that some NR made it to the liver without breakdown, even if virtually none of it made it to muscle cells. And what difference does it make if both NAM and NR are converted into NMN and then to NAD+? It all ends up in the same place, so rather than adding yet another supplement to get NR into cells without breakdown (if that were even possible), just supply N+R to begin with.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 October 2017 - 06:48 PM.