2287 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

OK. So if LLLT is good for stem cell activation— and fusion? Which is what I think you’re saying? Does it then follow that LLLT sessions might best be avoided on fission days, and encouraged on fusion days?
 

 

Not necessarily. I said it wouldn't be good for fission/mitophagy as the increased ATP would reduce the sensitivity of mito QC. But if you want to stimulate asymmetric stem cell division for healing, that goes better with fission.

 

See Stem cell self-renewal with C60.

[lost69]

good news, adding apigenin at 3rd round of fission lowered BP for the first time and it is staying low at around 115/80 until today

this protocol is definitely very very potent and hope to lower 80 to around 70 definitely by doing fission once a week

 

my baseline BP was 118-120/85-90 by using quercetin without it would be 125-130/90-95, now i m not using quercetin to see clear effect of fission on BP

 

3dr round of mito quality this time adding apigenin 100mg (2g nicotinamide+5g ribose, 100mg apigenin, 1g ampk, 1g tmg,4g lysine, no fisetin this time) because i had no effects on strength during heavy swimming previous time and only feeling a little down later same day and following day.

 

this time i had even less effect on strength, only very little muscle soreness and a little broken at wake up the following day but i finially had a very good and needed effect on BP while previous time BP lowered very little and then got back to baseline.also hrv results were not manteined

 

so baseline BP 118-120/85-90 pulse always ok 56-60 hrv 46-47 rmssd 21-25 morning readiness around 9 reaction time 192-200ms

fission day  BP 101/73 pulse 60 hrv 53 rmssd 31.77 morning readiness 4 reaction time 240ms

 

tomorrow i can use stearic acid for fusion instead of broccoli and hopefully get durability on BP

 

Edited by lost69, 01 May 2018 - 09:47 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

@lost69

 

The timing of these things is an important variable. For me, N+R (2g/2g) taken on an empty stomach appears to reach a maximum effect at around 3 hours, as cells have to do chemistry with it before it becomes NAD+. Apigenin works faster and then tapers off. I've found that taking it 2 hours after N+R and then exercise at 3 hours works best. (Presumably you are using this protocol for more than just lowering your BP.)

[lost69]

thank you for suggesting correct protocol, i was still using atomic protocol timing and a little messed up last time because of messy swimming pool hrs, anyway this week i ll try to follow everything and follow also fusion/stemcells new protocol because i only did 2-3 days of fusion protocol the other times.

 

previous time:

t0 N+R

20min later 1g tmg, 4g lysine, ampk 1g, apigenin 100mg all together

10-15min later swimming

 

tomorrow i ll try 1 day fission this way:

t0 N+R

t0+30min tmg, lysine,ampk

t0+2hrs apigenin

t0+3hrs swimming

 

3 days fo fusion, 1-2 day of c60/stemcells protocol, 1 day off

 

is this timing ok?

 

definitely using for more than that.i have feed back also on skin: wrinkles between eyes over the nose (i dont know the name in english) are almost invisible but using my father's glasses i can see them and 24-48hrs after they are even smaller and skin is plumped up like right after dermaroll inflammation and this is very good too.

 

energy levels are already over the top baseline so difficult to see changes there

 

eye sight is improving very much lately but i also use skq1 so i can t say who s working on it

 

by the way at present the more c60 (20mg daily) i take the younger i look and the less oxigen consumption/more levels swimming but according to you i ll pay this later on with less effects

 

thank you

 

@lost69

 

The timing of these things is an important variable. For me, N+R (2g/2g) taken on an empty stomach appears to reach a maximum effect at around 3 hours, as cells have to do chemistry with it before it becomes NAD+. Apigenin works faster and then tapers off. I've found that taking it 2 hours after N+R and then exercise at 3 hours works best. (Presumably you are using this protocol for more than just lowering your BP.)

 

Edited by lost69, 01 May 2018 - 12:37 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

@lost69

 

I would ignore the atomic protocol, which was anomalous. I experienced dramatic effects the first time I used it, but never again. And as no one here has noted anything of the kind (unless you are the exception), lysine and TMG could be eliminated. Otherwise, your revised fission protocol seems fine, and TMG/lysine will not likely hurt it. It might be best to leave them in at least once more, and then you can see the difference of just changing the timing.

 

As for your C60 use, I will be posting a new (and simplified) symmetric/asymmetric stem cell proliferation protocol, maybe in a week or two.

[lost69]

@lost69

 

I would ignore the atomic protocol, which was anomalous. I experienced dramatic effects the first time I used it, but never again. And as no one here has noted anything of the kind (unless you are the exception), lysine and TMG could be eliminated. Otherwise, your revised fission protocol seems fine, and TMG/lysine will not likely hurt it. It might be best to leave them in at least once more, and then you can see the difference of just changing the timing.

 

As for your C60 use, I will be posting a new (and simplified) symmetric/asymmetric stem cell proliferation protocol, maybe in a week or two.

 

i did the protocol with right timing, only diffrence i added fisentin because it was finished previous time,

 

i felt no difference on swimming power at all, no muscle pains at all, just like any other day.slept very well and woke up super energetic even though i was still on fission.previous round had some pains and felt a little broken at wake up

i could feel i did fission only because i felt a weaker immune system, no infections outbreak but a red spot visible on my nose which is a subcutaneous infection i get sometimes, almost liquid stools but not diarrhea or any gut issue, very very mild throat pain controlled by herbal sweets

 

i noticed this from fusion days already on previous protocol and it is sustained now:

i got rid of severe night sweats on hair on neck, neck and shoulders only.i had this since 1 year.i guess it is atrial fibbrilation because my father had same problem or maybe breathing problems while sleeping.i could not sleep well, i got waken up by the wet shirt/pillow and i had to change at least 1 time per night

 

vision is improving too much so it is not sqk1 drops or its the combo with protocol.i don t take the drops on fission day and  i resume on fusion days

 

fusion

i m on 3rd day of fusion and energy is good but i have more energy when i take 20mg c60 and nad daily, anyway energy will probably build up with time on this protocol.

for fusion i use both broccomax and 9g stearic acid, 4.8mg c60

 

HRV and rmssd is increasing on fusion days, systolic stays low while diastolic goes back up a little

 

BP and HRV

fission day 115/77 pulse 65 HRV 48 moraning readiness 7 rmssd 22.11 reaction time 187ms

fusion day 117/79 pulse 53 HRV 53 moraning readiness 8 rmssd 31.27
fusion day 121/87 pulse 66 HRV 44 moraning readiness 5 rmssd 17.43 reaction time 189ms

fusion day 116/85 pulse 62 HRV 54 moraning readiness 7 rmssd 34.10 reaction time 214ms

Edited by lost69, 05 May 2018 - 10:08 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

@lost69

 

It's possible that you have eliminated your defective mitochondria to such a degree that fission is doing little for you. A year ago I got dramatic effects from fission, but today I might have trouble noticing if I didn't know. I can tell at the gym that I can't lift as many weights and I tend to stay there longer, but otherwise I'd be hard put to say. At this point, the increase of ATP from N+R will possibly compensate for the otherwise lesser ATP output due to fission.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 May 2018 - 12:21 PM.

[MikeDC]

They could be two ships passing in the night. Sulforaphane has a short half-life while NR shows a long delay before getting into the system.

The perception that there is a long delay for NR to get into the system is not entirely correct. The ling LIU paper showed NAD+ started to increase at 15 minutes and continue to increase up to 135 min for both NR and NMN. We need a tracer study that follows NAD+ for more than 6 hours.

[lost69]

thanks for the feedback, i ll try another fission day this week (without tmg/lysine) and see if it has no effects and so mybe do it once a month

 

by the way i tried 1g of L theronin yesterday right before bedtime while still on fusion supplements and c60.today i'm totally broken, pains everywhere/low energy, mild throatache.strange effect or maybe just coincidence

 

@lost69

 

It's possible that you have eliminated your defective mitochondria to such a degree that fission is doing little for you. A year ago I got dramatic effects from fission, but today I might have trouble noticing if I didn't know. I can tell at the gym that I can't lift as many weights and I tend to stay there longer, but otherwise I'd be hard put to say. At this point, the increase of ATP from N+R will possibly compensate for the otherwise lesser ATP output due to fission.

 

Edited by lost69, 06 May 2018 - 12:39 PM.

[lost69]

recovered from all pains/low energy by about 7mg c60+hydrogen water, recovery effect was pretty fast

[Nate-2004]

Turnbuckle do you think the Apigenin induces fission by inhibiting CD38 resulting in an increase in NAD+ or is it some other way? 

 

Michael had some discouraging comments about Apigenin in this thread.

[lost69]

i tried for the last time fission to be sure all bad mitos are gone and again no effect at all on power/strength, good jump on BP more than 10points lower.this time i had a very hard time falling to sleep, i could only feel some tireness at 4-5am and slept about 7hrs instead of 8-9hrs as usual.

 

shall i follow with fusion protocol for 1-2 days or directly to stemcell renewal protocol (which is the most potent thing with immediate results i ever tried)

 

HRV numbers, increased hrv of 1-2 points 53, little increased rmmsd to 30.34, lowered reaction time to 202ms (usally around 190ms)

 

thanks for anyfeedback

Edited by lost69, 19 May 2018 - 10:00 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

shall i follow with fusion protocol for 1-2 days or directly to stemcell renewal protocol (which is the most potent thing with immediate results i ever tried)

 

 

 

 

No need. Go to the stem cell protocol. When you're ready, let us know on that thread what your benefits were.

[whileitravel]

Error

Edited by whileitravel, 22 May 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[sumguy90]

I've done a few variations of this protocol a handful of times. I'm 28 and have CFS(possibly West Nile). I've had significant gains in energy.

500mg N+R caused intolerable fatigue and depression both times I tried it, and both times I picked up a bad cold within days.

200mg N+R was tolerable, I've tried overnight followed by 4 capsules of broccomax the next day, overnight followed by a heaping tablespoon of stearic acid in my coffee, and two nights in a row followed by stearic acid.

100 mg N+R overnight with 4 capsules broccomax in the morning feels great and I've done that for several days in a row several times.

During all of these in the fission phase I've taken 5mg pqq sublingually multiple times per day, maybe even as much as 10 times a day (I didn't keep count very well).

Now I've run out of pqq and won't get more for some time. Turnbuckle, do you think it'd be a good idea to continue alternating 100mg N+R and broccomax,maybe with longer fission phases, despite taking no pqq, or would you recommend holding off until I have pqq again?

[Turnbuckle]

I've done a few variations of this protocol a handful of times. I'm 28 and have CFS(possibly West Nile). I've had significant gains in energy.

500mg N+R caused intolerable fatigue and depression both times I tried it, and both times I picked up a bad cold within days.

200mg N+R was tolerable, I've tried overnight followed by 4 capsules of broccomax the next day, overnight followed by a heaping tablespoon of stearic acid in my coffee, and two nights in a row followed by stearic acid.

100 mg N+R overnight with 4 capsules broccomax in the morning feels great and I've done that for several days in a row several times.

During all of these in the fission phase I've taken 5mg pqq sublingually multiple times per day, maybe even as much as 10 times a day (I didn't keep count very well).

Now I've run out of pqq and won't get more for some time. Turnbuckle, do you think it'd be a good idea to continue alternating 100mg N+R and broccomax,maybe with longer fission phases, despite taking no pqq, or would you recommend holding off until I have pqq again?

 

 

That's not the protocol. It's alternating fission/mitophagy with fusion/biogenesis. PQQ thus goes with stearic acid and not with N+R.

[sumguy90]

That's not the protocol. It's alternating fission/mitophagy with fusion/biogenesis. PQQ thus goes with stearic acid and not with N+R.

I'm sorry I misspoke. I've been taking pqq in the fusion phase, after taking broccomax or stearic acid, typically beginning about 12 hours after my last dose of N+R.

For about a week for instance my daily routine looked like
9 or 10pm: 600 mg magnesium glycinate, 15 mg zinc monomethionine (+1mg copper gluconate), 100mg nicotinamide, >100mg d-ribose

between 10a and noon: 4 capsules broccomax, 2 or 3 grams vitamin c, 5 mg pqq sublingual, and my usual daily supplements, including carnitine, coq10, omega 3, and creatine.

I'd then take pqq sublingualy throughout the day. I finished that week with 200mg N+R Friday night, stearic acid in my coffee Saturday morning, and pqq and vitamin C throughout that weekend, then took a break from the protocol for a while.

[Turnbuckle]

I'm sorry I misspoke. I've been taking pqq in the fusion phase, after taking broccomax or stearic acid, typically beginning about 12 hours after my last dose of N+R.

For about a week for instance my daily routine looked like
9 or 10pm: 600 mg magnesium glycinate, 15 mg zinc monomethionine (+1mg copper gluconate), 100mg nicotinamide, >100mg d-ribose

between 10a and noon: 4 capsules broccomax, 2 or 3 grams vitamin c, 5 mg pqq sublingual, and my usual daily supplements, including carnitine, coq10, omega 3, and creatine.

I'd then take pqq sublingualy throughout the day. I finished that week with 200mg N+R Friday night, stearic acid in my coffee Saturday morning, and pqq and vitamin C throughout that weekend, then took a break from the protocol for a while.

 

 

I doubt if you are actually getting rid of any mitochondria with only 100 mg nicotinamide.

[sumguy90]

I doubt if you are actually getting rid of any mitochondria with only 100 mg nicotinamide.

Thank you for your view. Can you see any significant downside to alternating 100-200mg N+R with 60-180mg sulforaphane approximately 12 hours apart, without pqq?

Since I've felt better on the protocol, even with low doses, and since both NR and sulforaphane have good reputations in the longevity and biohacking communities I'm inclined to try.

I have a biostrap and bp monitor and haven't seen anything worrying in any of my vitals. N+R consistently raises my HRV by 10-30 rmssd, sulforaphane and stearic both lower it by around 30-40. My bp on fusion is typically around 115/60 and on N+R around 130/70


On a seperate note, have you seen this paper reviewing ampk activators? If I'm understanding it correctly it seems to claim that the vast majority of ampk activators function by interfering with some stage of the electron transport chain, thus reducing atp and thereby raising the amp/atp and adp/atp ratios which activate ampk. It lists only 3 compounds which activate ampk directly as pro-drugs without reducing atp, they are AICAR, C13, and cordycepin. If that's the case, wouldn't cordyceps mushroom or extract be the best OTC ampk activator to use?

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4724661/

Edited by sumguy90, 30 May 2018 - 06:22 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Thank you for your view. Can you see any significant downside to alternating 100-200mg N+R with 60-180mg sulforaphane approximately 12 hours apart, without pqq?

Since I've felt better on the protocol, even with low doses, and since both NR and sulforaphane have good reputations in the longevity and biohacking communities I'm inclined to try.

I have a biostrap and bp monitor and haven't seen anything worrying in any of my vitals. N+R consistently raises my HRV by 10-30 rmssd, sulforaphane and stearic both lower it by around 30-40. My bp on fusion is typically around 115/60 and on N+R around 130/70


On a seperate note, have you seen this paper reviewing ampk activators? If I'm understanding it correctly it seems to claim that the vast majority of ampk activators function by interfering with some stage of the electron transport chain, thus reducing atp and thereby raising the amp/atp and adp/atp ratios which activate ampk. It lists only 3 compounds which activate ampk directly as pro-drugs without reducing atp, they are AICAR, C13, and cordycepin. If that's the case, wouldn't cordyceps mushroom or extract be the best OTC ampk activator to use?

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4724661/

 

 

I can't comment on the validity of what you are doing as it departs too much from what I proposed. 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@sumguy90, you haven't provided readers of your post #949 with your baseline BP (blood pressure average-ish, or typical reading). So, the context for your reported values in fusion and N+R states is missing.

 

If it's true (?) that your N+R BP is greater than your typical (non-fusion, non N+R) BP then you are an exception in that people on this thread report a lowering of BP after ingesting N+R (edit--although at much higher doses than you ingest).

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 30 May 2018 - 11:29 PM.

[Andey]

I ve only recently got all ingredients for the correct form of protocol and it works way better with the addition of Apigenin and Stearic acid.

Hard to measure benefits but I definitely feel fission and fusion more profoundly now.

 

Its hard to limit dietary stearic acid as I eat a ketogenic diet with a lot of meat, so I condense fission in 1.5 days when I eat mostly fish and olive oil and take N+R+apigenin+Ampk every 12h. Not often though, once in 2 weeks.

[PAMPAGUY]

Turnbuckle,

 

Have you considered adding hydrogen sulfide h2s to the protocol?  Dr. Sinclair said the the addition of h2s to NMN supplementation greatly increase the effectiveness NAD+ production in his latest trial.

 

If so NAC and taurine significantly increased h2s when taken as supplements.   https://sci-hub.tw/h...iol.2018.01.011

[BieraK]

What other options are besides stearic acid for fusion (and for the high energy protocol because it is an important part of it) for Apoe4 carriers?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle,

 

Have you considered adding hydrogen sulfide h2s to the protocol?  Dr. Sinclair said the the addition of h2s to NMN supplementation greatly increase the effectiveness NAD+ production in his latest trial.

 

If so NAC and taurine significantly increased h2s when taken as supplements.   https://sci-hub.tw/h...iol.2018.01.011

 

 

See post #113 of the Stem Cell Protocol--

 

NAC — 600 mg (Enhances glutathione, works with taurine to produce H2S — see note 2)

 

2. H2S is important to stem cell differentiation, while taurine + NAC creates H2S and also promote cardiovascular health.

Boosting endogenous production of vasoprotective hydrogen sulfide via supplementation with taurine and N-acetylcysteine: a novel way to promote cardiovascular health

Hydrogen Sulfide Maintains Mesenchymal Stem Cell Function and Bone Homeostasis…

 

 

 

[Rocket]

Questions from me...

What would happen if I took fission and fusion supplements at the same time?
How long after a fission cycle do you begin a fusion cycle? And viceversa.
Any issues with running liposomal resveratrol and taurine throughout fusion and fusion?

[Turnbuckle]

Questions from me...

What would happen if I took fission and fusion supplements at the same time?
How long after a fission cycle do you begin a fusion cycle? And viceversa.
Any issues with running liposomal resveratrol and taurine throughout fusion and fusion?

 

If you took them at the same time the stronger would win out but the overall effect would be diminished. I like to wait 24 hours, which is two half lives for both stearic acid and apigenin. Resveratrol will likely go better with fission and taurine with fusion.

[Rocket]

How about megadosing apigenin and stearic acid? I am a big believer in "go big or go home" and if you're going to do something then DO IT. Are you aware of maximum dosages that are safe or advisable?

 

[displayname]

Sorry if this has already been asked/answered, but what are sources for SODIUM pyruvate (not calcium pyruvate) ?

[pone11]

Deleted....

Edited by pone11, 12 June 2018 - 07:44 PM.