2284 replies to this topic

[Old grandpa]

I'm lazy and I haven't learned how to link to other topics on this site, but I'm having some unusual effects I list on this thread--- Dark chocolate magic, in the supplement section. It might be worth looking at.

[DJSwarm]

 

I read previously in the thread that if one eat meat heavy meals say 0.5kg red meat it provides 5g stearic acid which could interfere with this protocol by boosting fusion when not intended. Assuming one doesn't want to change the composition of the meals how should one adjust the eating pattern:

 

If one follows this protocol:

Monday evening: M-Fission stack.

Tuesday evening: M-Fusion stack

Wednesday evening: M-Fission stack.

etc

 

Questions:

1. When people talk about the fission day is that Tuesday in this scheme?

2. To avoid messing with the fission stack would it be better to skip Monday dinner or Tuesday breakfast?

3. Any minimum time to take between Monday dinner and the evening M-Fission stack?

4. would it be advisable to eat a early dinner or maybe skip it on Monday/Wednesday

5. if one does OneMealADay - Monday:breakfast Tuesday:dinner Wednesday:breakfast would be the ideal protocol would it not?

6. Any other ways to modify eating pattern to allow for the protocol to work?

 

 

Been wondering about this as well. I'll probably go vegetarian just to reduce the confounding factors while on the cycle. Also considering micro fasting around the dose. I.E., no food 3 hours minimum before bed, dose, no food 12 hours minimum over night. Creates a pro micro-autophagy environment (not apoptosis).

[DJSwarm]

The problem for us following a carnivore diet is that if it doesn't work we don't know whether it's because our mitochondria are optimized or because we eat so much stearic acid that the N+R combo does not kick us into Fission. 

 

For example, I followed the protocol doing the "push-ups to failure" bit and did not see the pattern at all. Control, Fusion and Fission days I did the same number of repetitions. And I don't believe that my mitochondria are already optimized.

 

Since I am doing Carnivore as an elimination diet it comes with a cost for me to substitute beef for something else to avoid nutritional Fusion. Nevertheless, I am planning on doing a chicken+fisk week and see if I can get in and out of Fission/Fusion. 

 

Will post if anything interesting happens.

 

Saludos,

 

S.

I'm no vegetarian by any stretch but will be going vegetarian to avoid the confounding factors you seem to be seeing. Also, low sugar and starch. 

[DJSwarm]

I doubt body temp would be a good indicator, as that is kept in close control, whereas curls to failure shows a big difference.

 

If some one wanted to check this, like say a woman who does temperature based NFP, it would be an interesting data point and it might good to know if it interferes with their tracking.

 

For guys, there are extra sensitive thermometers for tracking subtle changes in body temperature. You want to take the temperature the same time, first thing on waking, before you move around any.

[DJSwarm]

Since BP seems to unsurprisingly be an issue for many...

 

A slow and steady six-month training program designed to gradually build up endurance and mileage gave a group of novice runners, ages 21 to 69, an impressive boost to their heart health.

 

"What we found in this study is that we're able to reverse the processes of aging that occur in the [blood] vessels," says study author Dr. Anish Bhuva, a British Heart Foundation Cardiology Fellow at Barts Heart Centre in the United Kingdom.

 

Each of the 138 runners received a scan at the beginning and end of the training. Using these images, researchers documented reductions in aortic artery stiffness that were equivalent to a four-year reduction in vascular age. The findings are published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. [Just the training was needed apparently - running a marathon seems optional.]

 

Training for a First-Time Marathon Reverses Age-Related Aortic Stiffening

[Wookie]

I take methylated B vitamins and NAC for my liver, should I stop taking these during the protocol? Or just take them well beforehand? Or it doesnt matter at all or possibly even helpful?

 

Anyone's opinion is appreciated. Ty.

[Starjumper7]

A question about Apigenin,  while roaming Utube I saw one video which reported that apigenin in supplements degraes quickly and is therefore more or less useless.  Even if the supplements were manufactured right before sale, it takes about three weeks for a courier service to deliver items to me in the boonies of southern Ecuador.

 

What I did was dehydrate a bunch of parsley and take a big table spoon of the powder for the fission aspect of the protocol, but I don't know if that's enough.

 

So the questions:  Does apigenin really degrade quickly in supplement form? How quickly?  How much dried parsley would be a good replacement for the required dose?  Sulforaphane, which also degrades quickly in supplements or from cooking, can be activated by taking it with mustard, which has the proper enzyme.  Is there somthing like this that can be done for apigenin supplements?  Is there some other material, which does not degrade, which can be used for fission instead of apigenin?

[Turnbuckle]

Is there some other material, which does not degrade, which can be used for fission instead of apigenin?

 

1-2 grams of niacinamide, with or without a like amount of ribose.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 February 2022 - 12:51 PM.

[Starjumper7]

1-2 grams of niacinamide, with or without a like amount of ribose.

 

OK, I already am using the 2 grams of nicotinamide + 2 grams of ribose, as per the protocol (unless you meant and additional one or two grams).  So I guess the apigenin is superfluous in a way.  I do get some with the dehydrated parsley powder.  I'm curious to know how fast the apigenin really does degrade.

 

Thanks

Edited by Starjumper7, 06 February 2022 - 08:51 PM.

[hsibai]

According to below referenced study, the three factors affecting degradation of Apigenin most are time, heat and presence of Fe/Cu ions. I think the best we can do is to focus on eliminating these metallic ions from the diet during administration of Apigenin. As for time and heat, there isn’t much we can do about them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...#__ffn_sectitle

[DJSwarm]

If some one wanted to check this, like say a woman who does temperature based NFP, it would be an interesting data point and it might good to know if it interferes with their tracking.

 

For guys, there are extra sensitive thermometers for tracking subtle changes in body temperature. You want to take the temperature the same time, first thing on waking, before you move around any.

 

Somebody wanted a NFP reference: https://www.naturalc...6gaAn2JEALw_wcB

 

At the bottom is a chart showing the variations in temp around ovulation. The partner I had at the time used it and we stayed childless for 11 years doing it. But you need to be a bit OCD and follow the rules to make it work.

[foobar]

Some notes:

 

I'm beginning to suspect that the only requirement after fission/exercise is that the NAD+/NADH ratio be knocked down, and that can be done by taking large doses of Vitamin C--such as 8 grams of C over a couple of hours, which should reduce NAD+ to NADH. Eliminating the stearic acid with its 17 hour half life should make it possible to cycle this every day, if desired. I'm presently on my third consecutive day of N+R+exercise followed ten hours later by Vitamin C, and if I can do four days in a row without the toxic effect I saw in my early experiment with 4 days of pure fission (with no Vitamin C or stearic acid), then that would show that extra stearic acid is not necessary. After all, one gets it in a normal diet anyway, and some fusion will occur when the NAD+/NADH ratio returns to normal. 

 

Nicotinamide (aka, niacinamide) uses up methyl groups, thus supplementing with TMG may be helpful. I am presently using 500 mg TMG a day.

 

I'm taking N+R first thing in the morning and going to the gym 1-2 hours later. Taking it in the afternoon I've found makes it difficult to sleep through the night. 

 

Since I'm not doing fasting or calorie restriction, I can't speak to that from experience.

 

As for the L-lysine solution I mentioned above for use with dermarolling, I use a teaspoon of pure powder in 50 ml water. Don't add anything else to it and it should keep without microbial growth.

 

Someone asked about D-ribose, and yes, that's what I mean by "ribose."

 

Two grams of nicotinamide is a large dose, and I can't yet say if that much is really necessary. There must be a point where all the mitochondria are fissioned, and beyond that excess nicotinamide isn't helpful. I will be trying lower doses soon. 

 

"Nicotinamide (aka, niacinamide) uses up methyl groups". I wonder why this is no longer a concern and TMG is not part of the latest protocol. I do see you later update that you don't feel the effect of TMG any more. But if N uses up methyl groups, should we continue to use TMG to prevent methyl group depletion when going through this protocol?

[kurdishfella]

Look at why our cells run out of energy. It has to do with the mitochondria. Mitochondria are organelles found in most of the body's cells in which the biochemical processes of energy production and respiration happen. There are three key ingredients required involved in this ATP process pathway production within the mitochondria which are COQ10, carnitine and ribose. Carnitine shuttles the fatty acids into the mitochondrial membrane to burn for energy. Coq10 accelerates the rate of ATP synthesis. D ribose is a glucose used as the first energy source. Which are all independent from each other.

Edited by kurdishfella, 16 February 2022 - 05:58 AM.

[johnhemming]

 

"Nicotinamide (aka, niacinamide) uses up methyl groups". I wonder why this is no longer a concern and TMG is not part of the latest protocol. I do see you later update that you don't feel the effect of TMG any more. But if N uses up methyl groups, should we continue to use TMG to prevent methyl group depletion when going through this protocol?

 

 

I would generally be a supporter of continuing to take TMG if using a NAD booster. 

[stephen_b]

I would generally be a supporter of continuing to take TMG if using a NAD booster. 

 

I've found TMG really helpful and something I was missing out on. Without it, my running performance was taking a hit. I'm planning on revisiting the protocol while taking TMG.

 

I was thinking along the lines of 250-500 mg /day.

[johnhemming]

I think the experience on methyl donors is that you have some reserves, but when you run out you need something like TMG.  I haven't noticed anything myself, however.

[Phoebus]

Look at why our cells run out of energy. It has to do with the mitochondria. Mitochondria are organelles found in most of the body's cells in which the biochemical processes of energy production and respiration happen. There are three key ingredients required involved in this ATP process pathway production within the mitochondria which are COQ10, carnitine and ribose. Carnitine shuttles the fatty acids into the mitochondrial membrane to burn for energy. Coq10 accelerates the rate of ATP synthesis. D ribose is a glucose used as the first energy source. Which are all independent from each other.

 

what about stearic acid which is the fatty acid the mito loves the most? 

 

https://hero.epa.gov...ence_id/4870143

 

https://www.scienced...50728101220.htm

Edited by Phoebus, 18 February 2022 - 04:04 AM.

[kurdishfella]

what about stearic acid which is the fatty acid the mito loves the most? 

 

https://hero.epa.gov...ence_id/4870143

 

https://www.scienced...50728101220.htm

I think it is called lipid metabolism and in order for stearic acid and other fatty acids to be used to energy it needs enzymes like COQ10 for the chemical reaction to happen. Short chain fatty acids are the best based on my research for energy like MCT (medium-chain triglyceride). Found in coconut oil or can be bought as pure MCT oil. Tyrosine is also converted to COQ10 and has other effects and is better absorbed so I suggest that over COQ10.

Edited by kurdishfella, 18 February 2022 - 05:43 AM.

[Phoebus]

I think it is called lipid metabolism and in order for stearic acid and other fatty acids to be used to energy it needs enzymes like COQ10 for the chemical reaction to happen. Short chain fatty acids are the best based on my research for energy like MCT (medium-chain triglyceride). Found in coconut oil or can be bought as pure MCT oil. Tyrosine is also converted to COQ10 and has other effects and is better absorbed so I suggest that over COQ10.

 

If you read the study I posted you will see that the mito use long chain FA not short chain and that they  prefer the long chain stearic acid over palmitic acid. Its unclear to me if the mito  burn or use short/medium chain FAs 

 

Google "Dietary stearic acid regulates mitochondria in vivo in humans" for the full study as the link does not work on this site for whatever reason. 

Edited by Phoebus, 18 February 2022 - 06:11 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

The purpose of this protocol is to remove defective and methylated mitochondria in a cyclic manner This is achieved by forcing lower functioning mtDNA to replicate during fission, as they will then more likely run out of enzymes and see their membrane potential plunge to zero, thereby being marked for recycling. If you add in supplements to improve their functioning during fission, then you are missing the point of the process, and may reduce the effectiveness of it.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 February 2022 - 10:44 PM.

[Phoebus]

Right, so given stearic acid promotes fusion you would not want to take it during the fission phase 

[Female Scientist]

Question regarding Turnbuckle's much simplified, updated Mito protocol, involving Mito 1 (fission day) and Mito 2 (fusion day). I am a chronic migraine sufferer. I take daily rhodiola, luteolin, and other migraine-prevention blends that are effective in helping me prevent migraine. However, these are probably mostly Fusion-promoters. I want to both do a Fission stack early in the morning, AND still take my migraine-prevention stack, hopefully a few hours later, to avoid debilitating migraine. But I don't want to negate the Fission stack by doing this. Turnbuckle says this recent Mito protocol involves "all fast-acting" supplements on Day 1/Fission (NAM, R, AKG, and PQQ). Can I take all these "fast-acting" Fission-promoters in the early morning, so that hopefully the Fission can happen, and then wait a few hours to take my Fusion-promoting, migraine-prevention stack, later in the afternoon? Is this enough time to let the "fast acting" Fission stack do its work in the early part of the day?

[Turnbuckle]

Question regarding Turnbuckle's much simplified, updated Mito protocol, involving Mito 1 (fission day) and Mito 2 (fusion day). I am a chronic migraine sufferer. I take daily rhodiola, luteolin, and other migraine-prevention blends that are effective in helping me prevent migraine. However, these are probably mostly Fusion-promoters. I want to both do a Fission stack early in the morning, AND still take my migraine-prevention stack, hopefully a few hours later, to avoid debilitating migraine. But I don't want to negate the Fission stack by doing this. Turnbuckle says this recent Mito protocol involves "all fast-acting" supplements on Day 1/Fission (NAM, R, AKG, and PQQ). Can I take all these "fast-acting" Fission-promoters in the early morning, so that hopefully the Fission can happen, and then wait a few hours to take my Fusion-promoting, migraine-prevention stack, later in the afternoon? Is this enough time to let the "fast acting" Fission stack do its work in the early part of the day?

 

 

Yes, I expect so. And if you do the bicep curls, you will see if it is working.

[Female Scientist]

Thanks, Turnbuckle. I will begin the process, and track via dumbell. 

 

 

Yes, I expect so. And if you do the bicep curls, you will see if it is working.

 

[Stanfoo]

I take daily rhodiola, luteolin, and other migraine-prevention blends that are effective in helping me prevent migraine.

 

Do you mind sharing your entire stack you're using for migraines? Interested!

[Moe11]

Hey i would love to bring up this paper for discussion. '

NR Does Not Improve Mitochondrial Function or NAD+ Content in Human Skeletal Muscle After Long-Term Administration

 

( https://www.nmn.com/...skeletal-muscle ).



And another thing is that i have a good source for NMN and it is not that expensive, what is the average opinion about to do the protocol with NMN ? 



 

Edited by Moe11, 01 April 2022 - 08:25 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Hey i would love to bring up this paper for discussion. '

NR Does Not Improve Mitochondrial Function or NAD+ Content in Human Skeletal Muscle After Long-Term Administration

 

( https://www.nmn.com/...skeletal-muscle ).



And another thing is that i have a good source for NMN and it is not that expensive, what is the average opinion about to do the protocol with NMN ? 



 

 

 

That work was noted on another thread here some three years ago. The poor results of long term NR use suggests that it has interfered with fission/fusion cycles of mito quality control (which involves PINK1/Parkin labeling).  The protocol of this thread involves cycling fission with fusion while promoting biogenesis to eliminate mutations and epimutations of mtDNA. PINK1/Parkin is hijacked to do a job it wasn't capable of doing naturally, namely, removing methylated (epigenetically mutated) mtDNA. This protocol definitely increases muscle output, as can be seen in the attached plot in this post.

[Helios]

That work was noted on another thread here some three years ago. The poor results of long term NR use suggests that it has interfered with fission/fusion cycles of mito quality control (which involves PINK1/Parkin labeling).  The protocol of this thread involves cycling fission with fusion while promoting biogenesis to eliminate mutations and epimutations of mtDNA. PINK1/Parkin is hijacked to do a job it wasn't capable of doing naturally, namely, removing methylated (epigenetically mutated) mtDNA. This protocol definitely increases muscle output, as can be seen in the attached plot in this post.

 

Assuming someone has completed this protocol and removed their defective mitochondria. How should one treat supplementing NR? Cycle it every other day? week? or something else?

[Turnbuckle]

Assuming someone has completed this protocol and removed their defective mitochondria. How should one treat supplementing NR? Cycle it every other day? week? or something else?

 

 

If you feel you must do something, cycling fission with fusion is the best approach. But keep in mind that there is some stickiness to mito morphology. It seems to get stuck in one or the other morphology for days even with no fresh promoters, unless you bump it into the other direction. As for NR, there are several threads here dedicated to it, but it appears to be an expensive way of taking nicotinamide + ribose, as it has to be broken down before absorption. 

[Helios]

If you feel you must do something, cycling fission with fusion is the best approach. But keep in mind that there is some stickiness to mito morphology. It seems to get stuck in one or the other morphology for days even with no fresh promoters, unless you bump it into the other direction. As for NR, there are several threads here dedicated to it, but it appears to be an expensive way of taking nicotinamide + ribose, as it has to be broken down before absorption. 

Thanks for the quick respons. Maybe i should reconsider taking NR and NMN... they are quite expensive...

after you cleaned all your mitochondria did you stop with all of these type of supplements?