2260 replies to this topic

[Advocatus Diaboli]

I sent the following request to toniiq:

 

"Could you supply more information about the certificate of analysis for PQQ40 found on you website? Typically a CoA will contain:

 

 "Certificates should be dated and signed by authorized personnel of the quality unit(s) and should show the name, address, and telephone number of the original manufacturer. Where the analysis has been carried out by a repacker or reprocessor, the certificate of analysis should show the name, address, and telephone number of the repacker/reprocessor and reference the name of the original manufacturer."

 

thanks,

AD

 

"Are there any official lab tested results beyond what I assume are non-verifiable claims on Reddit which offer any proof the products are inferior?"

 

From an earlier post I made:

 

"I'd suggest that anyone interested in Toniiq products should dig deeper. "

[EliotH]

Here is a list of seven brands ranked by ConsumerLab. The question is - can ConsumerLab be trusted? They don't appear to have any vested interest in any of the brands. HTN is listed but so is DoubleWood which some people on Reddit say is a scam company.

 

https://www.consumer...pqq-review/pqq/

 

I decided to check into Swanson brand (also in the above list) and ran into some high strangeness. On Amazon I see a single bottle of 20mg for 16.01 and a 2-pack of "Swanson Ultra" 20mg for 22.64. On Swanson's website the single bottle is on sale for 11.20 (50% off) and the only Ultra brand is 10mg for 17.89. These are all bottles of 30 caps. Also on Swanson they have HTN 40mg/120 caps for 60.19. I couldn't find HTN 40mg caps on Amazon but the 20mg/120 caps is only 19.39. The fact that HTN is on Swanson might be a good sign, I wonder if they check out the non-Swanson brands before listing them. The only other brand there is Life Extension which AFAIK is a reputable company. I think I will order some bottles of Swanson on sale at their website. I look forward to seeing what AD hears back from Toniiq.

[kurt9]

What about Life Extension Foundation's PQQ? That's what I am using.

[Kelvin]

Obviously trusting testing by Consumer Reports is a smarter move than believing  some anonymous commenter on Reddit who could, for all anyone knows, be a representative from a competitor.  If we trusted every isolated negative comment there would be no quality brands to choose from. 
 

Anecdotally, I (not to mention many commenters here) have found Swanson Vitamins a reliable supplier for many years.  For example, Swanson’s DGL (deglycyrrhizinated) licorice capsules have eliminated acid reflux every time I have used them for stomach acid discomfort. 
 

And I can tell it was created with a quality process that removed the great bulk of glycyrrhizic acid because their DGL (unlike many other DGL brands) doesn’t cause the same effects as regular licorice root extract or licorice candy which has that acid.  
 

I also have had good experiences with Double Wood and get my PQQ from them. 
 

The most high quality brands in my experience, and in no particular order, in America are -

 

Jarrow formulas

Double Wood 

Swanson

Pure encapsulations

Relentless Improvement

Thorne Research

Edited by Kelvin, 23 May 2024 - 08:46 PM.

[EliotH]

What about Life Extension Foundation's PQQ? That's what I am using.

 

ConsumerLab only shows LE 100mg CoQ10 with PQQ. I'm pretty sure LE PQQ is OK but it's a bit pricey. $24.00 for 30 20mg caps on Amazon. That would be 6 days of this protocol at 100mg per dose.

 

ConsumerLab seems to be legit. It is listed on Consumer Reports as one of the labs that checks supplements. You need to be a paying member to see the full reviews, like the companies to avoid. It is $60 per year. I think I might sign up. There are some other supplements I want to check.

[Kelvin]

And the quality of supplement and health discussions on Reddit is, frankly, subpar, especially compared to here. 
 

Reddit is maybe 2 or 3 notches higher in that regard than a Twitter thread. 

Edited by Kelvin, 23 May 2024 - 08:57 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

From post #2226:

 

"And the quality of supplement and health discussions on Reddit is, frankly, subpar, especially compared to here." 

 

Hey Kelvin, If you had written "I believe", "I think", "I suspect", "In my opinion", or something similar, that'd be cool. However, you have made what appears, to me, to be a very broad statement of "fact". So, please explain the method(s) by which you have seemingly (IMO) made your determination of fact--e.g. polling, or ?. Your stochastic asseveration about the "quality of supplement and health discussions", found on reddit, begs for evidence which substantiates your assertion ("subpar"). Got any?

 

From your post #2224:

 

"Anecdotally, I (not to mention many commenters here) have found Swanson Vitamins a reliable supplier for many years."

 

and

 

"The most high quality brands in my experience, and in no particular order, in America are -

 

Jarrow formulas

Double Wood 

Swanson

Pure encapsulations

Relentless Improvement

Thorne Research"

 

LOL. The irony of implicitly castigating certain reddit posts (I suspect that you haven't read all the relevant reddit posts), which appear, to me, to be anecdotal in nature, and then doing the exact same thing (or at least a highly-homologous "same thing") has apparently escaped you.

 

Toniiq hasn't responded to my email yet (see post #2221).

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 23 May 2024 - 11:38 PM.

[Repack Racing]

Advocatus Diaboli,

 

We do not engage in this type of behavior here amongst our fellow humans with common interests.  I thought this had been firmly established on this thread.  

 

From post #2226:

 

"And the quality of supplement and health discussions on Reddit is, frankly, subpar, especially compared to here." 

 

Hey Kelvin, If you had written "I believe", "I think", "I suspect", "In my opinion", or something similar, that'd be cool. However, you have made what appears, to me, to be a very broad statement of "fact". So, please explain the method(s) by which you have seemingly (IMO) made your determination of fact--e.g. polling, or ?. Your stochastic asseveration about the "quality of supplement and health discussions", found on reddit, begs for evidence which substantiates your assertion ("subpar"). Got any?

 

From your post #2224:

 

"Anecdotally, I (not to mention many commenters here) have found Swanson Vitamins a reliable supplier for many years."

 

and

 

"The most high quality brands in my experience, and in no particular order, in America are -

 

Jarrow formulas

Double Wood 

Swanson

Pure encapsulations

Relentless Improvement

Thorne Research"

 

LOL. The irony of implicitly castigating certain reddit posts (I suspect that you haven't read all the relevant reddit posts), which appear, to me, to be anecdotal in nature, and then doing the exact same thing (or at least a highly-homologous "same thing") has apparently escaped you.

 

Toniiq hasn't responded to my email yet (see post #2221).

 

[Empiricus]

100mg of PQQ is a lot.  If you're not accustomed to PQQ, you might want to ease into such a high-dose.  I experienced ringing-in-ears last time I went there:

 

https://www.longecit...a/#entry770959 

[PAMPAGUY]

Started protocol 4 days ago.  1 gm AAKG, 100 mg PQQ, for 3 days.  Today 2 gm AAKG, 2 gm Calcium Lactate, 150 mg PQQ. X 3 days.  See how this 78 yo., body handles it. 

[Empiricus]

LinkedIn deleted accounts sharing information about lifesaving treatments for COVID and the risks of FDA approved vaccines, lockdowns, etc.  It continues to censor health information and ban individuals who question medical orthodoxy.  I wonder how long Turnbuckle will be tolerated over there.

Edited by Empiricus, 24 May 2024 - 12:40 PM.

[EliotH]

 

100mg of PQQ is a lot.  If you're not accustomed to PQQ, you might want to ease into such a high-dose.  I experienced ringing-in-ears last time I went there:

 

https://www.longecit...a/#entry770959 

 

 

So it might be a good idea to take 1-2 grams of niacinamide and wait a day or two before starting this protocol. I might be taking a break while waiting for my Swanson PQQ to arrive, so I will try the niacinamide.

 

I am still not clear on the dosing schedule. At one point TB says it might only take one treatment, but it looks like on his graph he is taking it every day.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Here is the CoA for PQQ40 that toniiq sent me:

 PQQ40_240319_3rd Party Results.pdf   82.16KB   5 downloads

 

I haven't checked out creds of the testing lab, yet.

 

Re: post #2228

 

"We do not engage in this type of behavior here amongst our fellow humans with common interests.  I thought this had been firmly established on this thread."

  

"We"?

 

Was that a nosism, or are you presuming to speak for all who read and/or contribute to the thread? If the former, then you have succeeded in expressing your personal sentiment about some nebulous "type of behavior" (for which you have failed to offer either a definition or a specific example). If the latter, then I'm curious as to who it was that bestowed upon you the authority to speak for this thread's active and passive participants. My inclination is to think that any authority which you seem to be claiming, was the result of some sort of self-apotheosis. Correct me, if I'm wrong. 

 

Could the "type of behavior" you apparently sense be, by any chance, a behavior that might be categorized as one in which aspersion is cast, without examples of substantiation, and which relates to branding discussions of  "supplement and health", on reddit, as being "subpar"?

 

"I thought this had been firmly established on this thread.". 

 

Well, I guess it appears as if someone didn't get the message. Either that or perhaps there are elements of delusion and confabulation operative relating to the veracity of your claim. But then again, if "We do not engage in this type of behavior here." has been "firmly established" it would be very simple for you to list out pertinent post #'s in this thread which back up your "firmly established" contention. I'm of the opinion that you would be unable to formulate a rational nexus that supports your claim, simply because your claim has no merit. Am I right?

 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 24 May 2024 - 08:19 PM.

[Empiricus]

Started protocol 4 days ago.  1 gm AAKG, 100 mg PQQ, for 3 days.  Today 2 gm AAKG, 2 gm Calcium Lactate, 150 mg PQQ. X 3 days.  See how this 78 yo., body handles it. 

 

As far as I could tell Turnbuckle only mentions using 1-2g of lactate.  How do we know how much lactate is in 2g of calcium lactate?   

 

It would be good to gather insights as to what kind of results could be achieved using less than 100g of PQQ since it's expensive and may have side effects at such a high dose. 

[EliotH]

AD I appreciate you checking into the Toniiq PQQ. As far as the other stuff it was "firmly established" that off-topic discussions are what drove Turnbuckle away from Longecity. Please stop.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re: post #2235

 

"AD I appreciate you checking into the Toniiq PQQ."

 

You're welcome. I hope to get around to doing some background checks on the lab that did the PQQ40 analysis. One never knows if a lab might be offering a favorable CoA for a price.

 

"As far as the other stuff it was "firmly established" that off-topic discussions are what drove Turnbuckle away from Longecity."

 

If you care to read earlier posts in this thread, I believe you'll find that Turnbuckle would occasionally brush off salient questions by playing his "troll card" (e.g. see Learner056 posts that the moderators haven't removed (yet)).

 

"Please stop."

 

Should I message you with my intended posts in order to gain imprimatur before actually posting them?

 

[Repack Racing]

Talk about a "troll card"

 

Here is the CoA for PQQ40 that toniiq sent me:

PQQ40_240319_3rd Party Results.pdf

 

I haven't checked out creds of the testing lab, yet.

 

Re: post #2228

 

"We do not engage in this type of behavior here amongst our fellow humans with common interests.  I thought this had been firmly established on this thread."

  

"We"?

 

Was that a nosism, or are you presuming to speak for all who read and/or contribute to the thread? If the former, then you have succeeded in expressing your personal sentiment about some nebulous "type of behavior" (for which you have failed to offer either a definition or a specific example). If the latter, then I'm curious as to who it was that bestowed upon you the authority to speak for this thread's active and passive participants. My inclination is to think that any authority which you seem to be claiming, was the result of some sort of self-apotheosis. Correct me, if I'm wrong. 

 

Could the "type of behavior" you apparently sense be, by any chance, a behavior that might be categorized as one in which aspersion is cast, without examples of substantiation, and which relates to branding discussions of  "supplement and health", on reddit, as being "subpar"?

 

"I thought this had been firmly established on this thread.". 

 

Well, I guess it appears as if someone didn't get the message. Either that or perhaps there are elements of delusion and confabulation operative relating to the veracity of your claim. But then again, if "We do not engage in this type of behavior here." has been "firmly established" it would be very simple for you to list out pertinent post #'s in this thread which back up your "firmly established" contention. I'm of the opinion that you would be unable to formulate a rational nexus that supports your claim, simply because your claim has no merit. Am I right?

 

 

[boylan]

Started protocol 4 days ago.  1 gm AAKG, 100 mg PQQ, for 3 days.  Today 2 gm AAKG, 2 gm Calcium Lactate, 150 mg PQQ. X 3 days.  See how this 78 yo., body handles it. 

PAMPAGUY,

 

Any initial thoughts on trying this new protocol?

[Kelvin]

I have published a complete protocol, based on my experiences last year, on how to enhance creativity by lowering serotonin levels, as well as possible methods for curing or minimizing other side effects of excess serotonin. 

Part of the title appears to be cutoff because I ran out of space for it.

The complete title should be -

Enhancing Creativity for Artists Through Reducing Serotonin Levels - A Revolutionary Approach to Nootropics, Optimizing Imagination, and Improving Overall Mental Health

https://www.longecit...-to-nootropics/

Edited by Kelvin, 31 May 2024 - 01:08 AM.

[PAMPAGUY]

PAMPAGUY,

 

Any initial thoughts on trying this new protocol?

I took 100 mg. PQQ plus 1 gram of AAKK for 3 days, then 150 PQQ, 2 grams of AAKK and Calcium Lactate 2 grams.  It kicked my butt.  I felt very bad which is what one would except when your removing all those zombie cells.  It is hard work.  But the side effects were so bad I quit.  I am going to regroup and think about it, that is how bad the side effects.  I really wanted to get more ATP.  I never give up, but need to go slower on this one.

PAMPAGUY,

 

Any initial thoughts on trying this new protocol?

I took 100 mg. PQQ plus 1 gram of AAKK for 3 days, then 150 PQQ, 2 grams of AAKK and Calcium Lactate 2 grams.  It kicked my butt.  I felt very bad which is what one would except when your removing all those zombie cells.  It is hard work.  But the side effects were so bad I quit.  I am going to regroup and think about it, that is how bad the side effects.  I really wanted to get more ATP.  I never give up, but need to go slower on this one.

[EliotH]

Looking again at TB's graph he states that the green dots are non-treatment days. These are most of the dots. On my first couple of tries I felt good for a few hours then felt like crap, especially after a long walk. I decided to take a break during which I did fission/fusion. The first time I took 500 mg of niacinamide I felt good again. Then one night I did his D-ribose+niacin from a previous version of the protocol and felt good. The I went back to 100mg PQQ + AAKG and that went better. I think that it is not intended to be taken every day.

[Kelvin]

If you have significant mitochondrial damage the new protocol might be acting too quickly to destroy the damage.

 

 It might better to use the slower acting version of the protocol with nicotinamide first.  Then use the new protocol to eliminate any damaged mitochondria not removed from the older version. 

[Kelvin]

The mitochondria protocol minimizes hangover effects because the mitochondria assist breaking down acetaldehyde into less harmful compounds -
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6527027/

 

Acetaldehyde is metabolized mainly by aldehyde dehydrogenase 2 (ALDH2) in the mitochondria to form acetate and NADH.

Edited by Kelvin, 02 June 2024 - 11:16 PM.

[stephen_b]

Looking again at TB's graph he states that the green dots are non-treatment days. These are most of the dots. On my first couple of tries I felt good for a few hours then felt like crap, especially after a long walk. I decided to take a break during which I did fission/fusion. The first time I took 500 mg of niacinamide I felt good again. Then one night I did his D-ribose+niacin from a previous version of the protocol and felt good. The I went back to 100mg PQQ + AAKG and that went better. I think that it is not intended to be taken every day.

 

Agree. The way I understand the graph is that it is a diary in that it is a chronological progression.

 

blue circles: fission

orange circles: fusion

green circles: no treatment days

blue circles with black circles around them: fission with a deviation

black circles: not sure

red circles: lactate with or without AAKG

red circles with black circles around them: like red but with addition of lactate

[PAMPAGUY]

I have put Turnbuckle's new protocol on hold and have gone back to a very easy senescence treatment.  I take .25 mg Doxazosin twice a day.  250 mg Azithromycin, twice in 7 days, plus 500 mg Vitamin C.  Low dosing has no anti bacterial effect.  No worry about  antibiotic resistance.

This therapy is known as the DAV.  The Phd that put this together is running the number 1 lab in the UK.  DAV, is outlined in full 

at https://www.rapamyci...-vitamin-c/9619

[stephen_b]

Has DHM at 1g dosage been mentioned as a replacement for stearic acid/GMS?

[onz]

Is there a possible alternative to using NR/Niacinamide/NMN for the fission day?

 

I receive significant and unpredictable energy fluctuations when supplementing with NR/NMN (seperate from this protocol) so would prefer to avoid them. 

[FWP]

I am using grape seed extract.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4840337/

Would also like to hear people's thoughts on using grape seed extract for raising NAD+.

[stephen_b]

I've been doing something closer to the original protocol before mixing in Ca-lactate. I've taken 60-80 mg PQQ for fusion and fission, and am using DHM for fusion.

 

Results on 2nd cycle fusion day: baseline pushup count was 30, and on the 2nd cycle fusion day was 40 with clearly easier effort. My muscle tone feels great, but my running endurance on the other hand is lagging. 

[stephen_b]

From a baseline of 30 push-ups on a fission day and 40 on a fusion today, I've gotten up to 50 after increasing the amount of PQQ on fusion day on 10 June.

 

I have not seen much improvement in running. I'm not sure why. Maybe it takes longer, or maybe slow twitch muscles behave differently?

 

2024-06-11: a bit more than a gram of AAKG and Ca lactate plus 60 mg PQQ. 47 push ups this morning.

 

2024-06-10: last night 60mg PQQ, 1g AAKG, 1g leucine, and 800 mg DHM. 50 push-ups this morning.

 

2024-06-09: fusion day. 44 push-ups. Better run (3.5 miles at 10:35 min/mi).