26 replies to this topic

[covered123]

Hello everyone

I am male, 17 y/o from Slovenia. 

I am desperately looking for help because my doctor pretty much wont help. First the story: Around Christmas I was vaccinated against tetanus (sitting). In a few seconds I collapsed without falling, woke up on a bed with 3 doctors around me (they said I was out for 10sec but my friend insisted I was for at least a minute.. He also mentioned some kind of spasms, but that is normal I think?). After that I went home still very light headed and not feeling right. I started noticing some mental problems like very bad concentration, memory, and "feeling of not being there". I panicked in the evening and went to a hospital for a check. Doctor said that everything should be back to normal in around 3 days - it was still the same. After a week or two I went to my doctor (I also had a bad case of pneumonia) which was absent so another one took me in. When I just mentioned that this is going on ever since vaccination, she almost yelled on me that this is impossible. Pneumonia healed but mental problems did not. It was about 6 weeks of this problem when I went to see my doctor (not absent this time). I told her all of this and she said I need to take a full blood test. I went in the lab, almost fainted (probably from fear of needles I have now). Doctor called me in a few days - my blood is very healthy (mentioned that I may physically work too much?) and that I should wait some more that maybe my receptors got fried or something like that. Now it's 4 months and no improvement.

I am doing weight lifting for 15 months, eat as healthy as possible, take creatine, zinc and sometimes protein shake. I live in a healthy environment in the hills and have a medium stressful life. Ever since this happened I had some depression and anxiety, but I think its because of state that I'm in not the problem itself (don't have it anymore). I cant go out too much because talking is impaired to some degree (forgetting what I was talking about a minute ago, occasionally forgetting a word, etc.). It does get better sometimes, like in a wave. It feels like I have a barrier between my mind and reality and sometimes it thickens, like I'm waking up. I don't experience fatigue but I do feel the need to sleep more. It gets worse when I drink coffee (dizziness to a point of almost collapsing), am tired or sleepy, perhaps stressed. I noticed that I cant clear up my mind and think like I used to. This is seriously shaking up my social life and life on its own. I lost a chance with a girl because of all this and it needs to stop. If anyone can please help me I will be more thankful than you could possibly imagine.

[hdl_1]

I don't know if anyone has an idea of what could have gone wrong. The key here is to give time for the mind to regain homeostasis.
I suggest you manage the stress and depression with the usual adaptogens, bacopa monnieri, ashwagandha, l-theanine, lion's mane, etc.
Add ons could be NAC, some good magnesium, B6, B12, fish oil.
For boosts, look into the piracetams family (or noopept) if you feel you need to be more alert.
Give it time, especially since you are already experiencing waves of feeling better.
Hang in there, don't panic!, and give it time. Easy does it.


Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

[covered123]

So it is possible to recover from this? I need some kind of hope for this to get better.

[hdl_1]

Of course. People managed to recover from worst. i.e. years of drug abuse.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

[Finn]

(mentioned that I may physically work too much?) 

 

 

Dizziness, fainting and all the other issues you describe could be due to overtraining.

Edited by Finn, 26 April 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[covered123]

How long do these kinds of recoveries last? Forgot to mention, I have hugely increased ear wax production.

Overtraining? Nah, I lift about 4 times a week for 45 - 100 min 

[hdl_1]

At least one article correlates wax production with stress and toxins (pollutants)..in whales... though it may still apply.

http://www.nature.co...-toxins-1.13750

As for the duration, just give it time and take this day by day. Rushing it will just create anxiety and stress and will make the recovery harder.
NAC and MSM are good detox supplements if you choose to follow the theory of wax production response to toxins.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

[covered123]

Interesting.. Thanks for info

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

(mentioned that I may physically work too much?) 

 

 

Dizziness, fainting and all the other issues you describe could be due to overtraining.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Btw, for another possible cause - I had a nearly identical incident when I was 16 and had a sudden dizzy-spell, resulting in me passing out when getting up from a lying position - I was out for about the same time, and I had a little bit of spasms as well.

 

At the time, I wasn't getting enough food, because my step-father was being a jack-ass - and I have a naturally low blood-pressure, as well as potential problems with iron-absorption. (when I was hospitalized for a car-accident they noticed that my blood-value was kind of bad, even though I had hardly bled any, so they gave me iron-pills)

 

I'm guessing you probably consider your diet fairly good, but it's possible you have missed something and have a deficit of some kind, or an imbalance at the very least. (perhaps you get too much of something else)

 

 

How long do these kinds of recoveries last? Forgot to mention, I have hugely increased ear wax production.

Overtraining? Nah, I lift about 4 times a week for 45 - 100 min 

 

A few weeks, at the very least.

 

Please also take into mind that the concept of over-training is a highly individual, and dependent on many external factors as well.

 

If I were you, I'd cut down on weight-lifting (perhaps... 2 times per week instead of 4) and do some lighter cardio instead - cardio has been proven to be more neurogenic, and hence anti-depressive and anxiolytic, than resistance-training.

[covered123]

Sorry for not replying, I was on vacation..

Yeah, I stopped lifting about 10 days ago and started eating as normal as possible - no improvement. You said it takes a few weeks, but this is pretty much the same for around 20. It feels like i'm dreaming and don't remember much from vacation. When there is something hard to go through I just wait for it to end as I don't feel much emotionally anyway, feels like some kind of numbness, like someone else is doing the talk for me and my consciousness is just wrapped in a ball of cotton (the best I could describe).  I'm out of ideas of what could this be.

Edited by covered123, 04 May 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Sorry for not replying, I was on vacation..

Yeah, I stopped lifting about 10 days ago and started eating as normal as possible - no improvement. You said it takes a few weeks, but this is pretty much the same for around 20. It feels like i'm dreaming and don't remember much from vacation. When there is something hard to go through I just wait for it to end as I don't feel much emotionally anyway, feels like some kind of numbness, like someone else is doing the talk for me and my consciousness is just wrapped in a ball of cotton (the best I could describe).  I'm out of ideas of what could this be.

 

Well, what it sounds like from the outside is as if you've got Major Depression and Depersonalisation/Derealisation. So, take a look at the other threads regarding DP/DR, and talk to the people afflicted with it, and you may find that this is the illness currently embattling you.

 

If you come to the conclusion that you have DP/DR, then I suggest you look into the evidence regarding the NMDA-networks and Opioid networks regarding the potential mechanism as currently understood, regarding the root-cause of DP/DR.

 

And ultimately, I of course suggest you check out Kappa Opioid Antagonists, and their potential therapeutic effect on DP/DR.

 

That, and Lamotrigine.

[covered123]

It can't be a depression because I don't really feel any sadness or anything like that, but this depersonalization seems interesting though.. But I still don't think that's it.

Kappa Opioid Antagonists - is it possible for this to be altered since vacc/faint?

[Mind_Paralysis]

It can't be a depression because I don't really feel any sadness or anything like that, but this depersonalization seems interesting though.. But I still don't think that's it.

Kappa Opioid Antagonists - is it possible for this to be altered since vacc/faint?

 

Honestly, no, not to my knowledge.

 

Kappa-upregulation is a phenomenon seen in depressed people, as well as DP/DR people - but NOT in bipolar people, actually! They instead seem to have lowered kappa-activity, since kappa-agonism was found to be an excellent method for instantly getting Bipolars out of mania - a potential antipsychotic as well, they believe.

 

I think it's possible that you were already feeling severely bad, and because of the intense stress, you were thinking about potential problems like getting narcolepsy or autism (none of which is proven, and actually disproven, vice versa) that you triggered yourself into a very sensitive state prior to getting the needle in you - this was then enough to trigger DP/DR.

 

It's something which must have been in the works for some time - because DP/DR either comes from drug-abuse or from severe depression with anxiety prior to it - often the person are truly afflicted with a great sense of shame and negative feelings about themselves or their character. (I know of one case wherein a person felt great shame because of religious pressure and when trying it's darndest to change themselves, even though this was impossible, simply eventually strained themselves too far - and got DP/DR-ed.)

 

The Kappa Opioid networks deal with the shadow-side of the coin that is the opioid system - PUNISHMENT!

Delta and Mu deals with the feelings of pleasure and reward, the good feels you get when you succeed and are in a good place in life - Kappa mediates the emotions that come from the OTHER side... the darkness in us all... the PAIN of existence...!

 

Drugs which envoke this network, through agonism, are known to cause SUICIDAL IDEATION - Salvia and Atomoxetine (strattera) are two such drugs.

 

Hence why the scientists got the idea of doing the opposite: let's see what happens when we BLOCK this network instead! = ) Turns out their seems to be some good feels going!

 

But anyways, have a deeper look, there are plenty of threads here - people stricken with it ussually speak of "numb mind" or "empty mind", "no thoughts", "loss of inner voice".

 

Rings any bells...?

 

 

Otherwise, tell me which brand of vaccine you got, and we can check the table of contents at the manufacturers web-site, and then figure out if any of additives have quirky chemical properties.

 

 

 

References:

------------------

Kappa-opioid ligands in the study and treatment of mood disorders

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2740476/

[covered123]

Holy.. This day must be one of the worst, I could barely process what you wrote (gets worse if I don't get enough sleep). Very interesting though, "numb mind" or "empty mind", "no thoughts", "loss of inner voice" - it rings all the bells actually, I will look into it (edit:  are these symptoms meant for depersonalization or ..?). I did stress quite a lot about training and eating in correct intervals and correctly (for a whole year), but not that much to trigger something like this I hope. About the brand.. I googled far and wide to get which brand is used in Slovenia, but I couldn't find it. It must be pretty regular I suppose. If I have a depersonalization, how do I cure it (if possible without medication)? Also thanks again for taking your time to talk to me, I am more than grateful

[Mind_Paralysis]

Holy.. This day must be one of the worst, I could barely process what you wrote (gets worse if I don't get enough sleep). Very interesting though, "numb mind" or "empty mind", "no thoughts", "loss of inner voice" - it rings all the bells actually, I will look into it (edit:  are these symptoms meant for depersonalization or ..?). I did stress quite a lot about training and eating in correct intervals and correctly (for a whole year), but not that much to trigger something like this I hope. About the brand.. I googled far and wide to get which brand is used in Slovenia, but I couldn't find it. It must be pretty regular I suppose. If I have a depersonalization, how do I cure it (if possible without medication)? Also thanks again for taking your time to talk to me, I am more than grateful

 

They are symptoms of Depersonalization, indeed.

 

Have a closer look at this forum, for more experience-reports on this:

 

http://www.dpselfhel...covery-stories/

 

One has to remember that the descriptions of the symptoms which people give are not universal, and they don't always fit entirely into the DSM-definition of the disease - but DP/DR does have certain patterns anyway, even when it's described differently by those afflicted with it - that's probably why we have so many threads in the forum right now, whom all basically describe the same thing, but with different wording.

 

I am not certain how to cure it without medication - exercise is good, but otherwise, the only other non-medical cure I know of... is TIME. Eventually the symptoms subside, for the wast majority - most people only suffer DP/DR for a few months, up to a few years (with weakening symptoms, continously), but some are stricken for the long-term... (have a closer look at the forum-section I posted though - perhaps there are some non-medical methods some people have found?)

 

 

If you read up more closely on Depersonalisation/ Derealisation and come to the conclusion that yes, this is truly what I have, then I seriously, seriously suggest you give medication a try - because as far as I have been able to deduce, it's the only method which gives any clear advantage.

 

The following medications have been proven to help with DP/DR:

 

SSRI's (fluoxetine, sertraline, et c)

 

LAMOTRIGINE (this one has the most evidence backing it - DP/DR is theorized to be a disease of the opioid and NMDA-systems - Lamotrigine modulates glutamate-receptors, such as NMDA)

 

Modafinil (this seems to be a specific sub-type though - people whom have problems with ATTENTION and DP/DR - could be they have undiagnosed ADD/SCT/CDD)

 

There is also some suggesting evidence that experimental kappa-antagonists such as JDtic, CERC-501 and others could be a more effective, quicker treatment of DP/DR - hence such compounds are currently in medical trials for the treatment of DP/DR. I am a member of a group buy of one such compound - Cerc-501.

However, that's an experimental drug, and even though we could use you in the group buy, I can't with a clear conscience recommend you try anything like that - try an SSRI first, and then Lamotrigine, and so forth - THEN you give a Kappa-antagonist a try.
 

 

And you are most welcome for the advice! ^^ I do only what I want others to do for me as well.

[covered123]

I fit those symptoms perfectly, all but the one that "this is all a dream / an illusion - it can't be because it was real before. I did thought few times, that I may be in a coma and am just dreaming though, but more as an interesting idea, but as you said I may not have all of them. About medications.. Are any of listed receipt free? I really don't want to go to doctors for this. Also, are they safe? Thanks in advance

[Mind_Paralysis]

My brain is burning out... can barely make a coherent thought...

 

...But you really, really need to see a Dr. - the odds of you being able to treat yourself successfully are not good. DP/DR is a serious condition that needs an expert to treat.

 

The drugs mentioned are reasonably safe - the safest ones are probably the SSRI's - followed by Lamotrigine and then Modafinil. The reason I'm ranking Modafinil the lowest is because it has shown SOME addictive properties.

 

Lamotrigine is known to cause very serious skin-rashes, it is, however, the best medication at the moment, for the treatment of DP/DR.

[covered123]

Wait.. Do you have this too? The problem is that they have dragged me and will drag me to all the doctors possible, one more careless that the other. I tried with the doctors, yet all I got was disappointment. If there is any way for me to heal by myself I will surely try it. Are these medications receipt free? (doctors don't need to write a "permission")

 

[hdl_1]

Eventually you'll have to invest in some supplements and see what works.
First, you need to get rid of the stress that this creates you. As I previously said, I suggest you manage the stress and depression with the usual adaptogens, bacopa monnieri, ashwagandha, l-theanine, lion's mane, etc.
Add ons could be NAC, some good magnesium, B6, B12, fish oil.
Then get your attention up by targeting the cholinergic system: noopept/piracetam (with or without Alpha GPC)
Modulate you mood with L Tryptophan (or 5htp) + L phenilalanine (or l Tyrosine).
After this, you may want to modulate your glutaminergic system to get the energy going: glycine/d-serine/sarcosine, aniracetam, agmatine.
Not sure if Fasoracetam applies to you but it upregulates gaba-b and could also be of interest...

On a side note, getting rid of the stress may be all what you need to get yourself way better. I feel from your posts that you are getting into panic mode which is a big DON'T in dp/dr. All succes stories in dp/dr habe 1 thing in common: they all accepted what was happening. Dp/dr is a self sustaining condition based on on stress/fear reaction. It agravates the more you think about it and the more you try to figure out what's going on.

I hope this helps you break the stress cycle at least.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

[Mind_Paralysis]

Wait.. Do you have this too? The problem is that they have dragged me and will drag me to all the doctors possible, one more careless that the other. I tried with the doctors, yet all I got was disappointment. If there is any way for me to heal by myself I will surely try it. Are these medications receipt free? (doctors don't need to write a "permission")

 

Ah, no, I don't - that was just poor wording on my part.

 

I have something called SCT - Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, and then Burnout Depression on top of that.

I can probably be described as the OPPOSITE of you - I have no problem forming thoughts - it's more that I form TOO MANY thoughts, negative thoughts, which then impede action. I also suffer from a terrible fatigue, brought about partially by the burnout, but mostly at the moment because I'm trialling / tapering off of something called Atomoxetine - it's a drug for the treatment of ADHD and SCT, which is known to cause horrific somnolence (sleepiness) and depressive mood.

 

It's also one of the few things that actually works for SCT, and also take a looong time before it kicks in, hence why I've had such intense side-effects for so long - can't give up on it.

 

 

I was also suffering from Mirtazapine hangover when I wrote that - Mirtazapine always causes even MORE fatigue, somnolence and brainfog for me, but I still used it, since I'm also tapering off a Z-drug (Zopiclone, a sedative drug which works similar to benzodiazepines).

 

 

Alas, none of the drugs I mentioned are receipt-free, over-the-counter - they all require prescription.

 

 

But there are ways around prescriptions - as long as the drugs aren't controlled substances / street drugs.

 

 

Btw, what do you mean with the Dr.'s being careless? Are there no expert Psychiatrists in your home-country? I still suggest you find a Dr. which you find trust-worthy. I understand if you felt disappointed - so have I, it can often be very frustrating if you have a difficult to treat disease - the Dr's do not always have any straight-forward answers then, and unless they're experts, they may be hesitant as to how to treat you - but you have to give it time - DP/DR takes time to heal.

[covered123]

I see. I want to wait some more before I go buying all the supplements, I mean it is possible to heal it naturally. I'm not in panic mode, just frustrated, which is still stressful so yeah, I will try to accept it for what it is yet it's hard to just live with it and not look for a solution. I stopped lifting for a month, stopped using creatine and zinc supplements but I can't relieve stress for at least a month (all the exams). After that I will try to enjoy life as much as possible. I do get that feeling of actually feeling life from time to time, which is new and is giving a lot of new hope to me. If too much stress is really the root of the problem, then I guess it was the stress of training (when, how hard,..), eating (when, how much). It turned from something I liked to do to something I had to do and yeah, that needle and collapsing with spasms in front of schoolmates must have gotten me over the point. Yet I don't remember thinking too much about lifting, I always had something in the back of my mind passively processing it. Anyway, I guess the only natural cure is to relax.

[covered123]

Stinkorninjor sounds like some very heavy stuff.. Have you tried that trick to clear your mind? It's used in meditation basically.

About doctors.. There are good doctors and are bad.. Unfortunately mine is one of the bad ones, so I just let go of that and started trying to heal it by myself, that's why I'm here. As answered to hdl_1, in a month I am school free and then I will try to enjoy life as much as possible. I do get that feeling of actually feeling life from time to time, which is new and is giving a lot of new hope to me.

[dreamedm]

What you describe is classic DP/DR. Don't listen to these people who insist that you must take meds. Sometimes meds can exacerbate the problem(s) and can get in the way of recovery. Many people (perhaps most) who recovered from DP/DR did it naturally. If you don't feel very depressed and can cope with your condition while living life, I think it may be better to try the natural route.

 

As for the "expert" doctors - nobody really knows how to treat DP/DR (as with most mental illnesses) and it's all trial and error. Most psychiatrists don't even have much experience with DP/DR, and usually think it's part of depression. For most, meds do not cure DP/DR, as far as I know. From what I gathered from your posts, you do not sound like you have Major Depression.

Edited by dreamedm, 08 May 2017 - 09:45 PM.

[covered123]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have any kind of depression, actually all I feel is some stress and numb, dreamlike feeling. Yeah, I will try to cope with it naturally

[Lelel12]

I fit those symptoms perfectly, all but the one that "this is all a dream / an illusion - it can't be because it was real before. I did thought few times, that I may be in a coma and am just dreaming though, but more as an interesting idea, but as you said I may not have all of them. About medications.. Are any of listed receipt free? I really don't want to go to doctors for this. Also, are they safe? Thanks in advance

I felt the same. After a few months it became better and these thoughts werent as scary as they used to be. I get them like once a day, but short and im not thinking much about it. I had bad dr/dp and today im sometimed asking myself if i still have it and i cant really answer that. But i think that okayish if i cant say for sure that im feeling disconnected. I recovered like 70%.

But what is more concerning: As i read this, i remembered that i got the same vaccination like 3 days before i got my second episode. Dont get me wrong, i strongly believe in vaccines, but it is something to think about.

Edited by Lelel12, 10 June 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Shai Hulud]

Please find out what vaccine it was (not the disease, but product/brand).

[jack black]

The history of vaccine could be a red herring. It's possible the OP fainted because he was anxious already before and the whole hospital and clueless docs ordeal put him in an overdrive stress and anxiety.

This reminds me over 20 years ago when I was very anxious about finding a new job and saw a clueless pdoc who gave me a script for Wellbutrin. That shit put me in DP on the day 1 and I ditched it.

IMHO, the OP needs to remove stress and treat anxiety.