164 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

I'm 30 hours into my fast and while I do have mental clarity, what's bugging me most of all is the hunger pangs in my stomach. While they come and go, when they come it's almost unbearable. I dunno how to deal with the pain of it or whether this is always a problem with fasting or what. 

 

Will ginger root extract help? Does ginger root extract interfere with the autophagy and effects on mTOR or all the SIRT activation that happens? What about other antioxidants?

 

So many questions that appear to be unanswered by the internet at large when it comes to fasting. 

 

 

[HaplogroupW]

> what's bugging me most of all is the hunger pangs

 

When it was too distracting, that's when I'd put some heavy cream in some coffee, and/or eat a bit of red cabbage (insert your favorite almost calorie/carb-free food here).  In my case it helps.

 

I don't know anything about ginger root. I recall having read that it's certain amino acids that mTOR senses, and so eating protein is what shuts off autophagy. Thus fat (e.g. heavy cream) can be OK on a fast, if autophagy is the goal. Caveat: I'm no authority, I can't provide the reference, and this could all be misinformation.

 

[Nate-2004]

This is just the extract of ginger root if that means anything. No idea if it has any amino acids but I do know protein is what stops the autophagy. Doesn't heavy cream have proteins? Red cabbage appears to have calories AND some protein. What about flaxseed oil or olive oil? Do polyphenols stop any of the benefits?

Edited by Nate-2004, 16 May 2017 - 12:20 AM.

[sthira]

I'm 30 hours into my fast and while I do have mental clarity, what's bugging me most of all is the hunger pangs in my stomach. While they come and go, when they come it's almost unbearable. I dunno how to deal with the pain of it or whether this is always a problem with fasting or what.

Awesome! Congratulations! Slap yourself on the back, man, you used to tell us no way could you ever do this!

30 hours is plenty for now, in my humble opinion. Give yourself props for going this long! I think the trick is to ease into fasting and learn to make it less painful and even enjoyable.

If you continue your fast, try drinking more water. Sometimes I find my mind tells me I'm hungry when I'm just thirsty.

[HaplogroupW]

 

Doesn't heavy cream have proteins? Red cabbage appears to have calories AND some protein.

 

In the amounts I'm referring to (1/4 cup red cabbage or 2 tablespoons heavy cream) protein and carbs are both less than 1 gram in both cases.

 

[xEva]

Nate, but what do you mean by 'hunger pangs'? What exactly you experience?

 

Pain? I've never experience pain while fasting. Do you mean pain from cramps of stomach, which is a muscle sack? And yes it can contract very strongly and painfully, like any muscle. But this is not normal. I personally experienced it only once. 

 

If it is pain proper, from muscle cramp proper, you should persevere and not even drink water, cause even a small sip will stop those cramps cold --until the stomach is empty again. Once it's empty, the cramps will resume. You should just let them happen. Just go with them, until you feel that something is finally squeezed into the lumen of the stomach. That's what all this effort is for. Then the cramps will stop.

Edited by xEva, 16 May 2017 - 03:18 AM.

[Nate-2004]

That stomach pain, the growling, the churning, the cramping, has always told me I'm hungry and should eat. Eating has always stopped it. It lasts for more than a couple hours at a time and it's really a miserable experience. I don't see how any of you stand this.

[xEva]

Nate, since you've suffered already for so long, allow this process to succeed. Don't ingest anything, 'cause, as I said, even a sip of water will stop the cramps. Let it cramp, it's a very important physiological process. The stomach is actually trying to squeeze something  through the stomach wall, into the lumen of the stomach. When it will succeed, you will feel it. You will be digesting whatever have appeared in there. The hunger will go away, the cramps will go away. You only will be experiencing a contraction on the stomach, once every 30-45 min or so, which will leave something in your stomach to be digested, as usual. This is rare though. As I said, I fasted gazillion times, but experienced it only once. You need to let it happen. You will be glad in the end that you did.

[Nate-2004]

Yes it's the contractions I am experiencing. Growling and contracting and cramping that I normally experience as being hunger. I can't stand that feeling. I saw on various youtube science videos that this is mistaken by most people as a signal to eat. That's what I've thought it was for my entire life.

Edited by Nate-2004, 16 May 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[xEva]

Nate, so what did you do? did you swallow some capsules, drank water, what?  Or you let it happen at last? 

 

the thing is, there is no way around it. To stop these cramps once and for all you have to let them run their course. But it does not take long -- only a couple of hours, 3 at most, without ingesting anything, which interrupts the process.  Now, the cramps can get very strong and painful just before they finally succeed, but then you'll be finally free from them. Never again! And this will be accompanied by a noticeable improvement in your health (better immune sys, less allergies).

[Nate-2004]

I suppose I could try not drinking or taking a single capsule of anything. 

[HaplogroupW]

 

That stomach pain, the growling, the churning, the cramping

 

Hmm I don't experience that. "Cramping" makes me wonder if it's electrolyte related. Did you read that bit in the keto FAQ? Some source of salt, possibly also magnesium and potassium.

[Nate-2004]

I have magnesium, salt and potassium that I'm taking during this. Can't be that. Also this has been something that happens whenever I am hungry my entire life. Since I was born. I've always assumed this happens to everyone, in fact it has a name, hunger pangs.

Edited by Nate-2004, 16 May 2017 - 08:12 PM.

[xEva]

 

That stomach pain, the growling, the churning, the cramping

 
Hmm I don't experience that. "Cramping" makes me wonder if it's electrolyte related. Did you read that bit in the keto FAQ? Some source of salt, possibly also magnesium and potassium.

 

 
People who practice fasting, even less than 20h once a week, never experience this. This is very rare, though cramping can be so strong  that the memory of it lives long. In stories about famines they are described as unbearable "hunger pangs".
 
Again, this should not be confused with intestinal cramping, this is just stomach. And this has nothing to do with muscle cramps that can occur later, much later, in the fast due to electrolyte imbalances. 
 
I see someone clicked "unsure" under my prev. post, presumably not convinced that once these cramps allowed to run their course, they will not return. This is because people do not understand the reason for them. The other confounding factor is that they are so rare that they are practically unheard of in fasting communities. The only actual physical pain people may experience during a fast is due to stomach ulcers, for those who have them. But pain due to stomach contractions? Never -- oh yeah, except when one throws up, but that's different. 
 
The thing is, there is no way I can provide an acceptable explanation to Nate about the origin of and the reason for these pangs -- until he lives through their completion and so becomes convinced via his direct experience. 
 
 

[Nate-2004]

So by 14:00 EST today I'll be 72 hours in. I'm not feeling the kind of energy people talk about, I feel kind of weak and in a sort of lackadaisical state of mind. I rode my bike around the city yesterday and down the Fairmount trail, for a good hour and a half or so. Same the day before. I rode my bike to work this morning and felt like I was in a daze and that it took a lot of effort to pedal. I feel like I don't wanna do anything today. Maybe a couple of cups of coffee will do the trick? This is just not how I feel in a fed state though.

[sthira]

Again, congratulations on your fast. Most people won't or can't undergo such a thing, although I find it worthwhile. Is it healthy? Depends.

I like Longo's quote about the fasting state being the normal condition for most creatures. Eating is what's special.

About your cramps and energy levels, I doubt anyone can't say but you or your (enlightened) doctor. Or maybe you should try a more organized fasting retreat?

One thing I've found is every fast is different. Some make me feel good, and I have high positive energy; other fasts make me feel terrible. Sometimes all of that occurs during a single fast -- feel great for awhile, then dive back into human misery.

It's been helpful to jot down some brief notes during my fasts, and if nothing else, these make interesting reading later. I write the positives and negatives, and the words serve as little reminders when I'm contemplating another fast.

Unfortunately, you're not going to find much human study and definitive answers about the benefits and detriments of fasting. Lots of trash about mice -- mice studies are mostly useless, in my opinion, mice die quickly when they don't eat. We can go on and on and on for a very long time on practically nothing.

Here in the desert in the mirage, I like Longo, Fung, Goldhamer, a few others -- they're about as clear as I've found with regard to the art of fasting.

I've fasted too much I believe. I've overdone it. It became like an addiction for me, and I'm probably on an anorexia spectrum. I know many other anorexics, and not-eating can become like contagion. Everything is dose dependent, and we're on our own in discovering what's appropriate for n1 us since little help seems coming anytime soon.

[Oakman]

I have these pains from not eating often enough, so I doubt they are not 'normal'. Eating stops them immediately. But in your case, perhaps just tough it out. I can't remember now, as it's been years, since I did an authentic fast of days, how long for them to stop. I wouldn't recommend coffee as that is a gastric stimulant, not good to calm the stomach.

 

One suggestion, try taking some fiber, such as glucomannan with a lot of water. Water certainly doesn't break a fast, you need water ... period. The NOW gulco I have says 3 caps provides 1.725 grams fiber, and 5 calories or <1% of carbs and 8% fiber.  That's insignificant, and as long as you take sufficient water with it, and may provide some feeling of fullness. In fact, that's what it for, to take before meals to provide fullness feeling so you don't eat so much or in your case, nothing at all. It just may take away the hunger pangs, which I know are very distracting and unpleasant!

 

In the end, if you stay fasted long enough, your hunger should go away, and you will be left in a weird calm state, not requiring eating, which is very strange when you haven't eaten in a while. I guess it's the body's way of self-protection in a stressfull situation.

[xEva]

what are your sugar and ketone readings?

weight loss?

 

And you did not say if you keep ingesting pills/water as a means of controlling your hunger pangs -?

 

Regardless, rest assured that next time you do it it will be much easier. The first time is always the toughest. Important thing here is not to wait too long before you repeat it, otherwise all you'll retain is  the dread of the experience lol. 

[Nate-2004]

Thanks Sthira. This was more of a "how far can I go" thing. The ideal goal was 96 hours but 72 was enough of a challenge that I knew if I pushed myself I could get this far. I'm celebrating with a burrito at 14:00 today.  

 

I experienced some added clarity during the fast, some additional mental prowess and acuity to an impressive degree, but overall, I have been hungry the whole time. The stomach growling crampy emptiness in my stomach feels terrible, like LSD sometimes feels, but not so sharp as that, and it's very distracting and does not go away, whether I drink water or stop drinking water. Drinking water, taking magnesium and potassium and getting salt does not help much at all.  

 

I think after watching some of Jason Fung's videos I might try something different next time to achieve the same results by just getting 1700 calories in fats only. No protein because of mTOR, just fats like olive oil, flaxseed oil, heavy cream and coconut oil. You can still hit autophagy theoretically and it'd probably be a lot easier to prolong it since it would not be as miserable. Last night I fell asleep dreaming of food. If I do this again, it'll be twice a year at most.

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 May 2017 - 03:34 PM.

[Nate-2004]

what are your sugar and ketone readings?

weight loss?

 

And you did not say if you keep ingesting pills/water as a means of controlling your hunger pangs -?

 

Regardless, rest assured that next time you do it it will be much easier. The first time is always the toughest. Important thing here is not to wait too long before you repeat it, otherwise all you'll retain is  the dread of the experience lol. 

 

I went a few hours like you said without water or taking any pills. It came back though. Maybe we're just different biologically or this is something that doesn't go away until I'm used to fasting.

 

I will consider doing this again soon but I'm hesitant about that.

 

My ketone readings on urine strip tests were high yesterday. They've hovered around moderate to small as expected with a lot of water. I hear that the readings are stronger the less water you drink but that's a dehydration thing.

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 May 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[xEva]

I went a few hours like you said without water or taking any pills. It came back though. Maybe we're just different biologically or this is something that doesn't go away until I'm used to fasting

I see you did not understand. The cramps are supposed to increase, dramatically, when you stop ingesting things. Because ingesting things stops the process, and then it has to re-start again. But undisturbed, it sorta crescendos, reaches the apogee, and then stops.

 

oh well, next time, maybe

Edited by xEva, 17 May 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I don't have a sugar machine right now, and I'm at work so I can't check ketones. I checked ketones with strips several times a day and they always read with a small to moderate reading.

[Oakman]

I don't have a sugar machine right now, and I'm at work so I can't check ketones. I checked ketones with strips several times a day and they always read with a small to moderate reading.

 

Take strips to work, pee, and check whenever, no?

[Nate-2004]

 

I don't have a sugar machine right now, and I'm at work so I can't check ketones. I checked ketones with strips several times a day and they always read with a small to moderate reading.

 

Take strips to work, pee, and check whenever, no?

 

 

Woulda coulda shoulda, too late now. My fast is over in just over an hour and a half from now.

[Nate-2004]

I will be doing "fasting" again tomorrow in terms of intermittent fasting which I'll try to keep up for a while if it turns out I'm better at it as a result of this challenge.

[Oakman]

I will be doing "fasting" again tomorrow in terms of intermittent fasting which I'll try to keep up for a while if it turns out I'm better at it as a result of this challenge.

 

Now u r talking!  8 / 16 is the way to go, at least you feel somewhat human doing it

[Nate-2004]

Yeah you get some of the benefits I guess, I was going for max autophagy in this case so I had to do at least 72. I was also trying to force myself to get used to no food, this may make it easier.

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 May 2017 - 05:06 PM.

[sthira]

The stomach growling crampy emptiness in my stomach feels terrible, like LSD sometimes feels, but not so sharp as that, and it's very distracting and does not go away, whether I drink water or stop drinking water.

That's an interesting way to describe it. I definitely think the mental aspects of fasting can be both yay and nay. I'm wondering if your fasting experiment gave you any of the upside benefits of a, um, microdose of LSD?

I could talk your ear off on that one.

Food deprivation definitely stresses the brain in myriad ways no one is ever close to even identifying, yet alone explaining and understanding. No money for such nonsense (me and my sarcasm alert).

Have you checked in with Mark Mattson's work yet?

https://scholar.goog...XRBAIoQgQMIGjAA

He has an interesting TED talk, too. I like him a lot -- he's def a fellow traveler.

Just a side wonder: had you ever experienced hunger before this short fast? True hunger you assuredly did not reach, not even close, but I wonder if your brain understands what hunger is? That sounds insulting. I did not mean it that way. To your unconscious brain -- what's underneath the surface Nate -- what does it mean to go hungry?

After your 72 hour fast you most definitely derived many health benefits. I'll start with lower BP, BG, you may have raised up ketones a bit. Maybe not.

You'll get more into this gig the more you do it. And the practice of fasting pleasantly gets easier with more experience. You learn from mistakes and achievements. It's art. Fasting is an art project.

Be aware there are proper ways to break a fast -- even just 72 hours. Be easy with reawakening the chemistry surrounding those slumbering tubes inside of you.

You might find your taste buds a-reset. Fruits and veggies might taste better now. Salt may taste saltier; sugar may taste sugariarererrr. Bitter may be sharper. Sense of humor may increase or decrease -- depends on the art project. Feeling one with trees and plovers may come more naturally. Your poetry may get worse (mine did). While fasting, please I beg you to look up at that moon at night! All those stars!

I guess one of the reasons people do these expensive blood tests is to show themselves directly what benefits were gained (at least in the near term). But these tests are fucking expensive and questionable unless you spend thousands and do them over the years and decades. Some CR people test repeatedly, good for them, I wonder what benefits they see? General patterns and trends, I reckon, and does some value quickly and suddenly go berserk.

[Nate-2004]

I dunno if it had any similar effects to LSD, the mental acuity seemed sharper, while it's generally more distracted on LSD.

 

As for whether I've been hungry before, sure, especially if I go longer than 6 or 7 waking hrs without a meal. I've never gone a single day without a meal in my life till the past 3 days. I don't understand why either you or xEva don't get the stomach hunger pangs thing. It's a thing that has always been the case for me, it's always been a signal for hunger, it's always been super uncomfortable until I feed it. I'm sure any of my friends could tell me the same experience. 

[sthira]

It's a fasting practice, Nate, not a fasting perfect. You don't jump to the head of class. You pay your dues just like the rest of us lonely miserable fucks. Of course everyone else who goes without food for a few days gets hunger pains, too. This is part of the experience; learning how to deal with uncomfortable shit sometimes indicates growth.

Then again maybe not.

The first few fasts are gonna be hard. Like suddenly running up a hill when you're not accustomed to suddenly running up a hill, you'd get pissy. Curse yourself for losing your breath, stop running up hills, and then you'll lose whatever the benefits or detriments or both or none that exist in running up hills.

I hate running up hills, so I don't. What I don't understand, though, is why people who run up hills don't get winded and seem to enjoy it. My friends all say the same thing -- fuck them hills -- people who like running up hills must be "biological outliers" yes that's it: BO people.