164 replies to this topic

[ceridwen]

No lifestyle extensions? I hope Rapamycin will work.

[sthira]

No lifestyle extensions? I hope Rapamycin will work.

I hope it'll work, too. Yet even in the best case scenario rapamycin is an attempted CR mimetic, something maybe like acarbose that may extend longevity in a wide range of species, unfortunately excluding us. Rapamycin is one metabolic intervention, and probably isn't going to repair, replace or render harmless the effects of aging in us the wild-roaming humans.

PF and CR probably won't, either, but they're definitely hitting more targets than our alternatives, and they're free, and their side effects appear more benign, and their bullshit factor (marketing hype) is lower while we remain in LE limbo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4133883/ :

"Rapamycin, an antibiotic, immune-suppressor drug, is another proposed CRM that has shown a longevity benefit. After studies showing the extension of replicative lifespan of yeast via inhibition of the TOR signaling in response to rapamycin treatment (60), it was reported that rapamycin extends the median and maximum lifespan of 20-month-old mice accompanied with a decrease in TOR activity. Since then, many studies have been conducted to ascertain the function of rapamycin as a CRM. However, it is important to note that there is evidence showing adverse side-effects of rapamycin such as an increase in the incidence of diabetes."

...

"...Although it has been 75 years since the beneficial effects of caloric restriction on animal health were first reported, the underlying mechanism of longevity extension in response to food restriction has still not been identified...."

Edited by sthira, 08 May 2018 - 03:02 PM.

[Nate-2004]

We do need to know, but there are obnoxiously over hesitant, irrational, nanny state supporting bioethicists that proclaim there is some kind of problem with experimenting with fasting, despite the key element of consent and right of self-ownership. It's absurd and were I able, were I to know what I was doing, were I to have the skills, funds and organizational skills to conduct a real study on fasting that includes collecting lab work, monitoring biomarkers, taking biopsies, etc, I would.

[sthira]

...monitoring biomarkers, taking biopsies, etc,

I think it's probably easy to find consenting patients willing to undergo PF and agree to blood draws; but far more challenging to find patients willing to submit to liver, skin, and muscle biopsies.

A test for autophagy in humans would be a beautiful advance and probably a Nobel Peace Prize discovery.

[HaplogroupW]

That's interesting, thanks. How long is your current fast, what's your routine, and how's it going?
...

For increased energy while prolonged fasting I drink coffee, which may also be interrupting the fast. Researchers don't know. I'm not fasting supervised in a clinic, and I don't have that option. So I'm making due.

 

5 days, just broke it. I should have disclaimed: I've never done a 14 day fast like you mentioned. Longest so far is 10 day.

 

How it's going: I fell into it almost by "accident". I did the first long bike ride of the season (40 miles is long for me) with warm weather. Fairly intense; I ride about like a competitive cyclist does training rides, with hill intervals. I like to do them fasted. After I got back I felt not merely not hungry, but actually averse to food. Seemed like a good time to start a fast. I put in 160 miles over the 5 days, and felt either indifferent or averse to eating throughout. It's strange because I remember just a few weeks ago thinking "about time to do another fast", but feeling like I couldn't do it. As if the fasting muscle had atrophied. Maybe the way Nate feels about fasting. I haven't put my finger on exactly how to get to the state where I just don't want to eat. Maybe it's as simple as doing the hot sweaty workout each day.

 

Regarding what's my routine: I don't have one yet. I've been experimenting with various ways of eating over the last year. I recently returned to the idea that to get to my lean goal (single digit body fat %) I'm going to have to fast. And eating OMAD or at least time-restricted eating when I eat. So I'm contemplating perhaps a 5-day fast once a month or so to get there, and then perhaps do something different to stay there.

 

I chain drink coffee, grean tea and water while fasting.  I never thought of those as breaking a fast.

[sthira]

Kentavr, I'm interested in what you wrote in another post:

...Fasting

shows good results in people with fasting for 5 days, followed by a mandatory 25-day recovery.

Fasting is needed to reduce "IGF-1" and activate "FOXO1"

In the method of fasting, only 8 cycles.

After 1 cycle - slight deterioration of the stem cell pool
2 and 3 cycles - almost complete cell compensation, without deterioration
4 cycle - the number of stem cells is slightly higher than after the onset of the FMD diet.
after a complete 8 cycle - the number of cells in the bone marrow is 6 times greater than before fasting

If you can translate Russian, unrecognized work from Soviet fasting experiments may exist. This video:

https://youtu.be/t1b08X-GvRs

seems to suggest that stacks of papers, which may be a large body of old fasting research, could add to our knowledge about fasting in humans.

How difficult would it be to access this work? Grants may be available for translation; it needs to be brought into the modern era. It would be a wonderful project for the right group of researchers.

[xEva]

Grants may be available for translation

 

where do I sign?

Attached Files

•  LechebnoyeGolodanie_1969.pdf   50.5MB   0 downloads

[xEva]

sthira, above is scanned copy of Therapeutic Fasting, published by Ministry of Health of the RSFSR in 1969. There is a translated to English Intro there, starting on page 12.

 

I could translate it. How do I apply for a grant? Or why wouldn't you guys crowdfund me?

[sthira]

sthira, above is scanned copy of Therapeutic Fasting, published by Ministry of Health of the RSFSR in 1969. There is a translated to English Intro there, starting on page 12.

I could translate it. How do I apply for a grant? Or why wouldn't you guys crowdfund me?

Oh snap, that's cool as shit, thanks!

where do I sign?

Gee, I don't seem to "have permission" to access this. Can you relink it, I'm motivated to read it :-)

Edited by sthira, 02 June 2018 - 10:46 AM.

[xEva]

I don't know why one cannot download the file -? I was wondering why there were 0 downloads. I thought maybe it was too big (all pages were scanned as images). 

 

But here is here is the 6-page English intro. The translation from behind the iron curtain is not good, but readable (sounds like the translator rarely heard the native en speech)

Attached Files

•  TherapeuticFasting1969_Intro.pdf   10.2MB   11 downloads

[sthira]

I don't know why one cannot download the file -? I was wondering why there were 0 downloads. I thought maybe it was too big (all pages were scanned as images).

But here is here is the 6-page English intro. The translation from behind the iron curtain is not good, but readable (sounds like the translator rarely heard the native en speech)

Well thanks, that's really cool. And the translation reads just fine -- wish we had Moar, tho. It would make a fine PhD for someone to bring it to modernity. Meanwhile, a half-century has revolved, and the Soviet researchers have lost their fasting mojo.

Where have we heard this beforel: "First, undoubtably, it is necessary to continue to widen the application of hunger treatment (as independent curative methods and in combination with other methods) in various psychotic and somatic diseases..."

A half-century isn't long in science, though, so maybe there's hope to pick the thread up. If the obesity epidemic intensifies, e.g., and eventually bankrupts the medical model and social security, profit-based may eat itself. Marx, not forgotten, says these stages progress on predictable schedule.

[Nate-2004]

It's old and not enough to really go on as far as understanding how and when autophagy begins in humans after a specific number of hours, etc.

[sthira]

It's old and not enough to really go on as far as understanding how and when autophagy begins in humans after a specific number of hours, etc.

Yeah well fortunately nothing has changed about our old biology and what fasting does to it since these studies elapsed, and wasn't "autophagy" only "discovered" in the 1960s (?)...

If fasting solves human problems, eventually "we" will figure out ways to use it for our benefit (eg, Longo is publishing wrt chemotherapy)

[xEva]

wish we had Moar

 

Moar?

 

Mother of All Rallies is a rally held ... in support of President Donald Trump. ;lol

 

Urban Dictionary: moar

1. A combination of "more" and "roar". 2. An order bellowed to a forum to remedy the bellower's insufficient pr0n collection. Usually accompanied by foaming at ...

[Nate-2004]

The first pilot study to examine the 16:8 diet (8 hours of free eating between 10 am to 6 pm and 16 hours of fasting in-between) suggests that daily fasting is an effective tool to reduce weight and lower blood pressure in obese individuals.

https://today.uic.ed...for-weight-loss

[Nate-2004]

I'm posting about potassium here and some guy chimes in saying electrolytes prevent autophagy by keeping acetyl-CoA up but I can't find a single reference... I'm starting to see that he might be full of it but you tell me.

 

https://www.reddit.c...extended_fasts/

 

Also, I'm at 1.7 on the blood ketone meter at 48+ hours now and he's saying I must be seriously underweight because nobody depletes glycogen stores that fast.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I weigh 80kg and I'm 5'11. That's a BMI of 24.9.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 24 July 2018 - 10:02 PM.

[xEva]

Hi Nate in that reddit thread you're worried about "refeeding syndrome". But it does not happen on fasts. I never ever saw refeeding syndrome come up on fasting forums, even when people fasted for 30-40 and more days, and even when they did it wrong and had lasting neurological complications.

 

Refeeding syndrome happens only in famines, when people starve, not fast -- and starving people eat whatever they can get their hands on, however rarely and however strange (like trying to cook leather or glue, or eat grass and other unsavory things). The key electrolyte in refeeding syndrome is P and it's not something to supplement, certainly not on a fast.

 

Regardless, 5 days which you plan is hardly an "extended fast". and you don't need any supplements on it (except maybe some Na, if you must drink lotsa water). The old days fasting enthusiast Paul Bragg often fasted for 10 days and he insisted on distilled water, which is what most old school fasters do to this day, including in fasting clinics. Not that I agree with them, but they certainly proved with their extensive experience that one can fast even on distilled water-- 0 electrolytes!

 

Also regarding supplements, you don't seem to understand one simple thing. During a fast you "eat yourself" or your cells, like old and damaged cells. And cells certainly have K and all other electrolytes, in just the right amounts. It's when you eat is when you have to worry about the proper nutrients: lack some and even those  nutrients  that you do get don't get assimilated, because some key or crucial nutrient  is lacking. But when you fast, you have all the nutrients, in right proportions, within. That's what you don't seem to grasp and maybe that's why fasting causes you such anxiety.  

 

 

 

Re onset of ketosis, it depends on liver glycogen stores, which in turn depends on how much your liver can hold and, most importantly, the size and qualities of your last meal. Switching to ketosis 48h after the last meal is the norm. 16h is complete nonsense. This comes not from observation of real experience but from theory (i.e. how long an average quantity of liver glycogen should last to an average person). This does not take into the account the simple fact that you don't touch your liver glycogen until you fully digest and assimilate your last meal (during which time, your liver glycogen stores actually increase). Only after the last meal is fully assimilated do you start using your liver glycogen. Muscle glycogen is a separate system and exercising per se (except running a marathon) does not touch liver glycogen.  

 

 

You're too  anxious about fasting. If it's so hard on you, you should do 24-36h fasts once a week. Better yet, fast once a week for as long as you can  manage, trying to extend each time by an hour or two, until you're comfortable with 36h.  But do it regularly, just once a week (not 2 or 3 times a week and not once in 2 weeks!). It's like training. You gotta be consistent.  

Edited by xEva, 26 July 2018 - 02:17 AM.

[pamojja]

Refeeding syndrome happens only in famines, when people starve, not fast -- and starving people eat whatever they can get their hands on, however rarely and however strange (like trying to cook leather or glue, or eat grass and other unsavory things). The key electrolyte in refeeding syndrome is P and it's not something to supplement, certainly not on a fast.

 

Learned a lot about refeeding syndrome in some difficult to tread conditions in this PhoenixRising thread:

 

https://forums.phoen...ciencies.41605/
 

In short, it doesn't only happen with starvation, but could become a side-effect in overcoming certain nutrient deficiencies.

[sthira]

You're too anxious about fasting

Here's a 2009 look that indicates therapeutic fasting may improve anxiety scores in 80% of chronic pain patients after a few days.

https://www.psy-jour...e/S0165-1781(12)00815-3/abstract?code=psy-site

Of course the mechanisms remain mysterious (to study fasting in humans for a few days is too hard for science) but fasting releases endorphins (in rodents). Maybe like "runner’s high," natural endorphins can feel even better than even popping scary opioid pills (fasting can make you feel good naturally in response to metabolically stressful events). Mattson is helpful here, see YouTube https://youtu.be/Yk_q54Js9mk

Effects of fasting are wide-ranging but most of what we know about how it changes our brains is from research on rodents. Yet it's clear that fasting can change brain chemistry, mood, and mental functioning to the point of reducing risk for neurodegenerative disorders.

Plus, only the cool kids do it, so...this:

You're too anxious about fasting. If it's so hard on you, you should do 24-36h fasts once a week. Better yet, fast once a week for as long as you can manage, trying to extend each time by an hour or two, until you're comfortable with 36h. But do it regularly, just once a week (not 2 or 3 times a week and not once in 2 weeks!). It's like training. You gotta be consistent.

Nate, it sounds like you're practicing, and fasting is a practice. Making mistakes is ok. You're in a learning curve. No one becomes insta-expert. Takes effort like anything worthwhile in this life. And if you screw up, so what, no biggie, just return to healthy eating, then practice fasting again some other time. I'd stop worrying about potassium depletion, frankly. And I'd stop worrying about losing precious ripped-looking muscles, too, because the reverse happens -- you'll gain lean muscle while losing fat stores you don't want anyway. Get big muscles through exercise anyway...

[Nate-2004]

So I'm 91 hours into this fast and what they say about the 4th day is true, no more brain fog and very little hunger. My ketones were at 4.1 just an hour ago. I've slowed up on the electrolytes. I did take advantage of this invested time to take some D+Q, just a small dose of D. I may take some resveratrol later because I want to know how it works out on an extended fast like this. This is indeed considered an extended fast since it is longer than 24 hours, despite relative differences in champion fasters who've gone crazy lengths of time in which I honestly don't think I have the fat stores for... nor do I want to get rid of that much fat because I don't want to look gaunt.

 

5 hours is apparently long enough to eat up 6000 lymphocytes according to one guy.

 

I do feel some brain power today though which is what I needed. The tremor is diminished but not gone though and 4.0 on the ketone meter is apparently the recorded level at which BHB induces an anti-convulsive effect.

 

I also have been taking EGCG and adding just a 1/4 tsp of cocoa to my coffee, as well as taking ALCAR which helps with lipid transport. I think that latter bit is what got me into ketosis so fast but as you say, 48 hrs is long enough to deplete stores. 

 

Yesterday morning I weighed 176 with 20.0% body fat, today I weighed in at 174 with again, 20.0% body fat... I think I lost some muscle... Or I lost more water.

 

Practice makes perfect though, I can probably make it to the goal of 120 hours this time and try it again in a month or so, knowing electrolytes are not super necessary. Salt water does really help with cravings though and the iodine is probably good for the brain.

 

With regards to electrolytes though:

 

https://www.reddit.c...afely_you_need/

Edited by Nate-2004, 26 July 2018 - 05:10 PM.

[sthira]

Congrats, man, nice! Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like you're working through some of the doubt and anxiety. Fasting is an amazing practice to pick up and put down.

[Nate-2004]

Crap the hunger came back with a vengeance already. All I can think about is food again. Almost at the 96 mark and I got 24 hours to go after that.

Edited by Nate-2004, 26 July 2018 - 08:56 PM.

[HaplogroupW]

So I'm 91 hours into this fast and what they say about the 4th day is true, no more brain fog and very little hunger.

 

Good work Nate. Sounds like we've traded places. I remember telling you fasting itsn't that difficult in my experience. But the last few times I've tried, I've not made it past 24 hours. Experiencing that early hunger and thinking "this is my life for many more days" seemed unbearable.

 

I think in my past successes there was an element of "psyching myself up". Embracing it as an adventure. It's some kind of a mind game. Need to figure out how to get back to that zone. By the way, I haven't found Turnbuckle's red-light stimulation of adipose to be particularly helpful.
 

[sthira]

Crap the hunger came back with a vengeance already. All I can think about is food again. Almost at the 96 mark and I got 24 hours to go after that.

For me sometimes I confuse being thirsty and dehydrated with being hungry. So when I get super hungry on a fast I try drinking more water. Or occupying my body and mind. If I'm busy, I don't dwell on the fast.

96 hours is an achievement, give yourself props for getting there, and who cares if you make it to 120 hours, or whatever your goal is, because there's always next time. Fasting is freely available whenever, wherever -- no complicated regimes or expensive substances or equipment.

[xEva]

Crap the hunger came back with a vengeance already. All I can think about is food again. Almost at the 96 mark and I got 24 hours to go after that.

 

you must have triggered appetite with your supplements. That's the thing about ingesting anything during a fast. More often than not it will trigger hunger and so your fast is sabotaged. Just close your mouth, don't talk unless necessary, and drink only when thirsty. And observe yourself with interest instead of freaking out over every unpleasant sensation and panicking  omg I'm gonna die either of starvation or refeeding syndrome. And you gotta keep busy, then there is no time to probe your sensations.

[Nate-2004]

People have died from fasting. I don't think the worry, care or concern is unwarranted. I'm also trying to take advantage of the effort investment (and it is an effort to not eat I don't care if it's easy for you, I love food) and get things in that will help with the autophagy. I don't think my fast was necessarily sabotaged in terms of its purpose and function, my ketones were up past 5.2 late in the evening, but you may be right that something I took triggered hunger. I won't know unless I try it again. I felt pretty awful this morning so I broke the fast finally with some pumpkin seeds, which contain all the necessary stuff.

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 July 2018 - 12:24 PM.

[sthira]

People have died from fasting. I don't think the worry, care or concern is unwarranted.

Have people died from fasting (the voluntary act undertaken consciously to improve health) or have they died from starvation? That's a distinction.

...and it is an effort to not eat I don't care if it's easy for you, I love food...

Why are love of food and abstaining from love mutually exclusive? Can't we do both -- both love food and love fasting?

Also, fasting isn't always easy for anyone, it always presents challenges, it's a practice, bumps along the road, like learning isn't always easy for anyone, and provides both pleasures and difficulties.

Also, these words seem accurate to me:

you must have triggered appetite with your supplements. That's the thing about ingesting anything during a fast. More often than not it will trigger hunger and so your fast is sabotaged. Just close your mouth, don't talk unless necessary, and drink only when thirsty. And observe yourself with interest instead of freaking out over every unpleasant sensation and panicking omg I'm gonna die either of starvation or refeeding syndrome. And you gotta keep busy, then there is no time to probe your sensations.

Supplements, according to research, tend to be useless or eveb harmful, so take unregulated substances while fasting and you're gonna get responses, whether you notice those responses or not.

[Nate-2004]

Supplements, according to research, tend to be useless or eveb harmful, so take unregulated substances while fasting and you're gonna get responses, whether you notice those responses or not.

 

While you might be right about fasting and certain supplements, I disagree. This is a broad generalization, and regulation does nothing for quality assurance, safety and/or label accuracy. Labdoor is a good source for brand QA. Some, like EGCG and Cocoa and N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine are just fine while fasting and even assist in enabling autophagy. I may have been overly cautious this time by taking electrolytes, there are a lot of warnings out there about a loss of electrolytes including what I linked on Reddit above, but if anything triggered the hunger it was specifically either the D+Q or the Resveratrol. Either way I won't be doing those next time I try this, in addition I'll only be taking sodium as far as electrolytes. If I experience the same issue then I'll know it wasn't "supplements".

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 July 2018 - 02:42 PM.

[xEva]

Have people died from fasting (the voluntary act undertaken consciously to improve health) or have they died from starvation? That's a distinction.
 

 

that's right, death on a fast triggers headlines. and you can count those cases on your fingers. ..though I happen to know one case, about 5y ago, on curezone, that went unnoticed. And that's the only case I saw on ru and en fasting forums. The woman fasted for over 30d, with initial low weight, but most importantly, she confused the signs of a "completed fast" (-? Herbert. Shelton's term for entering the last phase of starvation, when  all disposable fat has been utilized). She interpreted the sudden burst of energy as a sign that she still had resources to go on, and she ignored and suppressed the ravenous hunger that is awaken at the onset of this phase.  And even after that, it took her about a week to die. During this time she ignored another sign, and that was sudden drop in vision, to the point that the next day she went blind, in another day or two after that she died. So, no one just suddenly drops dead  ..barring heart complications, but even in these cases, there are ample warnings and signs.

 

You really should get into routine of those once a week fasts. Go to the gym on those days and have a good workout.  With time you will learn that you feel your best and perform your best exactly in a fasted state. You will enjoy the feeling of power and lightness, when you don't run but fly,  far more than you ever enjoyed eating. That's what gets people hooked on fasting. And the high, of course. It's like tripping minus chaotic thought process. 

 

 

And by sabotaging the fast I meant that you end up breaking it before what you have planned. 

Edited by xEva, 27 July 2018 - 06:05 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I was doing 48 hour fasts per week leading up to this. Those were difficult. Hunger is the biggest problem for me, lots of contractions throughout the day and light headedness. It's not like it is for you. I also didn't break my fast, I was still going this morning. I got no protein or carbs or fats throughout till this morning at 110 hours, that's a genuine 110 hour fast. I think I did well regardless, but I am probably gonna go back to the 48 hours per week in a month or so. Gotta refeed a bit. Plenty of leucine.

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 July 2018 - 06:11 PM.