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Bioavailable copper

copper

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#1 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 11:42 PM


came across this in a FB group: https://mitosynergy.com/

Apparently a lot of Lyme and CFS sufferers are using it. I won't copy/paste all the info, the gist of it is, a bioavailable form of Cu feeds mitochondria.

I'm personally suffering from Lyme, poor methylation genes, and a ton of neurological issues. I suspect copper toxicity due to some exposure through a copper drinking vessel. According to someone in the FB group this bioavailable form can actually chelate Cu toxicity, but I can't figure out how that works.

Thoughts? Please help, I'm in rough shape...



#2 Skyguy2005

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:07 AM

Copper seems bad in elemental form. 

 

Maybe stick with things like turmeric and herbs/extracts that "know what they're doing", rather than experiment with unnatural isolates? Just lots of natural flavonoids antioxidants etc. No apologies for speechmarks thats how I perceive herbs to be.


Edited by Skyguy2005, 13 May 2017 - 01:08 AM.

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#3 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 02:39 AM

NAC crosses blood brain barrier and chelates copper...

 

http://onlinelibrary...004.02428.x/pdf

 

A low molecular weight copper chelator crosses the blood–brain barrier and attenuates experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis

 

I'd be a bit wary of taking more copper, bioavailable or not, to control copper toxicity.  

 

SAM-e is the best methylation booster I've found.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/8647346

 

S-Adenosylmethionine and methylation.

 

 


Edited by synesthesia, 13 May 2017 - 02:40 AM.

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#4 markymark

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:15 PM

I have ordered Mitosynergy in order to test it. My ceruloplasmin is always low normal, my urinary copper excretion  = low, wholeblood copper = low. Zinc intake is about 25 mg/day for long time, due to multi micronutrient supplementation stack. I will report on Mitosynergy when I have any news.

Is there another Copper (I) supplement out there, or are all the others Copper (II)?  Does anybody know the valency stage of copper in liquid chlorophyllin such als this one?  https://www.nowfoods...orophyll-liquid.

Oh found it, looks like its copper (II) :-(

https://en.wikipedia...i/Chlorophyllin

thanx for input.

MM

 

 


Edited by markymark, 16 July 2018 - 04:31 PM.

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#5 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:26 PM

I have ordered Mitosynergy in order to test it. My ceruloplasmin is always low normal, my urinary copper excretion  = low, wholebloot copper = low. Zinc intake is about 25 mg/day for long time, due to multi micronutrient supplementation stack. I will report on Mitosynergy when I have any news.

Is there another Copper (I) supplement out there, or are all the others Copper (II)?  Dies anybody know the valency stage of copper in liquid chlorophyllin such als this one?  https://www.nowfoods...orophyll-liquid.

Oh found it, looks like its copper (II) :-(

https://en.wikipedia...i/Chlorophyllin

thanx for input.

MM

 

 

 

My CP is also really low (193; range is 190-370). My hair test just showed low copper. I've heard that being copper toxic (as in toxic for exogenous copper) can make you test low for copper in tests. I've also ordered mitosynergy, hoping it helps. 

 

NAC crosses blood brain barrier and chelates copper...

 

http://onlinelibrary...004.02428.x/pdf

 

A low molecular weight copper chelator crosses the blood–brain barrier and attenuates experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis

 

I'd be a bit wary of taking more copper, bioavailable or not, to control copper toxicity.  

 

SAM-e is the best methylation booster I've found.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/8647346

 

S-Adenosylmethionine and methylation.

 

I've been taking NAC for a while, maybe two years. Not sure it makes a difference but I know it supports liver function which is key for me.

Also, I'm not sure whether I'm an over or under methlator. I have poor methyl. genetics. Some methl donors make me worse (like high dose methyl B12). 



#6 markymark

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:19 AM

@omega 3 ..

maybe you could measure your whole blood histamine level with respect to methylation.... see Walsh et al.:  http://www.walshinstitute.org/

However, i would be interested to know about the experience of others with Mitosynergy copper (I)...



#7 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:57 PM

It's so easy to get excess copper that I just don't want to supplement it.  Proceed with caution.

 

 

 

 


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#8 markymark

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:51 AM

Hello Daniel Copper,

I appreciate your word of caution regarding copper in your post #7, but please read the short PDF (link below) by George J Brewer, M.D and then get back to the issue, if you like. I am aware that the PDF is taken from the website of the manufacturer of the supplement.....

It is about the hypothesis, that copper-1 is not as "dangerous" as is copper-2. The author brings about some sound arguments and I simply want to hear some thoughts by others, or by indiviaduals who have taken this copper-1 supplement in question.

best

MM

 

Title: "Analysis of the Need for a Copper (I) Supplement Pill"

Link: https://www.mitosyne...ll_11_04_16.pdf



#9 Benko

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 03:12 PM

Markymark,

 

Read the conclusion in that PDF:

 

copper II is toxic

all supps contain copper II

therefore you need copper I supplementation.

 

However they said earlier that all food copper is copper I.  Sooo if you eat greens (e.g. spinach, etc) which most people should, I would wonder why that would not be sufficient copper (chlorophyll contains copper).  In other words, I am suspect.

 

 

 

 

 

 



#10 hav

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 02:02 AM

OP, if you are suffering from Lyme, the traditional medical treatment is 21 days of Doxycycline.  The antibiotic effect is to kill the Lyme bacteria but sometimes a repeat treatment is required.  Doxycycline also has some other beneficial effects.  Doxycycline is a chelator which would help clear the copper you mention, but at the expense of the antibiotic effect.  In which case it might pay to take a chelator like IP6 first, to clear metals from the bloodstream and digestive system, then take the Doxycycline an hour later to get the full antibiotic effect. Doxycycline is also an NNP blocker which helps with the inflammation Lyme triggers in joints and connective tissue.  So if you've retested and the bacteria is all gone, you might consider supplements that are mere chelators and NNP inhibitors if you are still experiencing the discomfort initiated by Lyme.  If copper levels are your only concern, IP6 alone should help.  If it's copper and residual inflammation, try Chinese Skullcap aka Baicalin.... Violet Herbs makes a pretty potent one.

 

Howard


Edited by hav, 23 July 2018 - 02:03 AM.

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#11 markymark

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 03:49 PM

Hello Benko and Hav,

 

well you got me a bit wrong.

 

@Benko,

I have read the article "Analysis of the Need for a Copper (I) Supplement Pill" 3 or 4-times and lots of copper literature at pubmed and elsewhere too. Please see line one in this thread. It is about a copper-I supplement Mitosynergy.

 

There are individuals constitutionally displaying:

1. low or low-normal serum ceruloplasmin

2. low or low-normal serum and blood copper (without a too high intake of supplemental zinc or manganese being the reason for that)

3. low urine copper (which rules out Wilsons's disease)

4. these individuals tend to report about: cold hands and feet, and occasionally hypothyroidism and other symptoms

5. difficulties to increase ceruloplasmin and copper status by taking "normal" copper-II supplements (as chelate, gluconate etc.) or boron and magnesium.

 

BTW: plant-based chlorophyll contains magnesium, not copper. It is the semi-synthetic chlorophyllin (https://www.nowfoods...orophyll-liquid) which contains copper. To my regret the copper in chlorophyllin is also copper-II.

 

My Point is: It could be, or it is suggested that individuals who display the above low copper phenotype might benefit (collagen synthesis, thyroid blood vessels, brain) from (small?) amounts of a copper-I supplement. And I simply want to find out about possible experiences of people (having the same phenotyle or not) with Mitosynergy. Needless to say, I am not on the payroll of the company which produces it. Other than food-based copper-(I) and Mitosynergy, I am not aware of another copper-I supplement. Or rather, what is the valency stage of copper in colloidal copper?

 

It is clear to me that there are many (or the majority of) people having problems with elevated copper (and free copper) due to methylation issues, zinc deficiency etc, but let us, the low-copper individuals, have our own little thead ;-).

best

MM

 

 


Edited by markymark, 23 July 2018 - 03:51 PM.

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#12 livingguy

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 06:45 PM

Well Mark here is another individual with the low copper phenotype mentioned in your post, low ceruloplasmon, low urinary copper, negative for Wilson's disease gene test, low serum copper and copper deficiency symptoms. Copper supplements help but start to raise ALT by adversely affecting the liver. I have never tried the product you refer to in your post.

#13 markymark

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:17 AM

@livingguy,

wellcome to the club. Well, a rise in liver-ALT trough copper supplements....? I would have not assumed that. Did you rechallange and ALT went up again? I stopped copper-II supplementation since it did not increase coeruloplasmin and whole blood / serum copper.

 

However, I am now taking one cps. Mitosynergy per day, which is only 0.5 mg elemental copper as copper-niacin (cunermuspir) for 5 days. I think, that the "copper-I is better than copper-II hypothesis" is well-founded. And I am curious, what research on this will bring about in the future. Mitosynergy is not cheap, I know, but I give it a try.

http://www.bioavailablecopper.eu/

 

 


Edited by markymark, 25 July 2018 - 07:18 AM.


#14 pamojja

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:01 AM

However, I am now taking one cps. Mitosynergy per day, which is only 0.5 mg elemental copper as copper-niacin (cunermuspir) for 5 days. I think, that the "copper-I is better than copper-II hypothesis" is well-founded. And I am curious, what research on this will bring about in the future. Mitosynergy is not cheap, I know, but I give it a try.

http://www.bioavailablecopper.eu/

 

If food-based copper is copper-I, and there is only 0.5 mg of elemental copper for a high prize in Mitosynergy, why not try to get more copper through diet first - which is relatively easy:

 

http://nutritiondata...00000000-w.html

 

For example only 3.33 g of beef, 6.25 g of molluscs, 10 g of shitake, 12.5 g of sesame or cocoa powder and 25 g of cashew would all contain 0.5 g of elemental copper.
 

When calculating my copper intake from diet (plant based) some years ago it showed at 4.2 mg of copper per day.


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#15 markymark

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:24 AM

@pamojja,

thx very good points. I honestly don't know, but one might assume that the Cu-I-niacin in the supplement is superior over the food-based Cu-I i terms of absorption.

 

The best would be, if good-quality clinical trials with Cunermuspir are being performed. Goals: how do low ceruloplasmin levels behave?, cognitive and exercise performance, change in fatigue symptoms, effect on thyroid, etc.

 

 



#16 livingguy

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 03:58 AM

Good points Pamojja and Mark, I think proof of the pudding is in the eating, we have to experiment with all these options and test the serum copper and ceruloplasmon levels. As for ALT I have rechallenged and it did go up but I take loads of supplements so to be more certain I would do one more round of rechallenging and testing. If you search enough you will find that copper supplementation in high doses (I was taking 8mg in addition to copper from food sources) can raise ALT in some. Usually in the ones with Wilson's disease. My genetic testing showed that I don't have Wilson's disease variant and my urinary copper was low.

At lower doses of supplementation (I have tried 2-3mg supplements) my serum copper levels remain low.

#17 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 03:54 PM

My hair test showed low copper, and my ceruloplasmin is low also. I think I have copper toxicity causing a deficiency in bioavailable copper. Am trying to detox now with nanolyzed zeolite and liver/bile support. Started Mitosynergy powder yesterday (loose powder comes with a 6mg scoop, each 6mg contains 1mg of copper). Wish me luck. 



#18 livingguy

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 05:50 PM

Why don't you test serum copper which is a more mainstream test than the hair test.

#19 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 12:12 AM

Why don't you test serum copper which is a more mainstream test than the hair test.

I did, sorry I forgot to mention. Copper serum/plasma: 11.5 umoL/L (range: 10.7 - 22.3). So, low-ish again. 



#20 livingguy

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 03:53 PM

@Omega you mention "Copper toxicity causing a deficiency in bio available copper". With due respect I am sceptical that there is such a thing. Can you show me anything in scientific literature that mentions such a thing please.
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#21 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 12:54 AM

@Omega you mention "Copper toxicity causing a deficiency in bio available copper". With due respect I am sceptical that there is such a thing. Can you show me anything in scientific literature that mentions such a thing please.

https://coppertoxic.com/testing

 

In terms of copper - blood's homeostatic nature will ensure that excess copper is quickly removed from the blood, but this doesn't mean it magically disappears from the body. If a patient is being exposed to an immediate source of copper, such as a copper IUD, chances are the blood may show an elevated level.  But once that IUD is removed (or the immediate source of exposure taken away), the blood will naturally return to normal, even though loads of toxic bio-unavailable copper is now stored in the body's tissues. In fact, we might even see the blood serum level of copper being low in a copper toxic person. If copper has accumulated and is tightly stored in the tissues, and adrenal function is too weak to mobilize that stored copper, it's not going to show up in the blood! 

 

With this background, why on earth are so many practitioners still so reliant on the mineral level that shows up in the blood, without ever stopping to examine the tissue level? As a direct result of such practice, misdiagnosis runs rampant, and the lack of awareness to copper toxicity simply persists.  Not only is such tunnel vision ignorant and irresponsible, but also dangerous, and as long as people continue to focus on serum blood results, the mass confusion surrounding this epidemic will only continue.  There are so-called 'experts' online who are so focused on blood test results, and their trusting audience then spends a fortune in time and money getting all the suggested blood panel lab tests - serum this, plasma that, ceruloplasmin - only to discover even more confusion as they try to interpret the results, once again ignoring that copper excess is stored in tissue, not blood. Blood is certainly invaluable for many markers of disease and health conditions, but NOT when it comes to measuring mineral status! At best, if the timing is right, a blood test may catch copper toxicity, but certainly far more often than not it will miss it. Copper toxic individuals very often receive blood tests results that show 'normal' and are falsely diagnosed as 'healthy'.  As Dr. Eck points out, "If you have high levels of a certain mineral, like copper, held tightly in storage, why on earth would you expect the copper to show up in the blood - unless it is being released?!"

 

Copper needs to be bound to a transporter protein (either ceruloplasmin or metallothionein), otherwise it becomes bio-unavailable, does not enter the cell where it needs to be, and instead gets accumulated in a bio-unavailable form in the body's tissues. The problem again with the standard blood serum testing procedure is that it ignores not only the accumulated bio-unavailable copper stored in the tissues, it also ignores the copper content within the cells.  The following quote is by Dr. Carolyn Dean, MD, ND speaking about the inadequacy of serum tests. While in the quote she is referring to magnesium, the same is very much true for copper:   "A serum test for magnesium is actually worse than ineffective, because a test result that is within normal limits lends a false sense of security about the status of the mineral in the body. It also explains why doctors don't recognize magnesium deficiency; they assume serum magnesium levels are an accurate measure of all the magnesium in the body."

 

A urine test on the other hand shows what the body is excreting. When the body is excreting copper, then elevated copper levels will show on a urine test. If the urinalysis is performed during this time of excretion, it will catch the copper toxicity problem, and it can also be useful for showing how much copper (or any mineral/metal) is being excreted.  But once again, what is being excreted is very different from what is being STORED.  The stored copper is NOT being excreted, rather it is tightly stored in various organs and soft tissue of the body, particular the liver and the brain, yet won't show up in a urine test.  Even urine challenge testing usually only reaches superficial areas of toxicities and can miss much of the tightly stored copper. Not only that, but chelation can also stir up and redeposit toxins in vital organs, while also being excessively hard on the kidneys (since this method forces toxins out through the kidneys rather than through the bile). 

 

he central issue of copper toxicity is stored copper in the cells and tissues. If we want to know the stored tissue level, blood tests and urine tests certainly aren't the answer (though they may in some cases be useful as a secondary source of information if you suspect copper toxicity or are on a detoxing program). Of course one could do a liver biopsy which would provide excellent evidence of tissue levels, however being both expensive and invasive it is not a viable or realistic option for most.   Hair, however, being a form of soft tissue, provides a great window into what is happening inside the body at the tissue level.  

 

As copper passes through the blood, either to be utilized, excreted, or stored, it gets picked up in the hair follicle. An inch or so of hair taken closest to the scalp provides approximately a three-month window into the mineral and metal status of the body. As such, it is not prone to the hour to hour fluctuations that affect the blood reading. More importantly, the hair reflects the tissue level, which is what we want to know in terms of our minerals status.  Another major advantage that Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis offers is data on the key ratios between mineral pairs as determined through the exhaustive research in the 1970s and 80s by Dr Eck and Dr Watts, the pioneers of the Science of Nutritional Balancing. When it comes to rebalancing minerals, or assessing mineral status, looking at any one mineral level in isolation explains very little.  Take magnesium, for example. If the hair chart shows high magnesium, is it really high? Not necessarily, as stress depletes magnesium and most people are magnesium deficient.  However, if we look at the ratio between sodium and potassium, known as the stress ratio, and we see a high Na/K ratio, we know that the individual is under a lot of stress, and that the high magnesium level is representing an intracellular loss of magnesium which shows up high in the hair but indicates magnesium deficiency.  This is just one example of the importance of looking at the bigger picture, and not just one mineral level in isolation.  The same can be said for assessing the copper status. A copper toxic individual can have either high (overt) copper showing up in the hair, or he may have low (hidden / latent) copper. Hidden copper toxicity occurs when high levels of copper are stored in various body tissues but have not yet been released to show up in the hair.  Therefore, we MUST look at what is happening with the other mineral levels and ratios in order to determine copper status...and the correction of copper.  For example, when copper appears low in the HTMA, we can look at other key indicators such as a high calcium, low potassium, a Ca/K ratio over 10, low molybdenum (<.003), low Na/K, and a number of other levels and ratios to understand what may be happening with copper.   This underscores the importance of the HTMA practitioner understanding these various markers, otherwise they could easily look at the low copper level and suggest the client needs to consume more, when in fact doing so would only compound  the problem.


Edited by Omega 3 Snake Oil, 29 July 2018 - 12:56 AM.

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#22 ironfistx

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 06:34 PM

Then we should not take copper supplements?


Edited by ironfistx, 03 August 2018 - 06:37 PM.


#23 pamojja

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 07:21 PM

Then we should not take copper supplements?

 

Rather you need a good reason for supplementing copper, than the other way round. Avoid multies with copper, Though up to 1 mg most often doesn't do much harm, since we usually get already multiples from diet. Only 5% of the US adult population are estimated being short of the estimated average requirement.
 


Edited by pamojja, 03 August 2018 - 07:26 PM.


#24 ironfistx

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 04:49 AM

I guess that the reason I keep getting tendinitis is low copper. Previously it stated while taking zinc supplements that I learned reduces copper with n acetyl cysteine which I not too long ago through this site learned lowers copper. Apparently this is the same process that resveratrol produces tendinitis.

Then later, I was taking zinc again and got it again.

Now if take zinc I take balanced zinc which is a compressed amount and includes copper.

#25 pamojja

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 11:01 AM

I guess that the reason I keep getting tendinitis is low copper. Previously it stated while taking zinc supplements that I learned reduces copper with n acetyl cysteine which I not too long ago through this site learned lowers copper. Apparently this is the same process that resveratrol produces tendinitis.

Then later, I was taking zinc again and got it again.

Now if take zinc I take balanced zinc which is a compressed amount and includes copper.

 

Just make sure you test serum copper and zinc at least once. If you can talk your physician into, including ceruloplasmin to calculate free copper.

 

In my case had bottom of low normal zinc and medium normal zinc. And a completely off copper to zinc ratio. Wanted to increase zinc, therefore gradually increased dose, with no resulting change in labs. Above 60 mg/d of zinc headaches started, which were helped with 1 mg/d of copper only. Next copper shoot above normal and zinc below, therefore ceased copper intake again. At the moment I'm at 70 mg/d of zinc, but now I don't get headaches anymore. All this occurred in the time of 10 years, but labs are again where I started.

 

I take many more copper antagonists like NAC. Obviously they all failed in my case.
 



#26 KBAnthis

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:18 PM

Has anyone found lower priced sources of Copper 1? I emailed Albion in order to ask if there copper glycinate chelate is copper 1 and am waiting for a response. I have been curious about Copper supplementation and came across this post, and am glad I have.  I contacted Garden of Life about raw one for men and there response was the copper is in a whole food form. I am not sure what this answer meant but assume it is type 1, either way, I am soon stopping a multivitamin and switching to minerals and water soluble vitamin supplementation only. I seem to get plenty of fat soluble vitamins from whole food sources and since minerals are in variable amounts in any given soil while factoring in overproduction from farmland soil seemingly from my perspective it is smartest to take mineral supplementation. 


Edited by KBAnthis, 13 August 2018 - 01:32 PM.


#27 KBAnthis

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:56 AM

Well as it turns out like all copper amino acid chealtes it is in fact copper 2. I do not know about garden of life as they did not give me a definitive answer. I will email them shortly. Does anyone know if beef liver contains copper 1? It seems like it should.



#28 KBAnthis

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:55 AM

Well unless the animal flesh is raw supposedly it is copper 2. I have recently switched from cooked beef liver to freeze-dried beef liver before finding this out so the transition to freeze-dried liver powder  is good in light of the new found knowledge. What is anyones thoughts on the copper 1 from mitosynergy. I am considering ordering some. I would like at least one opinion before deciding on ordering, it looks really promising. It is not cheap though. Seeing as I consumed freeze dried beef liver I wonder if it is a good idea. How did the powder work out for the original poster? That is what I am considering ordering.



#29 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 05:41 PM

Has anyone found lower priced sources of Copper 1? I emailed Albion in order to ask if there copper glycinate chelate is copper 1 and am waiting for a response. I have been curious about Copper supplementation and came across this post, and am glad I have.  I contacted Garden of Life about raw one for men and there response was the copper is in a whole food form. I am not sure what this answer meant but assume it is type 1, either way, I am soon stopping a multivitamin and switching to minerals and water soluble vitamin supplementation only. I seem to get plenty of fat soluble vitamins from whole food sources and since minerals are in variable amounts in any given soil while factoring in overproduction from farmland soil seemingly from my perspective it is smartest to take mineral supplementation. 

If you order 1g of loose powder, it'll last a very long time (recommended dose = one 6mg scoop per day, containing 1mg copper).

I've tried the loose powder. I feel like my brain is getting zapped, like there's a pinball machine inside my head. Also my neuromuscular problems go crazy (weakened breathing esp.). 

I'm sure my neuro problems are copper related. I think I am toxic for exogenous copper and this makes me low in bioavailable copper. I get worse from anything that chelates copper. 

Any thoughts on my reaction to mitosynergy?



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#30 KBAnthis

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:39 AM

I bought a gram and am hoping it will last atleast 5 months. I asked for financial aid and received it. I am liking it. There is a noticeable difference in energy. It has only been a few days. I noticed a difference immediately. I have more energy which is noticeable. It is not a drug or similar to coffee, but a deep feeling of correctness in energy. I will take it from now on and do not take any other copper supplement. I do eat about an ounce of cooked beef liver a day, and was doing two a day but am going to switch to one. I have been trying freeze dried liver since any copper 1 in liver supposedly turns to copper 2 when cooked. It has been a lot more expensive compared to cooked liver and I am switching back mainly due to cost. The company I tried was nutricology which said 2.5 grams serving contained about 1.4 micrograms of b12. Seeing as I can get around 15 mcg per ounce of liver I have chosen to go back to fresh cooked.







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