24 replies to this topic

[brosci]

I recently did a hormone panel and saw my sex hormone binding globulin was at 76 nmol/L (in the RED) on a reference scale of 10 - 57.  The highest max level on this chart was 80 nmol/L, where I seem to be in the highest tier.  This effectively drops my calc free T down to 7 ng/dL, again in the RED below the normal reference range low's, while total T was in the clear in the mid 600's.  Ultimately, I believe this is a side effect of my low-carb diet + IF regimen, as my IGF1 was also down to 76 ng/mL and TSH was up around 2.755 ulU/mL -- I've read low IGF1 correlates with high SHBG.  The low IGF1 is a little odd, as I'm not very calorically restricted, I lift heavy weights, and my diet has plenty of meat, methionine, and often supplemental Whey + BCAAs.

 

In reading around, I saw Boron supplementation and Zinc supplementation listed as possible ways to counter-act the high SHBG (short of eating more carbs and more calories more often.)  I also read that Boron might increase serum copper, with copper and zinc possibly associated with Alzheimer's / cognitive issues later in life (I carry the apoE4 gene, so I'm generally more concerned with cognitive + cardiovascular issues than optimal free T.)

 

Would it make sense to supplement something like 3mg of boron (glycinate?) on workout days (2-3x/wk), then do L-OptiZinc (or Zn Carnosine?) @ 30mg once a week (with the boron?)  Or, am I likely better off without these with overall health in mind?  I was also reading that stinging nettle root extract might be useful.

Edited by brosci, 28 May 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Boron and zinc only seems to work for a week and then it doesn't work anymore.

[pamojja]

Boron and zinc only seems to work for a week and then it doesn't work anymore.

 

Emphasis on 'seems'. How likely is it that 1 week of supplementing boron and zinc would increase levels any? For example, I supplemented 8 year in average 44 mg of zinc per day. Serum levels went down from 76 to 75 µg/dl (73 - 127 normal range) in 8 long years.

 

How likely you did take 2 SHBG tests in just 2 weeks?

 

P&P, as always, your only wildly guessing on assumptions without any reality behind, and no objective testing.
 

 

Would it make sense to supplement something like 3mg of boron (glycinate?) on workout days (2-3x/wk), then do L-OptiZinc (or Zn Carnosine?) @ 30mg once a week (with the boron?)

 

What are your serum levels?

Edited by pamojja, 28 May 2017 - 07:27 PM.

[brosci]

What are your serum levels?

 

I've never checked.  I was thinking about the SpectraCell Micronutrient test to look at Copper / Zinc / D3, but it's pretty expensive @ $350.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

As usual you are posting garbage. Zinc has been tested and confirmed to raise testosterone independent of a zinc deficiency, and I can feel it. But after a week I no longer a feel a positive effect and the signs of androgenicity (pimples in face) go away. Same with boron.

[pamojja]

 

What are your serum levels?

 
I've never checked.  I was thinking about the SpectraCell Micronutrient test to look at Copper / Zinc / D3, but it's pretty expensive @ $350.

 
Strange prices. In a nearby private lab I pay € 2,76 for serum and 5,25 for whole blood zinc. Whole blood copper is 2,76 only. 25(OH)D3 serum is 27,98. So maybe worthwhile to shop around for better prices? In my case my GP does test for all 3 in serum once in a while. An other reasonable priced option is hair tissue mineral analysis, available for about €60,-. It gives you values for a few dozen important minerals and toxic elements. Though not all are very reliable, but that isn't that much different with serum tests either. The cheapest option, of course, would be to run a trial of zinc and boron, pretty harmless at the doses you intent, and just test SHBG after 2-3 months again.

 

However, as already said I used 44 mg of zinc, about 6 mg of boron and about 270 mg of nettle root extract during last 8 years. During that time my free testosterone, except the last test, was always below normal, total T close to low end of normal (again except the last test). Estrogen went from high to not detectable to high again. And SHBG only got excessive with the recent normalization of testosterone. Other then P&P who doesn't tests but feels it all after a couple of days and thereby concludes supplements are crap, I couldn't feel my various hormone levels at all. And would have many times guessed them completely wrong.

 

We all come with different nutrient levels, metabolism, preconditions - where all this factors could later change again, so it is always wise not to rely too much on hearsay, but by carefully experimenting and testing.

Edited by pamojja, 28 May 2017 - 09:23 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

What on God's green earth are you even arguing? I am saying it stops working after a week, you are saying that taking it for years (which I doubt you did consistently) did not increase androgens. So what the hell is the issue?

Unlike you I have actually taken illegal androgen hormones so I know how they feel. And you CAN feel androgenic hormones and things that increase them; and you are irrational in rejecting your experiences over the experiences of others, with few exceptions. Read philosophy of science and philosophy of mind for an understanding of when it is rational and when it is irrational to reject your own experiences.

[pamojja]

I am saying it stops working after a week, you are saying that taking it for years (which I doubt you did consistently) did not increase androgens. So what the hell is the issue?

 

The issue is we all have different nutrient status, metabolism, precondition, diet etc. Therefore no one experience can be generalized, but hinds can be taken. The more cofactors are known, the more hinds. Never generalized advise.

 

By the way, you ask me to read philosophy - while you obviously aren't even able to read my post. As I clearly stated that free and total testosterone normalized with my last blood test results. You can doubt as much as you want, but I do enter all my supplements used and lab tests in a spreadsheet. The amounts of supplements of course varied, usually always starting at the lowest possible dose increasing gradually over years to find the optimal dose (not by feeling, but by comparing to laboratory results), so the amounts taken stated here are of course only average per day for the last 8 years.

 

Unlike you I have actually taken illegal androgen hormones so I know how they feel. And you CAN feel androgenic hormones and things that increase them; and you are irrational in rejecting your experiences over the experiences of others, with few exceptions.

 

No doubt, though I never tried, I'm sure even me would feel 'illegal androgens'. But that doesn't mean you know even a bid how they affected your serum hormone levels (free and total testosterone, estrogens, SHBG etc.) - because you simply never tested them like I do regularly.

 

You only guessed that zinc and boron would lower SHBG for the first week only, but you never tested.

Edited by pamojja, 29 May 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[aconita]

Supplements can only kind of normalize testosterone levels (never reaching supra physiological values) and only when they compensate for a deficiency, onion juice for example can boost testosterone 300%...but only in  hypogonadism suffering subjects (very low testosterone), one can drink tons of onion juice without testosterone even blinking if levels are already normal.

 

It is almost impossible to feel low from high testosterone levels if they are within normal range, injecting exogenous testosterone in supra physiological amounts is a whole different game.

 

One does supplement zinc and boron in order to make sure there is no deficiency there (just in case) and that not only for optimal testosterone levels, of course they kind of "stop working after 1 week", if there was a deficiency there after one week

levels are likely back to normal and there is no further improvement since more doesn't mean better here.

 

What some tend to forget is that supplements by definition are intended to compensate for deficiencies, if there is no deficiency that supplement is just useless at best, deficiency can be for many reasons (nutrition, age, pathology, etc...).

[brosci]

So, it sounds like Boron + Zinc supplementation is largely a waste of time for lowering my extraordinarily high SHBG to raise the very low free T in the context of adequate total T.  That is, unless I have a nutritional deficiency for these elements (there doesn't seem to be a test for Boron.)

 

I found a "Serum Zinc" test for $26 through LEF, a "Copper Test" (?) for $36 bucks, and a D3 test for $30.  For $100, would this tell me anything?  I was reading the minerals might be measured better in red blood cells.  I see Genova has an Elemental RBC test for $335... but I don't know if I'm $300+ interested in seeing what they come up with.

[aconita]

Thing is minerals are difficult and unreliable to test, plus what is in the blood doesn't necessarily reflects what is in tissues where actually does matter most.

 

Therefore I wouldn't say that supplementing zinc and boron is useless, it would be in the absence of a deficiency but that deficiency is hard to test, in practice supplementing zinc and boron is a good idea since those are not very abundant in most foods (just in case), over supplementing (taking more than what is recommended) in the hope of getting better or more evident results is totally useless.

 

Spending serious money for those kind of tests is not smart because of the above reasons, it doesn't matter how accurate they promise you to be, the results will be just vague indications with little practical value anyway.

 

You'll better off supplementing what might be deficient (therefore causing the issue) and after a while test again for the issue itself (in your case SHBG/free testosterone) in order to check if that was actually the cause, it would be cheaper and by far more reliable.

[brosci]

Thing is minerals are difficult and unreliable to test, plus what is in the blood doesn't necessarily reflects what is in tissues where actually does matter most.

 

Therefore I wouldn't say that supplementing zinc and boron is useless, it would be in the absence of a deficiency but that deficiency is hard to test, in practice supplementing zinc and boron is a good idea since those are not very abundant in most foods (just in case), over supplementing (taking more than what is recommended) in the hope of getting better or more evident results is totally useless.

 

Spending serious money for those kind of tests is not smart because of the above reasons, it doesn't matter how accurate they promise you to be, the results will be just vague indications with little practical value anyway.

 

You'll better off supplementing what might be deficient (therefore causing the issue) and after a while test again for the issue itself (in your case SHBG/free testosterone) in order to check if that was actually the cause, it would be cheaper and by far more reliable.

For a prophylactic dosing schedule, I wonder if Boron Glycinate @ 3mg ~2x/wk (post-workout with the insulin spike from carbs, or before sleep?) would be ideal, coupled with maybe L-OptiZinc @ 30mg 1x/wk (without supplemental copper?)... or maybe Zinc Carnosine @ 16mg zinc post-workout... or pre-workout together with the boron?

 

Are there any ideal forms or timing strategies with exercise, insulin, and sex hormones in mind?  Or cofactors (eg. I supplement B9, B12, and TMG, but I don't supplement B6.  I have read that B6 is used with Zinc metabolism with popular stacks like ZMA) ?

 

I tend to think of these sorts of articles when supplementing minerals:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3010690/

 

http://www.longevine...f-aging-part-2/

 

In a lot of ways, aging seems like a process of over-mineralization and supplementals like Resveratrol + Curcumin seem to budge things in a better direction while acting as weak chelators.

Edited by brosci, 30 May 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[pamojja]

In a lot of ways, aging seems like a process of over-mineralization and supplementals like Resveratrol + Curcumin seem to budge things in a better direction while acting as weak chelators.

 
Honestly, for me with a serious age-related health issue all this is just too much assumption in to the blue..
 
I went by testing and found I'm severely depleted in almost all essential vitamins and minerals. Repleting them carefully - though in many case not fully successful yet - earned me a reversal of a 60% walking disability due to that health issue (PAD).
 
All the money I spent on supplements, blood and hair tissue mineral testing hasn't been a waste. But guess one only realizes that before it's almost too late, and leisure time for guessing finally over.

 

 

Maybe start with an inexpensive HTMA, which gives an overview of most minerals and toxic elements? Of course, just as serum levels of routinely tested electrolytes often don't tell much alone, also some minerals on HTMAs are notoriously unreliable, and it therefore takes some self-education to learn how to interpret them.

 

 

Hair mineral analysis can be a useful laboratory test although it’s value depends on it’s interpretation. The following are quotes by Dr. William Walsh, Director of Research and Executive Director at The Pfeiffer Treatment Centre, on his view on hair analysis interpretation.

• “Hair analysis ALONE is a very poor way to assess copper status. I say this after (a) evaluating more than 100,000 hair analyses, (b) developing the first high-quality hair standards (loaned to NIH and other researchers), and © performing numerous double-blind, controlled experiments involving hair chemistries. Findings of high Cu levels in hair are compromised by the many external sources of Cu which cannot be completely removed by washing. Low levels of Cu in hair and/or blood often are coincident with dangerous overloads of Cu in liver. Hair Cu values can provide information of clinical significance, but by itself is not clinically decisive.”
• “Elevated hair magnesium nearly always means magnesium depletion in the body, presumably because of increased Mg excretion. The same is true of hair Calcium and hair Zinc.”
• “An interesting aspect of Mn is that most persons with elevated Mn in hair have low Mn levels in blood. There are quite a few persons who believe that high Mn in the hair of behavior-disordered persons indicates a Mn overload. The opposite is true, most of the time.”
• “Aluminum levels in hair present a challenging cross-contamination problem, since there is Al everywhere in our environment. I recommend a repeat hair test be done to insure that the Al result is real (unless you've already done this). I've evaluated more than 30,000 hair analyses and in my experience high aluminum levels usually cannot be replicated with repeat testing.”
• “Uranium is an analysis that I have very little confidence in. I've done quality assurance testing of hair analysis labs and find some of the elements assays to be highly reliable and others to be nearly worthless. Uranium is NOT one of the good elements. Despite this, reported uranium levels usually are quite high in mining areas.... so there appears to be some QUALITATIVE significance to the uranium analysis..... but little QUANTITATIVE significance. Overall, I do not find the uranium assay to be of clinical value.”
• “The "good" elements are Ca, Mg, Zn, Cu, Na, K, S, Mn, Fe, Pb, Se, P, and Cd.”
• “Others that are decent (qualitative relevance) are Sb, As, Hg, Cr, Mo, Li, Ba, Ni, Sr, and Co.”
• “Terrible assays (according to my tests) are: Al, Be, Bi, Pt, Th, Tl, U, Ag, Sn, Ti, V, B, I, Ge, Rb, and Zr.”
• “We've obtained hair Zn and plasma Zn levels (simultaneously) about 40,000 times. Low hair Zn correlates beautifully with low plasma levels. However, very elevated Zn in hair nearly always means Zn deficiency and low plasma Zn levels. Most of the time this involves a pyrrole disorder which results in very high Zn excretion in urine (and hair). In a healthy person without a metal-metabolism problem, only about 4% of excreted Zn leaves through the kidneys.”
• “I've done hair analysis proficiency testing for more than 25 years. I've never yet found a lab that can reliably assay barium in hair. The same is true of more than 10 other elements routinely reported by the hair analysis labs. Strontium has a history of strange results since typical levels are close to the detection limit for most labs.”
• “Cu/Zn ratios in hair are very helpful in ADHD and behavior disorders..... but far less useful in ASD, depression, and schizophrenia.”
• “I have no idea why the elevated Na & K levels in hair are associated with genius.”

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 30 May 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Zinc and boron works INDEPENDENTLY of a deficiency (read the studies), but they still cease to exert their beneficial effects after approx. 1 week, just like glycine for sleep and a thousand other supplements.

 

All the other users here are blabbering on about the most irrelevant or ill informed thinking. So read my posts instead.

 

Your testosterone issues have no relevance to mineral deficiencies or excessive minerals. High SHBG could be caused by LOW igf-1, so gain fat mass (fat mass increases igf-1) and eat a fatty diet.

Don't listen to the idiots who say that this is bad for testosterone, it's NOT. They're ill informed TV airheads who watch too much pop. crap.

 

SHBG binds sex hormones including estrogen and dht. It is possible to lower SHBG in some cases if you simply lower ONE of the hormones it binds, like estrogen, and in turn this will lead to more free of everything else including testosterone.

Just note that you will feel very bad if your estrogen gets low and the libido boosting effects of lowering estrogen usually takes a week to kick in but then you feel horny and if your estrogen is too low your sleep quality and ability goes down the shitter.

 

Notice how you FEEL right now. Do you feel more tired and have a lower libido than before? If not, chances are you've always had high SHBG.... because it's often genetic and you can often find your genetic level if you test your blood frequently enough.

My genetic total testosterone is around 600ng/dl. It doesn't budge around much no matter what I do.

[brosci]

I was thinking about the hair mineral analysis (which is probably an easy test for most people), although I've got a shaved head... so it ends up being a sort of PITA in practice, where I'd have to grow out the male-pattern-baldness back of my head to get a decent sample.

 

If Zinc / Boron can raise free T for a week, does that mean I can cycle it in some way (supplement every other weekend?)

 

Right now, I eat a pretty high fat diet, averaging around 175g/d, my protein intake is up around 120g/d, and total carbs are up around 130g/d (~200g/d on workout days.)  I was reading that high protein generally raises IGF1, but this doesn't seem to be the case for me.  Perhaps I could eat more calories and more carbs more often and put on some body fat, but this doesn't sounds great for my other goals.  Overall, this diet feels most excellent.

Edited by brosci, 30 May 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[pamojja]

I was thinking about the hair mineral analysis (which is probably an easy test for most people), although I've got a shaved head... so it ends up being a sort of PITA in practice, where I'd have to grow out the male-pattern-baldness back of my head to get a decent sample.

 

You could use pubic hair instead.
 

[brosci]

 

I was thinking about the hair mineral analysis (which is probably an easy test for most people), although I've got a shaved head... so it ends up being a sort of PITA in practice, where I'd have to grow out the male-pattern-baldness back of my head to get a decent sample.

 

You could use pubic hair instead.

I've read that the mineral levels tend to vary (higher) in pubic hair... so it takes a sketchy sort of hard to interpret test and makes it even more difficult to interpret.

 

For these goals of lower SHBG, higher free T, better thyroid function, would it make sense to avoid Flax seed (very high in polyphenols) + Soy products, or are these less likely to affect my numbers while promoting cardiovascular health?

[PeaceAndProsperity]

No cycling zinc and boron doesn't seem to work. It's possible that boron works by progesterone metabolism so adding progesterone increases boron's effects and duration.

[brosci]

No cycling zinc and boron doesn't seem to work. It's possible that boron works by progesterone metabolism so adding progesterone increases boron's effects and duration.

Very interesting -- my progesterone was listed at < 0.2 ng/mL (RED), where their normal reference range was a minimum value of 0.27 up to 0.9 (avg. 0.59)

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I tried pregnenolone with boron and it made no difference. Try getting progesterone prescribed and take it with boron and report back.

[brosci]

I picked these up today:

 

https://megafood.com/store/en/zinc/

 

http://bluebonnetnut...etable_Capsules

 

Any thoughts on how this form of Yeast-bound Zinc compares against Zinc Oxide, Zinc L-monomethionine, or Zinc Carnosine?  If boron might increase serum copper (particularly when taken with a copper supplement), would it have the same effect with zinc?

 

I'm thinking I'll do something like heavy resistance exercise on Sat / Wed then increase carb consumption on these days and stack the boron with the zinc with the carbs.  Prophylactically, I'm going to add back in 2000iu of D3 with breakfast (maybe with 100mcg of MK7 with the D3 in the morning rather than before bed?), since I might actually be getting less sunlight now that it's starting to get very hot outside -- I'm thinking in the winter I'll run the SpectraCell Micronutrient panel and that'll check Zinc, Copper, D3... then I might stack a hair panel on top if I take the initiative to let my hair grow out for a month or so.

 

I was also thinking about stacking this on top of resistance exercise days in place of my usual BCAA supplement (the main thing that bugs me about this is the carbs from maltodextrin):

 

https://www.onnit.co...us-performance/

 

Lastly, I'm going to drop the Flaxseed from my diet and switch out Soy Sauce & Tamari with Coconut Aminos.

 

I was reading that boron might increase the need for B2 in the diet or increase sulfur metabolism -- I currently only supplement b9, b12, and TMG (I wonder if it would be worthwhile to tack on a twice weekly B1, B2, B6, and Molybdenum with the boron + zinc?)

 

I tend to be more concerned with avoiding potential long-term negatives (high zinc implicated in alzheimer's and boron might increase copper and calcification?) than with maximizing short term positives.  Does this sound like an ideal supplement regimen / plan with safety > performance & long term health in mind?

Edited by brosci, 31 May 2017 - 07:46 PM.

[pamojja]

 

 

I was thinking about the hair mineral analysis (which is probably an easy test for most people), although I've got a shaved head... so it ends up being a sort of PITA in practice, where I'd have to grow out the male-pattern-baldness back of my head to get a decent sample.

 

You could use pubic hair instead.

 

I've read that the mineral levels tend to vary (higher) in pubic hair... so it takes a sketchy sort of hard to interpret test and makes it even more difficult to interpret.

 

Would contact the HTMA lab itself, for how much experience they have with pubic hair or even nail clippings, and how well their reference ranges have been validated. Again, many serum, RBC or tissue tests are difficult to interpret, at times. But they are the only indications short of guessing. In comparison, using measurements like cron-o-meter is bound to be off most of the times. Still good enough for getting a fist impression of your diet.
 

[pamojja]

I tend to be more concerned with avoiding potential long-term negatives (high zinc implicated in alzheimer's and boron might increase copper and calcification?) than with maximizing short term positives.  Does this sound like an ideal supplement regimen / plan with safety > performance & long term health in mind?

 

Not at all. An ideal supplement plan - especially not concerned about short term highs but long term outcome - has to be based on testing, not guessing.

[brosci]

 

I tend to be more concerned with avoiding potential long-term negatives (high zinc implicated in alzheimer's and boron might increase copper and calcification?) than with maximizing short term positives.  Does this sound like an ideal supplement regimen / plan with safety > performance & long term health in mind?

 

Not at all. An ideal supplement plan - especially not concerned about short term highs but long term outcome - has to be based on testing, not guessing.

 

I mean, I just ran a Hormone + Thyroid + Cardiometabolic test for $400 bucks in total, then I'm looking at tacking on the Micronutrient panel down the road for what actually looks like $380 now, with a HMT on top for $120.  This is around a thousand dollars in testing.

[pamojja]

I mean, I just ran a Hormone + Thyroid + Cardiometabolic test for $400 bucks in total, then I'm looking at tacking on the Micronutrient panel down the road for what actually looks like $380 now, with a HMT on top for $120.  This is around a thousand dollars in testing.

 
Sorry to hear of that bad a state of affairs. In my country we pay monthly fees for health insurance, and for that we to get on request a basic check-up of most important lab markers, with complaints also more specialty ones, like hormones, thyroid and cardio. Even D3, zinc and copper are done that way. But then, if I add up your bill, health insurance here costs still more than what you would have to pay for these out of pocket. That's difficult either way. Would suggest to start with more reasonable priced options, and then repeat only with problematic ones. In a post above I linked to a HTMA for almost half your price.