154 replies to this topic

[Rusty Shackelford]

Read this article today and was wondering if a homemade version is possible.

 

https://www.scienced...70530140701.htm

 

Any suggestion for the dosage or cream to add MB to?

 

 

[pieter cloete]

Hi ErgoSam, You can buy MB at most aquarium shops. -

  https://www.earthcli...e-blue.html    This site give all the info in the " Write a review" at the end.

[tunt01]

Hi ErgoSam, You can buy MB at most aquarium shops. -

  https://www.earthcli...e-blue.html    This site give all the info in the " Write a review" at the end.

 

Do not buy this from an aquarium shop.  Get it from  USP licensed facility so that it is pharmaceutical grade.

[Rusty Shackelford]

I have plenty of MB laying around:) and I have been using it orally for years.

 

The question I have is more how much to add to a cream to make it effective and safe.

 

 

[Florian E.]

Thanks for the thread. That is also what i was looking for over the last days, for the same reason.

I already have a USP grade methylene blue (from bluebrainboost) here and use it occasionally (orally).

 

The only existing methylene blue cream product i found so far is this -> http://www.sharkvet....ProId=61&lng=En

 

I was asking myself about proper dosage for skin usage.

And if you would also need some additional transporters (like nanocarriers) for such a cream.

 

Would be nice if a chemist here in the forum could help with this.

Edited by Florian E., 02 June 2017 - 01:26 PM.

[maxwatt]

I would expect it to turn your skin blue.

[aconita]

Being methylene blue a dye I would expect that too...

 

Anyway it has been used at 0,1% in liposomes for light therapy.

 

Maybe at those low percentages the staining would be negligible, try on a small spot on your arm first.

[Turnbuckle]

It's not necessarily benign--

 

Methylene Blue Dye-Induced Skin Necrosis in Immediate Breast Reconstruction: Evaluation and Management

 

and

 

Skin Flap Necrosis by Bone Marking with Methylene Blue in Cochlear Implantation

 

and

 

Skin and fat necrosis of the breast following methylene blue dye injection for sentinel node biopsy in a patient with breast cancer

 

 

[aconita]

Maybe the dose makes the poison here, methylene blue is used to stain tissues because different ones stains different thus allowing for visual clues to the surgeon, I suppose straight methylene blue to be used in those cases for better marked staining, diluted as for topical use might be of less concerning. 

 

Anyway I doubt someone would attempt to apply straight methylene blue topically since staining will last for several days likely staining everything comes in contact too.

[aconita]

From the original study:

 

"During this two-week incubation period, we noticed the skin tissues treated with high concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and above) started to appear blue after 3 days, suggesting that MB dosage needs to be limited to avoid its colorant side effect on skin appearance. The tissues treated with lower concentrations of MB (from 0.1 μM to 2.5 μM) did not show any tissue coloring. Consistent with the ability of MB to stimulate cell proliferation, we noticed that, at the dosage of 0.5 μM, MB significantly increased cell viability in comparison to the PBS control. In addition, the tissues treated with higher concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and 10.0 μM) showed a reduction in cell viability (Fig. 4D). Based on these results, it can be concluded that low concentrations of MB (less than 2.5 μM) neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use. As a result, we performed the follow-up studies with MB at concentrations below 2.5 μM."

 

http://www.nature.co...598-017-02419-3

 

If my calculation is correct a concentration of 2.5μM means 0.5g methylene blue in 625L of solvent (water, for example), no wonder at those concentration there is no staining...

 

It looks like quite cheap since I suppose 625L of cream should last for a while...

 

Considering bathing in it wouldn't be out of question, I guess.

 

 

[Turnbuckle]

From the original study:

 

"During this two-week incubation period, we noticed the skin tissues treated with high concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and above) started to appear blue after 3 days, suggesting that MB dosage needs to be limited to avoid its colorant side effect on skin appearance. The tissues treated with lower concentrations of MB (from 0.1 μM to 2.5 μM) did not show any tissue coloring. Consistent with the ability of MB to stimulate cell proliferation, we noticed that, at the dosage of 0.5 μM, MB significantly increased cell viability in comparison to the PBS control. In addition, the tissues treated with higher concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and 10.0 μM) showed a reduction in cell viability (Fig. 4D). Based on these results, it can be concluded that low concentrations of MB (less than 2.5 μM) neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use. As a result, we performed the follow-up studies with MB at concentrations below 2.5 μM."

 

http://www.nature.co...598-017-02419-3

 

If my calculation is correct a concentration of 2.5μM means 0.5g methylene blue in 625L of solvent (water, for example), no wonder at those concentration there is no staining...

 

It looks like quite cheap since I suppose 625L of cream should last for a while...

 

Considering bathing in it wouldn't be out of question, I guess.

 

 

So an oral dose for an average human would be around 30 mg or less. This is in the range of a patent application for oral dosing of MB--

 

 

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Since it was first synthesized in 1876, methylene blue has been used for a variety of medicinal purposes. For example, it has been reported that bipolar manic-depressive patients treated with 300 mg/day methylene blue for one year were significantly less depressed than when treated with 15 mg/day placebo (Naylor, 1986). As another example, methylene blue at dosages of 65 mg taken three times a day has been reported to be useful in the management of chronic renal calculous disease (Smith, 1975). It has also been reported that methylene blue, injected at a dose of 1 mg/kg, improved brain oxidative metabolism and memory retention in rats (Callaway, 2004), and that senescence-enhanced oxidative stress is associated with deficiency of mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase in vascular endothelial cells (Xin 2003).

 

We have found that methylene blue and related diaminophenothiazines, also sometimes called thiazins, can protect cells from oxidative stress and delay cell senescence at effective concentrations that are orders of magnitude lower than previously reported therapeutic doses of methylene blue.

 

...

 

 By way of example, mitochondrial protective dosages of N-hydroxylamines in humans will typically be from about 100 ug to 1 g, preferably from about 10 ug to 1 g, more preferably at least 100 ug, more preferably at least 1 mg, more preferably at least 10 mg, most preferably at least 100 mg. In one embodiment, the cell is additionally contacted with acetyl carnitine and lipoic acid (e.g. U.S. Pat. No. 5,916,912). By way of example, mitochondrial protective dosages of this combination will typically be from about 1-50 mg/kg host/day carnitine together with about 1-50 mg/kg host/day of lipoic acid, preferably about 10 mg/kg host/day carnitine together with about 10 mg/kg host/day lipoic acid.

 

http://www.freepaten...06/0188866.html

 

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

Shoot! That's just too impractical to make at home

Edited by Rusty Shackelford, 06 June 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[aconita]

Really? :D

[roguereason]

Hi Aconita,

 

Can you share your calculations?

 

It's been a long time since I've studied anything resembling chemistry can you point out any mistake?

 

Please don't let me turn my skin blue.

 

 

Methylene blue/Molar mass 319.85 g/mol

 

1M = 319.85 g/L

1mM = 319.85 mg/L

1uM = 319.85 mcg/L

 

To make ~20ml of a 2.5 uM solution:

20/1000 * 319.85mcg * 2.5 = 15.9925 mcg

 

Using solution of 10mg / 30ml.

20 drops per ml * 30ml = 600 drops

16.6 mcg per drop

 

So add 1 drop at this concentration to a bit over 20ml of solvent? (~20.84)

 

 

 

 

[roguereason]

Cool.. I found a calculator and got the same result:

 

http://www.physiolog...calculator.html

 

"Dissolve 15.99250 μg of solute (MW = 319.85 g/mol) in a suitable solvent and dilute with solvent to a total solution volume of exactly 20 mL in order to get the desired concentration of 2.5 μM."

[aconita]

To make things easy :

 

http://www.physiolog...calculator.html

 

Enter the molecular weight (319.85)

Enter the mass of solute (1g MB)

Enter desired concentration (2.5μM as max concentration)

Hit calculate and you'll get the volume of solution (water)

 

I suggest to aim for 0.5-1.0μM

 

One ml of water = 20 drops

 

http://convert-to.co...ml-to-drop.html

 

Therefore in order to make a 1.0μM solution a practical approach could be to start from a 1% MB solution or to make one adding 1g MB to 100ml of distilled water.

 

100ml of water are 2000 drops (20x100ml), therefore 1 drop in 1.5l of water = about 1.0μM concentration (slightly rounded) since according to the calculator 1g MB in 3126.46553 liters of water yield a 1.0μM concentration, 1g MB at 1% (100ml) is 2000 drops, 2000 drops in 3126.46553 liters of water yield a 1.0μM concentration, 3126.46553 : 2000 = 1.563 rounded to 1.5 liter.

 

If you like better a 0.5μM concentration obviously just double the water (3 liters).

 

It doesn't seem very complicate and I hope I didn't make it look like it is, there shouldn't be much margin of error but if you really want to play safe just rub a drop on your inner arm for 3-4 days in a row and check for any blue stain.

 

Add 1% hyaluronic acid powder (300-400 KDa) in order to turn it in a gel or add in a blender some granular soy lecithin for about 2 minutes in order to turn it in a liposomal cream for easy application, as a good measure prepare enough for 2 weeks at a time and store in the fridge, just in case.

 

Adding the appropriate amount to shampoo (in order to get the same concentration as above) might be smart too.

 

At worst we can always all move to Pandora.

[roguereason]

I agree 0.5-1μM or so is better.  Not because of the color, but rather several of the measurements were better at .5 then 2.5.   Not sure if it's the peak, you could interpolate some level between.

 

I made a batch at 2.5 but then halved it to 1.25 as a start.  I might halve it again.

 

I started with water but further mixed with the appropriate amount of skin cream.  The cream is a beautiful sky blue, but so far no blue skin.  So Pandora will have to wait.

 

[aconita]

Lets keep in mind in the study the skin samples were kept soaked the whole time in a solution bath, in vivo things are a bit different, staining might be of less concern and effectiveness a bit lower, just guessing, of course.

 

In order to get a practical better understanding anecdotal reports from whom is trying this out are warmly welcome. 

[happy lemon]

It is really a very affordable DIY product.

 

The 1% solution of Bluebrainboost is out of stock, any other USP grade option?

[roguereason]

I used this:  https://www.ceretrop...e-blue-solution I chose the 10mg in 30ml option, but a weaker 1mg in 30ml is also avail.

 

But I've also seen https://mitoblue.com...aceutical-grade.

 

I've also ordered some USP powder for the future.

[Florian E.]

Thanks @all for the clarification on MB dosage.

 

I'm currently considering the "smurf bath" option as a first try.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i understand this, you should rather target fibroblasts instead of epidermis.

And to my knowledge there is still a lack of good (available) fibroblast delivery systems when applying compounds topically onto the skin, right ?

 

But, i found this report on liposomes and skin care. Seems like liposomes can't penetrate the skin, but can help agents get underway in some other way.

http://www.cosmetics...edient-delivery

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0146514

[happy lemon]

I used this:  https://www.ceretrop...e-blue-solution I chose the 10mg in 30ml option, but a weaker 1mg in 30ml is also avail.

 

But I've also seen https://mitoblue.com...aceutical-grade.

 

I've also ordered some USP powder for the future.

Thanks for sharing the info with us.

[Sarah Brandenb]

You can get eye drops from France with MB in it. I wonder if it could help with aging of the eyes? I can't find any research on that.

[VesperLynd]

<<Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i understand this, you should rather target fibroblasts instead of epidermis.

And to my knowledge there is still a lack of good (available) fibroblast delivery systems when applying compounds topically onto the skin, right ?>>

 

microneedling comes to mind....

 

DMSO as a solvent (could be problematic) or nano based or liposomal bases...possibilities.

[aconita]

Microneedling everyday, maybe twice a day, seems a bit unpractical.

 

Methylene blue is well absorbed by itself, granular soy lecithin acts as dermal penetrant enhancer regardless its liposomal state (and is very good at that indeed), topically applied hyaluronic acid up to 400KDa ends in the blood stream therefore crossing all skin layers and acts as a carrier.

 

Transdermal delivery is easy to achieve when molecules aren't too big and round (hyaluronic acid molecules can be relatively big but aren't round, elongated shape allows for a "needle" effect, a round 400KDa molecule can't cross the skin barrier no way but for an elongated one as hyaluronic acid is child game). 

 

I can confirm that several days applying methilene blue twice a day doesn't lead to any skin staining (1 drop 1% in 2 liters, actually a bit more since I rinsed the pipette in the same water, likely reaching 1.5 drops in 2 liters).

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Yeah, some people take the "500 Dalton rule" as gospel, not having considered the exceptions such as the "needle" effect.

[roguereason]

Methylene blue is 284.4 Daltons, so if the 500 Dalton rule is gospel...

[happy lemon]

aconita,

 

Did you put preservatives into the serum?

[aconita]

I actually did add 1 drop SSKI in my hyaluronic acid gel...but I don't think it is necessary, methylene blue is a disinfectant by itself, not the strongest but I doubt any bacteria or mold will be keen on forming in it, I just add SSKI because I like that stuff and I trow some of it in everything...

 

Anyway I am confident that hyaluronic acid gel made with methylene blue in amounts lasting no more than 30 days kept in the fridge don't need any preservative at all, methylene blue itself is more than enough for sure.

 

Methylene blue is 284.4 Daltons

 

Methylene blue itself gets absorbed nicely, no worry about that, it is low molecular weight and has good affinity with tissues, the issue is more about the additive in order to turn it into a cream or gel for easiness of use, again granular soy lecithin is a very effective absorption enhancer therefore it will turn methylene blue into a cream that will be absorbed without any issue and hyaluronic acid up to 400KDa yields a gel that can go as deep as systemic.

 

Just to make sure the additive isn't going to hinder absorption, that's all.

[happy lemon]

aconita, 

 

Two questions:

 

1.  You made a 2-liter of MB serum but only kept an amount which was enough for a 30-day use, did you?  Where is the rest of the serum?  

 

2.  How much percentage of lecithin did you put in the solution?