10 replies to this topic

[BADLUCK]

As i am a beginner i would like some advice on stacks and supplements for my depression, fatigue, brain fog, anhedonia, social anxiety and health anxiety.

 

I am a 27 year old male with gastritis and ibs so i cant take all supplements, for example i tried l-theanine and found it very hard on my stomach and get a sour stomach from it.

 

I am currently taking SJW, astaxanthine 12mg, b12 1500 mcg, d3 5000 IU and have rhodiola and magnesium on hand.

Would like some advice as what to add in and why, im thinking of ashwagandha and NOW adam multi.

 

note that most of my depression is contributed by my ibs as i am struggling to live with it because i had a iron stomach before this bs started and now i am barely capable of digesting anything and almost every doctor i go to say that it is basically in my head and should go see a psychic and take SSRI'S.

 

love to hear someone's advice and opinion. 

 

 

 

[jack black]

Have you looked into diatery changes for IBD? Of course inflammation will give you depression and fatigue.

[ThreeKings12341]

Have you looked into diatery changes for IBD? Of course inflammation will give you depression and fatigue.

 

jack. so what about histamine intolerance? is that also to be careful with? because i have fructose intolerance and all that after sh** . maybe u know...

[Mind_Paralysis]

There IS proof that SSRI's, TCA's and other antidepressants help with the symptoms of IBS though - I believe that the disorder has to do with a faulty brain-gut loop somehow, because of this. For those that don't know, the gut does contain quite a bit of serotonin-receptors, for instance, which can then obviously be DIRECTLY AFFECTED by swallowing an SSRI.

 

However, as I understand it, your response to various drugs is dependent on which TYPE of IBS you have, so not every AD-med' is equal here, you gotta' pick the right one. (I suppose the others have far less PERIPHERAL effects...? and are more selective towards the brain itself - a bit like how you can have antihistamines which work on both mind and body - which in that case is often bad - you want it either for sleep or for runny nose, not both - this could be something similar)

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute Guideline on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://www.gastrojou...1089-0/fulltext

 

"A systematic review of multiple RCTs of 6- to 12-week duration showed a modest improvement in global relief and abdominal pain in patients treated with tricyclic antidepressants, although the overall body of evidence was low quality."

 

 

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute - Technical Review on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://s3.amazonaws....Association.pdf

 

Hmm... let's have a look at the Tricyclics, and see what we can find... IF you want to try something quickly though, which is sort-of tricyclic, and currently undergoing trials for the treatment of specificaly IBS, then get some Tianeptine - it should be mentioned that some find Tianeptine activating and therefore helpful with fatigue.

The same could be said for the true tricyclics, wherein many of them have significant norepinephrinergic reuptake inhibition action. (similar to an SNRI, like Duloxetine)

 

All right... let's see...

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2669938/
 

"We suggest using TCAs with the least anticholinergic effects (i.e. doxepin and desipramine) for elderly patients or constipation-predominant IBS and imipramine or amitriptyline for diarrhea-predominant IBS and patients with insomnia. Larger comparative trials with strict surveillance on compliance are needed to elaborate the role of antidepressants in standard practice."

 

Well, there you have the info! = ) What type of IBS do you concur with, in the description? Constipation or diarrhea? Would some of your problems with fatigue perhaps best be battled by one of the more noradrenergic ones?

 

 

On another note - there's a FODMAP, aka Food Map -app these days, which lets you check various food-stuffs if they elicit responses in IBS - the first list is only generic though, and not entirely correct for you as a person,  but you can also eventually build a vast cartography of specific substances which are ok for just YOU to digest.

 

I have a friend with IBS, and I've been nagging her to actually get a grip on this, since she's been complaining for years - eventually she started using the app and now her symptoms have significantly lessened, since now she can double-check not just individual ingredients, but specific dishes as well! = )

 

 

[BADLUCK]

There IS proof that SSRI's, TCA's and other antidepressants help with the symptoms of IBS though - I believe that the disorder has to do with a faulty brain-gut loop somehow, because of this. For those that don't know, the gut does contain quite a bit of serotonin-receptors, for instance, which can then obviously be DIRECTLY AFFECTED by swallowing an SSRI.

 

However, as I understand it, your response to various drugs is dependent on which TYPE of IBS you have, so not every AD-med' is equal here, you gotta' pick the right one. (I suppose the others have far less PERIPHERAL effects...? and are more selective towards the brain itself - a bit like how you can have antihistamines which work on both mind and body - which in that case is often bad - you want it either for sleep or for runny nose, not both - this could be something similar)

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute Guideline on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://www.gastrojou...1089-0/fulltext

 

"A systematic review of multiple RCTs of 6- to 12-week duration showed a modest improvement in global relief and abdominal pain in patients treated with tricyclic antidepressants, although the overall body of evidence was low quality."

 

 

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute - Technical Review on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://s3.amazonaws....Association.pdf

 

Hmm... let's have a look at the Tricyclics, and see what we can find... IF you want to try something quickly though, which is sort-of tricyclic, and currently undergoing trials for the treatment of specificaly IBS, then get some Tianeptine - it should be mentioned that some find Tianeptine activating and therefore helpful with fatigue.

The same could be said for the true tricyclics, wherein many of them have significant norepinephrinergic reuptake inhibition action. (similar to an SNRI, like Duloxetine)

 

All right... let's see...

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2669938/
 

"We suggest using TCAs with the least anticholinergic effects (i.e. doxepin and desipramine) for elderly patients or constipation-predominant IBS and imipramine or amitriptyline for diarrhea-predominant IBS and patients with insomnia. Larger comparative trials with strict surveillance on compliance are needed to elaborate the role of antidepressants in standard practice."

 

Well, there you have the info! = ) What type of IBS do you concur with, in the description? Constipation or diarrhea? Would some of your problems with fatigue perhaps best be battled by one of the more noradrenergic ones?

 

 

On another note - there's a FODMAP, aka Food Map -app these days, which lets you check various food-stuffs if they elicit responses in IBS - the first list is only generic though, and not entirely correct for you as a person,  but you can also eventually build a vast cartography of specific substances which are ok for just YOU to digest.

 

I have a friend with IBS, and I've been nagging her to actually get a grip on this, since she's been complaining for years - eventually she started using the app and now her symptoms have significantly lessened, since now she can double-check not just individual ingredients, but specific dishes as well! = )

hi there, 

 

thanks for the info, will look further into tomorrow, i have IBS-C and fatigue ALL DAY EVERY DAY, i have amitriptyline laying around here but i want to finish a course of SJW first since i added a bottle. 

 

note that at this point i have D butt that is thanks to MAG07, a magnesium supplement which makes the stool softer, if it wasnt for this i wasnt able to go at all. 

 

from my understandings amitriptyline and other ad. etc. helps block the pain signal from the gut going to the brain, as i am at my wits end and ready to commit suicide if i dont get my ibs under control, at this point i am willing to try everything.

 

if someone told me that i had to eat shit for a week and i would be fully cured, i would probably do that.

[BADLUCK]

There IS proof that SSRI's, TCA's and other antidepressants help with the symptoms of IBS though - I believe that the disorder has to do with a faulty brain-gut loop somehow, because of this. For those that don't know, the gut does contain quite a bit of serotonin-receptors, for instance, which can then obviously be DIRECTLY AFFECTED by swallowing an SSRI.

 

However, as I understand it, your response to various drugs is dependent on which TYPE of IBS you have, so not every AD-med' is equal here, you gotta' pick the right one. (I suppose the others have far less PERIPHERAL effects...? and are more selective towards the brain itself - a bit like how you can have antihistamines which work on both mind and body - which in that case is often bad - you want it either for sleep or for runny nose, not both - this could be something similar)

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute Guideline on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://www.gastrojou...1089-0/fulltext

 

"A systematic review of multiple RCTs of 6- to 12-week duration showed a modest improvement in global relief and abdominal pain in patients treated with tricyclic antidepressants, although the overall body of evidence was low quality."

 

 

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute - Technical Review on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://s3.amazonaws....Association.pdf

 

Hmm... let's have a look at the Tricyclics, and see what we can find... IF you want to try something quickly though, which is sort-of tricyclic, and currently undergoing trials for the treatment of specificaly IBS, then get some Tianeptine - it should be mentioned that some find Tianeptine activating and therefore helpful with fatigue.

The same could be said for the true tricyclics, wherein many of them have significant norepinephrinergic reuptake inhibition action. (similar to an SNRI, like Duloxetine)

 

All right... let's see...

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2669938/
 

"We suggest using TCAs with the least anticholinergic effects (i.e. doxepin and desipramine) for elderly patients or constipation-predominant IBS and imipramine or amitriptyline for diarrhea-predominant IBS and patients with insomnia. Larger comparative trials with strict surveillance on compliance are needed to elaborate the role of antidepressants in standard practice."

 

Well, there you have the info! = ) What type of IBS do you concur with, in the description? Constipation or diarrhea? Would some of your problems with fatigue perhaps best be battled by one of the more noradrenergic ones?

 

 

On another note - there's a FODMAP, aka Food Map -app these days, which lets you check various food-stuffs if they elicit responses in IBS - the first list is only generic though, and not entirely correct for you as a person,  but you can also eventually build a vast cartography of specific substances which are ok for just YOU to digest.

 

I have a friend with IBS, and I've been nagging her to actually get a grip on this, since she's been complaining for years - eventually she started using the app and now her symptoms have significantly lessened, since now she can double-check not just individual ingredients, but specific dishes as well! = )

i looked up the Tianeptine , it looks quite promising only is it not available where i live ( holland ) 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

There IS proof that SSRI's, TCA's and other antidepressants help with the symptoms of IBS though - I believe that the disorder has to do with a faulty brain-gut loop somehow, because of this. For those that don't know, the gut does contain quite a bit of serotonin-receptors, for instance, which can then obviously be DIRECTLY AFFECTED by swallowing an SSRI.

 

However, as I understand it, your response to various drugs is dependent on which TYPE of IBS you have, so not every AD-med' is equal here, you gotta' pick the right one. (I suppose the others have far less PERIPHERAL effects...? and are more selective towards the brain itself - a bit like how you can have antihistamines which work on both mind and body - which in that case is often bad - you want it either for sleep or for runny nose, not both - this could be something similar)

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute Guideline on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://www.gastrojou...1089-0/fulltext

 

"A systematic review of multiple RCTs of 6- to 12-week duration showed a modest improvement in global relief and abdominal pain in patients treated with tricyclic antidepressants, although the overall body of evidence was low quality."

 

 

 

American Gastroenterological Association Institute - Technical Review on the Pharmacological Management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome

http://s3.amazonaws....Association.pdf

 

Hmm... let's have a look at the Tricyclics, and see what we can find... IF you want to try something quickly though, which is sort-of tricyclic, and currently undergoing trials for the treatment of specificaly IBS, then get some Tianeptine - it should be mentioned that some find Tianeptine activating and therefore helpful with fatigue.

The same could be said for the true tricyclics, wherein many of them have significant norepinephrinergic reuptake inhibition action. (similar to an SNRI, like Duloxetine)

 

All right... let's see...

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2669938/
 

"We suggest using TCAs with the least anticholinergic effects (i.e. doxepin and desipramine) for elderly patients or constipation-predominant IBS and imipramine or amitriptyline for diarrhea-predominant IBS and patients with insomnia. Larger comparative trials with strict surveillance on compliance are needed to elaborate the role of antidepressants in standard practice."

 

Well, there you have the info! = ) What type of IBS do you concur with, in the description? Constipation or diarrhea? Would some of your problems with fatigue perhaps best be battled by one of the more noradrenergic ones?

 

 

On another note - there's a FODMAP, aka Food Map -app these days, which lets you check various food-stuffs if they elicit responses in IBS - the first list is only generic though, and not entirely correct for you as a person,  but you can also eventually build a vast cartography of specific substances which are ok for just YOU to digest.

 

I have a friend with IBS, and I've been nagging her to actually get a grip on this, since she's been complaining for years - eventually she started using the app and now her symptoms have significantly lessened, since now she can double-check not just individual ingredients, but specific dishes as well! = )

hi there, 

 

thanks for the info, will look further into tomorrow, i have IBS-C and fatigue ALL DAY EVERY DAY, i have amitriptyline laying around here but i want to finish a course of SJW first since i added a bottle. 

 

note that at this point i have D butt that is thanks to MAG07, a magnesium supplement which makes the stool softer, if it wasnt for this i wasnt able to go at all. 

 

from my understandings amitriptyline and other ad. etc. helps block the pain signal from the gut going to the brain, as i am at my wits end and ready to commit suicide if i dont get my ibs under control, at this point i am willing to try everything.

 

if someone told me that i had to eat shit for a week and i would be fully cured, i would probably do that.

 

 

Hold off on that Amitriptyline man - it says right there that it's not good for Constipation-type IBS - and since you have such fatigue, you're probably better off with DESIPRAMINE anyway - which predominantly inhibits the reuptake of Norepinephrine, meaning that it's a lot more stimulating.

 

Here, check it out:

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Desipramine
 

[BADLUCK]

well i did purchase some NOW ashwagandha, unfortunately it states that its not for people with gastro issues and ulcers and may cause digestive upset, wish they put that info on the fucking site. 

[Mind_Paralysis]

well i did purchase some NOW ashwagandha, unfortunately it states that its not for people with gastro issues and ulcers and may cause digestive upset, wish they put that info on the fucking site. 

 

Desi-desi-desi-De-DESI-pramine! Try that instead.

 

Please.

[sentics]

desipramine is rather activating, right? what might be a good addition for sleep - trazodone?

I am interested in desipramine mainly because it is supposed to be less blunting than SSSRIs/SNRIs; maybe for some serotonin boost one might add tianeptine?

Edited by sentics, 19 June 2017 - 02:49 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

desipramine is rather activating, right? what might be a good addition for sleep - trazodone?

I am interested in desipramine mainly because it is supposed to be less blunting than SSRIs/SNRIs; maybe for some serotonin boost one might add tianeptine?

 

Yep, Desipramine is rather activating - it has just the right properties for the OP. (there ARE more activating TCA's though, but it's fairly activating)
 

For sleep, sure - Trazodone, Mirtazapine, or Doxepin are good choices.

(I'd say Doxepin and Trazodone preferrably though, since they are both more selective towards either H1 or 5ht2a than Mirtazapine - it's easier to trial either effect on their own if ones uses them instead)

 

Honestly, I wouldn't combine Desipramine with Tianeptine - at least not if you don't have SCT, ADHD or some sort of fatigue or wakefulness issues - it would, imho, be too activating for most other patient-groups.

 

I think you must have misunderstood something regarding Tianeptine's mode of action as well, yeah? Because it won't give any serotonin-boost - the serotonin-effects are apparently very low, and generally of the decreasing activity type, than the increasing activity type - Tianeptine mainly affects glutamate, and to some extent, the Opiate networks.