848 replies to this topic

[recon]

We have spent a considerable number of posts deliberating on the age-danger arguments, amounting to pages.

Those are not about the group buy and are off-topic after a certain amount of mindless reiteration.

I suggest opening another thread to discuss on the ethics or safety of taking unknown substances in general for people under <insert age twenty years below own>.

Don’t hesitate to open more threads on how other personal decisions of those youths hurt themselves. Repeating the same case using the same arguments multiple times should work to dissuade them because more walls of texts off-topic have always work.

[OP2040]

Good point recon.  I do think people here should take safety more seriously, but at the end of the day it is their choice.  And if there is not informed (well researched) consent here, then it doesn't exist anywhere.  I don't worry so much about people dying because we all know the risks involved in experimentation.  But I do somewhat worry about bad press that could hold back medical science for decades, as happened with gene therapy and the Gelsinger case. 

 

That being said, the gentleman that died was definitely an extreme case, even for the likes of this board.  He was making his own stuff, including the gene therapy concoction that probably is the culprit. 

 

So far FOX04-dri has had very mild side effects as reported in this thread by a number of people who have taken it.  It would still be nice to get another roll call just to see if everyone's doing well. 

[JohnFurber]

Aaron Traywick died this past Sunday, at age 28 years.

 

UPDATE 3 MAY 2018

The coroner's report states that he had Ketamine in his system. This veterinary tranquilizer caused him to pass out in the water. Then he turned to the side to curl up as during sleeping. His mouth and nose were under water, but he did not wake up. He drowned. There was water in his lungs. The flotation tank was in proper order. The spa was not at fault in any way.

END OF UPDATE 3 MAY 2018

[stulancs]

If I recall correctly, he's not the first person to die as a result of using ketamine in a flotation tank.

[OP2040]

The herpes thing was understandable on some level, after all people make mistakes.  But then when I heard Ketamine, my first thought was "oh one of those guys".  Completely insufferable douchebag.  If I need an edgy role model, I'll stick with Liz Parrish.

[tintinet]

The herpes thing was understandable on some level, after all people make mistakes. But then when I heard Ketamine, my first thought was "oh one of those guys". Completely insufferable douchebag. If I need an edgy role model, I'll stick with Liz Parrish.

Could be for depression, no?

[The Capybara]

John Lilly as well as Richard Feynman used to take ketamine and do the floatation thing.

https://en.m.wikiped...i/John_C._Lilly
https://en.m.wikiped...Richard_Feynman

https://timeline.com...sd-c17d5e84c653

I don't know why this death is getting so much attention here. It's peripheral to this thread and though maybe sad, it's irrelevant.

[OP2040]

Ya, we need to drop it and get back to the point of the thread.  Lets just say I'm very biased against the 60s drug culture.  Maybe it's a generational thing.

 

Anyway, back to FOX04-dri.  Does anyone have anything new to report?  It seems like it's been a couple weeks.  Either people have it in their freezers waiting, they already took it and it's pretty boring, or they're waiting on the second batch.

 

I fall into the last category, I'm waiting on the next batch.  I'll definitely report when the time comes. 

 

 

[mikey]

As strange as it sounds, it is encouraging to hear about Meatsauce's side effects.

I think it's best to wait for more reports, but meanwhile those trialing this compound may want to (perhaps) read up on allopurinol used as a prophylaxis in chemo.

 

I have not studied allopurinol, but I have studied liposomal vitamin C as a prophylaxis during chemo.

 

I have a close friend, closer to me than my sisters, that is Type-1 diabetic, with no health problems until 65. She has a Ph.D. in nutrition and we almost always agree on even the most esoteric notions about progressive nutrition's potential uses, so she is utterly on top of eating copious amounts of vegetables, etc...) 

 

She developed lung cancer at 67, which apparently was metastasized from endometrial cancer, which she beat two years ago.

 

When she first told me of her lung cancer when we spoke on the phone - she lives 2,000 miles away - she sounded like a person that had maybe 8% of the energy needed to stay alive when she was at her worst. Her left lung had filled up with fluids and she found herself needing it to be drained every few days, as she could barely breathe, much less talk.

 

I got her free samples of Valimenta Liposomal vitamin C, because I met the owner, Emek Blair, that got his Ph.D. studying liposomes, at a conference a couple of years ago. Well, while there are some that say that liposomal vitamin C alone will cure cancer, Emek says that liposomal vitamin C is an effective agent to prevent damage to the body that chemo, which he agrees can be necessary, can cause. 

 

I note that there are many companies, like Mercola, selling what they call "liposomal vitamin C" that are just emulsions or whatever.

 

My friend WAS taking Mercola's liposomal vitamin C before the lung cancer started and we argue about the viability of ANYTHING Mercola sells.

 

Shortly after she started on the Valimenta liposomal vitamin C her doctor was amazed that he lung is dry and doesn't need draining AND she recovers much more quickly after her rounds of chemo. As well, her abdomen was filling with fluid and that isn't happening now.

 

So, for consideration for those that are trialing this compound...

Edited by mikey, 05 May 2018 - 06:45 AM.

[mikey]

I would not be injecting ANY peptide into muscle. Subq belly fat only. Keep in mind you're not buying anything ever trialed on anything other than mice. If you get an infection or bad reaction in your muscle, you will can be looking at a trip to the hospital. Infections from subq shots typically clear up after a few days of waiting it out.... IM and you could need to go to a hospital. If you're intent on IM come hell or high water then use the buttocks. If you react badly at least as opposed to a leg (quad) or an arm, buttocks pain won't limit range of motion.

 

I agree. I had a (close) friend that used anabolic steroids and injected once directly into his quad and suffered such a terrible infection that he was hospitalized where the medics removed a chunk of necrotic quad tissue and afterwards his leg looked like it had been bitten by a shark.

 

Sub-Q only in belly fat a couple inches to the right or left of the navel is safest is what I am told.

[mikey]

Aaron Traywick died this past Sunday, at age 28 years.

 

UPDATE 3 MAY 2018

The coroner's report states that he had Ketamine in his system. This veterinary tranquilizer caused him to pass out in the water. Then he turned to the side to curl up as during sleeping. His mouth and nose were under water, but he did not wake up. He drowned. There was water in his lungs. The flotation tank was in proper order. The spa was not at fault in any way.

END OF UPDATE 3 MAY 2018

++++++++++

Following was posted 2 May 2018 before seeing Coroner's report.

++++++++

He was interested in obtaining the injectable senolytic polypeptide, FOXO4-dri.

He was also interested in testing injectable IL-2 for cancer. I do not know whether he had them tested by independent, third-party labs before using them. I strongly encourage our members to contract with established, domestic, independent, third-party testing labs if you are purchasing experimental research materials, especially from Chinese or unknown sources, and especially if they are to be injected. As many of us already know, research chemicals are not required to adhere to the stringent purity controls that would be required of approved pharmaceutical drugs that are sold to the general public.

I first met Aaron Traywick at the Gerontological Society (IAGG and GSA) meeting in San Francisco last summer. He was the founder and CEO of Ascendance Biomedical. Here is news coverage from "The Scientist".

https://www.the-scie...n-DC-Float-Spa/

In the past, he had injected himself with an experimental Herpes drug, but it is not clear whether he did so anytime recently.
Over the past several months, he had expressed interest in experimenting with various oral and injectable substances.

I do not know whether Aaron was posting on this forum with an alias.

If you know whether he participated in a group buy, it might be helpful to tell the rest of us if Aaron had obtained FOXO4-dri, and if so, from where.

 

Apparently has nothing to do with using FOXO4 DRI.

 

Sounds like Whitney Houston. Take a dissociative anesthetic, then fall asleep in water.

Off-topic, but where is the mystery?

 

I'd rather be "safe" just taking C60oo. But maybe I'm just "getting old."

 

I have only found home-made C60 to be reasonably affordable, thus I've had others continue to embarrass me by statements about me looking like a different (younger) person, while I no longer use more exotic materials.

 

Dasatinib with quercetin DID noticeably decrease my blood pressure, to that of a teenager, even during times when it would tend to rise. I reasoned that the D/Q had "cleaned" my arterial endothelial cells. I only did it twice, so the first time with a 3000 mg dasatinib dose experienced interrupted QT-interval for 8 days, then over a period of weeks with one more much smaller dose of D/Q 50/1000 mg my blood pressure dropped so much and stayed very low for a long time period of maybe a couple of months before it began to rise again, so I figured that I would wait for FOXO4-DRI availability, rather than experience even 50 mg of dasatinib again.

 

FOXO4-DRI seemed to be the next safe logical step, but reports on this forum render me disinterested.

[DareDevil]

Hi Mikey,

 

Hope all is well for you. At this time I am at last trying the Foxo4 received from the first Group Buy batch. I waited for two weeks of "clearing time" to remove residual GDF-11, Epitalon, Testosterone, etc.

 

Today I took 35mg split into two subQ injections, one on either side of the bellly. The injection sites, each with 50ml of saline, quickly became both hot and irritated, but not much worse than when I inject Epitalon, only it's more intense and persistant over several hours. I attached a photo of one of them so that you can see it's a visible reaction, but nothing too nasty for sure.

 

 

I was planning on upping my dose to 50mg and spreading treatment over 2 days, instead of the usual 3 injections, one every other day. However I noted an unexpected effect of this product. My body feels warm and flushed, with the impression of being worked on from the inside. While this may be an imaginary placebo effect, many other products I have taken even at high doses gave me no such sensations.

 

I notice something is going on, and it is sufficient that I believe that an effectiveness plateau is reached in my case at 35mg/80kg body weight. I plan to take my next two identical doses during the next two days, reducing the duration of my exposure by half, but increasing the circulating dose during these three days by approximately 50% when accounting for product half-life. I will not take any other products during this testing and will soon post further comments.

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil

[OP2040]

Thanks for the update DD, look forward to hearing more in the coming days, don't be shy!

[DareDevil]

OK, here's the second follow-up. My first subQ injection was done in the afternoon, the second one upon wake-up the following morning. Each was dosed at 35mg. I was about to take the last dose the same day before bed, but felt it was still active enough to wait. I took the third dose of 30mg the following morning.

 

This last dose is still active so I cannot give my final conclusions this soon. However, in sum my impressions so far are as follow. Upon the first injection I noted a manifest effect. I hadn't heard positive responses from others so I was ready to add 15mg to my first dose an hour later, splitting the 100mg into two subsequent injections of 50mg each. However, I felt the effects were strong enough to not do this. Remember, I am notorious for upping dosage until I can really feel effects, so this attests to the fact that there is definitely, at least in my case, something going on at the 35mg dosage.

 

It is hard to describe something that affects your body in ways that you never experienced before. So I will try to outline a few of my impressions. At first I felt a warmth throughout my body and also a combination of slightly more low ebb energy as well as a sense of calm and relaxation. This was unexpected and lasted the entire first day. During the second day of intake I worked for ten hours and felt fine. One thing I noticed was first a sense of being more centered physically, i.e. a heightened awareness of my body but not so much of its outlying surface, and a tightening sensation that feels like a general contraction of all tissues. I don't know what this can be attributed to, hopefully it is due to the elimination of old cells that have less binding force or possibly the loss of cells in general that causes one's body to carry slightly less mass and occupy a bit less physical space?

 

The second morning after, prior to the third intake I felt like the effects had subsided, with maybe 25% residual effects as it was definitely wearing off. So I no longer postponed the third injection and took the remaining 30mg of Foxo4-DRI. I think it is probably more important to retain a sufficiently active amount of this chemical in one's bloodstream for it to do a more active cell clearing than would occur with lower dosages in circulation in your body. I find that at least in my case it is more worthwhile than using lesser dosages over a longer period of time. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer in my view, you can tap it gently for days without driving it in, while a single stronger blow can knock it into the board instantly.

 

While I understand that mechanical force and manifest effect of chemicals are not at all the same thing, I do see a similarity with their respective threshold factors wherein under sufficient impact the forces are resisted, and cannot reach the desired effect. I don't know whether the half-life of drugs in mice is different than in humans, but I think that possibly the best way to reproduce the test results that were published, would be to maintain this protocol for six days, but dosing every day instead of every other day might be more effective. It could be because the translation of dosages to our human levels is different, but if I had more I would definitely stretch this test further until 200mg had been injected. I don't feel in any way negatively affected, much to the contrary.

 

I will report back on my impressions of my third daily dose, and speaking of what I may have noted as the general effects of this treatment prior to follow-up with a short run of Dasatinib and Quercetin that I should start a few days later. Afterwards I plan to do cell sweeping and clearance and through chelation with EDTA and wheatgrass. This prior to preparing with supplements and preliminary treatments for my second activated autologous bone marrow stem cell infusion.

 

DareDevil

[tintinet]

Amazing. Did nada for me.

[Ibbz]

Amazing. Did nada for me.

 

Did you have any pre-existing health issues that may have been effected by senescence ?

[Rocket]

Amazing. Did nada for me.

Keep in mind daredevil is someone who admitted he reuses needles and gave himself a very bad infection and he also claims to inject gdf11 as a "pick me up" for energy.

His entire review reads like new age pseudo science... Feeling centered? Really. By eliminating a few senescent cells even if the peptide works in humans like in mice. A feeling of warmth? Really. Its called placebo and wishful thinking.

Show me an improvement in eyesight, measurable reflexes, measurable endurance, hair regrowth or hair recoloration from gray... Show me improved egfr function for that matter.

How about improved V02?

How about anything measurable scientifically because feeling centered and feeling warm ain't science.

Edited by Rocket, 11 May 2018 - 01:16 AM.

[DareDevil]

Hi Rocket,

 

I really like you and don't get it why you have formed such a negative opinion of me. I'm actually a university professor and founder of a research institute, nothing like what you describe. A member here has of his own initiative investigated me, and can confirm. I can have him contact whomever wishes to know. I admit that when enthused about experimentation I sometimes fail to communicate clearly and to sufficiently outline why I do things in a more adventurous way than is advisable or sufficiently dissuade others from following my bad example. I will try to be more responsible in the way I communicate in the future. I value your many contributions to this site and will take note of what I may have said or done that gives cause for concern.

 

I am admittedly not trying to either join or disrupt the consensus about Foxo4. However I didn't think it would amount to much and reluctantly took my doses expecting to have squandered my 825 dollars. Several factors might better explain my experience being different from that of others here. I have done a number of things that others may not have done prior to the intake of Foxo4. As you noted I have taken larger doses than most people of GDF-11. I have also taken NAD+ by IM injection. Last December I had autologous bone marrow stem cell infusion done in Mexico after heightening its effects by Hyberbaric Pressure Chamber sessions. And I have taken fairly continuous doses of Epitalon for several months up to 2 weeks prior to severance before doing the Foxo4.

 

You mention improvements in eyesight, well I wasn't even going to mention that because it didn't seem either as relevant or verifiable as stronger physical impressions, but yes, I quickly noted on day two that I don't need to pull out my glasses to read. My GF noticed that she didn't have to increase the size of word documents on her laptop to read and discuss research topics. I didn't even tell her why, but since you call upon this as some sort of higher nature of key evidence, I do convey it now. As background information I have for some time now delayed scheduling cataract surgery, a pathology that is in its early initial stages. While the improvement isn't huge, it is noticeable and I did definitely notice it. But claims of instant eyesight improvement are in my eyes (pun intended) disputable and sound like miraculous cures, therefore best set aside. I still plan to go ahead with the cataract surgery, the improvement isn't a cure in a single Foxo4 session. And as you will no doubt say, maybe it's a placebo effect?

 

FYI I don't use GDF-11 as a pick-me-up for "energy". I think you really ought to have less of a knee jerk reaction when you read other people's posts or should I say when you read between the lines, adding your own words. That is not even a paraphrasing. I ought to know since I'm the author and the subject of such statements. And what I said was that I noted it gave me increased energy, manifesting that the substance was indeed active in my body, and when this energy reduced I made the arguable observation that possibly this activity was reduced also. Thus I would renew intake to ensure that it was still active in my body. This isn't the same as using it as an energy booster. Honestly I couldn't care less about my energy level unless it has an impact on health and wellbeing, or a huge task of work to accomplish under duress, because not only bodybuilders like you need to work or work-out FWIW.

 

So folks here can discount my entire honest and sincere comments on this protocol. It however is not some stupid New Age holistic cannabis enhanced hippie trip-out. I tried to clearly document by my only empirical means at hand, those of personal perceptions and observations, what did and did not occur during my intake. While for others here the potential Placebo effects are indeed a source of risk of confusion and/or misinformation, I ask you all to hear me out but take it with a grain of salt. Everyone's experience may be different.

 

I felt kind of "burned" at the high expense of the cost of this trial, assuming it was all for nothing. So I'd be the last person to volunteer to pay even more to continue with this substance unless I was - rightly or wrongly (for each of you to judge) - convinced that we've got something here that can positively affect one's health and wellbeing. I was wondering if it would make me feel more energetic or younger, and in fact it didn't give me exactly that impression. It basically made my entire body feel less "distended". I didn't feel like my tissues were "loose" before, but now that I feel "tighter" I realize it is more akin to how my body felt several decades ago. It will take time to determine what made me either "imagine this in a placebo effect" or more likely "sense this" due to some form of unstudied effects of Foxo4 on a sixty year-old body.

 

Despite not having large sums of disposable income due to many other larger commitments, I now am envisaging making a direct purchase of 240mg of Foxo4. This is because I will next be taking 40mg/day for six days running. I don't yet know when I would schedule this second round of Foxo4, but probably this summer. Of course I don't recommend that others self-experiment at all, much less push the limits in dosage as I tend to. Especially those here who are younger and have more to gain by lessing the older ones to test things out for them. After all, I have more to gain and less to lose by taking risks than some here who are in their twenties. 

 

I take such risks not because I am a totally irresponsible lightheaded idiot as some here proclaim, but for three reasons. One is because I am under pressure in my personal life to advance my age reversal efforts. My goal is to remove 20 years of aging insofar as possible, and this as soon as possible. Yes it is an exaggerate goal of an inordinate dimension, but those who know my life understand the whys and wherefores. Secondly, because someone in our community, for the common benefit of this information, needs to cross the dividing line so that we all might know where the dosage limits may be for new untested substances.

 

Thirdly, due to an absence of data on the risks of new experimental substances, the principle of precaution brings other folks to justly take inordinately small quantities, in order to avoid taking unnecessary risks. And to discover any potential ability of substances to have a greater manifest rejuvenating effect at higher dosages, I try them at doses greater than those used by more cautious experimenters. I only do this in the absence of known dangerous side-effects. And I do so fully understanding the great potential risks of unknown potential negative effects on health.

 

I test them at higher dosages than the cautionary low doses established in the absence of scientifically determined safety recommendations. However, I will always halt intake the moment I notice anything wrong. Hopefully this will not be too late - a serious risk that I take in full conscience. However, I dissuade others here or elsewhere from doing this without grave and compelling reasons.

 

Since in my case, for personal reasons that are only of my own concern, a measure of calculated risk has become necessary - I tend to take enough of a substance until I feel there is a manifest effect I can sense in my body, and if it feels too strong I stop a while and dial back dosage on ulterior intake or abandon testing altogether. When Rapamycin caused side effects at higher dosages I dialed it back down to low to median cautious dosages. When I felt that I had too much GDF-11 in my system, I stopped for over a month due to its residual half-life which last a long time. So I am a risk taker, but not a totally irrational or irresponsible one. I will continue with my last comments on my Foxo4 intake in another post.

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil

Edited by DareDevil, 12 May 2018 - 07:30 AM.

[DareDevil]

Finally, as my experience is different from that of others here, I will say that maybe what makes my physiology a bit different than that of others might be having more activated stem cells that could potentially boost the action of the Foxo4 in my system? Interestingly I waited for their effect to dwindle before starting the Foxo4, as I imagined that it would reduce senolytic effects. I will wait only 2 months after my next Stem Cell Infusion to do another Foxo4 run. The only reason I make this assumption is that I can't think of anything else I have taken or done that is distinctly different from others in this Group Buy. Many here take Epitalon, GDF-11, etc. None to my knowledge do Stem Cell Infusions.

 

I am sure others here, in all logic and with research documentation in support, will insist that SCT can only counteract senolytics. I thought so myself until this time. However, there may some other reason that evades my awareness at this time, namely a highly distorted placebo effect as the human mind can and does tend to play trick on us, the interaction with another substance residual in my body, extreme exercise, or other exogenous factors not yet identified.

 

So I will resume with my concluding remarks about my last day of intake at 30mg subQ. Interestingly I felt less residual effects the morning after than subsequently to the first intake. I sensed I had maybe 15% left in my body before the last shot, and therefore was happy that I had a remedial dose left to take. Once I injected it subQ I happily noticed that within an hour or two it has re-become active at a similar level to the previous day. I also felt that this was furthering its effect and that my body was feeling somehow rearranged and tensed up. 

 

As a side note, that only came to mind now, during the prior two weeks I had a number of very intense in depth Thai massages including them walking on your back, etc. This may have contributed to the tensioning sensations throughout my body. I state this not because I believe it is necessarily relevant, but it might have an incidence on interpreting my report. I haven't heard about Foxo4 having healing effects, unlike BPC-157 or other substances that could be credited with patching up your body, so I don't think this to be pertinent, but wanted to make sure I declare all the contextual factors to better elucidate my impressions that are different from those of others here.

 

During the last day of intake I felt spy and well, but not warm or especially energetic. I noted after a glass of wine in the evening that I lost all energy, lying down and feeling very tired. It lasted for half an hour and I was again up and about. This doesn't happen to me usually, so I took note. The next morning I felt that the effects were pretty much over, with very little residual amounts of the drug in my body that didn't quite feel back to normal. Actually I am typing this at that time and feel normal, but my body does feel a bit different, partially like it did when I was in my thirties. Yes, I agree this is possibly or probably due to a placebo effect, but I do experience this odd sensation at this time. Time will tell, and we will see where research goes in the future for Foxo4. But I was the last of the first batch to take it and therefore had the lowest expectations of anyone.

 

Rocket was right to signal that I openly admitted my misadventure with reusing syringes. I hadn't fully understood the risks, and now that I do that's history and won't be repeated. I had heard of the risks of people sharing needles, but didn't realize that in a few hours one's own body's bacteria contamines a syringe and that it can develop at room temperature and then infect you with greater quantities of what's already in you, yeah it's ironic. After surgery for an abscess I am not about to go down that path again. So, to finish my report I will focus on what's unusual about the injections of Foxo4 and am attaching a follow-up picture of the first subQ injection site, that had a strange reaction to the product. The other sites had no reaction other than slightly aching for most of the day after injection, and as they were in the abdomen near the belt line this was uncomfortable although relatively easy to ignore. The blemish around the injection point has since further hardened and darkened since this photo taken on day two. I expect it to form a scab and flake off eventually. Why this happens with Foxo4 and no other drug remains a mystery.

 

 

Today I will be following up with a run of Dasatinib and Quercetin during several days. And to the disappointment of Rocket who thinks I take too much of everything, I will take a much lower dose of Dasatinib than he would. I found 100mg to be too strong for me last time, and I will be limiting my daily intake of Dasatinib to 50mg/day for only a few days. Then I will do EDTA chelation and prepare for my next Stem Cell Infusion.

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil - going on 40 -  LoL

Edited by DareDevil, 12 May 2018 - 08:10 AM.

[stponky]

Adding my report to the list. 42 year old male.

 

I got the FOXO4 DRI in early March but kept it in the freezer until May to try it (100mg).

I was on a compressed schedule so I did all 100mg (10 vials x 10mg/vial) in 3 days. (3 vials / 3 vials / 4 vials).

 

Day -2: I messed up and took 3mg rapamycin even though I had not taken anything 2-3 weeks prior.

Day -1: Held off to let rapa wear down a little.

Day 0: Held off to let rapa wear down a little.

Day 1 (Wed): I ran around 3 miles since the weather was getting nice and I wanted my circulation up. I injected 3 vials the first day, but I did not use enough phosphate buffered saline so it stung. I injected my belly fat and my butt.

Day 2 (Thurs): Ran 3 miles. I used 1 ml saline per 5mg FOXO4 DRI which was a lot better. I have had some hip discomfort from injuring a tendon and pounding from running (2 years ago), and slipping on ice (a year ago) so I targeted that area and also around my chest. Calf muscles sore from running.

Day 3 (Fri): Ran 3 miles. Injected shoulders, quad muscles, belly, but, other hip. Calf muscles still sore.

 

Day 4 (Sat): Done with everything. Woke up early (I think others had the same reaction). Calf muscles still sore.

Day 5 (Sun): Pretty tired. I read that metformin can stress cells which should help FOXO4 DRI work. Took 1000mg morning. 1000mg night. Calf muscles still sore.

Day 6 (Mon). Ran 3 miles. Was able to sprint at end. Took 1000mg metformin.

Day 7 (Tues): Crashed. Super tired. Probably stayed up a little too late before but usually not this tired. Came home slept for 2 hours and had vivid dream.

Day 8 (Wed): Ran 3 miles.

Day 9 (Thurs): Nothing much.

Day 10 (Fri): Walked 3 miles. Calf muscles finally better.

 

Some observations:

1) It took way longer for my calf muscles to recover. Usually around 3 days but in this case about a week.

2) I usually don't get enough sleep (6 1/2 - 7 hours) so I wonder if my strong sleep reaction was FOXO4 DRI working on my brain.

3) My hip feels better but I still feel the tendon issue. The FOXO4 DRI did help my joint discomfort. I hope it stays better as I continue to go through the summer.

4) When I drive, I notice that a slight discomfort in my heart when I stop the car more suddenly. Driving in rush hour is also stressful. I have not noticed this after FOXO4. I have been worried in the back of my mind that something was going wrong with my heart. I am hoping that it remains ok.

 

If I were to do it again:

1) I would try to eat less to stress the cells. I didn't really fast at all.

2) I would do things that stress areas that I want FOXO4 to attack. Ex., if your wrist is bad try stressing the wrist a little to send signals to FOXO4 to clear things out there.

3) Take metformin (or maybe something else is better) throughout for more stress.

 

Overall, I would say it has been positive. I would be willing to try it again.

[OP2040]

We really should have established a small list of easily tracked parameters that everyone can report on.  So far most reports are based on their subjective feelings, or ambiguous and overly complex things like "exercise tolerance" 

 

I hope this is not taken the wrong way as I'm not sure my self-reporting will be any better.  What would constitute a cheap, easy (no doctor visit), universal, relevant and most importantly age-related parameter that people could report a "before and after" on?  Personally, I think the underlying cause of this is that no one, including myself, really wants to track all these potentially scary parameters on a constant basis.  We just want to feel better for the most part.  So an additional criteria might be having a parameter that is "innocuous".   If done properly, exercise tolerance wouldn't even be that bad.  But it has to be measured properly by more than one individual.  Any other candidates for a parameter?

 

Also, this doesn't preclude a long report on our particular, subjective problems as they can certainly be great sources of insight as well.

Edited by OP2040, 14 May 2018 - 03:13 PM.

[OP2040]

I just found that there is actually a home CRP test available on Amazon.   This is an almost perfect parameter to test because a working senolytic therapy should most definitely have a positive effect on inflammation, at least once the senescent cells are washed out.  However, it has two drawbacks.  First, it would be somewhat pricey to do a before and after with this test, ~$130 unless someone can find a cheaper version.  Second, it is not innocuous.  Some people, including myself, probably prefer to remain ignorant about something like this until the time comes when it is needed.  Any thoughts?

 

https://www.amazon.c...P/dp/B01MU56570

 

Edited by OP2040, 14 May 2018 - 03:22 PM.

[DareDevil]

Hi OP2040,

 

Your post makes a lot of sense, however it seems illusory to be able to establish a tangible form of scientific evidence from disparate self-testing in uncontrolled conditions. Surely the task of advancing science is noble, be it "bro-science" as bodybuilders call it or more widely validated explorations. However, for my own purposes, I feel that discussion threads in the Longecity  forums advance our community by  sharing subjective experiences versus by empirical evidence and experimental validation. The latter can be as misleading as are placebo effects, because the framework of evaluation cannot be isolated from many extraneaous factors that might intervene.

 

For example, my experience of Foxo4 is quite different from that of others here - much to my surprise. It could be due to the presence of more stem cells in my bloodstream and tissues, or it could be because I used large quantities of Epitalon for several months on end. Again it might be because of high systemic levels of GDF-11 in my body after taking what Steve Perry considers substantial overdosing.

 

And while we might agree on one or several vectors retained in order to evaluate the effects of a given substance, it will usually serve mostly for the comparison of that given parameter, and not necessarily be pertinent regarding  other effects a drug might have. So I prefer to simply read other people's accounts, and politely take what them with a grain of salt. Your experience may differ, as might your logic and understanding of the processes involved.

 

An exception  might be my far less skeptical read of the feedback here about Foxo4. There was such a consensus that seemed to contradict the rodent studies, that I thought its injection would go totally unnoticed and was a waste of money, time and effort. I took it with an uncharacteristic cynical prejudice. It can however be argued that maybe I had a subconscious desire to contradict others here, to stand out and be noticed. That this could have made me experience what I did? but I seriously doubt this, as I don't particularly like standing out in any cirucumstances. And I already do through my usual Modus Operandi of taking larger doses than most people of several substance.

 

Could it be an imaginary success based upon an intense subconscious wish to rejuvenate quickly? And this to the point of imagining it's actually happening? That would be a more likely motive. Yet I still don't think that's what happened because I am not about to spend large sums of money on stuff that doesn't deliver, and I have cast to the wayside any number of drugs I have tested with the same motivation, due to their unconclusive effects. Today my body still feels different to me from before, it is now several days after ending my Foxo4 3-day cycle. I do feel a bit younger as in more spry and with what feels like more 'dense' and contracted tissues in general. I don't ask anyone to believe me or much less to agree this is factual, I am only relaying this feedback to have it be correlated at some later date to what others may report in turn,

 

It might be simply a combination of my age, over sixty, and having taken the doses only one day apart, making for greater quantities present in the bloodstream during the cycle. This in itself seems to be a better measure of what set me apart from other experimenters. Once others here of a similar age take theirs in one day intervals to have more Foxo4 in their bloodstream and we will have a point of comparison. It is also possible that the mouse to man dosage conversion calculations were in this instance overly conservative, and that daily intake  is better mapped to emulate rodent study that inspired our experimentation.

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil

Edited by DareDevil, 15 May 2018 - 10:35 AM.

[OP2040]

It's not an either/or proposition, we need both.  Subjective experiences are fine and we have a lot of them, but we have almost no objective and comparable experiences.

 

BTW, is anyone else waiting on the 2nd round group buy?  I've tried to contact meatsauce, but he seems to have gone dark.  I'm not too worried yet, and I honestly don't care how long it takes, but would like some reassurance.

[poonja]

I am with you on that.  He did request my address a couple of weeks ago.

[OP2040]

I'll probably get attacked for this, but it needs to be said.  meatsauce has still gone dark.  I'll say it again, I have had no problem waiting, and very appreciative of what looks like a lot of extra, free work he's doing for us.  However, it's really irresponsible not to communicate at all when people have something this importat on the line.  I'd also like to suggest that he went dark exactly when I told him I had access to a lab and the ability to test what he is sending us.  So make of that what you will, but the timing suggests that what many of you may have taken may or may not have even been FOX04-dri.  If he never comes back, I think we can safely make that assumption, and throw this whole project in the trash as far as determining the efficacy of the intervention.

 

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, especially since I'm new here, but I'm starting to get a little pissed. 

[stefan_001]

I'll probably get attacked for this, but it needs to be said.  meatsauce has still gone dark.  I'll say it again, I have had no problem waiting, and very appreciative of what looks like a lot of extra, free work he's doing for us.  However, it's really irresponsible not to communicate at all when people have something this importat on the line.  I'd also like to suggest that he went dark exactly when I told him I had access to a lab and the ability to test what he is sending us.  So make of that what you will, but the timing suggests that what many of you may have taken may or may not have even been FOX04-dri.  If he never comes back, I think we can safely make that assumption, and throw this whole project in the trash as far as determining the efficacy of the intervention.

 

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, especially since I'm new here, but I'm starting to get a little pissed. 

 

The USD amounts are high enough that one should be very carefull. Perhaps a restart with the substance of the same lab that made the material for the study makes more sense.

Edited by stefan_001, 20 May 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[poonja]

I'll probably get attacked for this, but it needs to be said.  meatsauce has still gone dark.  I'll say it again, I have had no problem waiting, and very appreciative of what looks like a lot of extra, free work he's doing for us.  However, it's really irresponsible not to communicate at all when people have something this importat on the line.  I'd also like to suggest that he went dark exactly when I told him I had access to a lab and the ability to test what he is sending us.  So make of that what you will, but the timing suggests that what many of you may have taken may or may not have even been FOX04-dri.  If he never comes back, I think we can safely make that assumption, and throw this whole project in the trash as far as determining the efficacy of the intervention.

 

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, especially since I'm new here, but I'm starting to get a little pissed. 

He has gone dark for me as well.  If I/we have not had meaningful contact soon, those who are owed product or a return of money need to contact him directly (not via message here).  

[Moondancer]

I bought too from MeatSauce to partake in the second group buy.Have not tried to contact him yet, but this sounds worrisome for sure. 

Edited by Moondancer, 20 May 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Moondancer]

Is there a way to get our payment back? I too appreciate Meatsauces initial help and the time he may have spent on this.

However I can't help, but at this stage the current situation makes that I would not feel safe to use anymore what compound may be sent. Not in the least given my already problematic health/illness I would want to be sure what we receive is really FOXO4 D-retro-Inverso. I feel there is more reason to doubt what compound may be sent (that is, if it will still be sent). I paid half January so I did start to get worried, but I was overwhelmed by health issues so I figured I'd just wait.

Edited by Moondancer, 20 May 2018 - 07:00 PM.