848 replies to this topic

[meatsauce]

Hi FOXO Group

 

I wondered if anyone else here was part of the Epitalon / Thymalin group buy as well?

 

I ask as I am part of both the 2nd round of FOXO4 & the Epitalon group buy & recently received what was supposed to be the latter however....

 

I was both surprised & supremely disappointed & wondered about other's experience as it was a good chunk of my very hard earned money I spent & literally received nothing for it.

 

1) I was told the peptide was to be in 10mg vials so that small amounts could be used daily without the 20 day post-reconstitution expiration date kicking in, rendering it useless & instead it came in micro, plastic, unsealed tubes w/ little to nothing inside except small condensation droplets & labels stating 50mg

 

2) Aside from the fact that there is little to no peptide in most of these tiny plastic tubes, there is no way to reconstitute / use the peptide in a sterile manner in the micro-plastic tubes that were sent as there is no way to keep it sealed & no room for bacteriostatic water

 

3) Finally, I did reach out to meatsauce via email 5+ times asking what could be done to rectify the fact that I spent over $600 and have literally no product to show for it & got no useful response

 

As much as I appreciate meatsauce & his efforts to organize these group buys, I am saddened by what has happened & thought it best share this info here, as I do not wish anyone else to have to go through what I have had to.

 

I'd had high hopes for this purchase & FOXO4 both, as I'm sure many here do. However, after this first experience I would be highly suspect about ordering here from him / this vendour (I believe this may be the same vendour as the FOXO4 group buy as well although I cannot be sure) And for anyone else who did order I do hope you had a far more successful experience than I, for I just lost all that I invested with no recourse 

 

Best

 

Its not true that there is little to no peptide in the vials. I looked at all the vials I sent you. The peptide happens to be very dense, Its not always white and fluffy. I've had vials of ipamorein that were just a little dot of peptide.

I'm sorry The epitalon didn't come in glass vials. The supplier was worried they wouldn't get through customs if it was in glass vials I didn't want to risk having it stuck there. With the plastic vial what is best is to add a small amount of sterile water to the vial and then put that in a separate glass vial. Then pull out all the doses in individual syringes and freeze those as use as you go.

 

If I do group buys in the future we are only going to be dealing with US companies. Its gonna cost twice as much probably but its worth it just to deal with it locally.

[Moondancer]

I'd like to get out of this group buy. I don't feel bothered if others disagree with my concern: I have the right to express my concern, after seeing how this evolved the past months. 

 

If people pay hundreds up to nearly a thousand of dollars to buy a peptide, then they should be able to trust they are supplied with a product in accordance with the details that were agreed on at the time of purchase.

MeatSauce, if you decide to use a new supplier, then you first discuss this with others that have paid in the range of 600-900$ for this. These were details/terms that were part of the purchase agreement, about the supplier, the purity of the product, TFA-removal, etc that made people decide to pay these amounts to you. Imho: to just walk with such amounts of money, and decide to do what you see fit without discussing it, is not reliable.

 

I asked specifically if GenScript was the supplier at the time of purchase - this was confirmed. My emails the past period wherein I asked who the new supplier is have been ignored repeatedly. You don't respond here in the thread to the question who the new suplier is. I may be the only one, but I find this disconcerting, and I feel naive getting in this group buy in a time of despair about a chronic disease - seeing what is happening with the money, that to me was a lot.

The details agreed on at the time I made this purchase, have not been complied with.

I don't understand how anyone would still feel they can inject this product, but I surely can't.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Moondancer, 25 June 2018 - 08:11 PM.

[aribadabar]

Then pull out all the doses in individual syringes and freeze those as use as you go.

 

No, you don't.

Once reconstituted it should not be frozen but stored in fridge temps (2-4C) and used up ASAP, preferably within 10 days.

[aribadabar]

Hi FOXO Group

 

I wondered if anyone else here was part of the Epitalon / Thymalin group buy as well?

 

I ask as I am part of both the 2nd round of FOXO4 & the Epitalon group buy & recently received what was supposed to be the latter however....

 

I was both surprised & supremely disappointed & wondered about other's experience as it was a good chunk of my very hard earned money I spent & literally received nothing for it.

 

1) I was told the peptide was to be in 10mg vials so that small amounts could be used daily without the 20 day post-reconstitution expiration date kicking in, rendering it useless & instead it came in micro, plastic, unsealed tubes w/ little to nothing inside except small condensation droplets & labels stating 50mg

 

2) Aside from the fact that there is little to no peptide in most of these tiny plastic tubes, there is no way to reconstitute / use the peptide in a sterile manner in the micro-plastic tubes that were sent as there is no way to keep it sealed & no room for bacteriostatic water

 

3) Finally, I did reach out to meatsauce via email 5+ times asking what could be done to rectify the fact that I spent over $600 and have literally no product to show for it & got no useful response

 

As much as I appreciate meatsauce & his efforts to organize these group buys, I am saddened by what has happened & thought it best share this info here, as I do not wish anyone else to have to go through what I have had to.

 

I'd had high hopes for this purchase & FOXO4 both, as I'm sure many here do. However, after this first experience I would be highly suspect about ordering here from him / this vendour (I believe this may be the same vendour as the FOXO4 group buy as well although I cannot be sure) And for anyone else who did order I do hope you had a far more successful experience than I, for I just lost all that I invested with no recourse 

 

Best

 

1 ) 50mg of Epitalon is indeed a very small amount of lyophilized powder so it's normal to look like a few droplets on the side of the vial. In any case, a hi-res picture of the vial would be helpful.

 

2) Yes, there is no way to reconstitute it in a completely sterile manner. You need to open the plastic vial cap, inject some bac water ( it can hold about 1ml) , close the cap , roll it for a few minutes between your palms to reconstitute the peptide and then pull out the solution into another empty sterile glass vial which can be bought on Amazon and a few other places and extract your daily doses from that vial.

 

3) I highly doubt that you'll have any recourse. This is a group buy, not a retail purchase from a vendor. There are risks coming with these sorts of deals.

 

The bottom line is : you probably got the AMOUNT you paid for but in a packaging that precludes a totally sterile transfer in non-lab conditions so you have to go ahead and run it via 0.2 micron filter if you are concerned about some bacterial contamination from the air entering the solution while performing the reconstitution.

 

Just to be clear - I don't lay blame on you or the group organizer, I just present the facts and show a potential way forward so you are able to use the product you received.

Hope you find this helpful.

 

 

[aribadabar]

 

If people pay hundreds up to nearly a thousand of dollars to buy a peptide, then they should be able to trust they are supplied with a product in accordance with the details that were agreed on at the time of purchase.

MeatSauce, if you decide to use a new supplier, then you first discuss this with others that have paid in the range of 600-900$ for this. These were details/terms that were part of the purchase agreement, about the supplier, the purity of the product, TFA-removal, etc that made people decide to pay these amounts to you. Imho: to just walk with such amounts of money, and decide to do what you see fit without discussing it, is not reliable.

 

If that's indeed the case, Meatsauce did mislead the group. If an important detail such as the supplier needs to be changed , it must be discussed with all the participants prior to engaging the services of another source.

Group buys are joint decisions/agreements, not unilateral picks by the group leader.

I know that it is a huge effort to run a group buy - I lead GBs in another area of life - but transparency is a key when a material change in the original plan is necessary.

Edited by aribadabar, 26 June 2018 - 03:30 PM.

[jdlancaster519]

No, you don't.

Once reconstituted it should not be frozen but stored in fridge temps (2-4C) and used up ASAP, preferably within 10 days.

We're not supposed to subject proteins/peptides to repeated freeze-thaw cycles, but I think creating multiple aliquots from a stock solution and then freezing them for future use is not a big deal. This is not ideal... but this ranks pretty low on the list of risks involved with experimenting on yourself and going through middlemen on the internet to try and save a few bucks. 

 

For info on the handling of proteins/peptides: https://www.sigmaald...nd-storage.html

[poonja]

The epitalon was the least of my interests as I only added that and the thymalin to my order as they seemed to relatively inexpensive.  As of this date, I have not received my FOXO or thymalin.  Extremely concerned as I am out. as of today, over one thousand dollars.  

[triguy]

Hi Guys,

 

Joined just to let you guys know we can easily do this. Would like to caution though that this has so far not been trialled on humans and going forward you'd need to be aware of this fact and all it entails. Carefully consider that fact and try not to dismiss it without due consideration, research and diligence.

 

If youd like, we (pioneering private forum-known on here too) can combine our efforts and do this together. Life preservation/extension, anti aging, cognition enhancements and all sorts of improvements are amongst what we pursue at the cutting edge. The lab has already confirmed it 100%, our price is significantly cheaper, we have several years of experience, expertise and track record to prove our ability, authenticity and credibility including with proteins/peptides, and with systems in place to guarantee we get genuine product and to spec.

 

Any questions, feel free to PM or reply.

 

Thanks

  a.   private forum??

 

b.   are you a Lab?

 

thx

[Rocket]

Hmmm.... Glad I didn't take part in this boondoggle.

 

I've had good results on my health with large doses of liposomal resveratrol.

 

People should read this forum started by RWhigham about SIRT1 activation and senescence...

 

https://www.longecit...d-of-fox04-dri/

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rocket, 29 June 2018 - 10:44 PM.

[OP2040]

Hi everyone they said 80% of it is done and it should be finished in a week.

 

Can we get another update?

[TaiChiKid]

I was in on the first batch and was waiting for other things to wash out of my system before trying FOXO4-DR1 recently.  I am also awaiting follow up blood parameters to post before and after.  I report some measureable changes in lower systolic and diastolic pressures.

 

While I await bloodwork which I will have by next month, here is an article on senescent biomarkers (albeit in mice....):  https://www.frontier...2018.00059/full

Edited by TaiChiKid, 12 July 2018 - 02:47 AM.

[triguy]

HELLO

 

   .......MAY I JOIN THE GROUP BUY???

 

 

THX

[Beetlejuice]

Hi Meatsauce, how is the previous order for FOXO4-DRI going? I’m interested in this but first order first?

[poonja]

Not going well as all!!!!

[Moondancer]

So is everyone just planning to let this go? And let someone deal with their hard earned money in a seemingly fraudulent way?

 

I am astonished. 

[Moondancer]

This is the response I received from Ryan, at May the 21st (2 months back in other words), after enquiring a few times per email what was up with the group order.

 

"[...] Everything Is ok. Sorry I haven't been active online I will update everyone today. Genscript wanted to charge more for the second order and they were going to take too much time. I tested a sample from another supplier and it checked out so I placed the order along with epitalon. There was some miscommunication and they didn't start the foxo4 dri order else I would have had it by now. They are about to deliver the epitalon and are currently working on the foxo4dri. I'm very sorry for the delay but I assure you it is coming soon. [...]"

 

Indeed he posted a response in this thread too. But he didn't inform the other members that partook in the group buy that he had changed suppliers, it appears. Just like he hadn't informed me prior to doing so. My thought was actually that he changed suppliers not necessarily because Genscript raised their prices (it could be the case, but I have no clue whether that is the case). My thought was that Ryan potentially wanted to earn more money selling us the peptide and thus searched for a source that was cheaper without informing us, without discussing it with us. I wondered if perhaps, since he used the FOXO4-dri of the first batch himself, Ryan still ensured the quality was okay of that first group order, and for the second batch switched to a cheaper source of debatable/questionable quality without informing anyone. ( Of course that is pure speculation, but not completely unimaginable after how this proceeded.) For all I know the second supplier was found on Alibaba. Ryan has never responded to my question who the new supplier of the second batch was: not here in this thread, neither per email.

 

I'm disappointed by the naivety - of which I am guilty too. For months I wanted to express my concern, but there were a few members still stating Ryan meant well, etc. and you were almost made to feel guilty yourself if you expressed your doubt. Interestingly enough by membes who didn't even partake in this second group buy, claiming we had no reason to express worry! Come on now, Ryan disappeared for many months, shows up once in a blue moon to state everything is fine. I don't know about you, but he doesn't respond to any of my emails at all wherein I ask about the group buy. There is no reason or argument for this anymore.

I paid in January: 6 months ago. He dealt with this fraudulently. We are all looking at it, sitting back and yawning, and letting him do as he sees fit. Really? Because I don't plan to do that.

 

Perhaps for a start it would help if all persons that partook in the second FOXO4-dri as well as the Epitalon group buy would mention: 

 

1) What amount they paid Ryan

2) At what date they paid Ryan

3) By what means they paid Ryan (Paypal? Transferwise? Any other means?)

4) When and by what means they last communicated to Ryan and if and what he responded. I have an email address that Ryan used to respond to me sporadically before he went silent, as well as a mailing address. If anyone has a telephone number, I think it is completely reasonable to share it with those members of which Ryan at this stage is still walking around with a large sum of their money. 

 

Edited by Moondancer, 20 July 2018 - 06:54 AM.

[smithx]

Not that it necessarily means anything, but the domain name he used in email appears to be owned by a Chinese "boutique domain service" site:

https://www.miduobao.com/

 

Odd, if nothing else.

[TaiChiKid]

I would like to suggest that any group buys should only be bought into if they are organized by an active poster to this forum who has been a member for five? years.  Other than those 'credentials' you take more of a chance...

[OP2040]

So is everyone just planning to let this go? And let someone deal with their hard earned money in a seemingly fraudulent way?

 

I am astonished. 

Well, we know who he is and even where he lives, so... 

 

I have to conclude from everything that has happened, that the people who purchased in the first round didn't get what they ordered anyway.  The minute I told him I was going to test what was delivered to me, the stonewalling and silence began.  What else could a reasonable person conclude?

 

I'll say it again, I don't mind long waits and inconvenience.  That's almost to be expected given the scenario we are dealing with.  But the lack of communication is unacceptable.

[Moondancer]

Personally the lack of transparence is unacceptable to me too. Seemingly changing suppliers without discussing it with anyone that participated in the group order prior to doing so. We bought this peptide with the understanding it would be supplied by a specific supplier, according to certain specifics.

The lack of transparence when it comes to informing the members of the group buy who exactly the new supplier is. He has been unwilling to answer to those questions. The lack of transparence when it comes to the specifics, quality, price of the product bought. He should be able to post a copy of an invoice that shows what was bought and where. As I said before, I don't mind paying something extra to the person that arranges for the group buy. After all it takes some effort. But: with transparency. Not just doing as he sees fit at the expense of others that trusted him.

 

Brings me at the second point that is unacceptable to me: the 'doing as I see fit'-approach. If you (apparently) change suppliers, you first discuss it with other members to see if they agree, prior to deciding to do so.

Then there is the silence/stonewalling, which is unacceptable. 

 

I'm growing increasingly angry, I can't deny. On a personal level I took part in this group buy out of despair about a chronic debilitating disease I acquired at a fairly young age. The future is not looking optimistic in the least currently. Of course to try FOXO4-dri is a wild guess, and a lot may argue not the wisest attempt. But it was my decision to try it, full well realizing I could not afford some other 'therapeutic options' I may want to try too as a result. This was a lot of money to me, and it was spent out of some despair and a bit of hope. I paid Ryan in January. That Ryan has dealt with this money in such ways the past months, has made me sick in my stomach. My disease has gotten progressively and irreversibly worse the past months and really: I don't want to deal with the BS and stress of someone running off with my payment on top of it. 

Someone mentioned Ryan has an interest in these peptides/substances apparently since he hoped to be able to keep living the college boy lifestyle. If that is true, that is great: but not with money from others that he acquired in such ways. 

 

 

Edited by Moondancer, 21 July 2018 - 11:21 PM.

[extendcel]

I did find it suspicious that a Chinese company I've done business with gave me the same timeline for the production of foxo4dri. The explanation was that the US producer uses a lab in China. Eventually they did have it in stock too while you guys were still waiting for your batches. Honestly there would've been less risk going with the chinese seller than through all the middlemen since the price wasn't much different.

[Madfern]

Sorry to hear about all the troubles many people here have with the group buy.  Since I am in Australia, the group buy was never an option for me.

 

The explanation was that the US producer uses a lab in China.

 

And further back in this thread:

 

The supplier was worried they wouldn't get through customs if it was in glass vials ...

 

This is completely inconsistent with buying from a reputable, American company.

It is however consistent with an individual importing a substance which might attract attention by customs or quarantine officials.

 

FWIW, I have imported 200mg FOXO4-DRI from a particular supplier in China for my own use.  I diverted a 1mg FOXO4-DRI sample for MS/MS testing by an independent lab which I found via ScienceExchange. The lab confirmed the identity of the compound and identified some typical residues including TFA salts.  The supplier's batch test data also matched the lab's test results.

 

Subsequently, I bought 2g Epitalon in 20 vials from the same supplier.  They supplied in non-sterile, well sealed, plastic vials (same as the FOXO4-DRI).

 

... unsealed tubes w/ little to nothing inside except small condensation droplets & labels stating 50mg ...

I can confirm that this particular peptide looks like a small, translucent, waxy drop at the bottom or side of the vial.

It took about 8ml of DPBS to dissolve 100mg of the epitalon.  I diluted further to 5mg/ml and sterilized the solution by filtering with a 0.22 micron PES syringe filter straight into a presealed sterile vial.  I poked a second needle into the vial (and bent it out of the way) to let air escape during filling.

 

Based on the trust previously established with the supplier, I took the risk of injecting Epitalon (10mg/day for 10 days) without independent testing.  There were no adverse effects, no lumps, no evidence of inflammation, no lasting soreness.  At this stage I do not have any other results to report.

 

The FOXO4-DRI is still in the freezer -- needs more research and planning.

[Moondancer]

Madfern, would you want to mention the name of the supplier?

And what price you approximately paid for the FOXO4-dri (and perhaps, if you know, what prices would come down to if a large amount is bought)? Thanks!

[Madfern]

... there is no way to reconstitute it in a completely sterile manner. 

 

Yes there is.  As I explained in another post in this thread:

 

... and sterilized the solution by filtering with a 0.22 micron PES syringe filter straight into a presealed sterile vial. ...

 

Sterilization by micro filtering strips out bacteria.  The molecules which we are interested in here will pass through 0.22 micron holes.

The filter material should have low affinity to proteins, thus I chose PES.

 

You still have to do your due dilligence to minimize exposure to pyrogens (endotoxins) and viruses.

Edited by Madfern, 23 July 2018 - 02:39 AM.

[aribadabar]

Yes there is.  As I explained in another post in this thread:

 

No, there is not.

The plastic vial comes with a plastic cap (not rubber like the glass vials) that needs to be removed so air impurities/airborne pathogens may potentially enter the vial.

The plastic cap is fairly hard to be penetrated with 28+ gauge needle if you try to simulate the rubber cap method.

 

What you quoted is what I also said which is a SECOND step in the transfer from non-sterile to sterile vial.

Edited by aribadabar, 23 July 2018 - 03:25 AM.

[extendcel]

No, there is not.
The plastic vial comes with a plastic cap (not rubber like the glass vials) that needs to be removed so air impurities/airborne pathogens may potentially enter the vial.
The plastic cap is fairly hard to be penetrated with 28+ gauge needle if you try to simulate the rubber cap method.

That doesn't matter. You reconstitute it in the vial and then draw it into a syringe. Then run it through a 0.22 micron filter into a sterile sealed vial. This process filters out pathogens except small viruses which should not be in the sample in significant quantities. It is sufficient enough to sterilize the solution.

It doesn't address endotoxins and soluble contaminants, but that would be based on the producer.

Edited by extendcel, 23 July 2018 - 03:34 AM.

[aribadabar]

That doesn't matter. You reconstitute it in the vial and then draw it into a syringe. Then run it through a 0.22 micron filter into a sterile sealed vial. This process filters out pathogens except small viruses which should not be in the sample in significant quantities. It is sufficient to sterilize the solution.

It doesn't address endotoxins and soluble contaminants, but that would be based on the producer.

 

Right and it is what I said in that same post he partially quoted and omitted the filtering part.

1) Non-sterile reconstitution due to lack of air-tight environment followed by

2) Sterilization filtering

3) Sterilized Transfer into a sterile vial

 

So sterile reconstitution (step 1) is in fact impossible which is what I said and what he quoted.

[extendcel]

Right and it is what I said in that same post he partially quoted and omitted the filtering part.
1) Non-sterile reconstitution due to lack of air-tight environment followed by
2) Sterilization filtering
3) Sterilized Transfer into a sterile vial

So sterile reconstitution (step 1) is in fact impossible which is what I said and what he quoted.

Right, I just read your full post. For anyone else reading, non sterile reconstitution doesn't matter because the solution will be sterilized in later steps.

[Madfern]

What you quoted is what I also said which is a SECOND step in the transfer from non-sterile to sterile vial.

 

Apologies.  Missed that when I first read it.

[Madfern]

Madfern, would you want to mention the name of the supplier?

And what price you approximately paid for the FOXO4-dri (and perhaps, if you know, what prices would come down to if a large amount is bought)?

 

Mentioning the supplier name might cause undue attention by overzealous officials.

However, if you search Alibaba the supplier will be prominent in the results.

Cost was USD1900 for 200mg (in 10 well-sealed plastic vials, but probably not sterile).

I took 2 samples of 1mg each and sent them to a lab (found on ScienceExpress) for MS/MS analysis.  That added USD300 plus USD75 for shipping.

 

I am sure the $/g would come down for a larger quantity ($5500 for 1g was mentioned somewhere) but a larger shipment is likely to attract more attention by customs and quarantine officials.  I.e.they are more likely to use their limited resources on larger, commercial quantity shipments.  As far as I know, importing peptides is a grey area which is wide open to interpretation and there is a non-zero chance that the shipment is confiscated.