164 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

But you can get brocoli powder and brocolli seed powder on Amazon, are these equivalent dealing with the stuff we're talking about here?

[WillNitschke]

Dr. Rhonda Patrick has made the argument that a pure supplement will have limited bio-availability, hence not good enough.

[ChristineH]

I've posted many times on this forum about the pros and cons of various forms of sulforaphane.  To save my time, I am simply posting the link to an article I wrote some time ago.  https://www.cell-log...g-sulforaphane/

 

It explains the differences between active and inert broccoli sprout supplements.  For a more detailed scientific appraisal, please refer to my Review paper found here:  https://www.hindawi....l/2016/7857186/

 

As for referring to a 'pure' supplement, what does that mean?  I think it means an inert broccoli seed extract which is devoid of myrosinase and contains only the glucoraphanin precursor.

 

 

[GABAergic]

christine, you are just advertising your product in there.

[ChristineH]

christine, you are just advertising your product in there.

Ok - but very hard not to when people say they can get an appropriate product on Amazon.  A 'seed extract' and a 100% whole broccoli sprout supplement are not the same thing.  Only the latter yields significant levels of sulforaphane.  If you refer back to my many comments on this forum, they are primarily about sharing information on a subject about which I have dedicated a number of years of active research.  

[WillNitschke]

I've posted many times on this forum about the pros and cons of various forms of sulforaphane.  To save my time, I am simply posting the link to an article I wrote some time ago.  https://www.cell-log...g-sulforaphane/

 

It explains the differences between active and inert broccoli sprout supplements.  For a more detailed scientific appraisal, please refer to my Review paper found here:  https://www.hindawi....l/2016/7857186/

 

As for referring to a 'pure' supplement, what does that mean?  I think it means an inert broccoli seed extract which is devoid of myrosinase and contains only the glucoraphanin precursor.

 

In the link you provided it is written:

"be equally wary of products described as ‘extracts’ of either broccoli seed or sprouts. ‘Extracts’ must be
produced in a way that completely destroys the activity of the myrosinase enzyme."

This seems to be a typo, as the rest of your article claims myronsinse is essential.

I also did a comparison and the product I've purchased on iHerb from Best Naturals is about 5X cheaper than yours, has more active ingredient (1000mg versus 700mg) and has 120 capsules versus 80. Your promotional material claims your extract is better because you've got special knowledge that other supplement providers don't have. Maybe so. But it seems to be a 'trust us' type argument.

Edited by WillNitschke, 21 May 2019 - 04:09 AM.

[ChristineH]

Before you level 'trust us' arguments at me, let's collate the facts.

 

1.  There is no typo.  The products marked as 'extracts' have had their myrosinase enzyme deactivated as part of the processing - check the patent to see this yourself.

2. You cannot compare 2 products based on the quantity of powder in the capsule.  What matters is the Sulforaphane Yield per capsule.  I can tell you that our 700 mg Enduracell capsule yields around 14 mg per capsule.  How much sulforaphane does the other product yield?  1000 mg of a low-yielding supplement cannot be compared with a 700 mg high-yielding supplement.

3. Please calculate the cost per mg sulforaphane yield to compare the cost.  I dont know which iHerb product you refer to - but can you identify how many mg of sulforaphane yield this product yields?  If it is an extract and not a whole broccoli sprout supplement, it will have no myrosinase enzyme and therefore zero sulforaphane yield.

4.  When I say myrosinase is essential, it is essential in all product that claim to produce sulforaphane.  EnduraCell has retained the enzyme during production; when you ingest the product, the myrosinase enzyme converts the glucoraphanin precursor to the sulforaphane.  An extract cannot produce any sulforaphane of itself because it has no myrosinase.

5.  If others are cheaper, then I'd suggest you need to compare apples with apples.  The best way to do that is to see how many my sulforaphane the product yields (if any)

6.  I am NOT claiming we have "special knowledge that other supplement providers don't have"

7. What I am claiming is that our company, Cell-Logic, has implemented the published peer-reviewed sulforaphane science to produce a product that optimises sulforaphane yield.  If competitors studied the science in the same depth, they may have been able to produce a product that matches our sulforaphane yield.

 

Please post the sulforaphane yield of the product you are using for comparison so we can all see that what I am saying IS CORRECT!

 

Edited by ChristineH, 21 May 2019 - 04:30 AM.

[WillNitschke]

Best Naturals Broccoli Sprout extract is claiming a .3 yield but I'm using Dr. Rhonda Patrick's .2 conversion, which would therefore yield a theoretical 12mcg per capsule.

What you're claiming as far as I can see, is that all or most 'extract' supplements have no active myrosinase in them, but your product does. Both your product and the product I've selected as per the ingredient list, claim to be made of Broccoli Sprout Powder... So whatever everyone else is doing to produce that powder destroys myrosinase but your preparation process does not, correct?

(I see with your explanation the text was not a typo, just very badly worded and confusing.)

Because I don't trust supplement companies or at least have little faith in them, I'm trying to eat foods rich in sulforaphane such as brussel sprouts. I've calculated 132g yields 60mcg of the active ingredient. The supplement is the bonus. The idea here is if I eat the original food which is also rich in fiber, then I should be getting myrosinase also... at least in theory.

Edited by WillNitschke, 21 May 2019 - 04:49 AM.

[ChristineH]

I understand your cynicism regarding supplement companies as many have a bad reputation.  We are not one of them - but you are at liberty to believe my opinion - or not.

 

Let me clarify your thinking.  You say, "Best Naturals Broccoli Sprout extract is claiming a .3 yield but I'm using Dr. Rhonda Patrick's .2 conversion, which would therefore yield a theoretical 12mcg per capsule."

 

You are claiming 12 micrograms - EnduraCell capsules are 14 milligrams which is equal to 14,000 mcg.  That may explain in part the price difference!!!

 

Brussels' sprouts are not a rich source of sulforaphane.  Broccoli sprouts are.  And 60 mcg sulforaphane is next to nothing.  are you sure you meant to write mcg?

 

I dont know Rhonda's rule-of-thumb conversion.  This may be her own estimate.

 

As for the broccoli sprout supplements with no myrosinase - yes that IS correct.  These supplements are typically broccoli seed - not even sprouted - and the enzyme is deactivated before extraction of the glucoraphanin precursor.  They usually list 30 mg broccoli seed extract - or 30 mg SGS - or 30 mg sulforaphane glucosinolate - or 30 mg TrueBroc.

 

EnduraCell by contrast is made from seeds that are sprouted for several days and then dried - absolutely nothing added and nothing but water removed.  And yes, surprising as it may seem, a company in Australia HAS worked out how to do this.  

[ChristineH]

Best Naturals Broccoli Sprout extract is claiming a .3 yield but I'm using Dr. Rhonda Patrick's .2 conversion, which would therefore yield a theoretical 12mcg per capsule.

What you're claiming as far as I can see, is that all or most 'extract' supplements have no active myrosinase in them, but your product does. Both your product and the product I've selected as per the ingredient list, claim to be made of Broccoli Sprout Powder... So whatever everyone else is doing to produce that powder destroys myrosinase but your preparation process does not, correct?

(I see with your explanation the text was not a typo, just very badly worded and confusing.)

Because I don't trust supplement companies or at least have little faith in them, I'm trying to eat foods rich in sulforaphane such as brussel sprouts. I've calculated 132g yields 60mcg of the active ingredient. The supplement is the bonus. The idea here is if I eat the original food which is also rich in fiber, then I should be getting myrosinase also... at least in theory.

 

I see we are both in Australia. Seriously, if you'd like to chat about this by phone, I am happy to do so.  I am not on this forum to drive sales - but as a sulforaphane researcher, I am very interested in ensuring that people are well-informed.  The labels are very confusing and I know of many cases where very sick people are taking inactive supplements believing they will provide the disease-preventive benefits they have read about for sulforaphane.  This is so concerning that there are other scientists in this field who try to get the correct message to the people who most need it.

 

I have now looked at the product to which you are referring.  As a US supplement, a serve size refers to a daily dose; in this case, 2 capsules.  So 1000 mg is actually 2 x 500 mg capsules.  The back label states 0.3% sulforaphane so at 500  mg per capsule,  that converts to 1.5 mg per capsule.  When one looks at the published clinical trials on sulforaphane, the typical daily dose is 20 mg.  One would therefore need to take 13 capsules daily to achieve this amount.

 

It seems that the one you are looking at is not an extract - it does contain some myrosinase to be able to produce even 1.5 mg per capsule.  It states 6% glucosinolates - that is not very useful information as it is only part of this (the glucoraphanin) that is capable of yielding sulforaphane - they dont list this.

 

I would suggest that this product is probably using a food-grade powder, not a nutraceutical-grade and this would explain why it is so cheap!

 

I hope that clarifies a few things you were querying.

[WillNitschke]

Sorry I had recheck my numbers on this:

The claim is 1000mg of broccoli sprout extract yields 6% glucosinolates which is 60mg x .2 = 12mg. Not 12mcg. My bad, sorry.

 

The data I've found is that 44g of brussel sprouts yields 104mg of glucosinolates or therefore 20.8mg of sulforaphane.

This would translate into .47mg of sulphorapahme per 1g of brussel sprouts

1g of fresh brocolli sprouts yields 0.425mg of sulforophane.

 

Here is an example of a content list that I'm using:

http://www.drchuang....ealth-benefits/

So either you are incorrect, as brussel sprouts are a richer source of this molecule or my sources are wrong. However, if I'm wrong, Dr. Rhonda Patrick is wrong, because she is working off the same numbers as me.

 

[WillNitschke]

BTW, thank you for your time. I do appreciate your responses on this. You've clarified several things for me. I need more time to digest some of your other information and I'll get back to you on that. The 1000mg is the serving size, not the capable size. This effectively doubles the price per dose. Thanks for pointing that out, I missed that!

[ChristineH]

I see we are both in Australia. Seriously, if you'd like to chat about this by phone, I am happy to do so.  I am not on this forum to drive sales - but as a sulforaphane researcher, I am very interested in ensuring that people are well-informed.  The labels are very confusing and I know of many cases where very sick people are taking inactive supplements believing they will provide the disease-preventive benefits they have read about for sulforaphane.  This is so concerning that there are other scientists in this field who try to get the correct message to the people who most need it.

 

I have now looked at the product to which you are referring.  As a US supplement, a serve size refers to a daily dose; in this case, 2 capsules.  So 1000 mg is actually 2 x 500 mg capsules.  The back label states 0.3% sulforaphane so at 500  mg per capsule,  that converts to 1.5 mg per capsule.  When one looks at the published clinical trials on sulforaphane, the typical daily dose is 20 mg.  One would therefore need to take 13 capsules daily to achieve this amount.

 

It seems that the one you are looking at is not an extract - it does contain some myrosinase to be able to produce even 1.5 mg per capsule.  It states 6% glucosinolates - that is not very useful information as it is only part of this (the glucoraphanin) that is capable of yielding sulforaphane - they dont list this.

 

I would suggest that this product is probably using a food-grade powder, not a nutraceutical-grade and this would explain why it is so cheap!

 

I hope that clarifies a few things you were querying.

Could you look at my calculations above? It's not the glucosinolates that you use for your calculation.  The label says standardised to 6% glucosinolates and 0.3% sulforaphane.  This means 0.3% of the total powder, not the glucosinolates.  The glucosinolates are meaningless in this calculation because hey dont tell you how much of this is made up of the glucoraphanin and that is still not useful if the product is low in myrosinase enzyme.

 

Therefore for a 500 mg capsule, it is 500 mg x 0.3% = 1.5 mg.  

 

Broccoli sprouts are by far the highest sulforaphane-yielding vegetable - there is next to nothing in the scientific literature about Brussels sprouts.   Where did you find those values which seem also to refer to glucosinolates which is not a meaningful starting point?

 

I cant see any relevant data on the link you posted - who is Dr Chuang? The 'About' section doesn't refer to any credentials or research.

 

I simply cant support your calculations, wherever they have come from.

[WillNitschke]

Those are the numbers cited by Dr. Rhonda Patrick also. What is the original source for these numbers? Sorry, I thought you were the expert...

"Broccoli sprouts are by far the highest sulforaphane-yielding vegetable..."

I have a problem with you making this assertion when you just told me you know little or nothing about other vegetables such as Brussel Sprouts. I hope you see your statement is illogical.

 

[ChristineH]

Those are the numbers cited by Dr. Rhonda Patrick also. What is the original source for these numbers? Sorry, I thought you were the expert...

"Broccoli sprouts are by far the highest sulforaphane-yielding vegetable..."

I have a problem with you making this assertion when you just told me you know little or nothing about other vegetables such as Brussel Sprouts. I hope you see your statement is illogical.

 

It's not that I dont know much about Brussels Sprouts.  No-one does and this is because there is very little published in the scientific literature. 

 

Brussels Sprouts and Broccoli Sprouts are totally different plants.  Because sulforaphane is the highest sulforaphane-yielding crucifer, there are now about 2000 papers published on this remarkable plant.  By comparison, there is so little published on Brussels sprouts that we simply dont have a way to compare them.  Using glucosinolates is a rule-of-thumb 'guesstimate' that we cannot rely on.  It's just that - a guess!

 

As a cruciferous vegetable, the more the better!  and I have no issue with the value of Brussels sprouts as a good vegetable choice.  BUT..... if you want to look at the clinical trials done on crucifers and see if you can match the 20 mg daily doses many of the trials have effectively used, you need to look at the Broccoli sprouts research.  Of the 2000 papers now published, a number of these are clinical trials and this is what clinicians use to evaluate a product to prescribe for a patient.

[GABAergic]

christine i already brought broccomax and i cannot order anything until i finish them, but maybe you can send me a sample of your product and ill do comparison, thanks.

[ironfistx]

So is someone saying we have sulphoraphane in kale now?

Edited by ironfistx, 23 May 2019 - 07:50 PM.

[ironfistx]

Bros I'm confused. There are a few products online that mention they contain this with a very expensive one from Thorne manufacturer. I simply want to know what to get. I enjoy many posts by christineh. I take up to 3 broccomax a day.

[ChristineH]

Bros I'm confused. There are a few products online that mention they contain this with a very expensive one from Thorne manufacturer. I simply want to know what to get. I enjoy many posts by christineh. I take up to 3 broccomax a day.

 

Which is the Thorne product?  I can comment if you like so you know if you are getting a product delivering adequate sulforaphane.  BroccoMax claim 8 mg per capsule, so 8 of these gives you around 24 mg daily.  The lower level for the available clinical trial data shows the starting dose at around 18-20 mg daily.

[WillNitschke]

All cruciferous vegetables contain precursor molecules that produce sulforaphane when crushed. The question is, how much do you have to eat to get the estimated dosage, and I did some testing on that, and Kale is not a realistic option, given the quantity you'd have to eat every day.

[ChristineH]

So is someone saying we have sulphoraphane in kale now?

 

Kale contains glucoraphanin which is the inactive precursor to sulforaphane when acted on by myrosinase.  However, the glucoraphanin in kale is only about 10% of that in broccoli, so even if myrosinase is active, the sulforaphane derived from kale is minimal by comparison.

[WillNitschke]

"Because sulforaphane is the highest sulforaphane-yielding crucifer, there are now about 2000 papers published on this remarkable plant.  By comparison, there is so little published on Brussels sprouts that we simply dont have a way to compare them."

The way you compare them is to determine the sulforaphane content in each vegetable. Either sulforaphane is the molecule of interest or it is not. if it is not, then there is something unique about broccoli sprouts, and I've seen no evidence of that. Your argument is a bit like claiming (hypothetically) that nobody should bother doing lower body resistance training because all the studies have been done on upper body resistance training, hence there is "no way to compare" the benefits. That's not how science works.

[ChristineH]

All cruciferous vegetables contain precursor molecules that produce sulforaphane when crushed. The question is, how much do you have to eat to get the estimated dosage, and I did some testing on that, and Kale is not a realistic option, given the quantity you'd have to eat every day.

 

That's not quite correct.  All crucifers contain glucosinolates and one of the molecules in this family is glucoraphanin.  The latter is the only one that produces sulforaphane.  Sulforaphane is classified as n isothiocyanate.

 

What is correct however is that all crucifers contain glucosinolates and all glucosinolates break down via myrosinase to produce an isothiocyanate.  Not all isothiocyanates have been researched for their health-promoting effects - and some actually are considered harmful (like goitrins that can be harmful to the thyroid)

 

Long story short:

 

1.  Glucoraphanin (a member of the glucosinolate family) --> sulforaphane (a member of the isothiocyanate family)

 

2.  Measuring glucosinolates is not useful as we dont know how much glucoraphanin is part of this.

 

3.  This is confusing when a supplement lists glucosinolates - and not glucoraphanin.  Is this a deliberate ploy by the manufacturer to hide a low glucoraphanin and therefore a low sulforaphane yield - or is it simply poor knowledge of the nature of sulforaphane yield?

[ChristineH]

"Because sulforaphane is the highest sulforaphane-yielding crucifer, there are now about 2000 papers published on this remarkable plant.  By comparison, there is so little published on Brussels sprouts that we simply dont have a way to compare them."

The way you compare them is to determine the sulforaphane content in each vegetable. Either sulforaphane is the molecule of interest or it is not. if it is not, then there is something unique about broccoli sprouts, and I've seen no evidence of that. Your argument is a bit like claiming (hypothetically) that nobody should bother doing lower body resistance training because all the studies have been done on upper body resistance training, hence there is "no way to compare" the benefits. That's not how science works.

 

Will, are you a scientist?  Because I am  - and I am really tiring of your snide and dismissive remarks and failure to read my detailed explanations to help you understand the science of sulforaphane, which in fact, is my specialty.  (my PhD thesis was on sulforaphane)

 

Is it because my company manufactures a sulforaphane-yielding broccoli sprout supplement that you assume that my contribution to this forum is just a ploy to sell product?  I have occasionally mentioned my product when a question from a member requires it - but surely, even you can see the greater part of my commentary on this forum is clearly to provide information to others seeking clarification. 

 

Would I have gone to so much trouble trying to help you understand what labels do and dont tell us - and how to determine the sulforaphane yield of a vegetable?  Would I have offered to chat to you by phone (since we are in the same country) to help clarify where your calculations are leading you to incorrect conclusions if I simply wanted to sell a product to one person?  Of course not!  A few sales of product as a result of this forum are neither here nor there to me.  

 

So, can we call a truce?  If you don't like my commentary, that's fine - but please just let it go.

Edited by ChristineH, 23 May 2019 - 10:51 PM.

[GABAergic]

Which is the Thorne product?  I can comment if you like so you know if you are getting a product delivering adequate sulforaphane.  BroccoMax claim 8 mg per capsule, so 8 of these gives you around 24 mg daily.  The lower level for the available clinical trial data shows the starting dose at around 18-20 mg daily.

 

so you will need about 7 caps of broccomax to get the studied minimal dose of 18mg? well, that will be quite costly. your product is very costly too. what is it that its so expensive to manufacture this?

also, im curious why you completely ignored me earlier when i specifically addressed you and asked if i can compare the two products? they must differ by a lot in taste, smell, looks or what exactly is the reason for not helping me test your product in comparison??

[ironfistx]

Which is the Thorne product? I can comment if you like so you know if you are getting a product delivering adequate sulforaphane. BroccoMax claim 8 mg per capsule, so 8 of these gives you around 24 mg daily. The lower level for the available clinical trial data shows the starting dose at around 18-20 mg daily.

Look for Thorne crucera now I don't know if we can post merchandise.

[ironfistx]

Might it be best to take these peridocially. So if we're taking 8 BroccoMax per day are we wanting to do that constantly?

[ironfistx]

But whichever ingredients are in BroccoMax they do taste good, I put the ingredients from a pill in hot water to drink.

[ChristineH]

Interesting that it tastes good.  Typically a whole broccoli sprout has a very strong broccoli taste. That's why most people prefer to take the capsule and not the powder.

 

For a 'extract' product such as BroccoMax, it is not a sprouted product.  It is made by a process that extracts the glucoraphanin precursor from the seed.  One might assume that components with the strong taste are part of what is removed during extraction.  

[ChristineH]

so you will need about 7 caps of broccomax to get the studied minimal dose of 18mg? well, that will be quite costly. your product is very costly too. what is it that its so expensive to manufacture this?

also, im curious why you completely ignored me earlier when i specifically addressed you and asked if i can compare the two products? they must differ by a lot in taste, smell, looks or what exactly is the reason for not helping me test your product in comparison??

 

I assume you are following this thread and if so, you will have seen my reply earlier to WillNitschke  where I said that I am tiring of his snide (and accusatory) remarks.  Your messages to me are equally offensive.  I hadn't realised I had overlooked a message of yours - BUT let it be said that I will continue to 'ignore' you - as you claim - until you cut the aggressive, demanding, suspicious and accusatory tone.  

 

If you want evidence-based answers to your questions, you will need to change your tune and treat me as respectfully as you would expect members of this forum and elsewhere to treat you.

 

And in case you haven't yet 'got it', I have nothing to hide - I am a scientist who specialises in sulforaphane research and I am happy to share my knowledge if it will help others.  The in-depth knowledge gained in my sulforaphane research has enabled me to produce a broccoli sprout product which is unsurpassed in its Sulforaphane Yield.  Do you really think that a company whose main focus is on educating clinicians in Nutrigenomics really cares whether it sells one or two bottles from a forum such as this?  Of course not!

 

I don't have to answer your demands - and if I inadvertently missed your question, that doesn't allow you to conclude that I have an ulterior motive.  

 

So, grow up and behave like an adult - not a bratty child!