164 replies to this topic

[ChristineH]

Might it be best to take these peridocially. So if we're taking 8 BroccoMax per day are we wanting to do that constantly?

 

Many lifestyle factors activate Nrf2, the cellular 'switch' that produces the beneficial compounds.  Exercise is amongst these factors. So, it you want to take your capsules periodically and then take a break, perhaps a few weeks of solid - but not exhaustive exercise - will continue the benefits.  As we get older, Nrf2 activity slows down anyway, so depending on your age group, you may or may not wish to keep the Nrf2 activation happening continuously.

[ChristineH]

Look for Thorne crucera now I don't know if we can post merchandise.

This is a broccoli seed extract which contains 50 mg of broccoli seed extract and no myrosinase.  The seed extract means it contains only the glucoraphanin and no enzyme.  Therefore it does not directly produce any sulforaphane.

 

Glucoraphanin + Myrosinase --> Sulforaphane.  You can see that without the myrosinase, the product doesnt produce any sulforaphane.

 

There is a small amount of conversion that may occur in the gut if you have healthy microbiota.  However, even at its best, you will only obtain about 10% of the sulforaphane you would get if the product contained the enzyme.

 

Products which are produced from seed extracts simply wont do what you expect.  This is why the new version of BroccoMax has added in some myrosinase.

[GABAergic]

christine, i dont think, or tried to in a any way to be rude to you. and you didnt really point out specifics where i might have been. but i think i understand you are defensive because i was asking you questions at the same time another member was bothering you with his and he was coming off as a bit arrogant which might have set you up and therefore caused you to ignore me completely until you thought i was bothersome enough to respond. but yeah, i just wanted some help with your product, i was just curious about it but nevermind now. i do this a lot btw where i review and compare products and its not just you.

[GABAergic]

btw i checked your website again, you are selling Glisodin (again quite high in price) but ive taken this stuff for months before for its proposed benefits and after i finished it, at about 3 months use, ive experienced absolutely no benefits for it claims to do. even after i did blood work to see if its something i cannot feel, there were nothing of interest to report.

IM NOT BEING RUDE, I AM JUST MENTIONING THIS.

I wish to be informative as possible for everyone to benefit some way or another. perhaps people who sell this will take a note too, hopefully.

[ironfistx]

But there are a lot of products that claim to have the ingredient here.  Considering I don't know anything about them, I am going to place some here so we can have a discussion about this.

 

mods I am not promoting anything I just want to learn more about this supplement. The reason being so we can figure out which is the best.

 

So citizens, we've got Carlysle:

 

 

When I looked at the label this said 400mcg of sulphoraphane.

 

pure therapro rx

 

 

100mg glucoraphanin

2mg myrosinase

 

Epiceutical Labs Broco Elite Plus

 

 

Stabilized sulforaphane 10mg

Brocoli seed complex 700mg

 

Jarrow Broccomax

 

 

Sulforaphane glucosinalate containing myrosinase 30mg

 

Swanson Green Foods

100% natural concentrated broccoli nutrition

 

 

sulforaphane 400mcg standardized to 0.4%

 

Then I left out the ones that just said like broccoli powder, or that didn't list what was in them.  It seems like there is a big gap here, some are mentioned in micrograms and others in milligrams.  From what I've read only Broccomax and maybe Christine's product don't suck, and the rest don't have the prerequisite ingredients.

[ironfistx]

When we figure out some product is best we can concentrate on getting it for cheapest price.  Because if we're going to have to take 7 Broccomax per day that's like $3.

[WillNitschke]

That's not quite correct.  All crucifers contain glucosinolates and one of the molecules in this family is glucoraphanin.  The latter is the only one that produces sulforaphane.  Sulforaphane is classified as n isothiocyanate.

 

What is correct however is that all crucifers contain glucosinolates and all glucosinolates break down via myrosinase to produce an isothiocyanate.  Not all isothiocyanates have been researched for their health-promoting effects - and some actually are considered harmful (like goitrins that can be harmful to the thyroid)

 

Long story short:

 

1.  Glucoraphanin (a member of the glucosinolate family) --> sulforaphane (a member of the isothiocyanate family)

 

2.  Measuring glucosinolates is not useful as we dont know how much glucoraphanin is part of this.

 

3.  This is confusing when a supplement lists glucosinolates - and not glucoraphanin.  Is this a deliberate ploy by the manufacturer to hide a low glucoraphanin and therefore a low sulforaphane yield - or is it simply poor knowledge of the nature of sulforaphane yield?

 

Thank you again for the clarification. This information is very useful. You are correct, of course. I conflated glucoraphanin with glucosinolates in general, because silly me, after watching a 47 minute video produced by Dr Rhonda Patrick exclusively talking about Sulforaphane and its precursors, she listed on her video a list of vegetables high in glucosinolates and not the relevant sulforaphane precusors. Trying to absorb as much technical information as rapidly as possible, I did not notice that the plant list was not actually of direct relevance to the topic of the video.

The bottom line is if you're seeking 20-60mg of sulforaphane daily and eating a 350g of lightly steamed broccoli florets doesn't interest you, some kind of supplementation is required.
 

[WillNitschke]

Will, are you a scientist?  Because I am  - and I am really tiring of your snide and dismissive remarks and failure to read my detailed explanations to help you understand the science of sulforaphane, which in fact, is my specialty.  (my PhD thesis was on sulforaphane)

 

Is it because my company manufactures a sulforaphane-yielding broccoli sprout supplement that you assume that my contribution to this forum is just a ploy to sell product?  I have occasionally mentioned my product when a question from a member requires it - but surely, even you can see the greater part of my commentary on this forum is clearly to provide information to others seeking clarification. 

 

Would I have gone to so much trouble trying to help you understand what labels do and dont tell us - and how to determine the sulforaphane yield of a vegetable?  Would I have offered to chat to you by phone (since we are in the same country) to help clarify where your calculations are leading you to incorrect conclusions if I simply wanted to sell a product to one person?  Of course not!  A few sales of product as a result of this forum are neither here nor there to me.  

 

So, can we call a truce?  If you don't like my commentary, that's fine - but please just let it go.

 

No, I'm not a 'scientist'. I'm just a lowly engineer who knows how to apply reason and logic and point out poor arguments. I'm not critical of you personally, only if your arguments are poor. Had you written 'Sorry Will, you're confusing  glucoraphanin with glucosinolates in general" that would have done the trick. I think the problem here is this is your area of expertise, so you're not explaining things clearly in some cases, because you forget how much you know, compared to the little the rest of us do.

[WillNitschke]

What's the argument for simply purchasing, say, 1KG of broccoli seed, using a herb grinder to crush it periodically, and perhaps add some crushed brown mustard seed to it, in a smaller ratio? (To add a stable form of myrosinase to it.)

The reason why I ask is because that would allow one to create a 'supplement' for around half the cost or more of a manufactured supplement. I did some back of the envelope calculations and this approach would require 20g or so of crushed broccoli seed (= 53mg of sulforaphane), versus 6g of supplement. So the supplement companies are not just grinding up broccoli seed and pre-packaging it. They are extracting things out of the seed. If so, what? And is there any benefit to such extraction beyond just making the required quantity to consume smaller?

[GABAergic]

will, can you gather all your thoughts into one and just put it in a single post. i mean its not really bothersome, but its kind of unprofessional and inconsiderate for the rest of us to go through all your monologue in each post.

[WillNitschke]

will, can you gather all your thoughts into one and just put it in a single post. i mean its not really bothersome, but its kind of unprofessional and inconsiderate for the rest of us to go through all your monologue in each post.

 

Since you're not paying attention to the exchange, I can't help you. This is called a 'forum' where you seek information or make comments, then someone else responds in order to provide further information, which initiates further comments or questions.

[ironfistx]

Dang, who voted my post pointless?  You mean you don't like spending as tiny amount as possible on supplements?  Nice, I'll just get the cheap ones and you can buy the expensive ones.  There seems to be some people here who are missing the goal of getting the best supplement.  There are many broccoli supplements on the market and tons of them don't honestly contain the stuff we're after.  So, maybe it was a dumb idea to post it.  Why take all this time to learn about stuff only to not know which supplement to buy?  This thread is to figure out what product we actually need, we might as well have a discussion about that.  Currently people know which products not to buy.

 

Anyway, I like ChristineH and Will's posts.  +1 from me.

Edited by ironfistx, 26 May 2019 - 12:18 AM.

[ironfistx]

Can it be best to take these all at once?  So if you're going to take a bunch of pills do you do it all together?

[ChristineH]

What's the argument for simply purchasing, say, 1KG of broccoli seed, using a herb grinder to crush it periodically, and perhaps add some crushed brown mustard seed to it, in a smaller ratio? (To add a stable form of myrosinase to it.)

The reason why I ask is because that would allow one to create a 'supplement' for around half the cost or more of a manufactured supplement. I did some back of the envelope calculations and this approach would require 20g or so of crushed broccoli seed (= 53mg of sulforaphane), versus 6g of supplement. So the supplement companies are not just grinding up broccoli seed and pre-packaging it. They are extracting things out of the seed. If so, what? And is there any benefit to such extraction beyond just making the required quantity to consume smaller?

The reason they extract the glucoraphanin is that broccoli seeds contain a toxin called erucic acid.  When the seed is either extracted, the erucic is removed.  They degrade the myrosinase ernzyme firsts to prevent the glucoraphanin converting to sulforaphane, an unstable molecule.  If challenged about the lack of myrosinase, the manufacturers will tell you that a.) they add exogenous myrosinase, a new innovation you will find in BroccoMax - or that b.). your gut bacteria have myrosinase-like activity.  The problem is that no-one knows if their own microbiota contain species with this potential and also, even if optimal, you will get about 10% the conversion you get from an intact sprout which retains both the glucoraphain and the myrosinase4 in separate compartments which are activated when chewed, chopped - or a supplement becomes moist when ingesting.

Can it be best to take these all at once?  So if you're going to take a bunch of pills do you do it all together?

You mean a number of the capsules?  If so, yes - and better to take the optimum dose at the same time to reach the dose threshold for activation of Nrf2.

[ChristineH]

No, I'm not a 'scientist'. I'm just a lowly engineer who knows how to apply reason and logic and point out poor arguments. I'm not critical of you personally, only if your arguments are poor. Had you written 'Sorry Will, you're confusing  glucoraphanin with glucosinolates in general" that would have done the trick. I think the problem here is this is your area of expertise, so you're not explaining things clearly in some cases, because you forget how much you know, compared to the little the rest of us do.

Without wishing to be unnecessarily defensive, Will, if you look at the many answers I have posted on the topic over time, you will see that all the information is there.  As I said recently, I don't want to continue to repeat the same information.  Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed people would go back through the archives.

[WillNitschke]

Dang, who voted my post pointless?  You mean you don't like spending as tiny amount as possible on supplements?  Nice, I'll just get the cheap ones and you can buy the expensive ones.  There seems to be some people here who are missing the goal of getting the best supplement.  There are many broccoli supplements on the market and tons of them don't honestly contain the stuff we're after.  So, maybe it was a dumb idea to post it.  Why take all this time to learn about stuff only to not know which supplement to buy?  This thread is to figure out what product we actually need, we might as well have a discussion about that.  Currently people know which products not to buy.

 

Anyway, I like ChristineH and Will's posts.  +1 from me.

 

I didn't reply to your post because I don't have enough information yet to feel confident my opinions will be of value to others here. I'm still in the process of learning this stuff and that involves reading a lot of papers and also making lots of mistakes. Obviously the 'best' supplement will be a combination of value for money for price per dose of the active ingredient, and having some level of confidence in the QA and credibility of the supplement maker. The complicating factor with sulforaphane is trying to arrive at an educated guess in terms of what combination of precursor ingredients are 'best'. I'd still prefer to go with some combination of natural food sources in combination with a supplement that is actually delivering something close to what is being promised.

[ChristineH]

Will, I'd suggest that if you want to rely on food, you might be best to grate daikon radish onto your source of cruciferous vegetable.  We have no way of quantifying sulforaphane yield of course, partly because Australian broccoli vegetable seems to be quite low in glucoraphanin.  We tested this in the lab at UQ Brisbane.  We also tested  powdered mustard seed to see if we could increase the sulforaphane yield.  We could not.  Although we didnt pursue this further and didnt publish these findings, what I did find is that imported culinary herbs and spices are typically gamma-irradiated at a very high kGy dose.  I suspect this annihilated any potentially unwanted 'bugs' that came with the product but also inactivated the myrosinase.  Hence, I think you are best to use fresh daikon.  I cant provide a dose but an educated guess would suggest you add about 1/4 cup packed down grated daikon to your raw or cooked crucifers.

[ChristineH]

christine, i dont think, or tried to in a any way to be rude to you. and you didnt really point out specifics where i might have been. but i think i understand you are defensive because i was asking you questions at the same time another member was bothering you with his and he was coming off as a bit arrogant which might have set you up and therefore caused you to ignore me completely until you thought i was bothersome enough to respond. but yeah, i just wanted some help with your product, i was just curious about it but nevermind now. i do this a lot btw where i review and compare products and its not just you.

OK - and I notice that this forum doesnt always make it clear as to which message a response applies.  But checking back on your original message, I am curious to know how you plan to test a supplement.  Surely, only lab data can do a comparison.

[ChristineH]

btw i checked your website again, you are selling Glisodin (again quite high in price) but ive taken this stuff for months before for its proposed benefits and after i finished it, at about 3 months use, ive experienced absolutely no benefits for it claims to do. even after i did blood work to see if its something i cannot feel, there were nothing of interest to report.

IM NOT BEING RUDE, I AM JUST MENTIONING THIS.

I wish to be informative as possible for everyone to benefit some way or another. perhaps people who sell this will take a note too, hopefully.

 

Whether GliSODin makes a difference to one's well-being or not will depend on whether your antioxidant enzymes (SOD, GPx and Catalase) are functioning optimally.  If they are, you will not see a change.  GliSODin also upregulates the anti-inflammatory cytokine, Interleukin-10.  None of these changes produce biomarkers that are readily measured outside a research facility.

 

Have you ever done nutrigenetic profile to see if you have inherited variations in these genes?  We notice that in those people who carry SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) in these genes, the response to GliSODin is noticeable - it's as if the missing piece is added to the puzzle.

 

I'd also suggest that you check the label of the product you are taking as (here we go again!), some U.S. supplements purporting to contain GliSODin actually dont.  GliSODin was developed by a French company, IsoCell NUTRA and if their logo is not on the label - or reference to the company, the product is not the genuine nutrigenomically-active material.  This is typical of the cheapest versions.  (And no, I don't regards your comments as being rude - useful  information)

[ironfistx]

Will you tell me how you arrived at 8 Broccomax per day?  The bottle is here and it says been demonstrated in vitro to yield approximately 8mg of sulforaphane her PR capsule containing 30mg of SGS.  But that would be 3 capsules to get 20mg, not which quantity you specified.

[ChristineH]

Can you please post where I wrote that?  Were we discussing prostate health where the clinical trial used 60 mg daily?  That would approximate 8 capsules x 8mg per cap.  I cant comment again until tomorrow as I am about to go out.  I'm keen to clarify this as something is clearly not right.

[GABAergic]

OK - and I notice that this forum doesnt always make it clear as to which message a response applies.  But checking back on your original message, I am curious to know how you plan to test a supplement.  Surely, only lab data can do a comparison.

 

im the lab rat. i can test and compare various supplements how they work if they work at all. i have been doing it for 10 years and im usually able to tell if one is not as good as the other although i can still make a mistake as im not a machine. not everyone is interested in giving samples which is fine. but  do you think that someone is going to just spend that much money on a blind eye, just any product being promoted on here?  isnt there another way to promote your product ? usually people go by amazon reviews but so many of them are coming out fake now. its a nightmare to find good reliable product that isnt too expensive. yours might be, but its the price thats likely not going to allow most people to experience it.

[ChristineH]

Well lab rat, as I've said before, I'm not on this forum to promote a product.  Our company's major thrust is in educating clinicians in nutrigenomics and that automatically leads into scientific discussions of bioactive molecules (like sulforaphane) that are nutrigenomically-active.  Once the facts are in place, sulforaphane is quite capable of standing on its own feet to validate what we teach - and the products we sell.  Clinicians of course have a price ceiling but when one assesses cost according to mg sulforaphane yield, this completely changes the perception of cost for a product with a high sulforaphane yield.  Clinicians look at the dose-response and compare it with the dose shown in clinical trials to obtain a measurable effect.

 

So, I really couldn't care less about Amazon reviews.  Although my book, "Switched On" is available as an eBook on Amazon, I have zero interest in putting our physical products on such a platform.

 

I know this is probably not what you are used to because most supplements are vigorously competing for the retail dollar.  Why do we target clinicians?  Because the greater part of my career before I went into research was as a clinician in Nutritional Medicine.  I know the criteria used by clinicians to judge the quality of a product.  More importantly, regulations prevent us from making any health-related claims to consumers - on the label, in marketing material.  We are very happy with our existing marketing approach -  and strange as it may seem to you - and perhaps others on this forum that I really am NOT here to sell product; just to clarify and inform.   

 

What annoys me most is that there is such a lot of mis-information in relation to broccoli sprouts and especially to sulforaphane.  Some of the mis-information has been a deliberate 'smoke and mirrors' marketing campaign to confuse consumers.  There is no such molecule as 'sulforaphane glucosinolate' - this is a marketing term for glucoraphanin, presumably to have a reader think that the product supplies sulforaphane; it does not - unless the myrosinase enzyme is also present.  The addition of myrosinase in a fairly recent innovation which only partially solves the dose-response problem.

 

If you are seriously ill and have come across articles linking sulforaphane to a serious disease, you, especially have a right to expect that the product you buy actually delivers what it 'appears' to deliver.  But the labels provide a confusing picture and this is borne out on this forum where members are studying labels in order to find a cost-effective supplement that does actually yield the bioactive.

 

[WillNitschke]

Will, I'd suggest that if you want to rely on food, you might be best to grate daikon radish onto your source of cruciferous vegetable.  We have no way of quantifying sulforaphane yield of course, partly because Australian broccoli vegetable seems to be quite low in glucoraphanin.  We tested this in the lab at UQ Brisbane.  We also tested  powdered mustard seed to see if we could increase the sulforaphane yield.  We could not.  Although we didnt pursue this further and didnt publish these findings, what I did find is that imported culinary herbs and spices are typically gamma-irradiated at a very high kGy dose.  I suspect this annihilated any potentially unwanted 'bugs' that came with the product but also inactivated the myrosinase.  Hence, I think you are best to use fresh daikon.  I cant provide a dose but an educated guess would suggest you add about 1/4 cup packed down grated daikon to your raw or cooked crucifers.

 

What does 'low' mean? Low relative to what? Foreign broccoli crops? Broccoli seed or sprout extract supplements? Something else?

And what did you test? The entire plant including the stems? Or the florets only?

The published papers I've seen are reporting 89mg of glucoraphanin / 100g of broccoli florets. Is that what you consider 'low' or something else?

When you tested powdered mustard seed, what seed type did you use? Because from the published research I've read, yellow mustard seed has very little myrosinase in it. The only game in town is brown mustard seed. And when you say you tested 'powdered mustard seed' do you mean you ground and tested the resulting powder from the seed, or do you mean you just acquired already grounded powder meant to be added to cooked dishes, that might have been sitting on a warehouse shelf or inside a shipping container at room temperature for many months? All these factors appear to be very important...

With regard to fresh daikon what is your basis for a 1/4 cup? What's the ratio of myrosinase to glucoraphanin you're working off? 90% glucoraphanin to 10% myrosinase? Something else? What's the myrosinase content by weight for daikon?

So while I appreciate your input, nothing you're telling me is actionable yet, but I have my fingers crossed.




 

[ChristineH]

What does 'low' mean? Low relative to what? Foreign broccoli crops? Broccoli seed or sprout extract supplements? Something else?

And what did you test? The entire plant including the stems? Or the florets only?

The published papers I've seen are reporting 89mg of glucoraphanin / 100g of broccoli florets. Is that what you consider 'low' or something else?

When you tested powdered mustard seed, what seed type did you use? Because from the published research I've read, yellow mustard seed has very little myrosinase in it. The only game in town is brown mustard seed. And when you say you tested 'powdered mustard seed' do you mean you ground and tested the resulting powder from the seed, or do you mean you just acquired already grounded powder meant to be added to cooked dishes, that might have been sitting on a warehouse shelf or inside a shipping container at room temperature for many months? All these factors appear to be very important...

With regard to fresh daikon what is your basis for a 1/4 cup? What's the ratio of myrosinase to glucoraphanin you're working off? 90% glucoraphanin to 10% myrosinase? Something else? What's the myrosinase content by weight for daikon?

So while I appreciate your input, nothing you're telling me is actionable yet, but I have my fingers crossed.




 

Will, you have set a huge 'assignment' here and as I'm chasing deadlines at the moment, I cant really take the time to answer all of these questions.  What are the most pressing issues you want to address at the moment?  

 

Here's one answer for now.  I've attached the glucosinolate data for broccoli.  This comes from UQ and the paper is from SA McNaughton "Development of a food composition database for the estimation of dietary intakes of glucosinolates, the biologically active constituents of cruciferous vegetables"

 

Keep note that this is an estimate of glucosinoltaes (GLS) - not glucoraphanin (GRN).  The GRN is an unknown proportion of the GLS, so the GRN content will be significantly less than shown here.

 

Of equal importance is the fact that samples vary widely in their content of GLS and GRN, so that when you buy broccoli, you dont know which end of the range you have bought.  If you use their median for 62mg GSL/ 100 g, the figure will be markedly less than the 89 mg you quoted.  (Is this data fro a reliable source?)

 

As for florets vs stems, the florets are typically several times more concentrated than he stems.  I also suggest avoiding stems as they tend to accumulate the agricultural chemicals.

 

When we tested samples in the lab, it was florets only and bought in a Brisbane supermarket brought into store from the markets that day - and the values we obtained were about 10% less than those listed in the USDA database.

 

A few points for you to think on for now perhaps?

[GABAergic]

so christine, any special discounts on your product for the members of this lovely forum? because honestly, i dont think most of us here can afford it.

[ironfistx]

Can you please post where I wrote that? Were we discussing prostate health where the clinical trial used 60 mg daily? That would approximate 8 capsules x 8mg per cap. I cant comment again until tomorrow as I am about to go out. I'm keen to clarify this as something is clearly not right.

Considering I'm on my phone I won't know the post number but that was on page 3.

That quote

Which is the Thorne product? I can comment if you like so you know if you are getting a product delivering adequate sulforaphane. BroccoMax claim 8 mg per capsule, so 8 of these gives you around 24 mg daily. The lower level for the available clinical trial data shows the starting dose at around 18-20 mg daily.

[ironfistx]

So it's 3 or 7 Broccomax per day?

Interesting that it tastes good.  Typically a whole broccoli sprout has a very strong broccoli taste. That's why most people prefer to take the capsule and not the powder.

 

For a 'extract' product such as BroccoMax, it is not a sprouted product.  It is made by a process that extracts the glucoraphanin precursor from the seed.  One might assume that components with the strong taste are part of what is removed during extraction.  

 

I'm not sure.  It tastes like broccoli though and I quite like the flavor.

[ChristineH]

So it's 3 or 7 Broccomax per day?

 

I'm not sure.  It tastes like broccoli though and I quite like the flavor.

 3 or 7 BroccoMax for what?  They yield 8mg SFN per capsule.  Not sure what you are asking...Dose for what?

Edited by ChristineH, 29 May 2019 - 11:13 PM.

[WillNitschke]

You can search utube for "sulforaphane dr rhonda patrick" and watch the entire video. It is worth your time. Many of the key trials are mentioned there, including the anti-prostate cancer study.

 

There seem to be two groups in general who want to take sulforaphane on a regular basis. The extreme group who are prepared to screw around for hours a week growing their own fresh broccoli sprouts and then consuming what looks like gallons of that stuff. The other group just want to drop a pill.

 

If you can safely assume, say, 6mg a day, and you want to be in that sweet spot of 40-60mg of sulforaphane daily, or at least regularly, then you'd need to drop up to 10 of these supplements a day... and probably at least 6. If you're doing that 3-4 times a week, maybe not so bad. Of course, you're hoping that the supplement you've purchased hasn't been sitting on a warehouse shelf for 6 months so maybe the bio activity is half what's on the label or worse. So unless you've buying directly from a supplement maker, you can't really be sure what the bio activity is going to be.